Does PPS really work? - Page 7 - GoFuckYourself.com

Marc De · 01-03-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pornkings

Yes but when its time to cash out all the reacurring becomes profit and when you have a large database it ads up to millions.

Most programs don't fold because they are in the red they fold to cash out. they already paid out the webmasters. all the reacurring is profit.

Good point - unfortnately with no new activity, keeping c/b's under 1% is impossible and keeping your account alive is a struggle. Its not quite cut and dry like that

slapass · 01-03-2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc De

Kevin2 - [email protected]

Also - I saw someone saying 40% initial sign ups on full month - don't know who is getting that but you're lucky if you get 5%

Tushycash does about 40% full joins versus trial. I am not sure of how the trial is offered though.

slapass · 01-03-2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike33

I think the revshare guys are saying that they can pay $35 or more but not on the initial signup. It will come over 2-3 months. They simply don't have enough funds to do it out of pocket and then have to wait 2-3 months to get their share.

you did not read the thread. They are saying it is a losing proposition. This was repeated over and over by revshare folks.

andrej_NDC · 01-03-2005, 04:05 PM

All forget 1 important thing: sales. Some PPS programs have ugly sites, which can convert 1:2000 or worse, but you will see 1:300-500 in their stats. They can start with 2nd page and if the ratios are still shit, they will start counting billing join page clicks, which normally converts 1:3-30(depends on the join page). And there is also difference with the tours, some great sites have 50% CTR to the join(2nd) page and even if they count 2nd page its still high, but other tours can have 10% CTR to 2nd page, so of course the ratios will look a lot better.

Only thing you need is to use your own script to count clicks and then check $$$ per click on the same traffic or similar gallery template(steady CTR)

bigdog · 01-03-2005, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc De

Good point - unfortnately with no new activity, keeping c/b's under 1% is impossible and keeping your account alive is a struggle. Its not quite cut and dry like that

sign up for 2k memberships under your own credit cards for a $1 a piece

teomaxxx · 01-03-2005, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapass

Tushycash does about 40% full joins versus trial. I am not sure of how the trial is offered though.

its exit trial with lower price, which pop up if you dont join to their site.

teomaxxx · 01-03-2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay[neX]

No way a trial join is worth $80-120 over any period of time. If it was worth that much, big programs would pay $60/trial, and no one would ever wonder how can PPS make money.

Full joins at $30/month are worth that much. .

Its strange when program like triplexcash.com charging $30/month (without using trials) lower their payments on PPS to 25usd.
What a lot of PPS owners said about them (indirectly) in this thread?
loosers..

andrej_NDC · 01-03-2005, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teomaxxx

Its strange when program like triplexcash.com charging $30/month (without using trials) lower their payments on PPS to 25usd.
What a lot of PPS owners said about them (indirectly) in this thread?
loosers..

I know a sponsor who pays $25 PPS on a 34.95 tour, without a exit trial

teomaxxx · 01-03-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

If you have good quality niche targed traffic, push revshare, the retention will earn you more than a PPS.

I sent in my whole adult webmaster career about 1.5k joins (a main part of them is not using trials) to revshare programs and noone, except one, made more than 35$ PPS. Almost all of them were good quality niche programs.
Even 30$ and above per member wasnt/isnt often, rather something between 22-27$ per member.
So i understand that some revshare programs says here they arent able to pay 30-35$ PPS

andrej_NDC · 01-03-2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teomaxxx

I sent in my whole adult webmaster career about 1.5k joins (a main part of them is not using trials) to revshare programs and noone, except one, made more than 35$ PPS. Almost all of them were good quality niche programs.
Even 30$ and above per member wasnt/isnt often, rather something between 22-27$ per member.
So i understand that some revshare programs says here they arent able to pay 30-35$ PPS

and did you have the same amount of joins later with niche PPS programs?

teomaxxx · 01-03-2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

and did you have the same amount of joins later with niche PPS programs?

no, there arent good quality niche PPS programs, thats contradictions

PPS niche programs convert for me much worse then revshare niche programs, thats why i use them.
But if i had to choose between reality sites from PPS program and reality sites from partnership program i would definitately choose PPS.

andrej_NDC · 01-03-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teomaxxx

no, there arent good quality niche PPS programs, thats contradictions

Im waiting for the first PPS program owner who tells how good his niche sites are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by teomaxxx

But if i had to choose between reality sites from PPS program and reality sites from partnership program i would definitately choose PPS.

Also reality sites can be niche sites.

