DTK

sorry for the double post above....the board has slowed to a crawl at the moment.

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DTK

.........

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Arguing whether the Democratic or Republican party is better is like debating which steaming pile of shit is slightly less stinky.

Marc De

I highly doubt its all hush hush hush... The honest and up front operators will tell you exactly what you do and do NOT get credit for... As long as its out in the open and disclosed its not even close to a 'shave'.

Rui

Firefox and Win XP sp2 and no pop-up whatsoever here..

andrej_NDC

it dont work in firefox

Alex From San Diego

So do you pay on every processor as well as checks? Or do you just pay on the primary. Also do you pay on foreign traffic joins?

Just curious....Thanks Marc

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iBanker

I would also like to know if most PPS programs pay on checks as well. Anyone here know? I checked a couple of the TOS for a couple programs, but maybe I'm looking in the wonrg place.

I can see one aspect of it, if a webmaster knew that he had 100% US/Canada Traffic, and a demographic on how much of that was CC processors (lets say 80-90%) it could be profitable. Would like to know others thoughts on it.

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afx

Nice thread, let's give it a bump

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bigdog

some programs pay on checks, but they offer a lower payout on them

Oliver Klozov

I must be seeing things...... a thread on GFY that actually has to do with business

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Lensman

Of course PPS is a superior model for affiliates. As MarcDe showed any program that offers it has to be highly optimized. Programs that don't, do revshare.

DTK

Lens, I'm sure you're spot on for most affiliates. Fast cash, here and now.

Personally, I'm looking for long-term money. An annuity of a sort, as Far-L put it. And that's why I look to promote high-quality revshare sites.

And to dig deeper for a sec, I'm sure I'm leaving alot of money on the table by promoting other people's sites instead of building and promoting my own....but at this point my own paysites (while certainly an option) just don't seem like the right fit for my overall plan.

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Arguing whether the Democratic or Republican party is better is like debating which steaming pile of shit is slightly less stinky.

Drake

This thread is like the energizer bunny.

It seems to sum up what has already been said in other threads regarding revshare and PPS.

Revshare solely relies on retention for it's revenue base. PPS relies on retention as well as a number of other methods including cross sales, upsells, and exits (often multipe pop-ups when the surfer doesn't join a site and closes the original browser).

Both methods are ok and I think the one that is more profitable is determined on a site by site basis. A fully 'optimized' PPS will definitely generate a lot for an affiliate if it converts well. We have to be careful when we say 'optimized'. As MarcDe pointed out, many sites 3 years ago were 'optimizing' traffic using multiple cross sales to be able to pay $50-$70 on PPS. Clearly good for affiliates and program owners, but not for surfers. Those days appear to be over.

I think the PPS sites of today are much better than in the past. The fact that chargebacks aren't a problem seems to indicate that one cross sell is perfectly reasonable to the surfer. I also find nothing wrong with exits as a way of optimizing traffic (only looking at it from a webmaster point of view, it's annoying because you don't intend to buy, but you get pop-ups, lol). Probably 1-3 is reasonable. The company I work for has and will continue to utilize both models.

I think that part of the reason there are supporters and detractors of each model is because of a different philosophy behind each. Revshare seems to be more geared to focus on quality for the sake of retention, no gimmicks that is 'believed' to annoy surfers, and a philosophy of not trying to juice each surfer for every dime. PPS seems more geared toward extracting as much as possible from the surfer at every corner. There is a good argument for both methods. An argument for revshare is that you build trust among your members and they stay long and are happy. An argument for PPS is that it's best to get as much as you can in as little time possible. Why? Because nobody can tell see into the future and who says you'll be able to make similar money a month or two from now. In other words, make haste (as much haste as possible) while the sun shines.

