Socks

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...-a-908963.html

Now ain't that a bitch... Getting really bad for Obama...

_Richard_

damn the germans are pissed off

Markul

yea that's probably not going to happen, we can hope, so he can get extradited to the US

dyna mo

it's going to get much worse for him when some of this new legistlation passes requiring transparency on prism and the fisa court.

obama ratified that several years ago.


good, fuck him.

MaDalton

won't happen

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DWB

Only die hard American patriots have a problem with Snowden. The entire rest of the world thinks he did the right thing and should not be punished.

Rochard

What I don't understand is this has been going on since 1940. All nations read and hack each other.

In Germany they call it "Bundesnachrichtendienst". Wikipedia says:

It depends heavily on wiretapping and electronic surveillance of international communications. It collects and evaluates information on a variety of areas such as international non-state terrorism, weapons of mass destruction proliferation and illegal transfer of technology, organized crime, weapons and drug trafficking, money laundering, illegal migration and information warfare. As Germany?s only overseas intelligence service, the BND gathers both military and civil intelligence.

So, it spies on other countries. Every country does this.

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dyna mo

complete bullshit.

i'm surprised you would actually think this.

Socks

And we're finding out just how fast, loud and far reaching that small % of people's voices can travel. It's almost like they have this tool that lets them drown out all of us normal people in favour of what they think...

dyna mo

snowden has nothing to fear by facing his accusers. he should have done his resarch on previous leakers, he would have found that they are not punished in any significant way.

america has shown its ability to differentiate these sorts of cases. it is snowden who is bullshittting the world.

Socks

C'mon man, such an oversimplification with no consideration of the known details.. There's a big difference between them having a team of people bugging a lamp or plant so they can hear a room... This is incredibly large scale.. The difference between killing a dictator with a sniper or nuking his whole city to kill him.

They always list the things we'd be happy with them dealing with (like the list you just said) and we should "just trust them" that they don't use any other capabilities they have that we as the public might find offensive. Don't worry, they have it all under control...

But the fact we needed Snowden at all to tell us just have far their overreach went shows us that they're obviously not trustworthy at all.

We know you and your family don't mind living in a glass bowl shitting in glass toilets for your overlords to inspect your level of wrongdoing. But is it okay if I don't want that for me and my family?

Socks

The law doesn't work based on right and wrong, it works based on applying the highly technical nature of the laws to situations. There are thousands of cases of injustice served.

For example. He used the word "PRISM" which was previously unknown. Now other countries can go through their own espionage logs and try to find people using that term, etc.

So for that reason alone he could spend the rest of his life in prison.

Whether he was right or wrong, he was "wrong" to say that word by law, and he will go to jail.

dyna mo

that's your opinion and is not based on facts of how leakers are viewed and handled in america.

nevertheless, this is your thread, your mind is made-up, americans are not capable of doing the right thing in this case and consequently injustice will prevail.

and you will certainly get many anti-american sympathizers agreeing with you and your thread.

but facts are facts, this is the 4th case of espionage in the usa and the 3 previous cases were handled with leniency, but nevermind that. this is gfy.

MaDalton

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TheSquealer

Espionage as it pertains to politics, has much less to do with "who does what' as much as it has to do with "who fucked up and got caught"

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SplatterMaster

I haven't seen any polls, but I would wager most Americans really don't give a fuck about Snowden one way or another. It's the rest of the world that's making such a big deal about him. And I find that funny as hell

dyna mo

i also have to add, snowden lost any chance at having certain sympathy in the usa when he chose to take the top secret intel to non-usa aligned, authoritarian countries.

if he had stayed here and his actions belied his words, based on history, he would have not been significantly punished, he would be receiving awards and getting swamped in pussy.

JFK

Yup, I agree, Considering and Doing, are 2 different things. They are just yanking Bamas chain

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klinton

seeandsee

why they spy their friends? bad obama

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SlammedMedia

It's amazing how his actions are considered illegal, when all he did was rat out the US government for doing something illegal.

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dyna mo

what's so funny? the facts?



Thomas Drake is one of four individuals in the history of the United States who has been charged specifically with “willful retention” of “national defense” information under 18 U.S.C. § 793(e).

This particular portion of the Espionage Act was created in 1950 during the Second Red Scare, as part of the McCarran Internal Security Act.[25]

Anthony Russo and Daniel Ellsberg were the first to be prosecuted for the “retention” of what came to be known as the Pentagon Papers which Ellsberg gave to The New York Times, eventually resulting in another landmark Espionage Act case in 1971, New York Times Co. v. United States. The prosecution of Russo and Ellsberg was dismissed in 1972 because of government misconduct.

The second prosecution was of Samuel Loring Morison in 1985, a Navy analyst who sold satellite photographs to Jane's Defense Weekly; he was later pardoned by President Bill Clinton.
The third was the American Israel Public Affairs Committee case in 2005 (United States v. Franklin, Rosen, and Weissman).[4]

On June 9, 2011, all 10 original charges against him were dropped. Drake rejected several deals because he refused to "plea bargain with the truth". He eventually pled to one misdemeanor count for exceeding authorized use of a computer;


He is the 2011 recipient of the Ridenhour Prize for Truth-Telling and co-recipient of the Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence (SAAII) award.




again, america has a history of sorting these out. snowden chose to not handle it that way, he won't get the same treatment.