Kevin2 · 01-03-2005, 05:19 PM

Thanks Marc De I am mailing you now.

slapass · 01-03-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teomaxxx

I sent in my whole adult webmaster career about 1.5k joins (a main part of them is not using trials) to revshare programs and noone, except one, made more than 35$ PPS. Almost all of them were good quality niche programs.
Even 30$ and above per member wasnt/isnt often, rather something between 22-27$ per member.
So i understand that some revshare programs says here they arent able to pay 30-35$ PPS

This mirrors my experience. And with ccbill they also take the 13% or whatever it is reducing it further.

Look at the major link lists that list how each program did and you will not see any revshare in the top 5 normally.

SeniorX · 01-04-2005, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

10,000 sign-ups total = payout: $350,000
10,000 sign-ups X 500 uniques = 5 million hits

10% of sign-ups is an xsale = $10 per sale = $10,000
50% of the traffic will see the exit, 1:3000 convert to view rate X $35 per sale = $29166

New Total: $402237 profit of = $52237

is it not missing -12% processing from the xsales and exits also?

Pornkings · 01-04-2005, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc De

Good point - unfortnately with no new activity, keeping c/b's under 1% is impossible and keeping your account alive is a struggle. Its not quite cut and dry like that

true you have to have your own traffic.

Matt_WildCash · 01-04-2005, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike33

PPS is not some complicated algorithm. Some programs are unable to do it because it will require capital (if being done honestly), while others choose not to do it.

For instance, here's how rudimentary it is. I checked out a TopBucks site
http://www.herfirstasstomouth.com/s1/index.html

Topbucks pay $35 per signup.

The trial is $9.95 for 7 days, full membership after that period is $39.95. So assuming it goes to full membership, that leaves them with $9.95 + $39.95 - $35 = $14.90

But even if it doesn't go to full membership, note that there is a pre-checked cross sell which reads "Click here to signup for a 1 day trial Membership to Tight Buttholes - One Day Trial Membership for $2.97. After 1 day, Membership renews automatically at $29.97 every 1 month."

So even if the $9.95 trial doesn't go to full $39.95 membership, there is the cross sell safety in place that charges $29.95 after one day. Therefore even if the user doesn't become a full member, but doesn't "Unclick" rather then "Click" to join Tight Buttholes, TopBucks earns $9.95 + $29.95 = $39.99 within one day. And therefore earn $39.99 - $35 = $4.99 in one day. If the user goes to full membership and the One day trial membership goes thru TB earns $39.95 + $4.99 = $44.98 off the member in profit (this is how much earned after paying the affiliate the $35).

A revshare program operating in the same manner can pay $35 or even $70, but not many revshare programs it seems, charge $39.99 for their membership and have a one day prechecked trial of $2.95 trial that leads to a $29.95 membership (Imagine if a site like Karups did this rather than simply charging the $29.95 per month that they do). I'm not quite sure why this is the case. I think it goes back to the difference in the philosophy of their marketing. But even without doing so, we're still in debate as to which one will earn an affiliate more money. I think if Karups included all the features in the join page that a PPS program does, the answer would clearly be revshare.

Revshare programs tend to be quite simple when it comes to price. The price is X for one month recurring. The PPS model hits you with essentially four different subscriptions at once when you're at the join page ($9.95 7 day subscription, $39.99 30 day subscription, $2.95 1 day subscription, $29.95 30 day subscription). Is it wrong to do this? No.

Basically PPS models rely on the fact that many consumers are not keen shoppers. Yes, a certain percentage of them will refund/chargeback, but most will not and the ones that do are made up via other methods such as mailings etc (note the prechecked agreement to receive newsletters on the TB page).

It's reminds of of real world retail, where you buy something for $39.99 that has a $30 rebate. All you have to do is mail in the rebate form to get your $30 so that the product only actually costs you $9.99. I always mail in my rebates, but do any of you know how many people in the general public actually mail in rebates? The number of people is between 1-10 percent and it's usually 1 percent rather than 10 percent. Surprising isn't it? Those are industry figures. Companies understand these figures. They know that rebates work in their favor or they wouldn't offer them. I say good for the company. If the customer doesn't choose to take money back by simply mailing in a form then that's that.

In online adult, companies understand that a certain % of people will upgrade from a trial by choice or default and only a % of those will refund/chargeback. They understand their customers. The difference is that in online adult, these users may be less likely to join other sites in the future even if they don't refund/chargeback the subscription because they realize they may have overpaid. It's perhaps one (and only one) of potentially many reasons why those 'margins' everybody in this thread is talking about have dwindled and continue to get smaller and may very well become unprofitable at some point.

I'm sorry Mike PPS is a lot more complicated than that, and cross sells don't all convert and most of them are unclicked as surfers are smart as hell these days.