Obviously the other point of contention was that revshare has less reason to shave than PPS, because of the math required to make PPS work. The truth is, both types of programs can shave. We can say that revshare has less reason to, but that doesn't mean a revshare program won't. Wherever you find greed, you'll find things like shaving, and it makes no difference if it's revshare or PPS. In fact, we've seen examples of both right here on GFY. We saw some CCBill revshare programs not paying beyond a certain number of rebills (and thanks to the transparency of the CCBill system, affiliates were able to see which programs did this and which didn't) and we also saw a PPS program (PIBCash) shaving.

We've seen in this thread that the math for PPS can work if it's done properly. I don't think that there can be any doubt that it's a more difficult method than revshare. The more elements you add into your math, the trickier it will become and the more capital required to pull it off means it's that much more difficult. However, all things being equal, it can and does work for many honest companies.

So what do I as an affiliate conclude from this? My conclusion (and mine might be wrong, and you may not agree with mine), is that I would personally promote trusted sites that offer both options, revshare and PPS. That way I can compare the results of each method for any particular program and see the trend in which one is more profitable for me. I'm sure the results will be different for different sites and different programs depending on the price and quality of the sites.

A thread like this should have been started literally years ago. Actually threads like this were started before, but only on this occasion did somebody from the PPS spectrum of things step up with something tangible (thanks Marc) instead of the usual silence or refutations of having to shave. Now those judgements can be put to rest for the most part.

Far-L

I don't need to quote you in this reply to agree with your summation but I would like to present a few opinions. I think that the high chargebacks and resulting processing backlash has way more to do with the scandalous methods of PPS programs that operated unethically and created FTC scrutiny. (Anyone want to talk about the Babenet deal? Or the issues CE and Kara's had?). IMO, the degree of sponsor as well as affiliate fraud is much higher in the PPS side than with revshare.

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Drake

Agreed

*message too short so I have to type this

Toni_N

nice spreadsheet, thread bookmarked

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GFY regular.

Alex From San Diego

Mike....excellent response.

PPS and Revshare are relatively the same. There isn't some magic tweak that you can do with PPS versus revshare. They both work by the same fundamentals such as;

Surfer comes to site A, joins or doesn't join.
If he joins, both can utilize a cross sale.
Once the join is approved, he is redirected to an approval page where you can attempt to upsell him on another site or a product.
If he declines, the purchaser enters the members area where the content is delivered along with upsells to other sites or products.
Once the member cancels, you have an opportunity to offer him a discounted rate to continue to stay a member and worse case scenario, you have his email to try to solicit him into joining another site or purchase a product.

If the surfer doesn't join, he is presented with various consoles in an attempt to purchase another site or simply capture his email by him opting in.

As you can see there is nothing different that you can do with one model vs. the other. Sure there are variances of how to set up your members area and how to upsell but that is about it. It isn't rocket science.

After taking a sample of 1500 new joins this is what I determined and would venture to say is exactly how PPS model can and does work.

Out of 1500 joins, the breakdown was this:

501 joins came from typin/www
160 joins came from check processing
252 joins came from foreign traffic

The 587 remaining joins came from primary or secondary processing.

1500 joins initially generated ~$13,600.00
Those 1500 joins so far have generated an additional ~$20,450.00 in rebills after month one giving those joins so far a value of $22.70 each. That value for each join will increase as the months go by "X" number of rebills.

Here is where the difference between the two models come into play.

On revshare, typically you are paid on EVERY join that comes through the system. I said typically.

On PPS, I could easily pay 30.00/join, if I ONLY paid on primary and secondary processor transactions.

587 joins X $30.00 = $17,610.00 in payouts.

After one month, I have already collected ~$34,050.00

Some might say, but the affiliates conversions will look like shit. No they won't if you count second page uniques or even worse join page uniques.

Typically revshare programs count 1st page uniques. Again, I said typically

I always find it important to count your own clicks that you send to a PPS program as well as a revshare program. Then you can do the math and really see what your actual click is worth.

Now if I was to offer PPS, would I disclose what I will pay on? You bet I would because in the end, it is YOUR traffic that you are sending to me and you have every right to know how you will be compensated for that traffic with either program.

This business is nothing more than a numbers game. There is no magic or in depth alogorithms for PPS to work. It is how you want to slice the pie and distribute it.

