woj

Companies pay top $$ to attract top talent... to most people it seems ridiculous that some CEO is making $100M, but in reality that's <1% of many companies revenues... you could triple CEO's pay, and it would still have less effect than raising tax rate by even 1 or 2%...

30 years ago you needed skills and expertise too, but now the business world is more complex, more global, the competition is more fierce, the companies are bigger, etc

while the skills of blue collar workers are exactly the same, you screw on or weld things on now exactly the same way as you did 30 years....

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Minte

That's crap. Nowhere have I suggested I owe no one anything. Next week we are hosting over 200 people at our plant for 2 days for the meals for children. We are donating space, shipping and a real decent financial contribution to package over 1/4million meals for children in Haiti. If you would like to contribute, let me know.

3 weeks ago we hosted an end of summer event for the community. Over 1500 people were on the lawn at the plant. We paid for fireworks, live music and soda's for the kids. Adults had to pay for their own beer.

I support little league teams, special olympics cancer drives..and a long list of other charitable organizations. And I can tell you this.. As a small business owner I am not at all special. Obviously a lot of my friends own their own business and 100% of them donate a lot of their time and money to those less fortunate.

Because you saw some greedy asshole businessman in a movie doesn't mean it's reality.

Relentless

Lebon James gets paid 100s of Millions of dollars for throwing a ball into a hoop. That's a talent he was born with and a skill he has worked very hard at improving. However, if you are 5' 4, have average sized hands, an ordinary jump height and stamina etc... you can train day and night working your ass off (perhaps working even harder than he does) and you will never be able to play NBA basketball.

Telling someone with an IQ in the low 100s, poor parents, a weak public school education and no successful mentor to 'go start his own company and become a millionaire' is like Lebron telling you to go practice dunking a basketball. They can work at it just as hard as you do, they won't succeed. They can work at it much harder than you do... they still won't succeed at it. They lack the aptitude.

So, what shall we do with them?

One big anonymous mass grave?

If you don't want to kill them all off... we ought to find what they can do and help them reach THAT potential, so they can contribute to the best of their ability. When I go to the supermarket they have men and women with down syndrome and other disabilities put my groceries in bags for me. I have never once thought to myself 'wow, that dude is overpaid, look how easy his job is...I bet he has no idea how this supermarket makes payroll ever week! He probably doesn't even pay federal income tax!'

When you encounter people less able than you, you can either look down on them for being less able... or you can be thankful you are more able and take an interest in helping them to contribute what they can to society, even when it is considerably less than you will. That guy with down syndrome at the supermarket has as much to do with my ability to dunk a basketball as 99% of Americans had to do with our economy melting down. It wasn't labor unions, welfare recipients or kids on food stamps who caused our current financial mess. Being annoyed that they get food stamps is as silly as being annoyed at my grocery bagger for not running a hedge fund of his own.

At the supermarket I tip the men and women who put my groceries in bags for me. I may be the only one who does that. The sense of pride in their eyes when I say a simple 'thank you' and give them a few dollars that acknowledges their effort without castigating them for their lack of aptitude is worth every penny.

Unless you are Steve Jobs there are people in this world more capable than you. It is nice when they acknowledge your contributions matter, even though theirs are more significant in the grand scheme of things. It costs very little to respect people and gauge their significance based on their honest best effort rather than their aptitude. When you find tasks for them suitable to their aptitude they can become very profitable parts of society for everyone. When you denigrate them, you weaken society for the sake of nothing more than your own hubris. I am sure my groceries cost more because they hire people to put food in bags instead of having customers just do it ourselves.... but the total cost is still much less than having those less able people left jobless and purposeless.

When Lebron James holds press conferences and tells people how rough it is to be a basketball player making hundreds of millions of dollars with a guaranteed contract to throw a ball in a hoop, it doesn't come off well. A guy making millions who tells a grocery store bag packer that 'he can too if he just opens up his own small business and grows it into a fortune 500 company' comes off sounding just as disingenuous.

You will always be the kid with down syndrome compared to some people and you will be Lebron James compared to others. Unless we are going to start digging those mass graves, we ought to find a way to all get along prosperously.

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Rochard

I don't mean to be picking on you... But I'm guessing that all of the above is a write off, right?

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TheSquealer

He could just reinvest in his own business, not be taxed on that money, create more jobs and be called a greedy asshole.

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Rochard

BlackCrayon

i bet if you were audited they would disallow a number of things you are claiming.

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Relentless

I don't think you understand what a 'write-off' is or how it works...

If someone donates 3 million dollars to feed starving children and 'writes it off' they don't get 3 million dollars back from the government. A write off doesn't diminish their generosity... it just means we don't throw a tax them on money they gave away as a kicker on top of their decision to be generous. If someone buys something for 10K and 'writes it off' they don't get 10K back from the government.

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BlackCrayon

You're right but then why do people say companies won't hire if taxes are raised/aren't lowered when its such a miniscule % of overall profit? To me its just another line of BS to sell the middle class into voting for things that benefit them.

