Bobo

Do you really think that a bunch of guys hijacked planes and killed themselves and thousands of Americans because they were crazy fanatics???

C'mon, that's more than unlikely. Obviously their is much more to the story than we know. I've heard and read a variety of possiblities.

The problem is that if you take history as any example of present day issues you'll notice that America (sadly as it may be) is ALWAYS behind the problems occuring overseas as well as on it's own soil. America ALWAYS seems to be involved wherever money is to be made. America will denounce dictatorships in countries where they have no influence, but will remain silent on dictatorships that they have a vested interest in (Egypt, Iran etc. etc.).

America gave the Arabs the weapons they are using. America is biased in favour of Israel...always has been. Why? Because Jews have influence in American politics. They are a wealthy and very powerful minority in America. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning Jews. I'm just saying that this is likely ONE of many reasons why America supports Israel.

I try to tell myself that several thousand innocent Americans died because of crazed religious fanatics but it just doesn't wash. Years from now we'll discover that America was in Palestain fucking shit up to get oil, allowing children to die, victimizing innocent Arab populations for America's own gain and finally a group of Arabs wanted to give America the finger so they crashed planes in NY.

Please DO NOT get on my case about hating America or Jews. Keep your biases away from the keyboard. I love America and capitalism. I'm rewarded daily from it. I also have nothing against Jews. I have the utmost respect for Jews - they obviously have many of the best and brightest in the world.

Do you really think America is innocent? I say bullshit. It would be great to say America are the 'good guys' fighting off the 'bad guys' (Arabs), but I'm sorry but the world isn't that black and white.

FlyingIguana

the states have stood up for many countries or groups of ppl. those arabs who hijacked those planes were crazy. there's no doubt about that.

maybe they should keep their nose out of world politics and let these civil wars go on.

Living For Today

what the fuck is wrong with u?

Bobo

Both of you guys are displaying that same fucking arrogance that people HATE Americans for!

What people have the Americans stood up for??? Name one???

Bobo

C'mon fly! Yeah, all of the poor nations in the world are able to carry on Civil War. None of them can produce guns, tanks, bombs, BUT THEY ALL HAVE THEM TO FIGHT WITH.

Where do they get the weapons to fight???

If you look further, you'll find that their was already an American presence/intervention preceeeding the civil wars that you see all over the globe today. You may also find that such wars only ensued after America got what it wanted then left those nations poor as they are, to fight for the scraps.

FlyingIguana

vietnamese, kuwait, ppl in former yugoslavia, just to name a few.

get ur head out of ur ass. i'm not american, but they send their ppl over to these countries to try to help ppl. in the process they end up with dead americans.

Bobo

For Godsake Fly! Vietname? Were you born in the same century as the rest of us?

America went to war there for NO LEGITIMATE REASON. What resulted??? Lots of dead Americans and Vietnamese. What are you talking about??? HELP???

Nothing was resolved and nothing was gained. Pick up a history textbook.

FlyingIguana

they gave them the weapons so they can help defend themselves against other nations. what do u think they gave these weapons away so they can go killing innocent ppl?

i was born in canada, and they were protecting i believe it was vietnamese in the south or something? if they didnt go over tons of vietnamese would have been killed. maybe u should pick up a history textbook...

Bobo

Kuwait??? Aw fuck! How did America HELP Kuwait??? By protecting America's own interests in oil there??? C'mon man. Are you serious???

You think America gives a shit about ppl in Kuwait??? Hell no!

Nedder

Try WWII you fuck.

Take a history lesson before you go spouting off, dumbass. You love to reap the wonderful bounty of the U.S. yet you stab your mother in the back with your pathetic and skewed notions of equality and retribution.

Typical non-thinking piss from a non-thinking pissant.

I just hope you realize that without the U.S. this world would be chaos, and you wouldn't be able to exercise your right be such an idiot.

Nz

FlyingIguana

and i suppose they were protecting their own interest in oil in the former yugoslavia as well?

i'm done with this thread, its obvious ur an idiot.

hyper

does this answer your fucking question?