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xclusive

Very interesting graph i'll be analyzing it and thinking for hours now...

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Varius

I think PPS is a completely viable program option.

You don't even have to complicate matters, estimate everything conservatively and throw out any extra revenue that isnt from your membership price (cross-sales, upsells, etc...)

Let's say you charge 24.95/mth and your average member rebills twice.

24.95 x 3 x 0.85 (we'll take off 15% processing fees to be conservative, this can be 5%-10% though)

1 average member = $63.63 in revenue

If you offer $25-$40 PPS you still have enough for you which should easily cover the bandwidth fees and any potential refunds/chargebacks that are incurred, while making profit.

Add in the revenue from the extras and that's a bonus

For sites with very low rebills, unless they make a killing on the extras, they are probably the only ones who have to worry about offering high PPS payouts

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Varius

As for Revshare, I think it caters to a different crowd, but can make the affiliate more money...the longer your average rebill, the more he can make.

From what I've seen, people who trust you or are in it for the long-term payday, go Revshare. People who are new to your program or are looking for the most/quickest cash they can get go PPS.

Now PPE and PPC are another matter entirely

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Alex From San Diego

It is not the value of a member that matters but more the value of each and every join regardless if they stay a member or not...there is a big difference.

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milambur

Very interesting thread. Nice to see some actually interesting posts for a change.

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Varius

??

Sorry it's early morning for me...I don't quite get what you are trying to say ?

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bigdog

god #2 speaks

slapass

Alex I understand you are protecting your business model but after you have shown that PPS can work with the numbers you provided, why are you still claiming they have to reduce the sales they pay out on? If I can make more money with you then I promote you. BUT if I can make more money with you on revshare then they you SHOULD pay me in PPS. I like win/win but this is business and most of us like PPS more. So why would you not create a win/win and go PPS?

You run a clean program and you are not maxing on the surfer. If you retention is being helped by that then you are winning. If not then maybe you need to look at your level of sale options.

The simple fact is aggressive programs make more money. They attract more webmasters and reduce costs through volume. This game is not so much rigged as defined.

Having said all of this I need to send some trafic your way.

Alex From San Diego

if you have a 1000 joins

350 convert to full members and continue to rebill, there is a big difference on what those 350 members are worth over time versus the original 1000 joins because on PPS, you pay on the 1000 joins not just the 350 members.

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Alex From San Diego

Thanks Slapass...

We will be offering PPS right after the new year. Still have a few details to implement.

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We are what we repeatedly do.-Aristotle

Varius

Ah yes that I understand you now and it was taken into account in my post. I mentioned average rebill, across the site.

For example:

1000 signups

400 rebill 0 times
100 rebill 1 time
100 rebill 2 times
100 rebill 3 times
100 rebill 4 times
200 rebill 5 times

This makes your rebill average of 2.0

Some affiliates will fall below this average ofcourse while being paid more than they bring in with PPS. However, across the site, if your payouts are based on your average of all affiliates, you should be cool.

Now with trials involved, your calculation is altered a little bit but logic is the same.

Basically the keyword of my post is *average*

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Varius

We do pay on echecks, I've found the retention to be about the same as with cc.

Not sure about adult programs though especially if they offer small $ trials first.

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Marc De

The only thing you got right in this post is this business is a numbers game, otherwise the rest of it was a sloppy guess.

501 of 1500 sign ups coming from www - no way in HELL!!!! The check number seemed ok, a lil high but ok, and I'm not sure what foreign sign ups have to do with anything. If its a sign up, its a sign up. ARS counts 1st page raw and we credit on all sign ups except check (with a new option coming to get credited on checks for $35 per sign up instead of $40 for cc only). However, just like any revshare or other program you can not credit type in / www sign ups because they are not referred by a webmaster. Nice try on the spin!

