What will be the next "big idea" ? What does the adult online community need.

[will76]

These two questions are a little different but should go hand and hand.

What do you think the next "big idea" will be online? If it is something that you are not working on or can not do yourself then please feel free to share.

What does the adult online community need ? (from an affiliate/site owner's perspective, not from a surfer's point of view).


I think we desperately need to be independant from visa. Someone needs to step up and start thier own adult friendly credit card company that actually loans the money out, and is not visa backed. Loan the money out and make it functional like paypal and have it work with nats, ccbill, etc.. and i think it will be an instant overnight success, make billions. It is proven lending (credit companies) make bank. This company would make money on both sides, collecting interest from the users and making a transaction fee for the website owners. Got to love making money on both sides.

The problem is very few people have the finances or can raise the VC to pull off a project like this.

Share your own ideas...

[tical]

i agree on billing & visa

[Dollarmansteve]

The industry needs more self-righteous crusaders.

[Wizzo]

Originally Posted by Dollarmansteve

The industry needs more self-righteous crusaders.

That are independent of any kind of success in this business!

[who]

How about epassporte but run properly?

[vvq]

visa has been growing a customer base for how long now? why in the world would you want to be adult orientated credit card company? that's like shooting yourself in the foot. let's start a cc company and cater primarily to the industry with the most fraud, chargebacks, and scams. sorry it's just a really dumb idea imo.

[will76]

Originally Posted by vvq

visa has been growing a customer base for how long now? why in the world would you want to be adult orientated credit card company? that's like shooting yourself in the foot. let's start a cc company and cater primarily to the industry with the most fraud, chargebacks, and scams. sorry it's just a really dumb idea imo.

I said """"""""""""" adult friendly """"""""""""""" . I wouldn't make it adult only. Way too many other transactions taking place online I wouldn't want to miss out on. It would be an alternative to visa. I also wouldnt make it adult only because of the stigma. People might be embarrassed to have credit card for porn, but if it had a mainstream name as was used for everything it wouldn't be an issue for anyone.

Why is having an alternative to visa is a really dumb idea? So you like counting on visa, if visa pulls the plug one day how will we process credit card transactions ?

I love the people who say dumb idea but have no ideas of their own to share. I guess you miss read the title " let's bash other people's ideas" when infact it said please share your ideas... Its ok we still love you.

[will76]

Originally Posted by who

How about epassporte but run properly?

isn't epassporte backed by visa? I would want something that didn't depend on visa.

IMO, want to shut down porn or put a major hurting on us, visa pulling the plug is #1 way to do it. I think visa pulling out would be more damaging then .xxx or 2257 etc... just my opinion.

[fris]

need people to stop making zango threads

[ayne468]

Interesting thread...gets you thinkin!

[eZe]

paypal had the best chance at being a real billing system by aggregating and using their ability to freeze accounts and challenge chargebacks. However, when they were bought by ebay adult processing ended.

[RobertD]

Originally Posted by will76

What does the adult online community need ?

An enema.

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by will76

These two questions are a little different but should go hand and hand.

What do you think the next "big idea" will be online? If it is something that you are not working on or can not do yourself then please feel free to share.

What does the adult online community need ? (from an affiliate/site owner's perspective, not from a surfer's point of view).


I think we desperately need to be independant from visa. Someone needs to step up and start thier own adult friendly credit card company that actually loans the money out, and is not visa backed. Loan the money out and make it functional like paypal and have it work with nats, ccbill, etc.. and i think it will be an instant overnight success, make billions. It is proven lending (credit companies) make bank. This company would make money on both sides, collecting interest from the users and making a transaction fee for the website owners. Got to love making money on both sides.

The problem is very few people have the finances or can raise the VC to pull off a project like this.

Share your own ideas...

its a good idea but no one is gonna want a card that is just used for buying porn online. the wife finds that and its all over. seems to be a lot more discreet hidden between 20 or so other charges on the CC statement.