PPS is possible, we are doing it now with NATS and paying $25-30 on $1.95 3 day trials. PPS makes affilates more money period. Revshare is for those who can't do Proper PPS as it takes a team of people to run the program properly and maximize every part of it with mailers upsells, exits etc

andrej_NDC · 01-04-2005, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeniorX

is it not missing -12% processing from the xsales and exits also?

no, only a few % for merchants...

andrej_NDC · 01-04-2005, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slapass

Look at the major link lists that list how each program did and you will not see any revshare in the top 5 normally.

because they list sponsors by ratios and some of them count millionth page uniques

bigdog · 07-02-2005, 05:59 PM

bump for a great thread

Zprogramz · 07-02-2005, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A C

Trial $2.95
Recurring $39.95
Ratio 30%
Avg Months 3
Gross $38.91
Proc. Fee $5.84 (15%)
Refunds $3.89 (10%)
Net $29.18

Doesn't work w/o member upsells, exits, emails, etc.. that's where all the $ is made, obviously. A good site can net about $10 per join before administrative expenses imo..

Run your own merchant accounts and pay 1/2 of that in processing fees. It will increase you botom line for sure.

Z

Zprogramz · 07-02-2005, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdog

sign up for 2k memberships under your own credit cards for a $1 a piece

Unless you have hundreds of credit cards, the bank will catch on to that and clode you down.

Z

Theo · 07-02-2005, 08:10 PM

maybe its about time someone to admit wrong and unban Alex

kernelpanic · 07-02-2005, 08:13 PM

It depends on your traffic, whether or not your surfers will retain long enough for revshare to be more profitable.

Personally, revshare usually pays better for me, and I like the steady income.

RogerV · 07-02-2005, 08:15 PM

Oh yes our PPS rocks

kernelpanic · 07-02-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zprogramz

Run your own merchant accounts and pay 1/2 of that in processing fees. It will increase you botom line for sure.

Z

won't last very long

QuaWee · 07-02-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul_Rebel

maybe its about time someone to admit wrong and unban Alex

why was he ban?

Zprogramz · 07-02-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kernelpanic

won't last very long

What won't last very long? A merchant account. We have had ours for years.

Z

Mako · 07-02-2005, 10:12 PM

There was no need to bump this thread bigdog.

Done to death.

Theo · 07-04-2005, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuaWee

why was he ban?

AMP got banned and probably deserved it (havent read the thread), but except him most people associated to j&a got banned that day for no reason. Alex was in vacations while he got banned. Not sure what kind of reasoning is this.

TheDoc · 07-04-2005, 07:13 AM

Wow, this is an old thread with some old info on it..

Dollarmansteve · 07-04-2005, 07:26 AM

there's no money in PPS.

tranza · 07-04-2005, 07:48 AM

Who bumped this thread?

bigdog · 07-04-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranza

Who bumped this thread?

i bumped it

David - PG · 07-04-2005, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zprogramz

Run your own merchant accounts and pay 1/2 of that in processing fees. It will increase you botom line for sure.

Z

The above assumptions were - let me quote it again -

Quote:

Trial $2.95
Recurring $39.95
Ratio 30%
Avg Months 3
Gross $38.91
Proc. Fee $5.84 (15%)
Refunds $3.89 (10%)
Net $29.18

How on earth will you bill this at 7.5% with your merchant account?

Gateway fee: 15 cents
Merchant Bank per Transaction: 50 cents (paid on every approved and declined (!) transaction)
Merchant bank: 4-6%
CB Fee: $35-$50
Refund fee: $0-$5

Throw in a couple chargebacks & refunds and you're quickly paying 9%-14% billing costs with your merchant account (assuming you have trials - and the CB, RF & decline numbers are industry standard). A merchant account is *NOT* cheaper than 3rd party on trials. This is a myth, a lie. It doesn't compute. Anything below 15% is good. That's the truth.

I see you in every thread throwing sand into people's eyes like that. Why? What is the purpose of this misinformation?

justsexxx · 07-04-2005, 08:42 AM

SO when AMP was pulling shit when he worked with adult.com erik, lensman etc would be banned too?

chadglni · 07-04-2005, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teomaxxx

I sent in my whole adult webmaster career about 1.5k joins (a main part of them is not using trials) to revshare programs and noone, except one, made more than 35$ PPS. Almost all of them were good quality niche programs.
Even 30$ and above per member wasnt/isnt often, rather something between 22-27$ per member.
So i understand that some revshare programs says here they arent able to pay 30-35$ PPS

To me this statement just re-enforces the fact that a program can easily pay $35 or more PPS with no problems. If nobody can see why then it's not my concern.

