Business "That's How They Getcha!" Cams/Dating TOS fails

[Forkbeard]

A decade ago, when I was making good money selling monthly porn subscriptions on a revshare basis, I utterly swore off promoting cams and dating. In some cases this was because I didn't like the ROI on the traffic I was sending, and in other cases I found too many shady terms in the relevant terms and conditions. Ultimately I concluded (again, this was ten years ago) that I was wasting my traffic sending it to those industries.

Well, times change, and we all know that monthly porn subscriptions aren't what they used to be. But cams and dating continue to thrive. So I've begun a sort of systematic exploration of the offerings, to see if I can find a place why my small volumes of high-quality traffic can make me some money.

So far, my impressions aren't good. This thread will document my research process, or at least the parts of it that lead to dead ends.

Given the fact that I will be sending small test volumes of traffic, I'm looking for a program that will pay out in reasonable minimum amounts ($100 is fine, $50 is better) using convenient and non-shady payment methods (PayPal is awesome, a check on a US bank is fine, bank transfers are dubious because of cost) with no penalty for low-volume affiliates. Given my revshare roots and philosophy, I'm always looking for some way to share in recurring business, and thus I despise any sort of takeback provisions that steal my revshare on past business for any reason. Eating my revshares from historic traffic because I'm not currently sending traffic or generating new sales is NOT acceptable.

For you youngsters, my thread title "That's how they getcha!" is a tagline from an old show called Dr. Katz, Professional Therapist. Here's the relevant bit on YouTube.

Please note: This is a business thread, not a "spam me with your refcode" thread. I will be criticizing and making fun of the cams and dating sites I discuss here. If you rep a program, feel free to contact me about it elsewhere. But you would be ill-advised to mention or promote it here unless you are 100% certain your terms meet my weary, jaded, and cynical high standards. (Hint: They probably don't.)

[Forkbeard]

Let's meet the first contestant, shall we?

PlayWithMe, from Medly. (Cams offering)

Medly and I go way back ... all the way back to 2001. From the very beginning they got marked as "shady" in my book because they advertised a variety of pay-per-click and pay-per-signup programs with a "retroactive convert to revshare" policy that they applied very swiftly to anybody whose pay-per-click or free/cheap signups weren't making them more money than revshare would. That didn't bother me in the specifics -- I was always a revshare guy -- but they were very deceptive about it in the early days. And my thinking about non-revshare programs is that by offering to pay for traffic before the monetization is complete, the program is making a confident wager about its long term ability to monetize your traffic. "Your traffic is going to make us so much money, we'll bribe you now with up-front money so that you'll sell us your rights to the revenue stream for less than those rights are worth." Thus, in my mind, it's cheating to make that bet, try and fail to monetize the traffic, and then come back and retroactively switch the affiliate to revshare, which is what these guys used to do. GFY used to be filled with complaints from dismayed new affiliates who wracked up hundreds of dollars in PPS revenue, only to log into their affiliate stats and see it all gone because their free signups didn't immediately convert to paid ones. So that's how they got on my shady list in the early days of the 21st century.

How about today? You have to click through three succeeding pages to find out that the "up to 35% on sales forever" that they advertise prominently actually translates to 20% unless you send more than five sales a day. Not awesome, but an industry-standard way to present the affiliate offer.

However, it's when you get to that third page that things start falling short of my admittedly high standards.

First, I noticed that the incorporated-by-reference main Medly TOS has a clawback for retaining funds from low-activity accounts. The amounts and timelines seem reasonable, though:

The Commission Payment Floor is currently $50.00... If you have not earned or accrued referral fees in at least the amount of the Commission Payment Floor in the six (6) months prior to any given monthly payment period, or if your Account is suspended as provided herein, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion without notice to you, and without waiver by us, to charge you an Account maintenance fee in an amount up to $50 per six (6) month period. The account maintenance fee charged may be deducted and offset against any unpaid Commissions.

More troubling is the general Medly policy of allowing themselves unlimited traffic leaks. "Not all paid products or services appearing on a given FFN Site entitle you to a Commission." Back on the rules page for PlayWithMe, they make this even more explicit: "3. Orders for services or products other than a Gold or Silver level membership, or any orders following a downgrade from a Silver or Gold level membership to a standard level membership, are not compensated under this program."

No disclosure is offered to affiliates as to what other levels of membership may be offered to PlayWithMe traffic, or what "products and services" may be offered to that traffic other than gold or silver memberships. 20 percent of all sales would be a reasonable offer on small traffic. 20 percent of a fraction of all sales, with no limits on uncompensated cross sales or upsales? No. That's not a commercially-reasonable offer. That's a pay-per-sale sort of provision, and this is not a pay-per-sale program.