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Gemini

My old man says to take your troublemaking *sses right on back across the ocean, stay there, stuff the manifast destiny, and they will deal with problems here. It Do belong to the Native Americans anyhow.

Heeeeeeeeepppppp me I yam being held prisoner as a squaw! Ooops, another white mans word to degradate the female Indian wife.

Show me the M16's that weren't stolen that the Arabs have. Show me the other weapons. Give proof. We don't manufacture Ak's in ANY of their forms in any mass production. If you KNEW weapons and actually LOOKED at the pictures of the confiscated weapons in those countries you'd see they are Chinese in origin for the most part. Guess where thy come from? D'ooh!

Show of hands... How many of ya were over to vist the near east to discuss this face to face? I'm sure SOME of you understand that statement but nahhh why do that and get your tail shot off?

Don't have negative things to say unless you EARNED the right to say it.

And yeah the jerks that did that BS WERE crazy. Read back in history as to WHY the Colt 45 auto was even MADE. Read the truth behind the atomic bomb being made. Read why the Winchester rifle was first thought up. Maybe you'll get a clue.

Bobo

Nedder, fuck off!

WWII. Let me tell you about WWII. A little courtesy history lesson for you.

America joined the war LATE. Why did they even join the war effort at all???

Aside from fighting off a GLOBAL threat - the Nazi's probably wouldn't want Americans around anymore than they would against other enemy nations, France Britain etc.

WWII was the war that MADE America. America was the only nation unaffected by the war. Europe was fucked and the great nations (Britain and France) were bankrupt. Through loans they financed the remainder of America's war effort. It was when these nations repaid America during and after the war effort that America became a rich nation, the leading nation in the world.

Don't go around talking shit when you don't know enough about the topic. LEAVE THE ARROGANCE AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD!

Bobo

Guys, please re-read my first post. You're now attacking me as if I'm Anti-American. I'm NOT.

I'm playing the devil's advocate - ya know, taking the unpopular positiion in this argument.

Showing photos of a tragedy like Sept 11th is hearbreaking Hyper. However, it doesn't lend any credence to people being crazy.

if somebody killed my family member, I would fucking kill his entire family. I wouldn't call myself crazy. I'd call myself angry.

Bobo

Showing pictures like that is also great propaganda. It makes you angry and it makes you want to blow of f the head of all of the 'enemy', the 'bad guys'

Why is it so hard for you to believe that America has ANY RESPONSIBILITY AT ALL in the matter? America is a nation that had subjected it's own ppl to nuclear radiation, allowed soldiers to die in Vietnam when they KNEW they couldn't win (listen to the Kissinger tapes), allowed it's own people to contract diseases to study it's affects.

C'mon, let's be more fair-minded about this. Not all Americans nor are all of Americans policies Saintly. Nor is the enemy all good.

Fuck, I hate any religion that tells women they can't dress the way they want. I believe in democracy and free speech and would tell any nation that suppresses me to fuck off!

I'm like you guys but I'm just a bit more open minded than you.

FlyingIguana

u are anti american, u twist all facts around to make the states look like the bad guys. they do flex their muscles a bit too much, but they do a ton of good around the world.

LiveDose

Bobo while you statements are I'm sure well intentioned you are very naive and idealistic. Of course the US "plays" behind the scenes and runs a lot of the good and bad that goes on in this world. As an American you should be happy about that. We(Americans) are all very lucky not to have to know all the truths and see what is really happening behind the scenes because I am sure it is ugly. This is just reality and is what any existing super power would do. Just be glad it isn't China or the Old Soviet Union playing this roll.

The truth is the world is not some fine tuned machine that runs itself and our alliances with countries such as Israel exist for many reasons. Some apparent and some not so apparent.

On a final note isn't it hypocritical to tell other people to keep their biases away from the keyboard while you say what you want and post your opinions? If you lived in some of the other countries you mentioned you wouldn't even be allowed to voice your opinions.

Anyways take the devil's advocate and stick it. That's not what we need right now. We have enough critics around the globe without American's jumping on the bandwagon. Why don't you go burn a flag.