[will76]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

its a good idea but no one is gonna want a card that is just used for buying porn online. the wife finds that and its all over. seems to be a lot more discreet hidden between 20 or so other charges on the CC statement.

see a couple post up....

Originally Posted by will76

I also wouldnt make it adult only because of the stigma. People might be embarrassed to have credit card for porn, but if it had a mainstream name and was used for everything it wouldn't be an issue for anyone.

[Nicky]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

its a good idea but no one is gonna want a card that is just used for buying porn online. the wife finds that and its all over. seems to be a lot more discreet hidden between 20 or so other charges on the CC statement.

Read what Will is saying again

[will76]

Originally Posted by Fris

need people to stop making zango threads

got to keep the good fight going. good for them that are still posting about it and bumping old threads.

[mattz]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

its a good idea but no one is gonna want a card that is just used for buying porn online. the wife finds that and its all over. seems to be a lot more discreet hidden between 20 or so other charges on the CC statement.

read the thread before posting

[will76]

Originally Posted by who

How about epassporte but run properly?

I could be totally wrong on this but doesn't epass work 2 different ways.

1. You load your account from various different sources (wire,credit card, etc..). This would be independent from visa, bank to epass account then send money online. But the vast majority of consumers like to be able to "charge it" . You are not going to get many consumers who will go pre load their "credit card" and then go spend money. This might work fine as a b2b payment method, but this wouldn't work for what I am suggesting.

2. You can get an epass visa card which i assume works like other banks that have visa cards ? People could make charges and pay interest ??? either way this option depends on visa and would defeat the purpose.

now if epass wants to give people credit balances and keep visa out of the picture, then they would be making a big step in the right direction.

[vvq]

Originally Posted by will76

I said """"""""""""" adult friendly """"""""""""""" . I wouldn't make it adult only. Way too many other transactions taking place online I wouldn't want to miss out on. It would be an alternative to visa. I also wouldnt make it adult only because of the stigma. People might be embarrassed to have credit card for porn, but if it had a mainstream name as was used for everything it wouldn't be an issue for anyone.

Why is having an alternative to visa is a really dumb idea? So you like counting on visa, if visa pulls the plug one day how will we process credit card transactions ?

I love the people who say dumb idea but have no ideas of their own to share. I guess you miss read the title " let's bash other people's ideas" when infact it said please share your ideas... Its ok we still love you.

so what exactly is this idea other than something you thought about for 20 seconds while you were taking a shit? please flesh it out a little bit more for me because it makes no fucking sense to anyone with a brain.

VISA isn't adult friendly? last time i checked every porn site on the net accepts them. what more do you want?

so it's not going to be adult only. so what is the fucking point? if you're launching a credit card company you've got much bigger things to worry about than how to corner the online porn industry. the % of transactions coming from consumers using their card to buy porn would be fucking miniscule to begin with.

visa has been reliable for a very long time, but now everyone should start using your card? and it's somehow better than visa BECAUSE it's geared towards online porn purchases? i'm pretty sure i'd be more worried about your fly by night porn credit card operation folding up than visa.

sorry, your idea isn't an idea, it's just stupid shit. my

[will76]

Originally Posted by vvq

so what exactly is this idea other than something you thought about for 20 seconds while you were taking a shit? please flesh it out a little bit more for me because it makes no fucking sense to anyone with a brain.

VISA isn't adult friendly? last time i checked every porn site on the net accepts them. what more do you want?

so it's not going to be adult only. so what is the fucking point? if you're launching a credit card company you've got much bigger things to worry about than how to corner the online porn industry. the % of transactions coming from consumers using their card to buy porn would be fucking miniscule to begin with.

visa has been reliable for a very long time, but now everyone should start using your card? and it's somehow better than visa BECAUSE it's geared towards online porn purchases? i'm pretty sure i'd be more worried about your fly by night porn credit card operation folding up than visa.

sorry, your idea isn't an idea, it's just stupid shit. my

Wow. Maybe we don't love you.

