Fletch XXX

Donny if you plan on posting in this thread I assure you to not try and change facts.

You didnt pay me more than I asked for that design.

from icq:

"DonovanPhillips (12:04 PM) :

I do think you should mention in the thread on GFY that I told you what happened between my partner and I and asked how much you wanted for KinkyChloe.com and then paid you the amount you requested. I think I actually even paid more than you asked.

DonovanPhillips (12:04 PM) :

Or was the "more than you asked" with something else?

FletchCore (12:05 PM) :

I am really not sure, but I do not think it was this project since I had designed this with thinking of percentage. I wasnt paid out until I was told I was no longer part of the deal.

FletchCore (12:05 PM) :

the more than you asked was definitely something else."

I was working on % not a flat pay at that time, you know that.

THE AGREEMENT WAS THAT WAS A ALT TOUR for teen chloe, not a template to be used on multiple sites that you are not even part of.

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Donny

And for the record... all my present single girl sites are in partnership with TFCash because the owner is a friend of mine, one of the best people in the business, and knows the "teen" niche.

DonnysMoney.com is my own program, seperate from my single girl sites.

Donny

I am now shutting off my computers and taking Karma home. I'll be gone at least 6 hours but will address any issues that need me to address them when I return.

I promise I will resolve this to the best of my abilities as soon as it is possible. It's just not possible at the moment with some of the involved people being out of town for the Holiday.

Damn, I hate being directly involved in drama.

(No hard feelings against Fletch... at least not enough to make me change my mind that he's the best designer in the biz).

cherrylula

hmm so I suppose its Fletch who is at fault for not getting it on paper from you that kinky chloe design was not to be used on other sites.

He was told you would be using it for an alternate tour and just took your word on it.

Template designs are a whole other thing. You cannot compare this to some rehashing of a $15 gallery template.

How would you feel if someone bought content from you and just assumed it was exclusive to them and gave copies to all their friends to use? I would think a professional content producer as yourself would understand. Guess not.

<IMX>

Damn the situation is sticky, if it wasn't in writing.

If he paid for it, then the design really isn't fletch's anymore. It is shady, but they can replicate it as many times as the want.

Hope you guys can work it out.

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LadyMischief

Not true.. Unless they worked out a deal for copyrights as well, the design is fletch's no matter how many times people pay for it or how much.

I'm a little surprised how this has played out and with who, and I hope it all gets resolved. Fletch has been dealt with VERY poorly here and I'm hoping everyone can make ammends.

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McKracken

i would get the other sites closed due to copyright infringement.....!!


that really blows mate AND I hope you will not give up without a dirty fight!

cherrylula

Being the business partner on the other end here with Fletch, it kind of went like this:

Fletch gets hit up with a partnership deal that sounds really great, and is ready to spend lots of his own time on the projects. Pictures of multiple models are shown to him, all girls needing sites, it all sounds great. Figures are discussed and it would have been a nice long term partnership.

So then Fletch then spends time working on this first site design and then turns it over.

Next thing ya know Fletch is being told that the specific girl (chloe) he designed the site for was chosen by Donny's partner to be added to his program of girl sites. It was then explained to Fletch by Donny that this other partner pays a lot of $$ to Donny for his content and that he was obligated to give him first choice of his models for single girl sites.

The other partner wasn't interested in sharing any of the % with Fletch, said he had in house designers and didn't need Fletch's kinky chloe design. So, again it was said that it would just be an alternate tour for Donny's affiliates.

So Fletch is told this deal still stands in regards to the sites needed for other girls, yet that is something else that never came through on this deal either. It really makes me question the intentions here from the beginning.

Anyhow if you've read this far and grasp this post...

Next I recall next in the chain of events, we noticed Donny had made a copy of the kinky chloe layout on his new site amateur market site. When confronted, Donny tells him that since he knows Fletch is so busy he didn't want to bother him to design the site and just had his friend do it. Uh, again ok.

So far all is cool in the chain of events, even though it still kind of sucks. Donny tells Fletch he can go ahead design an alternate tour for NCG along same partership lines, without this other partner involved, which he does. All goes ok with that, but another issue in itself.