That's how they getcha. Next!

[ITraffic]

your time would be better spent building traffic them niggling over a few percentage points here and there. just my opinion.

[Forkbeard]

Next I looked at the dating offers in the currently-pinned thread from Together Networks. I haven't given them the full fine-toothed-comb suspicious read yet, because of the glaring inconsistency I found between the FAQ on their front page and their TOS. Compare these quotes:

4. WHAT AMOUNT DO I NEED TO EARN BEFORE I CAN WITHDRAW MY MONEY?
The minimum amount for withdrawal is $50 for all payment methods except bank transfer, which is $100. If you do not reach this value within a month, then the entire sum is carried to the next month.

We will pay you any Commissions earned monthly, provided that your account is currently greater than $350. Accounts with a balance of less than $350 will roll over to the next month, and will continue to roll over monthly until $350 is reached.

Although this could be flat and deliberate lies in the front-page FAQ, it's much more likely to be an error; either the front page FAQ or the TOS is probably out of date. Still, until changed the TOS is what they would fall back on, and $350 is way too much.

That's how they getcha. Next!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by ITraffic

your time would be better spent building traffic them niggling over a few percentage points here and there. just my opinion.

My whole career has been built on quality before quantity. Obviously I haven't been in this business since 2001 without building traffic at every opportunity. But nobody gets a ton of my traffic until we have several years of good reliable business history between us. If a program won't offer fair and honest payment on the sales from small traffic sent in irregular bursts, why on God's green earth would I contemplate sending them higher volumes?

[Forkbeard]

That's all for today. I'll be updating this thread in the next weeks as my research continues.

[ITraffic]

because there is like 10 cam sites to promote and the same with dating. it's not like back in the paysite days where you had hundreds of worthy ones to choose from. test them all and go with the ones that make the most money and actually pay. i know people that stay away from programs because of some purported board "scandal" or some weird tos thing but those are one of the few programs left that actually convert and pay every time. then again, you are free to spend your time as you wish.

[TheSquealer]

Either you have traffic and you matter... or you don't and you don't. End of story. Payouts and terms can always be negotiated if you have quality traffic and aren't just another clown talking out his ass - like 99% of people here.

Only a broke and deranged lunatic would spend time focused on picking apart a programs TOS and searching for grammatical inconsistencies or contradictions rather than being productive and making sure he's earning the very highest earnings per unique visitor.

[Forkbeard]

In my experience if their TOS tells you up front that they're not going to pay you, they are definitely not going to pay you. That's not a "weird TOS thing", it's a warning.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

In my experience if their TOS tells you up front that they're not going to pay you, they are definitely not going to pay you. That's not a "weird TOS thing", it's a warning.

Every single TOS in the history of this business has been heavily weighted towards the program. It doesn't mean anything at all.... unless you are a silly twit that spends his time worrying about hitting a monthly 50.00 minimum, rather than working towards having the volume to negotiate your own terms.

[StinkyPink]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Either you have traffic and you matter... or you don't and you don't. End of story. Payouts and terms can always be negotiated if you have quality traffic and aren't just another clown talking out his ass - like 99% of people here.

Only a broke and deranged lunatic would spend time focused on picking apart a programs TOS and searching for grammatical inconsistencies or contradictions rather than being productive and making sure he's earning the very highest earnings per unique visitor.

Why? So that the company in question can just take his hard earned cash due to their fudged TOS? Makes no sense.

[bns666]

Forkbeard, those TOS details are more or less usual with all programs, so get used to them, just wait how shady some practices appear in the long run when you send them consistent traffic on monthly basis, don't bang your head over TOS, stick with the programs which make you monies and ditch the ones which don't.

Also you have to be aware that you're re-selling their product for a commission in the first place, it's all targeted how you will make more money for them, not the other way around.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by StinkyPink

Why? So that the company in question can just take his hard earned cash due to their fudged TOS? Makes no sense.

Ok... using cams and dating again as an example. THERE ARE TONS OF RELIABLE, WELL ESTABLISHED & WELL KNOWN PROGRAMS TO USE.

End of story. Use them. Why invest time in thoroughly unproductive behavior.

At the end of the day, this is not about any TOS. This is about immature, paranoid and distrustful or mentally ill people wasting their time fretting over stupid shit rather than making money.

You will NEVER see a person with real traffic or volume spending time on dumb shit like this or even giving it a second thought.

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Ok... using cams and dating again as an example. THERE ARE TONS OF RELIABLE, WELL ESTABLISHED & WELL KNOWN PROGRAMS TO USE.

End of story. Use them. Why invest time in thoroughly unproductive behavior.