For argument sake lets say it is 100% the same as visa, wouldn't you like to have an alternative ?

Answer me this, with no alternative, if Visa pulls the plug what do you think will happen to the industy ?

So you are saying you are not worried about visa getting more and more restrictive on sites. You are not worried that visa fees may go up a lot over time, that their acceptable chargeback % may get lower. You think there is not chance in hell that visa can start doing like search engines and domain name registers and start policing sites, or start banning sites from using them for processing because the site has words like " teen " in the url or on the site. You think there is zero chance that if .xxx was ever passed and adult sites were forced to use .xxx that visa would stop processing the .com 's ? I am sure there are a million other things that could happen.

Obviously, you must be 100% confident that visa will be around for ever and will be as "friendly" as they are now. How would an alternative hurt things? How would having an option be a bad idea ? Someone explain that to me. You guys always say ' don't have all your eggs in one basket" what do you think you are doing with visa ?


Just the rambling thoughts of a guy without a brain that had this idea while i was taking my last shit. Maybe for my next shit I can write a book on how not to be an asshole.

[needlive]

Originally Posted by vvq

...and it's somehow better than visa BECAUSE it's geared towards online porn purchases?

You are right with that. Visa's position is immovable.

[will76]

maybe next time i wont throw out the first idea.

Anyone else have any ideas to share ?

[WarChild]

How about a way to actually stream content securely in high resolution dvd quality and really protect exclusive content in hopes to keep it off peer2peer and other file sharing networks.

[KingK7]

This "alternative to VISA" card idea has been discussed like 50,000 times. Unless you can find some magical way to actually push dollar bills through the screen and pay that way, it's just not gonna work. VISA is too big, there is no worthwhile alternative in terms of payment. Everything else is just a fraction of the volume VISA can do.

[EscortBiz]

before anything we need to clean the net up a bit from people who steal shit right there you will see a huge mega increase in signups

its flooded with free complete movies all over the place

[Nysus]

Originally Posted by WarChild

How about a way to actually stream content securely in high resolution dvd quality and really protect exclusive content in hopes to keep it off peer2peer and other file sharing networks.

Never going to exist.

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by will76

see a couple post up....

yeah, i should of taken the time to read the whole thread. anyhow you still have the big problem of getting these cards into the wallets of americans.

[vvq]

Originally Posted by will76

Wow. Maybe we don't love you.

For argument sake lets say it is 100% the same as visa, wouldn't you like to have an alternative ?

See, it's not a real business idea. It's some fantasy dream. Go make your company as large as VISA and then tell me if the adult internet porn sector matters to you at all. You wanna start a credit card company. Fine, good luck. How many major credit card companies are there? And somehow charging bussineses less per transaction on high risk transactions is giving you a leg up on the competition? Sorry, if anyone had the funding to get into that game, they would be stupid as fuck to waste a single second caring about this fucking industry, let alone making it the reason a consumer should use their card. Hell, if anything it's a reason for consumers to not use your card.

Answer me this, with no alternative, if Visa pulls the plug what do you think will happen to the industy ?

VISA won't ever stop processing adult. If they do the money just shifts to someone else. MC, discover, whatever. Not to mention ach processing would go through the roof.

So you are saying you are not worried about visa getting more and more restrictive on sites.

No, I'm not. If you they get more restrictive we just bend to the rules. Everyone has a visa card, you'd be stupid to not do whatever it takes to continue processing them.

You are not worried that visa fees may go up a lot over time, that their acceptable chargeback % may get lower.

So what if visa fees go up? Adult sites are high risk for a reason. Our industry is full of fraud, chargebacks, scamming, etc. There is a reason for the fees. Maybe you'll understand when you're behind the wheel of your own credit card company.

You think there is not chance in hell that visa can start doing like search engines and domain name registers and start policing sites, or start banning sites from using them for processing because the site has words like " teen " in the url or on the site.

