Rochard

Snowden has revealed that Australia uses it's embassies to "intercept phone calls and internet data in neighbouring countries".

All countries do this.

Full article here

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pornmasta

/me bet it's not now

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sperbonzo

I wonder if the aussies also spy on their own citizens without real oversight also....




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bronco67

So why is everyone taking everything this guy says on faith?

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Rochard

Everyone else is. I"m just jumping on the bandwagon.

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Rochard

I have yet to see any proof of anything yet. Snowden released what he claims is a Power Point Presentation that details what the government is doing. Setting aside the fact that any eight year old can make an identical presentation, we have yet to see any proof it was ever used illegally in the US. In fact, the power point presentation itself seems to tell us all of the servers are located outside of the US.

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_Richard_

Richard.

http://thestateweekly.com/sen-feinst...ng-and-courts/

read this, and come back and tell us you do not have proof.

DamianJ

Faith?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...G4SVhQf4qICwBA

Tom_PM

Of course every country does it and always has.

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crockett

Australia is one of the partners with prism. Along with Canada, the Uk and France I think. One of the first leaks announced whom was partnered with the US on this spying.. So of course they are doing it because they are sharing the info with the US..

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dyna mo

five eyes alliance

UKUSA is a multilateral agreement for cooperation in signals intelligence between the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

The alliance of intelligence operations is also known as Five Eyes

Emerging from an informal agreement related to the 1941 Atlantic Charter, the secret treaty was renewed with the passage of the 1943 BRUSA Agreement, before being officially enacted on 5 March 1946 by the United Kingdom and the United States. In the following years, it was extended to encompass the three Commonwealth realms of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Other countries, know as "third parties", such as West Germany, the Philippines and several Scandinavian countries also joined the UKUSA community.

Much of the sharing of information is performed via the ultra-sensitive STONEGHOST network, which contains "the Western world's most closely guarded secrets". Besides laying down rules for intelligence sharing, the agreement formalized and cemented the "Special Relationship" between the UK and the USA.

Due to its status as a secret treaty, its existence was not known to the Prime Minister of Australia until 1973, and it was not disclosed to the public until 2005.

On 25 June 2010, for the first time in history, the full text of the agreement was publicly released by Britain's National Archives, and can now be viewed online. Shortly after is release, the seven-page UKUSA Agreement was recognized by Time magazine as one of the Cold War's most important documents, with immense historical significance.

Rochard

This right here is the problem. Everyone thinks there is "ovewelming evidence" of wrong doing. And you think you have the links to back up. But if you look over the information very closely....

One of your link says the following:

On Thursday, the Washington Post published a new scoop sourced from the trove of secret files turned over by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. The Post?s report outlines how the spy agency has breached privacy rules thousands of times per year since 2008, in one case snooping on calls made in Washington after the U.S. area code 202 was mistakenly used instead of 20, Egypt?s international dialling code.

(link)

This is not the NSA spying on US citizens. This was a case where incorrect data was pulled because of a single keystroke error. This was reported to Congress before Snowden was a household name.

Someone else the other pointed me directly to the news site that had the power point presentation. It had zero proof of any wrong doing by anyone, no proof it was used against US citizens (with or without a warrant), and any eight year could put together a similar power point presentation.

Everyone seems to think the NSA is spying on US citizens, yet no one can provide any proof.

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Rochard

This kind of stuff was going on long before this agreement.... It's been going on since the beginning of time.

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dyna mo

you're typing like i don't know that. in fact, you're typing like you just figured this out and are letting the rest of us know.

dyna mo

crocket had referred to the program, i backed up his post with more details on the program, it wasn't like i just realized * oh wow, entities work together! *

DamianJ

Keep drinking the koolaid, Rochard.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_te...americans.html

Rochard

This is the same exact article I just quoted, that I found from your news link.

The first paragraph talks about a mistake that was made AND reported to Congress.

Here's from that article:

In one ?incident? in 2012, according to the newspaper, the NSA unlawfully retained 3,032 files that it had been ordered by the FISA court to destroy.

What exactly does this mean? The NSA failed to delete files? So it was okay for the collection method, okay for the NSA to have them, but not okay that the NSA failed to delete them when ordered so? The only violation here seems to be that they failed delete files when ordered to do by a court. No information on what data was collected or how, or if that data was collected illeally.

In addition, a May 2012 internal NSA audit counted 2,776 incidents in the preceding 12 months of unauthorized collection, storage, access to or distribution of legally protected communications.