Is that a FACT ? ..... your backup data doesn't allow me to evaluate that... OP has supplied data analysis

[StinkyPink]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Ok... using cams and dating again as an example. THERE ARE TONS OF RELIABLE, WELL ESTABLISHED & WELL KNOWN PROGRAMS TO USE.

End of story. Use them. Why invest time in thoroughly unproductive behavior.

At the end of the day, this is not about any TOS. This is about immature, paranoid and distrustful or mentally ill people wasting their time fretting over stupid shit rather than making money.

You will NEVER see a person with real traffic or volume spending time on dumb shit like this or even giving it a second thought.

Exactly what the OP is going to prove. One way or the other. Also, likely he is doing this with these companies you call well established. A waste of time would be going through the ones that are not.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by bns666

Forkbeard, those TOS details are more or less usual with all programs, so get used to them.

You must not have read my OP.

I know that most of the cams and dating programs are shady and have shady TOS. The purpose of this survey (after years spent ignoring them all) is to see if there are exceptions. This thread is me looking at them one by one and going "nope, this one is no exception." And sharing that analysis here.

If you're telling me there's no good program with fair TOS out there, I'm inclined to believe you. But I'm still gonna look.

[Forkbeard]

Despite his efforts to be as offensive as possible in his criticism of my little research project, TheSquealer does make one good point. TOS really don't matter with good programs. By definition, a good program is going to pay you honestly and they aren't going to pick nits (or even enforce their own terms) against a webmaster that's sending them lots of sales. I have programs that have been paying me reliably for a decade, and I couldn't give a shit less what their TOS says, because they're going to keep paying me.

What TheSquealer clearly doesn't understand is that in cams and dating I've got no way to know which programs are like that, if any. And in my experience in other parts of the adult industry, examining the TOS really is a useful way of weeding out the programs that aren't going to pay reliably. Most people who are going to screw you actually say so in the fine print, which they rely on you not reading.

And if there's a company out there that really does make it a priority to pay affiliates every dime that the affiliates have coming, they usually make it a point to say so in their affiliate materials. It might be a lie, but at least it's a place to start.

[StinkyPink]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Despite his efforts to be as offensive as possible in his criticism of my little research project, TheSquealer does make one good point. TOS really don't matter with good programs. By definition, a good program is going to pay you honestly and they aren't going to pick nits (or even enforce their own terms) against a webmaster that's sending them lots of sales. I have programs that have been paying me reliably for a decade, and I couldn't give a shit less what their TOS says, because they're going to keep paying me.

What TheSquealer clearly doesn't understand is that in cams and dating I've got no way to know which programs are like that, if any. And in my experience in other parts of the adult industry, examining the TOS really is a useful way of weeding out the programs that aren't going to pay reliably. Most people who are going to screw you actually say so in the fine print, which they rely on you not reading.

And if there's a company out there that really does make it a priority to pay affiliates every dime that the affiliates have coming, they usually make it a point to say so in their affiliate materials. It might be a lie, but at least it's a place to start.

I understand too how this goes. While I am no longer an "affiliate" per se, when I was starting out I was sending little bit here little bit there to many programs, some stats were crazy bad as were some practices. So when I did actually have some decent traffic, I would not even send it to the sites that jerked me around when I sent them "trickles".

[Mediamix]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Please note: This is a business thread, not a "spam me with your refcode" thread.

I had some problems with DatingFactory, and they still didn't pay me after I complained here... But.. They are still in my book as the best affiliate dating platform in this business. I've got a decent explanation from the staff and sometimes that is all you need to keep the trust. Their minimum payout is 100 Euro/Dollar.. I don't promote these guys myself, but I've got some referrals.. I'm almost at the payout level now and I'm sure they will pay me. Because they are good people.

Most webmasters that complain about not getting paid are sending bad traffic or have a fraudulent way of doing business..

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Mediamix

Their minimum payout is 100 Euro/Dollar. I don't promote these guys myself, but I've got some referrals.. I'm almost at the payout level now and I'm sure they will pay me. Because they are good people.

Rochard is a name I trust (within reason) mostly because he joined this board two months before I did and has always been solid in his public persona here. Faking business respectability for thirteen-plus years would be a lot harder than just being respectable, so it counts for quite a bit even though we haven't (to my knowledge) done business, except for maybe some link trades back in the day.

I don't have a problem with a clearly-disclosed 100 minimum, though it's maybe a little steep. And it's significant to me that Christiana Scolaro gave you advice on how to get your money, rather than just doing what you asked and silently eating the money. Going the extra mile to pay out a sub-minimum account on closure would be the zealous commitment to paying affiliates every dime they earn that I'm really looking for, but that kind of fiduciary zeal is rare in this fallen world. Trying to get you paid within the rules is sufficient, and respectable.