Theo · 07-04-2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justsexxx

SO when AMP was pulling shit when he worked with adult.com erik, lensman etc would be banned too?

more likely, let's hope i wont run paranoid soon cause i'll get more with me

TheDoc · 07-04-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadglni

To me this statement just re-enforces the fact that a program can easily pay $35 or more PPS with no problems. If nobody can see why then it's not my concern.

Most flat rate programs charge $35-$40 a month for total crap sites. Most have x-sales and 2-5 exits. Most mail bomb past members with spam. Most MUST have a high volume of joins to make it worth while. ALL flatrate programs have massive problems with webmaster fraud.

Most programs can pay $35 a sale but most don't want to put up with all the extra BS of running a higher paying flat rate program.

Theo · 07-04-2005, 12:03 PM

I always believed a good revshare will make webmasters more money than almost any PPS. There are PPS programs with awesome members areas that retain and others with horrible ones having same payouts. You are the judge on this.

Also stating that revshare programs are by default those that cannot payout what a PPS can it's a nonsense bullshit.

Varius · 07-04-2005, 01:55 PM

Here's how I see it:

Programs take more risk on PPS, while affiliates have the lower risk. That is why affiliates generally earn less money on PPS than with Revshare.

Let's assume the site's average rebill is 3 months. Commonly, the program might offer up 50-60% of three months membership as the high-end of their PPS scale. Some might only offer 30-40% though, depending on their expenses (as well as greed lol).

For Revshare, they probably offer something in the 40-70% range. This means that on average, a Revshare affiliate WILL earn more than a PPS affiliate. The program has a LOT less risk on Revshare since they will only payout money earned already, while on PPS they take a risk that the person's signups do rebill at their average.

If the program actively monitors their retention rate and revenues, they should be in fine shape offering both Revshare and PPs. I think the only ones who find themselves in trouble, are those who offer more than hey can afford to be 'competitive', or those who set their PPS rates based on variable revenue (such as upsells).

In conclusion, test out the program yourself. If you start on PPS and notice the site does rebill well, start switching some traffic over to Revshare.

That's my comments, I don't think I'm saying anything that isn't already obvious though

undermyspell · 07-04-2005, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul_Rebel

maybe its about time someone to admit wrong and unban Alex

Don't hold your breath. I doubt that will happen. FYI. Alex is fine and is working on a couple of his properties in San Diego remodeling them.

I don't think he misses this board in the least.

Zprogramz · 07-04-2005, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David - PG

The above assumptions were - let me quote it again -How on earth will you bill this at 7.5% with your merchant account?

Gateway fee: 15 cents
Merchant Bank per Transaction: 50 cents (paid on every approved and declined (!) transaction)
Merchant bank: 4-6%
CB Fee: $35-$50
Refund fee: $0-$5

Throw in a couple chargebacks & refunds and you're quickly paying 9%-14% billing costs with your merchant account (assuming you have trials - and the CB, RF & decline numbers are industry standard). A merchant account is *NOT* cheaper than 3rd party on trials. This is a myth, a lie. It doesn't compute. Anything below 15% is good. That's the truth.

I see you in every thread throwing sand into people's eyes like that. Why? What is the purpose of this misinformation?

Chargeback fee is $25 and our chargebacks are less than 1/4 of 1%. Refund fee (30¢) does not happen if there is a chargeback and visa-versa. Not only that but we control our own scrubbing through Netbilling so we get at least 15% better conversions than we ever did with 3rd party processing.

BTW - Our processing rate at the bank is 4.5% and 30¢.

It is not sand. It is the truth. We save money, period!

Z

cjaccardi · 07-04-2005, 11:00 PM

drop the trial sign ups they suck

bigdog · 07-05-2005, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Most flat rate programs charge $35-$40 a month for total crap sites. Most have x-sales and 2-5 exits. Most mail bomb past members with spam. Most MUST have a high volume of joins to make it worth while. ALL flatrate programs have massive problems with webmaster fraud.

Most programs can pay $35 a sale but most don't want to put up with all the extra BS of running a higher paying flat rate program.

your views on pps programs surely has changed from way back

Shap · 08-28-2005, 01:22 PM

This is a great thread. I missed it the first time around and I've only read the first page so far. I have to say MarcDe has showed why he has been as successful as he has been.

body · 08-28-2005, 01:35 PM

why I get redirected?

Turf · 08-29-2005, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by body

why I get redirected?

look at the date the thread started ? ;)

older than dirt but still a very interesting and usefull thread!