The NSA is investigating itself looking for illegal action. It discovered over two thousand "incidents". These are most likely accidents (such as the 202/20 area code mishap) or agents pushing the rules or end up violating laws without knowing it.

Why isn't Congress holding talks about this "so called illegal activities"?

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AllAboutCams

HAHAHAHA i know what all you bastards are doing.

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_Richard_

DamianJ

Maybe you didn't read it? It is full of the evidence you claim to be unaware of.

Here's the evidence of the phone call action on US citizens:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...%20body%20link

But the whole article is talking about the meta data on US citizens that they captured.

I guess because people like you think there is no evidence, despite there being a metric shit ton of evidence.

Or they are embarrassed about being caught spying on their own citizens and hope enough Fox News fans will roll over like you are.

Rochard

Again, first paragraph....

The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

Seems like whatever they are doing is perfectly legal.

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pr0phet

They just call it legal now

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_Richard_

perfectly legal

so why is everyone going on like it's not?

why is there senate hearings and so forth?

do you think the government is going to come out, and publically admit 'yea, we broke the law, jail us for the rest of our natural lives'

why, are you so insistent, of convincing everyone else of your own delusion?

DamianJ

You said there was no evidence of the NSA spying on US citizens. There is. I wasn't debating if it was done with a court order or not. I said it was happening, you said there was no evidence.

But if you want some evidence of the illegal spying, then try this

"The document below is the full text of a brief article from the Oct. 12, 2011 edition of the Top Secret “SSO News,” an NSA electronic newsletter. It includes the first confirmation – and the only known details – of an Oct. 3, 2011 ruling in which the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court held that the NSA was using illegal methods to collect and handle the emails and other internet communications of American citizens "

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/pag...isa-court/393/

georgeyw

So rochard If the us aren't doing any of this, why have they threatened Russia to get snowden and gone apeshit to get the guy?

I spose they may not like the cut of his jib.....

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dyna mo

snowden is out of the loop on the documents by now. in fact, he handed everything over to wikileaks quite a while back, as i understand it.


tons of links and quotes in this thread alone that show the fisa court = kangaroo court. nsa snooping is *legal* because the fisa court is hamstrung and has no real authority to condem is as illegal. consequently, nsa can act with impunity.

if only our government was currently functional, not dysfunctional, some legislation would have passed getting this handled and done, over. instead, the nsa will cover it's shit better and put more shit on lockdown.

Rochard

I read your article, and.... It's still not there.

Fienstein says "the 9/11 attacks could have been prevented had the NSA surveillance programs been alive beforehand". Great. But at no point in time does she say in that article violated the law or even targeted Americans. You are reaching and accepting "surveillance programs" as "illegal activity" or "spying on Americans". If a known terrorist suspect in Pakistan or Yemen is talking on the phone with someone in the US, Homeland Security wants to know why. They might tap the phone call overseas (perfectly legal as US law does not apply in Pakistan or Yemen) or they might get a warrant.

Once again, another link to another article that someone claims provides proof when it really doesn't. It doesn't even say it's targeted at Americans.

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_Richard_

damn, you're right.

We better notify the world there is nothing illegal going on, and everything is A-OK

btw, you're talking to a foreigner about terrorism

welcome to the list.

don't worry tho, they'll just tap your phones and everything else from canada.. so it's perfectly legal

Rochard

You don't think Canada and the UK and most other countries do the same thing? How many countries do you think are piggy backing on the same system the US runs?

I believe this is a large part of what they do, and I believe it is legal. At the very least this explains why when I do a trace route from California to the east coast, it is routed through Canada.

I think in the 1960s or 1970s it was discovered the CIA (NSA?) was tapping phones in Europe, and on occasion phone calls would involve someone in the US. They ended up in court over it, and at the end of the day it was decided that US law did not apply in Europe and it was perfectly legal. It's very much like what we are doing in Cuba - it's a neat way to get around the law.

I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying if they are doing it might just be perfectly legal.

Snowden handed out copies of a power point presentation and one of the pages had locations of the servers included. All of them were outside of the US. I think this is intentional, because it allows them to get around US law.

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DWB

I seriously doubt the Russians took what he had to say on faith. Doesn't look like the US Gov does either.


It's not like any of us are "in the loop" anyway. He obviously has enough "proof" to get Russia to open their doors to him, and that should tell you all you need to know. Because if his info wasn't worthy, or new, they wouldn't grant him asylum. What tiny bit is released to the media is irrelevant.

DWB

Sure they do, but they don't have people with documents proving they actually do it. Thinking someone does something vs proving they do, are two different things. But in terms of spying, I assume every country does everything they can to the best of their ability. But until it's confirmed, it's just all a bunch of conspiracy theories.