[The Porn Nerd]

I run paysites and offer cams and dating inside my 84 Members Areas. So the traffic is relatively small but also 'targeted' (to some extent). Here's MY problem with cams and dating as a business model for the affiliate vs. paysites for the affiliate:

With cams/dating the affiliate really has ZERO idea how much the Customer actually spends. That's why we get paid on intial signups (and all the fun little tricks that go along with them, like trials and upgrading and converting blah blah). Once a cam or dating Customer is inside the cam or dating site they basically POOF disappear in terms of how much they spend and you, the affiliate, knowing about it.

With paysites when someone joins you get the sale (and rebill), end of story. Sure, there may be Upsells in the MA that you, the affiliate, do not get a piece of but this is, at best, ancillary income (not the main moneymaker).

So there's my problem with cams and dating Programs. How the fuck do I know how much a Customer actually spends? You say he spent $x but maybe he really spent $xxx. Again, how would I know?

Trust, in this business and with that business model, is not something I trust. LOL

[StinkyPink]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

I run paysites and offer cams and dating inside my 84 Members Areas. So the traffic is relatively small but also 'targeted' (to some extent). Here's MY problem with cams and dating as a business model for the affiliate vs. paysites for the affiliate:

With cams/dating the affiliate really has ZERO idea how much the Customer actually spends. That's why we get paid on intial signups (and all the fun little tricks that go along with them, like trials and upgrading and converting blah blah). Once a cam or dating Customer is inside the cam or dating site they basically POOF disappear in terms of how much they spend and you, the affiliate, knowing about it.

With paysites when someone joins you get the sale (and rebill), end of story. Sure, there may be Upsells in the MA that you, the affiliate, do not get a piece of but this is, at best, ancillary income (not the main moneymaker).

So there's my problem with cams and dating Programs. How the fuck do I know how much a Customer actually spends? You say he spent $x but maybe he really spent $xxx. Again, how would I know?

Trust, in this business and with that business model, is not something I trust. LOL

While I understand what you are trying to say, I see no difference in your two examples.

Except that yes, an upsell is not main income for porn sponsor, but it is income... I am sure the same goes with the cam/dating sponsors as well.

What I mean is that affiliates really never know how much their customer spent while clicking your ads either... One thing I do know... the affiliate doesn't know for fact he's not getting a cut of his customers upsells with cams/dating... but they do know for fact (mostly cause you just stated so, but also because while some sponsors may pass the buck on upsells, many do not) they will not be getting cut of (most) sponsors (or MA) up/cross sells.

[Forkbeard]

There are good revshare sponsors out there who do in fact track and reimburse affiliates for their share of every dime the referred surfer spends.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by StinkyPink

While I understand what you are trying to say, I see no difference in your two examples.

Except that yes, an upsell is not main income for porn sponsor, but it is income... I am sure the same goes with the cam/dating sponsors as well.

What I mean is that affiliates really never know how much their customer spent while clicking your ads either... One thing I do know... the affiliate doesn't know for fact he's not getting a cut of his customers upsells with cams/dating... but they do know for fact (mostly cause you just stated so, but also because while some sponsors may pass the buck on upsells, many do not) they will not be getting cut of (most) sponsors (or MA) up/cross sells.

Well, for one thing the amount of revenue I get from all my upsells combined would barely amount to an iced cappucino at Starbucks. But aside from upsells - which I do not know if cam programs offer or not since I have never joined any as a Customer nor have I ever spent a single penny on a cam girl or show - my point was the Customer could be spending thousands of dollars with a cam company and the affiliate would never know. He's SUPPOSED to know, in theory, but.....LOL

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

There are good revshare sponsors out there who do in fact track and reimburse affiliates for their share of every dime the referred surfer spends.

Maybe there are but I highly doubt if affiliate sends surfer to Site A and surfer joins Site A, then that now Member joins Site B inside Site A's Members Area, the affiliate is getting a cut of sale to Site B. As I said, maybe some are but none of the Programs I promote seem to do so.

Let's put it this way: I send Memberships, as an affiliate, to about 15 Sponsers and I never, ever, ever see any more revenue than the 1 or 2 random sales I send. Shrug.

[pimpmaster9000]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

So there's my problem with cams and dating Programs. How the fuck do I know how much a Customer actually spends? You say he spent $x but maybe he really spent $xxx. Again, how would I know?

if you are serious about promoting cams then you get a friend to join and give him money to spend and see if it shows up...you are the affiliate and you get part of the money back...you test from time to time with different people...if you never catch them shaving you then you have a reasonable chance of promoting them and not being ripped...