So here we are now and this other partner has changed all of his old cookie cutter girl site designs to a knock off of the same original fletch/kinky chloe design that was supposed to be part of a revshare deal and then became an alternate tour. These same sites copied by the guy who didn't want to pay Fletch a % for his work, gee go figure. Although I do still hope at this point it is a misunderstanding, it surely does not look that way.

This is how I see it. Sure there are other little facts here and there.

If its just a misunderstanding and not about money and screwing people over I am sure Fletch will be compensated.

At this point I have very little faith and figure they will just alter the tour designs minimally and carry on.

Lesson learned.

<IMX>

You could very well be right, I did a quick search and it seems to be why explicit written contracts are suggested.

Each party could conceivablely claim copyright and back-up their claim.

The other problem is the replication...if that itself would be a violation of the copyright of that original design.

I think, in fairness, it is a bit stickier than most "you fucked me!" threads.

[edit read the cherylula response]
Fuck it, there is too much info to even render an opinion on the matter. Use contracts.

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Honeyslut

Sorry to see that you were screwed, Fletch . I have seen alot of this type of threads hanging around here the last few years but I am shocked to see it about you and Donovan.


Threads like this one is way I am afraid to reply back to a MAJOR sponsor that wanted to partner up with me on my sites.

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stocktrader23

Donny, always liked you but this shit stinks and you know it.

You were on here yourself boasting about how you were paying Fletch because you believe blah blah blah.

If you can't tell, he's now getting fucked royally. Regardless of what you do now that shit wouldn't sit well with me ever.

Pay the man what you originally agreed and move on with your business. If your "friend" expects you to fuck over a business aquaintance because he doesn't want to share the cookies you should tell him to stick it up his ass.

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Fletch XXX

I warn you now. no matter who what how much you trust them.

contracts, writing. my uncle has a team of lawyers and hopefully I can get him to write me up something really good so this never happens again.

I am having something drawn up before I turn over another piece of work to anyone.

I retain PSDs and never even delivered them, this was all a deal in progress that kinda got sidetracked because I was cut out and it kinda kept rolling.

It basically comes down to me being hit up to not only design 1 solo girl site, but a flock of them. I even mentioned this deal to a VERY SELECT few on this board.

Now it seems I was cut out of that loop and not only was I cut out, my work was then used to FINISH the deal.

that is simply how I see it in its most simple terms.

lesson MORE THAN LEARNED.

contracts and signatures from now on.

This is like the sword of damocles in my side, this act will make my entire workload more trouble now because I will not let this go, not forget it, and now my other clients who never pull shit like this will have to deal with the consequences. While I wont have people sign shit for gallery orders, a disclaimer or something is more than in order.

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quiet

this entire thread makes me sick to my stomach, and won't be forgotten.

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AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Welcome to the day that separates a real designer from the wanna be's Fletch.

Its a hard day for a designer when they realise the power of there own designs over business's that stand to take advantage of there creativity.

Becomming aware of creative abilities value and protecting it is a very good day for a creative graphic artist.

All the hardcore design pro's come to this day so welcome to the next level FletchXXX

You do great work I have seen alot of it and admire your style bud. Its going to be interesting to see how you position yourself in the comming months from this event.

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Sly_RJ

Um... wow.

I have a strong feeling this will get even uglier.

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stocktrader23

Agree, someone should be busting balls to make this right.

We'll see but I doubt it.

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Anna_O

Took me a while to read through all this... There is allways two sides of a story but it indeed sounds like Fletch got fucked over. Threads like this one shows which people to do biz with and who to avoid. Hopefully Fletch will get many new clients after this thread, I know he is one designer we'd turn to if we needed something done.

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69pornlinks

like i posted in another thread i trust NOONE, but you the oNLY one i trust, i don't why anyone would try to fuck you, you good shit, fuck these hoes who try to fuck you....Fletch XXX keep doing you.....

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Fletch XXX

Id rather not see it turn ugly or uglier.

I have plenty of info, facts, conversations... icq history, everything to back me up. I wont go into any of that but it goes MUCH DEEPER.