Please rereview your own spreadsheet and rereview what I already wrote. You don't need to only credit 500 and some sign ups of 1500 to make it work. Sorry if my post seems a little abrasive but after very DEFINITIVE proof from yourself and my comments you still try to twist and turn this to show that "Oh yeah, I can see how PPS works if you only credit 1/3 of the sign ups" C'mon dude! PPS works well over $35 paying on ALL sign ups.

Finally PPS is the most widely used by affiliates for a big reason, it overall will make more money for webmasters. Even if you promote a killer 60/40 program - to compete with a $35 PPS program the overall member value of the revshare would have to be $58.33 and that would take 12+ months to achieve and without paying on x sells as well nearly IMPOSSIBLE in today's market!!!. Point being, it'll take over a year for you to get the same $35 that the PPS program is paying. Oh yeah, and don't forget, the revshare program owner is basking in the profits of consoles, upsells, x sells, emails and other income opportunities... Just because its revshare doesn't mean he is sharing ALL the revenue with you!

Varius

I have to disagree with this point. Our affiliates make more with Revshare and not in 12 months.

Someone at 50% Revshare with a site charging 24.95 per month would make $37.00 in 3 months (join + 2 rebills). Any further rebills and he makes more money.

NOTE: My view is from a dating site perspective, where we don't use trials. However even on an adult paysite, I don't see how it can take 12 months+ for the member to be worth $60.00, unless your site charges a very low membership fee (as some sites do).

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swedguy

FYI. The links on the popup doesn't work in IE6 with only Googlebar.


Btw. This is one heck of a thread. Definitely worth reading over and over

Marc De

Disclaimer - I know nothing of the dating site market.

Yes, if you took 50% of the member value of all those members that made it past a trial in adult it would be FAR more than $35, however, you have to average in all those folks that don't. Also realize you said you charge monthly only at $24.95 - again even in adult at monthly only the value is greater I don't know what to tell you but your knowledge of member values in adult is very skewed and incorrect. $60 member values are things of the past in adult.

Varius

What is a decent average of the number of people who will rebill atleast once after signing up?

In dating, it's atleast 50% (for us anyhow)

I can see how $60 members would be near impossible though if adult only does 10%-20% or so.

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andrej_NDC

weird, I have IE6 and google pop blocker, too, and it works...

andrej_NDC

I made $65 per sale with TB in 2004 on revshare, I choose mostly revshare when a sponsor offers it.

whatif_3

[QUOTE=Marc De] ARS counts 1st page raw and we credit on all sign ups except check QUOTE]

marc, thanks for letting us pick your brain, want to let you know it is appreciated

why would you count front page raw rather than uniqeus? would that not unnessarily inflate your conversin ratios with all the surfers that just clikc around in your network? i know that many programs count front page unique, if not second page, and so forth

Varius

[QUOTE=whatif_3]We will show both in our new version of our aff program.

Showing raws inspires trust, as the affiliate can see the traffic he's sending. Uniques are used for the ratios, though.

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Alex From San Diego

Marc, I stress I'm not here to argue but rather to discuss. To tell me 501 www/typein is BS is the same to call me a liar. I have no reason to lie. I pulled a random period of joins and disected the info. Plain and simple. Nothing more nothing less. I'm not calling you a liar either. Your numbers are your numbers. I take them for face value and assume you are telling us all the truth.

No one can tell me that my collection of sites is worse than any other programs collection of sites therefore that is the reason I can't offer PPS.
No one can also tell me that I am a rookie and don't have the knowledge to pull off a PPS program.

Numbers are numbers and will always be numbers no matter how you transpose them or display them.

There is no reason to say one person is BSing and another isn't. This is a discussion and not an attack on either model. I can't stress this enough.

I myself would rather be involved in these type of threads rather then the all to many "Would you hit it" threads : ))

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bigdog

Someone needs to steal some hair from MarcDe and clone him, and the clone can run their affilate program

swedguy

Never mind. It works now, even though I tried it 3 times before. Odd.

Varius

Alex,

Just curious what happened in Feb? I see your stock 'IMAG' flew up then came right back down ?

Was it news that fell-through or something ?