[StinkyPink]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Well, for one thing the amount of revenue I get from all my upsells combined would barely amount to an iced cappucino at Starbucks. But aside from upsells - which I do not know if cam programs offer or not since I have never joined any as a Customer nor have I ever spent a single penny on a cam girl or show - my point was the Customer could be spending thousands of dollars with a cam company and the affiliate would never know. He's SUPPOSED to know, in theory, but.....LOL

This is why I stated "While I understand what you are trying to say".

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by StinkyPink

This is why I stated "While I understand what you are trying to say".

Ahh sorry, I obviously did not unerstand what you were trying to say. LOL

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Let's meet the first contestant, shall we?

PlayWithMe, from Medly. (Cams offering)

Medly and I go way back ... all the way back to 2001. From the very beginning they got marked as "shady" in my book because they advertised a variety of pay-per-click and pay-per-signup programs with a "retroactive convert to revshare" policy that they applied very swiftly to anybody whose pay-per-click or free/cheap signups weren't making them more money than revshare would. That didn't bother me in the specifics -- I was always a revshare guy -- but they were very deceptive about it in the early days. And my thinking about non-revshare programs is that by offering to pay for traffic before the monetization is complete, the program is making a confident wager about its long term ability to monetize your traffic. "Your traffic is going to make us so much money, we'll bribe you now with up-front money so that you'll sell us your rights to the revenue stream for less than those rights are worth." Thus, in my mind, it's cheating to make that bet, try and fail to monetize the traffic, and then come back and retroactively switch the affiliate to revshare, which is what these guys used to do. GFY used to be filled with complaints from dismayed new affiliates who wracked up hundreds of dollars in PPS revenue, only to log into their affiliate stats and see it all gone because their free signups didn't immediately convert to paid ones. So that's how they got on my shady list in the early days of the 21st century.

How about today? You have to click through three succeeding pages to find out that the "up to 35% on sales forever" that they advertise prominently actually translates to 20% unless you send more than five sales a day. Not awesome, but an industry-standard way to present the affiliate offer.

However, it's when you get to that third page that things start falling short of my admittedly high standards.

First, I noticed that the incorporated-by-reference main Medly TOS has a clawback for retaining funds from low-activity accounts. The amounts and timelines seem reasonable, though:



More troubling is the general Medly policy of allowing themselves unlimited traffic leaks. "Not all paid products or services appearing on a given FFN Site entitle you to a Commission." Back on the rules page for PlayWithMe, they make this even more explicit: "3. Orders for services or products other than a Gold or Silver level membership, or any orders following a downgrade from a Silver or Gold level membership to a standard level membership, are not compensated under this program."

No disclosure is offered to affiliates as to what other levels of membership may be offered to PlayWithMe traffic, or what "products and services" may be offered to that traffic other than gold or silver memberships. 20 percent of all sales would be a reasonable offer on small traffic. 20 percent of a fraction of all sales, with no limits on uncompensated cross sales or upsales? No. That's not a commercially-reasonable offer. That's a pay-per-sale sort of provision, and this is not a pay-per-sale program.

That's how they getcha. Next!

This is one of the best explanations of the plusses of revshare

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Either you have traffic and you matter... or you don't and you don't. End of story. Payouts and terms can always be negotiated if you have quality traffic and aren't just another clown talking out his ass - like 99% of people here.

Only a broke and deranged lunatic would spend time focused on picking apart a programs TOS and searching for grammatical inconsistencies or contradictions rather than being productive and making sure he's earning the very highest earnings per unique visitor.

It takes a lot less time to do due diligence on the front end than chase your money later.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

It takes a lot less time to do due diligence on the front end than chase your money later.

This!


I've been burned too many times by assuming that some program with a good bro-rep would have reasonable terms. Over time I've learned that the single most important criterion from an affiliate perspective is "Does this program have a bone-deep commitment to paying its affiliates? Or is it always on the lookout for excuses not to pay?"

The programs that are eager for ways to pocket your money will virtually always telegraph this in their TOS.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

This!


I've been burned too many times by assuming that some program with a good bro-rep would have reasonable terms. Over time I've learned that the single most important criterion from an affiliate perspective is "Does this program have a bone-deep commitment to paying its affiliates? Or is it always on the lookout for excuses not to pay?"

The programs that are eager for ways to pocket your money will virtually always telegraph this in their TOS.

I can respect someone who reads the fine print. I do not know why you would be called out for that. I am shocked at how few people read the terms.

[striver]

Hi all. I'm fairly new to this Affiliate game. I'm looking for trusted mobile traffic networks to run a few CPA adult dating offers. Can anyone put me on the right track.

[mopek1]

Thanks for this thread Forkbeard.

I appreciate you sharing your findings and analysis with us.

It's great to have a genuine business thread here again.