People have been emailing me info on laws about this and all I can say is this:

Donny mentioned this guy thinking he had "exclusive rights" well, designers retain FEDERAL COPYRIGHTS to all work unless explicity stated in an Exclusive COntract. Also what that law states is that, unless you have exclusive contract for the design, you do not even have the authority or legal right to have it copied in any way.

technically, the design is mine unless stated otherwise in a contract, we have no contract, the work is mine and no one but me, and me alone has the rights to allow someone to copy it.

Its basically as simple as that.

I dont want to see this get any more nasty than it has to. I only want what I deserve. Compensation and the respect I am owed for my work.

Damages can be awarded anywhere from $700 to 30,000 per infringement. I do not want to see it get nasty, but I have complete faith I am right, and should not have had to deal with this.

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Enlightening aint it!

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LadyMischief

I'm very surprised that DOnovan, a content guy, wouldn't be more verse in copyright law, since the same laws generally apply to any work of art, be it a photograph, a design, a drawing, or what have you. I'm disappointed and the whole thing is very shitty. Hopefully everything gets worked out to an amicable ending. Good luck Fletch!

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Joe Citizen

Man I'm really sorry to hear you got fucked over. It seems this industry is full of conmen and charlatans ready to rip off anyone who they feel can be of benefit to them.

To see it happen to a man of his word like you pisses me off.

I hope this all gets sorted out ASAP and you get what what you were promised and deserve.

Donny

I just got back from taking Karma home, and Jesus Christ, now I'm furious!! Fletch's girl gets on here and makes me out to be a complete untrustworthy asshole.

Let me tell you, first of all, that a person that is sneaky or crooked is also suspicious of EVERYONE ELSE.

I am not like that. I have only spoken to Fletch on the phone and in ICQ and I trust him so much that I gave him complete FTP access, not only to one folder on my server, but to ALL of my sites. He could have fucked me at any time. But I knew he wouldn't. Why? Because I just knew.

Like I said, a person that is shady would never trust another person. Think about that for a second before replying.

Next post will address the issues. This post is simply addressing my integrity. Hold off to read the next post before replying.

Donny

Here is what happened:

* I have several models interested in doing single-girl sites with me.

* Chloe (see KinkyChloe.com) was one of those girls.

* I wanted to cut the designer in on website revenues. I wanted Fletch to be the designer because I REALLY like the guy. He is a straight shooter and tells it like it is.

* Fletch starts on the design. Meantime, TFCash, that has done business with me for several years and spends six figures per year with me on exclusive content expresses an interest in her. I tell TFCash that I would like to have Fletch do the design and receive a percentage.

* TFCash is not interested in this... they have their own designer.

* I let Fletch know what is going on. I tell him "I can either tell them that I'm keeping the model for myself and working with you, promoting the model through my own program.... or I can pay you for your work. Charge me more than normal... and I'll use the KinkyChloe design for my own affiliates to promote".

* Fletch is disappointed, but says that he understands my position since TFCash is such a big client and personal friend. He tells me to go ahead and pay him $500 for the design. I make him think about it for awhile to be sure. He thinks about it and is still willing to part with that site. I tell him that I feel really bad about the situation and that he can create an alternate tour for NakedCollegeGirls, that I'll pay him $500 for the NCG alternate tour, and that I'll set up a seperate CCBill account for the NCG alternate tour and pay him 25% of sales ON TOP OF paying him for the design. He says he's happy with that.

* The alternate tour Fletch makes for NCG converts at 1:171 the first weekend out, with my own traffic. Then I release it to affiliates and the overall conversion ratio drops below 1:2,000. I am stunned, but I REALLY don't want to hurt Fletch's feelings, so I don't tell him how bad the conversions are...

* Fletch gets busy with other clients and I get busy on my own stuff and we don't chat as much on ICQ.

* TFCash finishes the first TeenChloe.com design. I fucking hate it. I tell them so. I tell them Fletch's design looks much better. Since I brought up Fletch, TFCash asks if he's still okay with me purchasing his design. I told him that Fletch is disappointed but has been really cool about it and that I have made other agreements with him on sites unrelated to TFCash.

* Life goes on. I feel bad for Fletch, but it was ultimately Fletch that made the decision to allow me to buy the design and work with him on other projects instead. If he hadn't approved it, Chloe would have remained just between he and I. I put all the cards on the table and let Fletch choose.