LD

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Bobo

Trust me, I'm not Anti-American. I benefit from the American way of life.

I depise dictatorships with their rules and religious bullshit. Especially a regime that oppresses women the way the Arab world seems to.

I haven't twisted any facts that I'm aware of friend. Tell me where I've gone wrong.

Look, it would be nice to imagine that America uses it's great power to do all good. This isn't a fairy tale though dude, this is the real world.

Nedder

Bobo you moron. You don't even know what questions you are asking.

You ask what nations did the U.S. ever stick up for and I fucking told you bitch.

If you are asking what nations did the U.S. ever stick up for that the U.S. didnt have any fucking national interest in sticking up for, then you don't need a history lesson you need a labotomy.

Did we have an interest in Kuwait? You bet. Did we put an end to the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait in a matter of days, you bet your fucking ASS WE DID. Now call it what you want, sticking up or protecting our interests, it was what it was.

You are the worst kind of slime. You'll look at black and say its white just to prove your point. Keep on talkin', your simplistic arguments make you a fool's martyr.

Nz

Paul Markham

America has done a lot of good, but it has messed up sometimes.

Carnegie became rich supplying the Germans the steel to build their arms. They went into Vietnam because the arms industry sold the idea that these rice farmers were going to turn the world into commies.

Kuwait was about protecting the worlds oil supply. No one wants Saddam in Saudi. They have done very good work in mediating in Northern Ireland.

They stood back and watched while Pol Pot murdered millions, supplied guns to right wing terrorist in South America. There is also evidence they turned a blind eye to drug dealings there.

Yugoslavia was a joint UN action and they have done good work there. The Islamic/Jewish/Israel situation needs to be sorted. But it will not be done while Amarica iis so biased towards the Jews who turned up in Israel 50 years ago and decided it belonged to them. And have continued to take whatever they wanted from the people who have lived there for centuries, including the native Jews who the dispise.

It's a far to complex a topic for the likes of us on this board.
Lets face we have problems deciding which beer to drink.

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Bobo

Livedose, the first half of your post was fucking poetic. That's exactly what I'm saying.

I apologize if as you said, it's the wrong time to hear these things. But understand, when is the right time to hear the truth?

If we want some good to come out of this and make the right choices, politically and militarily, don't you think it would be wise to know the truth. That way we can come to a better solution and faster, and leave more people happy.

Any other way will breed resentment, hate, and perpetuate the unresolved issues that are hidden in lies.... instead of the truth.

LiveDose

You're using the wrong argument. Which one of the people in the twin towers killed any of the fucks over in "Palestine"... Apples and oranges... So now basically since we have the means we should go and kill everyone over there, right?

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Gemini

BoBo... where do you live? What Native American Tribe was killed or other wise displaced for you to BE there? Don't harp about other places if you won't take credit for what was done in your own back yard.

SleazyDream

you know, I'm not even American but there is ONE FATAL FLAW to your logic that makes the REST crumble. The middle east accounts for only 8% of the ENTIRE USA oil consumption. That's it. Penuts. Canada sells them more. Meaningless ,PENUTS - especially with the former SOVIET UNION countries now selling oil, and MORE of it then all the middle east has - so in the future that percentage will go down. Also new technology allows oil off the coast of texas to be drilled, and there is more oil in the gulf of mexico than all the middle eastern countries put together. American soil, they don't even need to leave their own back yard now for oil.

Here's the probelm, middle eastern countries were in the STONE and BRONZE age 20 years ago. They were DRAGGED, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century by americans and other 1st world countries and they still are adapting to it and as such they are having MAJOR problems as it was just too fast a culture shock. Here in north america we've had 100 years to SLOWLY adjust to technology, and even then it wasn't easy. Imagine ramming all that into 20 or even 10 years. Huge huge culture shock and you gota expect some backlash from it as peole try to define themselves within a new society.

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Bobo

Look,

Where was America during Rwanda??? They didn't have an interest in that poor fucked up nation so they didn't stop the genocide.