Just asking, because at the current price perhaps I'd buy some and hope you get it back up there

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Theo

Keith, that's not Alex's ticket. If I remember well it will be activated very soon.

Varius

Ahh...I read this:

"We have registered a Form SB-2 with the Securities and Exchange Commission ( United States ) to have our stock become publicly traded on the NASDAQ OTC:BB (Nasdaq Over the Counter Bulletin Board). Additionally, we will be filing for tradability with the NASD once registration with the Securities and Exchange Commission has been finalized. We anticipate our shares will be traded under the symbol ?IMAG? during the first quarter of 2005."

and went to check it incase it came out earlier than Q1 2005.....guess someone else got their symbol then and they will come out with a different one....

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Alex From San Diego

You are correct Soul....we are not trading yet. Currently still in the final phase of our year end financial statements.

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angelsofporn

The amount of www joins you get totally depends on the quality of your site and content. With Angels of Porn the www joins are very very high because it is a great site with 100% exclusive content and it has been around so long that most surfers join 3-4 times in a year once they have joined once.
You wont see that with 99% of sites out there using the same content everyone else is using. It's one of the perks of laying way more cash at the beginning.

Alex From San Diego

Very true. I see plenty of joins that join multiple times over a period of a few months.

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iBanker

You are exactly right. That is what happened. The US Securties and Exchange Commission does not issue the sybol based on any SB-2 filing approval. Once you get approval based on your filing from the SEC, a company has to file a 15c2-11 with the NASD. This is a full blown disclosure statement, that much like the SEC, must undergo a vigorous comment period, where the finiancial and market regulators get to, excuse the phrase, "look up our skirt".

The NASD now issues all symbols, and they don't so it like they used to where if you owned a Dairy Company such as "California Dairy Processor, Inc.", you could request the symbol "MILK", they started issuing symbols based on your name, thus Image 2000 Multimedia, Inc., would have been "IMAG". Thus, we won't be getting tha symbol. Hope that clears up the confusion and explain why we anticipated such a symbol.

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Far-L

Feel free to question my math... I was a lit major for petessake:

If someone converts 35% of trials and retains roughly 30% each month of those initial joins:

100 trials, 35 conversions to join....

Month 1 = 35 joins @ $30 per join earns $1050
Month 2 = 14 rebills of those initial 35 joins earns $420
Month 3 = about 4 more rebills earns $120
Month 4 = about 1 or 2 more rebills for $30 to $60
4 month total: roughly $1650

Those initial 35 join would earn an average of about $47 bucks per join ($1650 divided by 35 initial joins with 30% retention over four months). Subtract the cost of the sign up ($25) and you have $22 then divide that by 4 months and the sponsor is earning close to $5.50 bucks a month per join.

So say the sponsor is paying $20 to $25 per sign up...

Those 100 trial sign ups cost $2000 to $2500. After 4 months the sponsor is not even close to breaking even. Now is when all the PPS sponsors say "well we make it up on xsells", "you have to know how to monetize" and "you have to know what you are doing", and my favorite, "you need the volume to make it work".

Most of the PPS programs I know of have had financial problems the moment their traffic conversions thinned out or retention dropped. Even with outstanding up sells, excellent filtering, not paying on dialers etc. the sponsor is still going to be running on the fumes of margins...and oftentimes ethics will be the first thing to vaporize in those conditions...imo, the only way to make it work is to lower the pps payout considerably, imo.

PPS, the way many companies do it, imo, seems a very shaky way to run the shop. I am not saying that Marc De can't make it work. I am saying that others that make the claim that it works are working the hype angle and they don't necessarily hold some sort of secret webmaster knowledge that makes them more profitable. Those are the ones I would ask for an audit from.

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Alex From San Diego

I think you and I are on the same page Far-L. Both work like I said earlier but it is how you go about cutting the pie up. Six of one, half dozen of the other is all the same. There is no magic marketing scheme to make up the difference in upsells, cross sales...etc....

I'd like to speak with you Far-L...hit me up on ICQ when you get a chance #74296267

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