* Right before my vacation TFCash releases the new designs in discussion. They look very similar to the design Fletch did for KinkyChloe.com. I don't have time to talk to Fletch about them because I'm leaving for vacation.

* I get back and have angry ICQ messages from Fletch saying he'd like to resolve this with me and not go to the boards. I get these messages 2.5 hours after he initially sent them. But by then he's already gone to the boards.

* I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE REASONING IS BEHIND THE NEW DESIGNS BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO TALK TO TFCASH!

Now... I'll continue and answer other questions in my next post.

cherrylula

Donny I don't think you are an untrustworthy asshole, nor am I really trying to paint you as that. That is just my perspective here.

I am with Fletch just about 24/7 and am not just some bitchy girlfriend.

I really hope this all gets resolved, but honestly when were you going to bring this to Fletch's attention that your partner was duping the site layout? I mean come on, you already duped a copy for amateur market, so we pretty much assumed you were aware of the other sites creations.

Anyhow hope it gets resolved.

Donny

I have been selling exclusive content ONLY for 7 years (with the exception of approx. 10 sets I sent to Ounique for resell).

When I sell a set of exclusive photos to a client, that client has FULL RIGHTS to the photos. I have NO RIGHTS from that point on. The client can resell them, give them away, or distribute them on the strip in Las Vegas to all who pass.... it's their choice. The photos are no longer mine.

I am very familiar with copyrights as related to what I do.

Now, if everyone would READ THE FUCKING THREAD they'll see that I DO NOT KNOW WHY HIS DESIGNS WERE IMITATED. I had nothing to do with it.

TFCash has been buying exclusive content from me from the beginning of my career in the business. I can only ASSUME (REPEAT ---- ASSUME BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SPOKEN WITH THEM AND DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY THINK) that TFCash, knowing that I purchased the design from Fletch, believes that copyright laws with designers is the same as it is with content providers.

TFCash also knows that I am very generous and that what is mine is his... if he wants to use it. IF he assumed that I have the same exclusive rights on this DESIGN that he has when he buys content from me, he would know that I would allow him to use anything I own.

He also knows that I hated his designer's work and loved Fletch's.

I can see why he would do what he did without thinking twice about it.

I can ALSO see Fletch's side.

BUT READ THIS. TWICE. THREE FUCKING TIMES IF YOU DON'T COMPREHEND IT THE FIRST TWO TIMES:

I HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA EXACTLY WHAT TFCASH IS THINKING BECAUSE I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ASK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now.... knowing TFCash, I do know they are not scumballs either. They are some of the best in the business. I know there is a logical explanation for this. I JUST HAVEN'T HEARD IT FROM THEM YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got that???????



And to be completely honest with you, I had no idea that copyright laws for Designs are different than the laws I go buy when selling exclusive content.

Donny

I got back from my vacation on Friday morning. An hour later I found out that I'd been arrested in Las Vegas Thursday evening (yes, the night before I got back from my vacation--- when I was 700 miles away from Las Vegas: my little brother passed himself off as me) so I had to deal with that most of Friday afternoon. Around 7pm on Friday evening, Karma (from TeenKarma.com) calls and says she's free for the weekend to shoot updates. She lives 3 hours away and is IMPOSSIBLE to get in touch with, so I rush over to get her. We shoot for the weekend. I called TFCash on Saturday to discuss both Karma and the new designs. No one is there. I continue shooting Karma. Sunday, same thing. No one there. Shooting Karma as much as possible.

Monday morning (this morning) I log on to ICQ to message my cousin. I get Fletch's angry messages 2 and a half hours after he sends them. He says he wants to talk and not go to the boards. But by the time I got the message it's too late. He already has.

I still haven't been able to contact TFCash to get the story.


Jesus Christ. I can't believe this. Duped on Amateur Market??? I already went over this with Fletch. Now all of a sudden he's DUPED on AM?

How much would you like me to PayPal you for that? Let me know and it will be done. I thought this was a non-issue.

Donny

And I STILL can't believe this is on the boards.

Sly_RJ

Donny you seem to have a lot of troubles with your little brother. What's his problem?