Again, no new credit card company is gonna sweep in and take things over. Other established cc companies and alternative processing methods will pickup the slack. Of course this is in some fantasy land where visa stops processing adult. It will never happen. Basing business plans on "what ifs" is hardly a good idea. "We will be sucessfull if VISA pulls entirely out of the industry." Good luck securing funding.

You think there is zero chance that if .xxx was ever passed and adult sites were forced to use .xxx that visa would stop processing the .com 's ? I am sure there are a million other things that could happen.

Hinge your business model on some possible travesty that may or may not change the way credit card processing is handled for the small amount of transactions the adult industry does. Great idea. I'd rather move all my shit to .xxx domains to be able to keep processing visa than leave everything on .coms and make some new unknown porno card my main processor. Sorry, consumers use visa. I'm bending to their rules no matter what. Why? Because it's more profitable for me.

Obviously, you must be 100% confident that visa will be around for ever and will be as "friendly" as they are now.

Maybe, I don't really care what they do. There are bigger, more realistic threats to the adult internet industry than visa not processing.

How would an alternative hurt things? How would having an option be a bad idea ? Someone explain that to me. You guys always say ' don't have all your eggs in one basket" what do you think you are doing with visa ?

Alternatives don't hurt. Starting up a credit card company isn't a realistic solution. And if you somehow secured funding for such a thing, you'd be a fool to cater to the adult internet industry in any way. It would just make consumers not get your card. I just think it's a very dumb idea.

[will76]

Originally Posted by vvq

See, it's not a real business idea. It's some fantasy dream. Go make your company as large as VISA and then tell me if the adult internet porn sector matters to you at all. You wanna start a credit card company. Fine, good luck. How many major credit card companies are there? And somehow charging bussineses less per transaction on high risk transactions is giving you a leg up on the competition? Sorry, if anyone had the funding to get into that game, they would be stupid as fuck to waste a single second caring about this fucking industry, let alone making it the reason a consumer should use their card. Hell, if anything it's a reason for consumers to not use your card.


VISA won't ever stop processing adult. If they do the money just shifts to someone else. MC, discover, whatever. Not to mention ach processing would go through the roof.


No, I'm not. If you they get more restrictive we just bend to the rules. Everyone has a visa card, you'd be stupid to not do whatever it takes to continue processing them.


So what if visa fees go up? Adult sites are high risk for a reason. Our industry is full of fraud, chargebacks, scamming, etc. There is a reason for the fees. Maybe you'll understand when you're behind the wheel of your own credit card company.


Again, no new credit card company is gonna sweep in and take things over. Other established cc companies and alternative processing methods will pickup the slack. Of course this is in some fantasy land where visa stops processing adult. It will never happen. Basing business plans on "what ifs" is hardly a good idea. "We will be sucessfull if VISA pulls entirely out of the industry." Good luck securing funding.


Hinge your business model on some possible travesty that may or may not change the way credit card processing is handled for the small amount of transactions the adult industry does. Great idea. I'd rather move all my shit to .xxx domains to be able to keep processing visa than leave everything on .coms and make some new unknown porno card my main processor. Sorry, consumers use visa. I'm bending to their rules no matter what. Why? Because it's more profitable for me.


Maybe, I don't really care what they do. There are bigger, more realistic threats to the adult internet industry than visa not processing.


Alternatives don't hurt. Starting up a credit card company isn't a realistic solution. And if you somehow secured funding for such a thing, you'd be a fool to cater to the adult internet industry in any way. It would just make consumers not get your card. I just think it's a very dumb idea.

sorry i don't have a couple extra hours to waste debating with you on why i think starting an alternative credit processing company is a good idea. It was an idea i through out to start the thread off. I have a lot more details and ideas on how to get people to start using somethign new, some shit that even visa is not using right now. While i disagree with a lot of your points I don't care enough to waste the time trying to convince you other wise. Not to mention you don't have the best attitude in the world either, If i want to argue with a wall I can do that without having to type so much.