I guess they choose when to be good and when to allow entire populations to be massacred.

America is very good (I think it's the very best nation on earth) and also the worst.

spacedog

Bobo.. you really must be retarded..

how could you say America is the only nation not affected by WWII..

Peal Harbor was attacked you asshole... ..

No legitimate reason to get involved in vietnam huh?

US was allied with France who ASKED for our help as an allie..

After the us got involved.. the french backed out of it.. but it became difficult for the us to withdraw once the soviet backed chinese got involved..

Bobo

Sleazy, wow dude, thanks for getting into the conversation. I've never seen you on a political thread

You know what though Sleazy. If America wants something from Canada that Canada won't give, America would even go to war with you, the friendly neighbours. Hey, water is getting scarce and their have already been issues about America wanting water from Canada (the Great Lakes). Be careful how you Canadian handle the situation.

Nedder

I gotta admit, I think Bobo's trying to win the DVD, I didnt realize people could be that dumb?!!

But your last comment took the cake. If we "want to make the right choices politically and militarily"?

What the fuck are the right choices. Are you so well versed in foreign policy that you know the ripple effect that occurs with the slightest action or reaction?

I know people like you. You love "America" because its made you so much money blah blah, but you have no idea what decisions go into you being able to drive your phat car or heat your phat house, or feed your FAT stomach.

Yeah you've got the answers, you know the truth boy. World is just so simple and easy to call out the US as the big bad villain in everything because we look out for our own interests.

I guess thats the beauty of America, my brothers die to keep assholes like you from paying $2 a gallon for gas. I know who'd be the first one crying.

Nz

Bobo

Livedose,

I was only saying that I personally believe that Sept 11th was an act of retaliation, and NOT of a crazy group of people ramming planes into buildings.

The people in those buidings didn't kill anybody, but Arabs were being killed daily with weapons provided by the US to Israel. Wouldn't you be angry if somebody kept giving your enemy the guns to shoot you with???

FlyingIguana

go to war with canada? rofl, omg u are too much. first off if the states attacked canada there would be wwIII, second off the states are not that aggressive.

the states are always bitching about something with us. thats nothing new, its not like they're gonna send their army up here to spank our bums or something

Bobo

Nedder,

Stop it with that shit! I'm the one saying it's NOT SIMPLE. You're the one saying it is simple. America Good, Arabs Bad. I'm saying it's NOT that simple. I'm saying that the best resolution will come from admitting to the good and the bad of each side.

spacedog

sept 11th occured because of a radical religious fanaticism with extremeist ideology ..

Bobo

Anybody that disagrees with the "America is good and should fucking nuke the enemy" attitude is branded an American hater, or called dumb. That's a great way to silence opponents in a nation of free speech.

I've seen the "lets nuke them" posted all over this board and nobody making shit about that. That would be the dumbest idea and anybody who thinks nuking innocent women and children is ok just because they live elsewhere is a fukcing dumbass!

Why not be fair in who you attack on this issue?

Nedder

I'm smart enough not to try and outlast the naive.

Nz

LiveDose

Nedder hit it right on the head. The US is always getting attacked for this while every country in the world does the same. Everyone wants it both ways. All those "educated" Arab experts on tv want the US to back down one week. Then when their terrorist brothers and sisters are getting their asses shot up they want the US to step in. They are fuckin' two faced whiney bitches. Just like the fake fraud of a president in Afghanistan who is letting the higher up Taliban get away. Then he wants our money. This is exactly why US black ops has to do things behind the scenes. Alway have, always will.

You motherfuckers out there stop taking our tax payer collected hand outs from the American people then we will listen to your arguments and take you seriously. You want our money then shut the fuck up. You have no right to complain about anything. That's what I say to other countries who want to bash this great land...

KMAN, where the fuck are you dude?

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Gemini

The bottom line in some of this arguement is we can't fight EVERYones fight. So the elected idiots make decisions. Maybe it would be better if it were put to a popular vote but in most cases there isn't time.