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Donny

Addicted to Meth. Unwilling to go to rehab.

cherrylula

Well then lets just see what happens when you can get in touch with tfcash and leave it at that. There is obviously misunderstanding and miscommunications involved, and its not worth pursuing at this point.

Its cool, we weren't really that bothered with your use of the design for AN, but seeing it again on your other partner sites added together just didn't come off well.

And you were spamming Karma the other night and this morning so we figured you were promoting the new tour and just assumed Fletch would not say anything to you about it.

Again hopefully all the proper communications can be made to resolve this issue accordingly.

LadyMischief

Relax Donnie.. Looks like you've kind of been left holding the bag.

As for copyright laws, they are more detailed when it comes to design type stuff. It's very iffy and it's a good thing to ask a lawyer about. Hope you guys get shit all worked out, and I'm pretty sure you can understand why things looked bad to Fletch and Cherry. Hopefully everything was miscommunication.

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SureFire

Interesting. You bought the design but didn't contact the designer about additional useage rights?

wyldblyss

I'm not going to comment on the matter between you and Fletch...still reading...but I will comment on this post.

I basically trust about 3 people on this entire earth completely. Err...maybe 2...Anyways...I am one of the most trustworthy people there is and I NEVER fuck people over. Just because someone does not trust does NOT make them shady...usually it means they have been fucked around so often in the past that they have lost all trust in humans. This is what happened to me, so many times it makes me sick to think about it. People I trusted, they all betrayed me...so I became afraid and suspicious....I didn't become shady. So please, don't make generalizations, because it sort of insults people like me that have been to hell and back because they trusted the wrong people. Thanks.

eroswebmaster

well it sounds like things might be on their way to being corrected.

hope you guys get this all worked out.

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Donny

First of all:
If you had read the thread carefully (maybe I should type slower?) you'd see the **I** DID NOT REUSE A FUCKING THING.

Secondly:
Please carefully read my reply to LadyMischief where I discuss the "rules" I go by when selling exclusive content to clients. I sell more than $300,000 per year in exclusive content alone. I am very familiar with how things work in the exclusive content arena. Clients do NOT have to contact me about resell rights. That's why they buy exclusive. I honestly had no idea that there was a difference when it comes to design.

Donny

To break it down for the late comers that have been asking me on ICQ to summarize this:

I bought this design from Fletch:

http://www.kinkychloe.com

The partner I have on my single girl sites had his designers create these:

http://www.teenkarma.com

http://www.teenkeera.com

http://www.kellyq.com

(etc)

Lots of similarities between the two, eh?

Fletch is angry. Fletch starts thread before we talk. The rest you'll have to read.

Donny

Here is what really sucks... I really want Fletch to continue doing future work with me. In fact, I want him to do something for a non-adult site I have.... a site that is my most important site in the world: an online journal of my thoughts to my little boy who is now 4 years old. It's a very special site.

But now there's this big huge fucked up mess that undoubtedly has harmed my relationship to Fletch.

Fuck.

TDF

this just shows when things arent put in writing..sad story to see

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eroswebmaster

Kinda like when we were gonna adopt that 18 year old eurasian girl together...and now you have sole custody you friggin' bastard!

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Fletch XXX

Donny, look seriously it's nothing personal between you and I, please understand where we are coming from. I am not trying to blame you for anything, but please understand I do not know your partner, and I am basically waiting to find out.

I am sorry if I jumped the gun but I didnt even mention your name in this thread. I acknowledged the fact parties "were out of town" - you know damn well if I wanted to go all out today and go for blood I could have and could have a 9 page thread right now. I could not hold my tongue, for that I apologize but I dont think I did anything wrong.

I do not like to burn bridges, I am as real as I can beand shoot the shit straight as you even said.

I am glad you mentioned the fact you gave me access to your server, that it self shows how much trust was going on between the both of us during any of our deals.

I do not want to see anything go wrong with this. I truly wish you can listen to some of the posts in this thread and see whats been done, and simply fix it. The fix is easy.

I dont ask for anything but what I mentioned in icq. That is not much. I know and trust you can make this right.

And I assure you, if all goes well, I would be glad to do your journal site. I dont want to give up NCG either. Hopefully your partner and you can do whatever it is you feel to make it right.