Xenophage · 02-18-2006, 12:08 PM

Paysite math this is a good thread

Pornwolf · 02-18-2006, 01:05 PM

Yeah, I'm glad you bumped it. This is a classic thread. Probably one of the top 5 ever on this board.

01-03-2005, 05:19 PM	#313
Kevin2 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 1,429	Thanks Marc De I am mailing you now. __________________ Webmasters Trade Traffic!!!

07-02-2005, 08:13 PM	#324
kernelpanic Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,961	It depends on your traffic, whether or not your surfers will retain long enough for revshare to be more profitable. Personally, revshare usually pays better for me, and I like the steady income. __________________ ZangoCash - Turn Your Traffic Into Ca$h. $.40 Per Install - No Tier

07-02-2005, 10:12 PM	#329
Mako Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The OC baby! Posts: 1,986	There was no need to bump this thread bigdog. Done to death. __________________

07-04-2005, 07:13 AM	#331
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	Wow, this is an old thread with some old info on it.. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

07-04-2005, 07:26 AM	#332
Dollarmansteve Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Location: T.O. Posts: 2,849	there's no money in PPS. __________________ I died.

01-03-2005, 04:05 PM	#304
andrej_NDC Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 7,760	All forget 1 important thing: sales. Some PPS programs have ugly sites, which can convert 1:2000 or worse, but you will see 1:300-500 in their stats. They can start with 2nd page and if the ratios are still shit, they will start counting billing join page clicks, which normally converts 1:3-30(depends on the join page). And there is also difference with the tours, some great sites have 50% CTR to the join(2nd) page and even if they count 2nd page its still high, but other tours can have 10% CTR to 2nd page, so of course the ratios will look a lot better. Only thing you need is to use your own script to count clicks and then check $$$ per click on the same traffic or similar gallery template(steady CTR)

07-02-2005, 05:59 PM	#320
bigdog Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,964	bump for a great thread

07-02-2005, 08:10 PM	#323
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	maybe its about time someone to admit wrong and unban Alex

07-02-2005, 08:15 PM	#325
RogerV Banned! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 12,591	Oh yes our PPS rocks

07-04-2005, 07:48 AM	#333
tranza ICQ: 197-556-237 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: BRASIL !!! Posts: 57,559	Who bumped this thread? __________________ I'm just a newbie.

07-04-2005, 08:42 AM	#336
justsexxx Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 13,723	SO when AMP was pulling shit when he worked with adult.com erik, lensman etc would be banned too? __________________ Questions? ICQ: 125184542

07-04-2005, 12:03 PM	#340
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	I always believed a good revshare will make webmasters more money than almost any PPS. There are PPS programs with awesome members areas that retain and others with horrible ones having same payouts. You are the judge on this. Also stating that revshare programs are by default those that cannot payout what a PPS can it's a nonsense bullshit.

07-04-2005, 01:55 PM	#341
Varius Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 6,890	Here's how I see it: Programs take more risk on PPS, while affiliates have the lower risk. That is why affiliates generally earn less money on PPS than with Revshare. Let's assume the site's average rebill is 3 months. Commonly, the program might offer up 50-60% of three months membership as the high-end of their PPS scale. Some might only offer 30-40% though, depending on their expenses (as well as greed lol). For Revshare, they probably offer something in the 40-70% range. This means that on average, a Revshare affiliate WILL earn more than a PPS affiliate. The program has a LOT less risk on Revshare since they will only payout money earned already, while on PPS they take a risk that the person's signups do rebill at their average. If the program actively monitors their retention rate and revenues, they should be in fine shape offering both Revshare and PPs. I think the only ones who find themselves in trouble, are those who offer more than hey can afford to be 'competitive', or those who set their PPS rates based on variable revenue (such as upsells). In conclusion, test out the program yourself. If you start on PPS and notice the site does rebill well, start switching some traffic over to Revshare. That's my comments, I don't think I'm saying anything that isn't already obvious though __________________ Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail

07-04-2005, 11:00 PM	#344
cjaccardi Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 406	drop the trial sign ups they suck

08-28-2005, 01:22 PM	#346
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	This is a great thread. I missed it the first time around and I've only read the first page so far. I have to say MarcDe has showed why he has been as successful as he has been.

08-28-2005, 01:35 PM	#347
body Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 5,007	why I get redirected? __________________ CamJoker.com

02-18-2006, 12:08 PM	#349
Xenophage Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 12,122	Paysite math this is a good thread

02-18-2006, 01:05 PM	#350
Pornwolf Drunk and Unruly Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 22,712	Yeah, I'm glad you bumped it. This is a classic thread. Probably one of the top 5 ever on this board. __________________ I've trusted my sites to them for over a decade... Webair, bitches.