/

dyna mo

what was illegal that he revealed?

DWB

Spying on other countries.

While it's done on all sides, it is still illegal.

dyna mo

care to link me to the law that was broken because i can't find it. or hell, just paste it here and i will stand corrected.

mikesouth

I read through the whole snowden thing and listen to the news and such and its very difficult to know what to believe and what not to...but

The way I see it if you are so embarrassed when you get caught doing something that you shouldnt have been doing that you start resorting to smears and angry rhetoric then you probably aren't the good guys
How you interpret that is up to you but suffice it to say I don't see any cause to arrest Snowden for anything.

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_Richard_

SlammedMedia

Anyone's personal data obtained by PRISM can be shared with the government without that persons knowledge.

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dyna mo

the data collected via prism is not illegal to gather and share with the government. the fisa court has decided that.

dyna mo

what's so funny?

SlammedMedia

If you're a fucking terrorist.

But it is illegal to share and for the government to use your information and my information, without our knowledge.

You don't seem to understand what the issue here is and why Snowden did what he did.

It's not about protecting terrorists and catching them before they do something catastrophic.

It's about protecting society in general from the government potentially spying on EVERYONE.

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SlammedMedia

What the government is potentially doing, no one else can do unless they have a warrant.

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dyna mo

i don't seem to understand? pfft. i am simply telling you the facts. it seems you are the one refusing to understand.

did i say i support it?

fuck no.

i am telling you how it is, the secret fisa court determined it is not illegal, now go bury your head in sand or try and understand that for yourself.

SlammedMedia

I'm pretty sure they decided it's not illegal to share possible "terrorist" information. But it's illegal to share EVERYONE's information.

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MaDalton

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...-a-909013.html

just because YOUR law might not have been broken, it doesn't mean OUR laws were not broken.

and even if some people might disagree but for us our laws mean something and are not inferior to your laws.

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_Richard_

how long was Manning in solitary confinement?

dyna mo

again, the fisa court decided otherwise.
as the article states, this is a precedent setting event. there are no international laws surrounding this. nevertheless, you have a german law there and i feel that your country should pursue that re: both usa and the uk on the data collecting. ftr, the data was collected and to be presented to the fisa court for a warrant to look at it.




manning's situation is entirely different and i explained that to you in another thread.

simply put, you fail at understanding the differenc between a military court and an active serviceman and a public court and a private contractor.


again, i am simply providing the historical facts, you can deny them all you want, i know you have an incessant need to hate america and anything that gets in the way of that is upsetting. nevertheless.

_Richard_

you know what 'pretrial punishment' is?

now now, i don't need to hear what you think of me, what you think i hate, or anything else you think other than the single question that i have asked.

kthxbai

dyna mo

the other thing to consider is how obama is reacting/responding to the reveal. i am not posting this as a "if you do, we can too" example, i am posting it to suggest that it makes sense that germany is also snooping on usa and this entire thing can blow up into a big deal or more likely, all nations involved will decide it's better to drop it or the whole thing will turn into a massive shit storm for all nations involved.

:::::::::
"The United States government will respond appropriately to the European Union through our diplomatic channels, and through the EU/U.S. experts' dialogue on intelligence that the U.S. proposed several weeks ago," the DNI office said in a statement. "We will also discuss these issues bilaterally with EU member states. While we are not going to comment publicly on specific alleged intelligence activities, as a matter of policy, we have made clear that the United States gathers foreign intelligence of the type gathered by all nations."

dyna mo

again, the historical facts provide you an answer, if you would just be open. i am providing that here for those who do choose to be open to it.


thomas andrews drake, the nsa leaker who did the exact same thing as snowden just a few years ago- giving top secret documents to a newspaper reporter, spent 0 days in prison.

none
zero
nada
zilch

_Richard_

i think you had trouble reading what i wrote

to clarify:

1. I asked you if you knew what pretrial punishment was

2. I asked you to solely answer the question

I.. can't see where you answered the question.. i might be having a case of the tuesdays tho.. can you point out where you answered what i asked you

dyna mo

so what? ok you got me. what now? you win. congrats. gotcha of the week.

i'll remind you of the olive branch i extended to you recently, you let me know when you are done and we can sort out our differences and not have to deal with this sort of silliness.

epitome

I think from my posting history it's evident I accept a lot of things but even I think this is too far. Snowden is not a criminal, but instead someone letting his fellow Americans know that some shady shit is going on by those they elected to represent them.

_Richard_

Captain Kawaii

QFT -
Most Americans are too anesthetized on McDonalds and pharma to care. Our gov usually claims no laws were broken cause they are the ones writing 1000 pages for a bill that no one reads. Our reps publicly admit they do not read them. Easy to slip "Merikans the mickey when no one is reading what they are signing/voting on.

dyna mo

there are petitions, new legislation, dialogue, etc surrounding this. a lot of people do care. i don't think it's accurate to wav off *most* americans with a casual comment like this, even the article in the post you are quoting goes on about how this is an unprecedented event.

not to mention i think it is more than fair to ASSume germany snoops on partners as well so they don't want to turn this into an international keystone cops.

dyna mo

there's always a middleground, you let me know when you're ready to meet there.

theking

Pig...fucking...shit...pervert.

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crockett

Of course Bradly Manning might disagree with you..