To the person who asked how do you get the cards into their hands... I'm just an idiot with fantasy ideas, but i t hink AOL was presented with a similar problem and they found a way to make it happen. Like i said it cost money.

[will76]

and one last thing, i know a way to gurauntee no fraud or chargebacks.

[Himuro]

[GigoloMason]

Originally Posted by will76

sorry i don't have a couple extra hours to waste debating with you on why i think starting an alternative credit processing company is a good idea. It was an idea i through out to start the thread off. I have a lot more details and ideas on how to get people to start using somethign new, some shit that even visa is not using right now. While i disagree with a lot of your points I don't care enough to waste the time trying to convince you other wise. Not to mention you don't have the best attitude in the world either, If i want to argue with a wall I can do that without having to type so much.


To the person who asked how do you get the cards into their hands... I'm just an idiot with fantasy ideas, but i t hink AOL was presented with a similar problem and they found a way to make it happen. Like i said it cost money.

Like he said you're living in a little fantasy world when it comes to the practical implementation of your idea. It makes absolutly no sense from a business point of view.

[StarkReality]

I'd love to see Amex back in adult, but after the x-pics shit and all the years that passed, it will never happen...what a shame !

[JOP]

Originally Posted by will76

and one last thing, i know a way to gurauntee no fraud or chargebacks.

wire transfer?

[Hotrocket]

Originally Posted by vvq

See, it's not a real business idea. It's some fantasy dream. Go make your company as large as VISA and then tell me if the adult internet porn sector matters to you at all. You wanna start a credit card company. Fine, good luck. How many major credit card companies are there? And somehow charging bussineses less per transaction on high risk transactions is giving you a leg up on the competition? Sorry, if anyone had the funding to get into that game, they would be stupid as fuck to waste a single second caring about this fucking industry, let alone making it the reason a consumer should use their card. Hell, if anything it's a reason for consumers to not use your card.


VISA won't ever stop processing adult. If they do the money just shifts to someone else. MC, discover, whatever. Not to mention ach processing would go through the roof.


No, I'm not. If you they get more restrictive we just bend to the rules. Everyone has a visa card, you'd be stupid to not do whatever it takes to continue processing them.


So what if visa fees go up? Adult sites are high risk for a reason. Our industry is full of fraud, chargebacks, scamming, etc. There is a reason for the fees. Maybe you'll understand when you're behind the wheel of your own credit card company.


Again, no new credit card company is gonna sweep in and take things over. Other established cc companies and alternative processing methods will pickup the slack. Of course this is in some fantasy land where visa stops processing adult. It will never happen. Basing business plans on "what ifs" is hardly a good idea. "We will be sucessfull if VISA pulls entirely out of the industry." Good luck securing funding.


Hinge your business model on some possible travesty that may or may not change the way credit card processing is handled for the small amount of transactions the adult industry does. Great idea. I'd rather move all my shit to .xxx domains to be able to keep processing visa than leave everything on .coms and make some new unknown porno card my main processor. Sorry, consumers use visa. I'm bending to their rules no matter what. Why? Because it's more profitable for me.


Maybe, I don't really care what they do. There are bigger, more realistic threats to the adult internet industry than visa not processing.


Alternatives don't hurt. Starting up a credit card company isn't a realistic solution. And if you somehow secured funding for such a thing, you'd be a fool to cater to the adult internet industry in any way. It would just make consumers not get your card. I just think it's a very dumb idea.

Absolutely the most short sighted post so far...


The single most important thing to this industry is the payment methods..whatever the vehicle is..without that revenue the industry would be DEVASTATED, starting with the sponsors!
Anyone that says that visa isn't important and we could get by without them needs to take a look at the percentage of people that have and use visa cards. Ask the people running sites that DO NOT accept visa how greatly this affects their business.