[Barry-xlovecam]

There is always some slippage with customers making new accounts and the customer rather than the referral's customer "member name (join name, nickname)" being the apportioning criterion.

If that worries you that much: Using your own domain with a white label makes sense as all sales from your domain, and for that matter, currently, from any website domain or white label domain in the entire xlovecam/xlovecash network made by your customers are credited to your account.

As far as affiliate contract (or agreement) they are contracts of adhesion. They are either fair or riddled with loopholes so I can understand your apprehension.


xlovecash

The cam business is no more shady than any other -- if you were an investor with Lehman Brothers or a stockholder in GM or Chrysler you would get my meaning.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

The cam business is no more shady than any other -- if you were an investor with Lehman Brothers or a stockholder in GM or Chrysler you would get my meaning.

OK I am going to assume you were high or drunk when you made that statement. LOL Wall Street has SOME "regulations" and there is SOME recourse if you get fucked in the asshole. But with porn/cams? Come on now. LOL

Here's a Pro tip when it comes to cams: to keep ANY cam company "honest" (regardless of their TOS) you MUST rotate your ads/cam Programs. Why? Because the moment you start sending consistent traffic the Program will....well, we know what they will do. So swap 'em out every 3-4 months. THEN when a Rep contacts YOU and goes "WTF man, you were sending sales...." you can negotiate better terms to put BACK their links. Otherwise? You will see initial sales then consistent dwindling over time til you reach whatever level the cam companies feel you will put up with without complaining.



Good luck Forkbeard!! (And thanks for this thread!)

[vending_machine]

The Porn Nerd, the only way in any sort of business, paysite, cams or dating, you will truly know what the customer spends is if you process on your own merchant and use your merchant for the upsell. Otherwise you simply have to have trust.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by vending_machine

The Porn Nerd, the only way in any sort of business, paysite, cams or dating, you will truly know what the customer spends is if you process on your own merchant and use your merchant for the upsell. Otherwise you simply have to have trust.

I agree - but who can you "trust"? No one, that's who. Thus my stance on rotating links.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

OK I am going to assume you were high or drunk when you made that statement. LOL Wall Street has SOME "regulations" and there is SOME recourse if you get fucked in the asshole. But with porn/cams? Come on now. LOL

Here's a Pro tip when it comes to cams: to keep ANY cam company "honest" (regardless of their TOS) you MUST rotate your ads/cam Programs. Why? Because the moment you start sending consistent traffic the Program will....well, we know what they will do. So swap 'em out every 3-4 months. THEN when a Rep contacts YOU and goes "WTF man, you were sending sales...." you can negotiate better terms to put BACK their links. Otherwise? You will see initial sales then consistent dwindling over time til you reach whatever level the cam companies feel you will put up with without complaining.



Good luck Forkbeard!! (And thanks for this thread!)

Sorry you feel that way -- bye

[vending_machine]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

I agree - but who can you "trust"? No one, that's who. Thus my stance on rotating links.

If you're not making any money on cams, you just answered your own question.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

It takes a lot less time to do due diligence on the front end than chase your money later.

Newsflash - you don't own your domains and the registrar can do whatever the fuck they want, when they want with them. You obviously didn't read the TOS which is the same with every registrar.

Same with affiliate programs. A program's TOS is ALWAYS heavily weighted toward them. That's not new. It's not a new discovery.

As always in life, the only predictor of future behavior is past behavior. TOS is not a predictor of anything other than a webmasters naïveté and immaturity. No serious webmaster or business person would place any trust in a program that has not demonstrated they can be trusted through past behavior or where trust was not earned.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Sorry you feel that way -- bye

My experience is with Members Area traffic, not purchasing ads or buying traffic to send to offers. I stand behind my comments. So, you know, bye.

Originally Posted by vending_machine

If you're not making any money on cams, you just answered your own question.

I never said I wasn't making money with cams. It's just that it's odd (don't you think) that I, along with many other affiliates, find this strange pattern of initial sales followed by less and less even if the traffic remains steady or grows? Hmmm.

No, I was saying I'm not making AS MUCH MONEY as I probably should be making with cams BUT, as an affiliate (not the owner of the program), how would I ever know? I just accept whatever the company's stats tell me is true. And we all know stats can never, ever be manipulated. :D

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

I never said I wasn't making money with cams. It's just that it's odd (don't you think) that I, along with many other affiliates, find this strange pattern of initial sales followed by less and less even if the traffic remains steady or grows? Hmmm.

Because when it's new and users see it for the first few times, they respond. Once they've seen it or checked it out, they stop clicking. Just like with any ppc campaign - a banner/link/offer has a lifespan. Initially it kills it, then it slowly dies out as everyone has been exposed to it.