H*ll we can't even control street gang fights... so we should be able to deal with every spat that two countries have? Hmmmmmmm that would mean enforced military duty for EVERY US Citizen in order to have the man power to even attempt that idea.

I'm betting that 90+% of you have never even SEEN the inside of a recruiters office let alone remember the lottery to see who went to Nam next.

LiveDose

I agree BOBO probably will get the DVD, but he deserves it for starting this thread. I'm gonna have to close my browser in 10 so I can get some work done... Otherwise i'll be here all night long.

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Bobo

I love you all and want you to go fuck youselves good for me tonight.

I don't want to argue this anymore.

My argument is very simple and stands against what you've all said.

America is not perfect. I love it though just as much as you all do.

So stay off my case. Naive??? Me??? Hardly. The only people who are naive are the ones that believe America's hands are clean.

I'm not in the mood to keep this going, ok?

Now, go to bed!

Bobo

Gemini babe! Your last post was a true gem. That's what I'm saying only you said it more eloquently. I'm sure glad females can voice their opinions here!!! (see, I'm on your side)

SleazyDream

America did go to war with us - we won. Check your history books. Not kidding either.

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Paul Markham

You are forgetting the 70s when they put up the oil price and the world went into recession. Except the arms industry who just sold them more guns. Is that what you mean by dragging them into the 20th Century?

Like I said this is far to complex a topic for this board.
Politicians can not solve it so what chance have we.

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SleazyDream

in the 70's they supplied a lot more (percentage wise) then they do today. new technology has opend up a LOT more oil in new places unheard of in the 70's

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Bobo

Sleazy, I'm aware of that war. But you wouldn't be able to find it in a history book in America. The text I used was imported....from Canada

LiveDose

Politicians are a bunch of spineless whores, that's why they would never even come close to solving an issue like this. But man oh man that is another thread all together...

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Bobo

Charly,

You're thread about not being able to choose a beverage made me giggle.

While there is some truth in that, I do think it's important for us to discuss matters like this because they affect all of us whether we want it to or not.

We should discuss it whether we are a CEO of a corporation or a simple smut peddler. It's important.

The decisions that our leaders make affect us also. We reap the consequences of the choices they make.

Dualcpu

Most of the world is in chaos.

Why don't we all stop blaming the US for everything that happens? Surely they are involved in alot of issues, but so are most of the countries - although be it on a smaller scale.

Also, namecalling is a sign of weakness.

This sure looks like a nice attempt to win the DVD player, this USA subject is so SENSITIVE to alot of people.

Bobo

Livedose,

Thanks for your last post. I can't help but use it as an opportunity to further my initial argument. Here goes:

Politicians are spineless assholes. Therefore they make choices, often bad choices because they are fuckups. Those choices include bad policies that fuck up other nations and make them hate America.

Do you see where this is going. You've actually added to what I've been saying. America may even be 'good at heart' but America sometimes may get involved in things to further it's interests (greed) because of politicians.

In other words, knowing that politicians are spineless bitches, is it not hard to beleive that they have and are cauing shit elsewhere which breeds hate against the entire nation that they represent??? If something like that is allowed to ferment for decades, people can actually get pissed enough to steal planes and drive them into buildings.

Bobo

Dual,

Ok, I'll pull it back a bit. I did not intend for it to be read that I'm blaming America for all of the worlds problems. If that's what it sounded like, I apologize. That's not my intention, nor do I blame the US for all of the worlds ills.

Like I said before, I like the American system over others. Especially over overzealous religious regimes that believe in ancient/irrelevant doctrines. Personally, I think the Arab nations would be fucked up with or without ever having known that a USA ever existed. It's obvious that their country is backwards, living in a time capsule. One that isn't fair or equal. One where individuals can't do as they please.

I only started this to show the ppl who think that the US is 100% right in this issue that they may not be. Nobody is perfect. No nation is perfect. Maybe that's part of being the leading nation. Your hands become the bloodiest...maybe that's the only way to maintain your power. But those are the facts.

Hope I made myself clear.

LiveDose

GREED IS GOOD....


(hold on part 2 coming)

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