TheSquealer

The primary function of every embassy for any country is for monitoring (political, economic etc), intelligence gathering, analysis and to provide a base for intelligence operations/operatives. It's not like developed nations create massive, often fully walled in, intensely secure compounds to process visa applications.

It's insane that the world is so naive about such common and commonly known things.

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Rochard

TheSquealer

Russia allowed him to stay because 1) it allowed them to continually and fully interrogate a US intelligence contractor with a shitload of information and or knowledge. 2) they took anything he had, assuming he left Hong Kong with anything after the Chinese finished with him. 3) it makes them look strong and the US/Obama look weak as he's been doing at the UN and at every opportunity, nonstop. 4) It makes Putin, a man known for his oppressive ways, look like he supports freedom and democracy... while costing him absolutely nothing at all politically..... Or you were going to argue that every 3rd rate banana republic shithole that despises the US, suggested he'd be granted asylum, did so because their motivations were also pure and noble? ;)

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Rochard

dyna mo

wait till there's one of those fancy drones circling over every city 24/7/365, the big ones with the super fucking massive computers that streams live & records everything.

dyna mo

frontline
rise of the drones

http://video.pbs.org/video/2326108547/

Rochard

Once again, another link to another document that doesn't prove anything.

This is a summary of an eighty page OPINION (Jesus fucking Christ, it uses those exact words in the document itself: "opinion") of a Judge that orders the NSA to stop a method of data collection unless it makes certain changes. It doesn't say anything illegal was done, it doesn't say anyone needs to be brought up on charges, it doesn't say the NSA needs to remove this method, only that changes need to be made.

Then... This wasn't something Snowden exposed, this wasn't something the NSA was caught doing, this was... Something the NSA discovered during an internal audit, and then brought to the court asking for an opinion. The NSA asked for this to be reviewed, and the court ordered certain changes to ensure it was legal.

At this point, this is no longer what the NSA is doing or who is spying on who. This is about the herd mentality that jumps on the bandwagon on accepts something as fact when it might not be. This is the perfect example. Damian accepts this document as proof positive that the NSA has broken the law, but he didn't even other to read the document. You all read the headlines but never the document - it says right there in the second sentence that this is an eighty page opinion (that was REQUESTED by the NSA).

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Rochard

We've had helicopters for years...

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crockett

Spying on govts and select targets has gone on forever.. Spying on mass populations has only taken place under non free states. Do you really want to have the US in the same company of north Korea, China, Nazi Germany ect..ect.. Where people had/have no privacy and have to be scared of what they say and do, because the govt spies on them?

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Rochard

Everyone is saying that the US is spying on it's own citizens, and everyone has links to prove it, but they don't provide any proof at all.

Damian just gave me a link saying it proof and it was an article about an eighty page opinion - that the NSA asked for in order to ensure it was complying with they law.

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klinton

pimpmaster9000

yes yes the US gov would never ever ever resort to underhand shit

"By the mid-1980s, this spending became a scandal when the Project On Government Oversight reported that the Pentagon had vastly overpaid for a wide variety of items, most notoriously paying $435 for a hammer,[1] $600 for a toilet seat.[citation needed]"

the US gov is the most honest honest honest place in the world! how the fuck can snowden even think these things?

sperbonzo

I notice that you keep harping on the "legal" aspects, and how no one has been convicted of doing anything wrong. I'm not sure what you think the 4th amendment means, or whether people have a right to not have government officials reading their mail, listening to private calls, or searching through their private possessions without a well defined and court reviewed reason, but now I'm assuming that, prior to the mid 1800s, you would have said that there is nothing wrong with slavery since it was "legal", judges approved of it, and no one was going to jail for it.




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pornguy

It seems very odd to me, how much info he was able to walk out with. Did anyone watch this guy and ever search him. or did he just email it all to himself.

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DamianJ

When you serve in the military, do they embed a chip in your brain that makes you think there is no way at all that the US government can ever do anything bad?

TampaToker

on a side note anyone know what website Snowden is working for now?

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DamianJ

theguardian.com

seeandsee

yeah i know that without fucking snowden

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Rochard

I'm not saying the US Government is honest. I'm not even saying the NSA isn't spying on us. I'm saying that everyone has jumped on this bandwagon, and when I ask for proof I can never get it.

I asked for proof in this thread and Damian gave me a summary of a 80 page opinion that the NSA requested, which didn't even say they broke any laws but merely asked for a change in policy.

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