Just kidding. Sponsors always steal.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Because when it's new and users see it for the first few times, they respond. Once they've seen it or checked it out, they stop clicking. Just like with any ppc campaign - a banner/link/offer has a lifespan. Initially it kills it, then it slowly dies out as everyone has been exposed to it.

Just kidding. Sponsors always steal.

LOL No I know man. That's why I rotate banners and ads, etc. The thing I was getting at is with a business model where the customer, once they are in the store, can theoretically spend endless amounts of money, it's more difficult to track. It shouldn't be but often obviously is.

In other words, tho I've been promoting cams for years inside my Mem Areas (my ever-growing Mem Areas, I add) I always, always, always make around the same amount, month after month. You would THINK, just from the sheer odds of it, that one guy might spend a little more on a cam show, no? I read about 'whales' spending 10K+ over several months on a girl. How come I never get a windfall like that?

I am being VERY general here. I am sure there are respectable cam companies. But it stands to reason that if cams and dating are the last remaining mega-profitable areas in Adult as everyone says then that's where the fiscal shenanigans are going to take place. So like the OP scrutinizing the TOS you gotta keep an eye out, that's all.

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Newsflash - you don't own your domains and the registrar can do whatever the fuck they want, when they want with them. You obviously didn't read the TOS which is the same with every registrar.

Same with affiliate programs. A program's TOS is ALWAYS heavily weighted toward them. That's not new. It's not a new discovery.

As always in life, the only predictor of future behavior is past behavior. TOS is not a predictor of anything other than a webmasters naïveté and immaturity. No serious webmaster or business person would place any trust in a program that has not demonstrated they can be trusted through past behavior or where trust was not earned.

I agree that behavior trumps promises. However, if someone promises that they will treat me badly, I tend to believe them.

Why would you assume that someone promising to mistreat all affiliates is going to be different with you because you are special?

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

I agree that behavior trumps promises. However, if someone promises that they will treat me badly, I tend to believe them.

Why would you assume that someone promising to mistreat all affiliates is going to be different with you because you are special?

But this discussion is about "gotcha" moments by scanning a programs TOS and picking it apart. No program has EVER "promised" to treat you badly. A TOS page is meaningless and even moreso, if you actually have any traffic. Not that it shouldn't be read and understood,... but no serious, established company is going to refrain from doing the right thing when dealing with a legitimate webmaster. Those are the companies you work with. You don't choose a place to send traffic to based on a page which a 16 yr old Indian designer stole from another program and where the idiotic program owners likely only did a search and replace for names. You work with serious, established people that you can trust with your traffic and trust to pay you. That means they have to have a track record of doing the right thing. All business' are the same. Good sense is good sense. Managing risk well is managing risk well.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

I am being VERY general here. I am sure there are respectable cam companies. But it stands to reason that if cams and dating are the last remaining mega-profitable areas in Adult as everyone says then that's where the fiscal shenanigans are going to take place. So like the OP scrutinizing the TOS you gotta keep an eye out, that's all.

I think its always important to read the TOS. I just think that its not a basis for judgement calls when it comes to "who to trust" as all TOS are heavily skewed and if you are actually legit, are not strictly adhered to, by any means.

They are generally to hedge against cheaters and fraud and worded accordingly and always have been and should not be a measuring stick to determine how they treat legit webmasters with legit traffic, doing legit business. For example, i highly doubt you'll ever have a dispute with any program that has been around unless they simply can't pay because they are going out of business. The vast majority of programs will fail. That is a fact. Who cares how awesome their TOS is if you can't rely on them to be around and pay you what they owe you because they have a short history?

About cams and dating, my personal view is that there is always a big misunderstanding. Cams and dating are not more successful today than they were in 1998. I mean, people get hardons for big spenders in cams and think that means something but when it comes to earnings per unique visitor, it still doesn't pan out. Cams are generally very very hard to convert for most people so when it comes to earnings per click, people aren't usually better off playing with cams unless they are specializing. Depending on how you are doing things from your members area, i could guess you aren't seeing better than 1:300-500 uniques to paid sale and members area traffic is literally the best traffic there is for targeting users who are qualified and will pay. Find the right SOI dating offers, filter by goe's to the right offers etc and you can generally get much much much higher EPCs.

I've owned very large cam studios and cam sites and I don't promote cams really at all except white labels that get search traffic. I buy a lot of traffic from tube sites and it all goes to dating. Dating has always been a top converter for any type of traffic since AFF was launched and warez sites were big and had a lot of hard to convert traffic.