If you say he copied them believing he could. Fine, I can believe that. We can handle this very easily.

My head is pounding, I have to get away from this computer. Contact whoever you need to. Get back to me and we can wrap it up in the matter of a day.

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Donny

If all goes well, eh? That is entirely out of my hands. I can only point TFCash to this thread and our ICQ conversation. What happens from there is entirely up to TFCash. Sucks that the decisions of TFCash will have an influence on my son's site.


I believe TFCash thought it was entirely okay. Like I mentioned, when a client pays for Exclusive Content they get full rights and the producer has no rights. He has an in-house designer and all I've ever dealt with in the design world is you. Neither of us had any clue that copyright laws are different with designers than with exclusive content providers.

And to be honest, I still don't know the rules are different. I'm taking the word of designers in this thread.

Fletch XXX

Out of your hands? Someone is using designs I sold you on multiple sites, it is in your hands.

Are there contracts involved with exclusive content? Do you need to sign anything for those rights? A contract perhaps?

You and I have no contract, and as stated and for you to have exclusive rights for a design you need to be given thatt exclusive rights, in contract form. You have not.

here is the pdf from the American Institute Of Graphic Arts.

http://www.fletchxxx.com/copyright/aiga_copyright.pdf

Covers design copyright laws.

It clearly states, that once I create something it is mine until I give the rights away in contract. Just because you compare this tour to exclusive content does not make the comparison accurate. It can get technical but it's all pretty common sense to people who create things regularly. Read the exclusive rights section regarding design. No contract, no exclusivity. No right to "copy" or replicate in any form.

I am not trying to pull lawyers out either, I am simply trying to illustrate that graphic design copyright is as serious as music copyright. The artist retains Federally Protected Copyright the moment I created the PSD.

I hope it doesnt have to get that technical, it doesnt have to, but the facts are the facts and that is that.

I am trying to get away and watch SOuth Park, I dont feel like posting about this anymore today.

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Donny

Please tell me what I can do, besides point out your concerns?

Maybe I should go hold a gun to someone's head?

SleazyDream

that's why i don't ever want partners

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Donny

This has nothing to do with anything, but has anyone noticed that in my sig, the link to DonnysMoney.com (which is my own program.... no partners) has an affiliate code? It has had that same code in the link for more than 3 months.

Any idea who the affiliate is in that linking code?

Fletch.

Why would I do that with my own sig? Because I felt bad that he ended up having to sell me the design, even though I paid regular pricing.

DeanCapture

Donny - the best way to clean this up is to pull out the check book and write Fletch a check for $500 for each of those sites that were ripped off. That'll clear the air between you and Fletch.

Then, when your able to talk to your "partner", you can explain that because you and he are parters, and because he instructed his designer to "copy" your friends design, you felt it necessary to pay your friend for the infringement. If your "partner" has any morals, he'll repay you back the money and thank you for taking care of the situation while he was away. If he refuses to repay you, well - you've just learned how much your "partner" really cares about you as a business associate and as a friend.

As much as you don't think you should be caught in the middle of this - the more you are. At least it appears that way from the outside.

Everybody here knows that your one of the good guys out there so nows the opportunity to step up and take care of not only a good designer but also a good friend that has been devestated by the actions of your business "partner".

Cut the boy a check and take it up with your partner. You'll feel so much better about everything and you'll quickly see what your partner really thinks of you

__________________
Twitter: @DeanCapture
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Kristin P

I am kind of a nobody here but I do have something to say:

I've known Donny my whole life which means I know him better than anybody who posts on this board. I won't ramble on about how he got me into this business as a successful content provider and asked for absolutely nothing in return.....or how wonderful of a father he is....or how well he treats his family, friends, and people he does buisness with. I will say that Donny would NEVER intentionally screw anybody over, especially out of greed. He is the most generous person I know in both his personal and business relations. It saddens me to even see the word "greed" associated with Donovan Phillips. I also know TFCash. I shoot content for him and I have never known him to be anything but honest. I do not know Fletch but he also sounds like a good and honest person. In this business it's easy to assume the worst. But, this is most likely a huge misunderstanding that I'm sure will be worked out.

Good luck to all three of you