And I disagree with things being the same, there aren't many of the kinds of jobs you mentioned left. Just take machine shops for example, 30 years ago it was all or mostly by hand. Now CAD is more or less the standard and you need to learn these programs before you can use them.

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Minte

No, and it still has to be paid for.

Jman

Welcome to Quebec, looks like we're fucked

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...28-150755.html

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Rochard

I bet you I have an accountant who tells me what I can and cannot do.

I work from home, and thus I can write off my home office and thus a portion of my power, etc, for the house. If I recall correct the exact IRS rule says this "office" cannot be a "spare guest room" or have a bed in it. I have a guest room already, and I do not have a bed in here so I'm good to go.

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KillerK

Not really, you have RocSoft who after reading his views I would never hire, if he's this bitter about business owners, fuck having him work for me. Hell, I won't even do business with companies he works for currently, if they hire someone who hates business owners so much, why would I spend money with that company, he might think I don't deserve to make a profit on what things I am working on. He also feels we business owns didn't build it.

Rochard

Bull fucking shit.

You said you donate to "little league teams". One of my good friends is fund raiser for our sports league. Our sports league is a non profit charitable organization. Of course you write it all off.

You would be an idiot not to.

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baddog

On this we agree. Probably not the percentage.

Life is not fair.

Minte

Your question was, Do you write it ALL off? And the answer was no. And it still is NO. Like someone already told you. You understand about taking a deduction for a bedroom. If you think that I or anyone else gives to charity so we can write it off,you are simply wrong. The deductions allowed are only a percentage of the donation.

If I was a greedy bastard I would be much better off keeping every cent we make. There are a lot of deductions available to a "C": corp that build equity. Charitiable contributions don't build equity. They build goodwill in the community.

Rochard

I don't hate business owners. I am a business owner. I'm just saying we need to pay our fair share.

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Rochard

I understand this. I do this myself.

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Relentless

When you have a discussion about the fairness of federal income tax policy, that statement cuts both ways. If we were living as individuals in the wild that could be the end of the analysis... fortunately we are not. We are part of a thriving society, that even on it's worst day is infinitely better than any of us could ever do completely on our own. Part of that societal agreement is that the least among us will benefit from being lumped in with the rest of us.

When one of us is very ill, disabled, less capable or unlucky... the rest of us see to it that the unfortunate one is not left to deal with it all on their own. That is the basic premise all societies are built upon. In some generations your lineage will benefit much more, in other generations it will put much more into the system than it gets out. I'll never get back all that I have contributed so far... but given a choice, I would much rather be capable of contributing more than I get back rather than being someone else less fortunate who is unable to do so.

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Minte

And my position is, I already pay much more than my fair share.

If Warren Buffet feels he doesn't pay his fair share, he is certainly welcome to write out as many checks to the IRS as it takes to make him feel good. To date. I haven't read anywhere that he has done it.

Relentless

They should also build self-esteem much more than any lambo ever could.

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Relentless

You would be better off working to get the 30%ish they do take spent well, rather than focusing solely on making sure it remains not a penny more. The country would be much better off as well.

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Minte

The truth is, that about the only time I even think about any of this is when someone else brings it up(which isn't very often), or I log into GFY. The rest of my time is spent doing the things I really like doing. Like working.

Next week I am away on 2 trips and it's a certainty that tax,obama and elections will be the furthest thing from my mind.

Zoxxa

I am impressed you have kept this conversation going so long, like I mentioned earlier they will try their hardest to make you look like a "blood thirsty animal raping the country". How dare you host thousands of people to fun events where most is paid for & you write a portion of it off, lol

I use to go by InsaneMidget on boards, we use to chat back in the porncity days many years back. Wouldn't mind getting in touch and chat some time again. Info in the sig.

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Sly

I remember you, what have you been up to?

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Rochard

And yet Warren Buffet pays a lower percentage of tax than his secretary does... How is that fair?

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Zoxxa

When you drive through a pay toll you believe millionaires should have to pay more?

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Relentless

Your views might change if you thought about it more. Our country is being taken over by bloodless coup... and it isn't poor people masterminding the assault on our democracy. I think you know that. It's worth a few hours a month to write a letter, speak to a legislator, or help change the minds of people who still don't see it happening right under their noses.

Enjoy the time away. Hopefully it's some vacation, and not all business.

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Zoxxa

I remember a Sly, but you weren't with TopBucks. Were you with PhatServers? Memory isn't the greatest.

I have never left, always been around. I married NaughtyJenn, had a couple kids, worked for people, worked for myself. Done well, done awful, done well again...blah blah.

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baddog

Communism did not work then, it won't work now. Stop looking for handouts.

You're just trolling, right?


Sounds to me like he is taking tax write-offs; and maybe it is because interest income is taxed at a lower rate? I hate paying tax on money just because I put it in the damned bank.

Sly

Yep, that's me. A few moons ago.