Penis pills, dating, pickup artist stuff do better than porn overall in terms of EPC's because of the user's motivation... which to me, looks something like this:

1) Meet real girl today and have actual sex today.
2) Make penis larger, meet more real girls and have tons of actual sex daily.
3) Learn to meet girls and meet girls everyday and have actual sex daily.
4) Interact with real girls and get them to do anything I want them to do right now.
5) Browse and watch random medium to poor quality videos on a tube site
6) Join a site and be stuck with over-marketed, over-hyped content, a disappointing members area and then risk getting my card banged until i cancel it.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I think its always important to read the TOS. I just think that its not a basis for judgement calls when it comes to "who to trust" as all TOS are heavily skewed and if you are actually legit, are not strictly adhered to, by any means.

They are generally to hedge against cheaters and fraud and worded accordingly and always have been and should not be a measuring stick to determine how they treat legit webmasters with legit traffic, doing legit business. For example, i highly doubt you'll ever have a dispute with any program that has been around unless they simply can't pay because they are going out of business. The vast majority of programs will fail. That is a fact. Who cares how awesome their TOS is if you can't rely on them to be around and pay you what they owe you because they have a short history?

About cams and dating, my personal view is that there is always a big misunderstanding. Cams and dating are not more successful today than they were in 1998. I mean, people get hardons for big spenders in cams and think that means something but when it comes to earnings per unique visitor, it still doesn't pan out. Cams are generally very very hard to convert for most people so when it comes to earnings per click, people aren't usually better off playing with cams unless they are specializing. Depending on how you are doing things from your members area, i could guess you aren't seeing better than 1:300-500 uniques to paid sale and members area traffic is literally the best traffic there is for targeting users who are qualified and will pay. Find the right SOI dating offers, filter by goe's to the right offers etc and you can generally get much much much higher EPCs.

I've owned very large cam studios and cam sites and I don't promote cams really at all except white labels that get search traffic. I buy a lot of traffic from tube sites and it all goes to dating. Dating has always been a top converter for any type of traffic since AFF was launched and warez sites were big and had a lot of hard to convert traffic.

Penis pills, dating, pickup artist stuff do better than porn overall in terms of EPC's because of the user's motivation... which to me, looks something like this:

1) Meet real girl today and have actual sex today.
2) Make penis larger, meet more real girls and have tons of actual sex daily.
3) Learn to meet girls and meet girls everyday and have actual sex daily.
4) Interact with real girls and get them to do anything I want them to do right now.
5) Browse and watch random medium to poor quality videos on a tube site
6) Join a site and be stuck with over-marketed, over-hyped content, a disappointing members area and then risk getting my card banged until i cancel it.

First, thanks for the tutorial! I (and many others reading this) appreciate it for sure. Cams are not my specialty so my views are very skewed, specific and frankly myopic. This doesn't mean I'm wrong per se, it just means my knowledge is highly limited.

This is why I never specifically call out any program because I have learned that what works for me (and doesn't work for me) is not the same for anyone else. Everyone does things their own way. It's interesting about what you say and the return. To hear people talk you would think cams are the Golden Land. LOL

I also like your take on dating. While I'm sure there are surfers visiting tubes who just want a quick wank plenty of others are visiting "in-between" girlfriends and want real live sex.

I need to get out more I think. Been listening to 'Queen II' all day while editing anal videos so I'm sure none of this is healthy.

[TheSquealer]

Interestingly, my cam numbers today track perfectly with my numbers from 2000 (value per user, time to reach that value etc). It's a tough game though and I agree with you, stick to what you know and do well and don't spend too much time on other stuff.

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

But this discussion is about "gotcha" moments by scanning a programs TOS and picking it apart. No program has EVER "promised" to treat you badly. A TOS page is meaningless and even moreso, if you actually have any traffic. Not that it shouldn't be read and understood,... but no serious, established company is going to refrain from doing the right thing when dealing with a legitimate webmaster. Those are the companies you work with. You don't choose a place to send traffic to based on a page which a 16 yr old Indian designer stole from another program and where the idiotic program owners likely only did a search and replace for names. You work with serious, established people that you can trust with your traffic and trust to pay you. That means they have to have a track record of doing the right thing. All business' are the same. Good sense is good sense. Managing risk well is managing risk well.

If an adult program has a 16 year old Indian designer spin their legal docs, that doesn't seem very serious and longevity-oriented.

I'm sure you are right that some programs do this and have never even read their own TOS. Maybe some of those will read this thread and realize how that looks to many webmasters.

Someone who is mean to the waiter, but nice to you, is not a nice person.

A program which rips off someone smaller, but is nice to you, is not to be trusted.

[mopek1]

Originally Posted by AmeliaG

Someone who is mean to the waiter, but nice to you, is not a nice person.

I've always loved that quote/idea and use it to help me when assessing people and businesses.