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Relentless

Tolls are based on number of axles and curb weight.... because an 18 wheeler full of durable goods uses the bridge more than a coupe. The value of the coup doesn't matter, the amount the vehicle used the road is what matters. Federal tax policy should be exactly the same way. Hence a national sales tax and a low flat income tax.

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Zoxxa

I was looking for a quick example, I didn't put that much thought in to it.
I have to get back to work and let you big boys hash this all out.

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zuffa

Im not sure, but I'm fairly certain we are on the same page.

We won't hire people that hate us either.

But beyond that, what I'm saying is Minte is right & as far as big business goes, we will never let taxes force us out of business or even into uncomfortable waters. We will simply move or expand into foreign markets leaving fewer jobs in America.

Relentless

Communism is a system that requires everyone getting the same share regardless of their contributions. I think that is a bad way to do things. Making sure everyone has food, shelter, healthcare and clothing at a basic level while others have private jets and lambos is not communism, it's basic morality. I put in more than I will ever get out, it just doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother some. I kinda like the idea of everyone being able to eat or sleep in a bed... even if they lack the aptitude to make it happen.

On that we agree. A national sales tax makes much more sense. You ought to be taxed for buying something, not for having enough money to buy something.

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Minte

It's been a long time IM... great to hear from you again.

Phoenix

this thread sure is entertaining thanks minte..lol

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Zoxxa

I'm good with a hammer, can I have a job?

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Paul Markham

Spot on for most of the West. The rising economies aren't creating just new wealth, they are taking it away from old wealth.

When any costs reach a level where it can be cheaper or a better return elsewhere. Customers and businesses move. Most businessmen have employed tax accountants since they were invented to minimise taxes, if that means moving it off shore. It goes offshore.

Some won't for the odd 5%. If tax havens are tax free, how low does it have to be in the US to keep those who can move cash to havens?

Now we have to think of morality. Should a company or businessman making millions in countries not tax havens, from people who have to pay full whack. Be able to move their money off shore and still be a citizen of the country and run for the Presidency?

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Paul Markham

Not true. Go see a modern factory with robots doing it.

It's clear that some here simply don't care about those less able. They will when they become one of them.

Besides that, I love your post.

Who should stop getting handouts?

Large corporations, farmers, arms manufacturers or people who would starve if they didn't get them?

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Minte

Certainly. Capitalism is the American way. Unless of course, this current adminstation gets it's way.

tony286

Really? How many bankers went to jail ? None. They change the credit rules but give the banks 12 months to fuck the people some more. Gives the banks tons of money no fucking rules at all.
The market is at 13k
Please explain how its the end of capitalism because he wants to put the taxes back what they were under clinton.
Also why didnt Bush make the the tax cuts permanent he had the congress and senate.If they were so so important to the future?
Capitalism worked just fine when the tax rate was 90 percent. Now many didnt pay that but they paid more than they pay now. Thats why we had the finest public schools in the world, built amazing highway systems.

TheSquealer

And to think the USA used to be a nation that celebrated success. Now everyone's babbling about "your fair share", which is not only a highly subjective notion (ironically, much like "Hope" and "Change") but also remains conspicuously undefined as that is of course, to the benefit of those who'd prefer to point fingers rather than accept any personal accountability.

The USA used to be a place where people would only think "i need to make more", "i need to do better" and so on, and is now a place where everyone is standing alone in a self important fog of narcissism completely confused as to why no one is making their lives better for them.

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Rochard

TheSquealer

How much money went to banks from Obama in the form of bailouts with EXACTLY NO RULES AT ALL? How many billions?

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

tony286

Yep thats when workers made a living wage they could support their families with and their jobs werent shipped in bulk to overseas for shareholder value

tony286

how can you say he wants to end capitalism if he was giving money to the banks?

TheSquealer

Not surprisingly, you missed my point. This nation was never about "a living wage" - it was about a dream, about more, about being better, about building companies and industries about everyone striving to better themselves financially. You think like an employee, which is why you'll always be trying to "make a living wage"

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Rochard

TheSquealer

Again, dodging the point. Obama gave BILLIONS to banks with no rules... you know, the same thing you were suggesting was the problem under Bush. In fact, those fucking clowns drafted a 1000 page bill and voted on it the next morning, with Obama letting everyone know they don't have time to read it and the vote happened without anyone even knowing what its contents were.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

tony286

If you want to speak and debate like adults Im all for it. You want to get nasty. I stop chatting.

Paul Markham

Ask the same question to the guys buying in the shops.

Capitalism is fine, until you spend yourself into debt. See the debt of Western countries to understand how it's bad. Also it ONLY if you're not importing much of the goods you're buying.

That was back in the days when success was things being made in the US, people paying their share, people not hiding money in tax havens, outsourcing jobs. Their are different kinds of success, much of it is hated. Think before you answer that one.

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Minte

I remember the deductions that were available back then. We could deduct everything even remotely business related. 90% rate was not even close to that. If you made $200k, 20 years ago you kept more of it then than you do today.