Yes a viable alternative payment system that accepts adult transactions is greatly needed in the industry and if that could somehow be coupled with an age verification system that actually works and would be acceptable to the legal/political community would be an absolute billion dollar idea. Is it a new credit card?..I personally don't think so..we need something along the lines of a paypal model.

The age verification issue is a pretty complicated one, and I think the biggest roadblock to that is allowing the person the remain anonymous while at the same time providing verifiable age data.

Of course this isn't a new idea obviously, but these 2 issues would do more good for the industry than anything else I can think of.

Sure we have other legal issues floating around out there..the .xxx issue..2257 etc. but thats not really what this particular thread is about.

[vvq]

Originally Posted by will76

sorry i don't have a couple extra hours to waste debating with you on why i think starting an alternative credit processing company is a good idea. It was an idea i through out to start the thread off. I have a lot more details and ideas on how to get people to start using somethign new, some shit that even visa is not using right now. While i disagree with a lot of your points I don't care enough to waste the time trying to convince you other wise. Not to mention you don't have the best attitude in the world either, If i want to argue with a wall I can do that without having to type so much.


To the person who asked how do you get the cards into their hands... I'm just an idiot with fantasy ideas, but i t hink AOL was presented with a similar problem and they found a way to make it happen. Like i said it cost money.

i apologize for coming across so negatively. i am far from understanding the intricate workings of the credit card industry, but i am able to point out a few huge problems with your idea. so sue me for telling you the Easter Bunny isn't real. i could throw out fantasy ideas that would be great for the industry, but i prefer to think on more realistic terms.

i mean, whatever, keep the dream alive i guess lol.

[nba4life2k]

Adult Industry needs more nba4life2k's

[HighSociety]

stormpay use to do adult, along with ikobo and they all stopped, there must have been a problem

[vvq]

Originally Posted by Hotrocket

Absolutely the most short sighted post so far...


The single most important thing to this industry is the payment methods..whatever the vehicle is..without that revenue the industry would be DEVASTATED, starting with the sponsors!
Anyone that says that visa isn't important and we could get by without them needs to take a look at the percentage of people that have and use visa cards. Ask the people running sites that DO NOT accept visa how greatly this affects their business.

I said there are bigger threats to this industry than a "what if" visa stops processing adult scenario. There are.

[jay23]

What happend to that company (was is 123billing) that loand money to guys with out credit card so they can join a site, but then send money at a later time by mail ?

Jay

[Hotrocket]

Originally Posted by vvq

I said there are bigger threats to this industry than a "what if" visa stops processing adult scenario. There are.

you've made 5 posts in this thread and have yet to provide a single example of those "bigger threats"

[Hotrocket]

actually it doesnt matter..the point of this thread is to discuss new ideas

[will76]

Originally Posted by vvq

i apologize for coming across so negatively. i am far from understanding the intricate workings of the credit card industry, but i am able to point out a few huge problems with your idea. so sue me for telling you the Easter Bunny isn't real. i could throw out fantasy ideas that would be great for the industry, but i prefer to think on more realistic terms.

i mean, whatever, keep the dream alive i guess lol.

bullshit. i think you are a negative person and you prefer to tell people they are wrong instead of trying to offer an alternative or suggestions on how something can be done better. What do you think would help the industry ? what do you think would be a good alterntive methods to process ? checks LOL thats all i see on your site, credit card and checks, If anything happens to visa how many people you think only have visa and don't have discover or mastercard ? What would you do besides pray nothing happens to visa ?

For my idea, you don't have all of the details. My idea wasn't thought up while i was taking a shit as you put it. Secondly, you don't think anyone can compete with visa nor do you think they should, therefore doesn't matter what i say you have your mind made up. You made bunch of comments that are totally ridiculous so again more reason for me not to waste more time getting into the details.

[reynold]

Well....... it seems that after 2000, Adult has finally been outstripped by Mainstream when it comes to adopting new trends. Shit..... Web 2.0 is almost all MAINSTREAM, you don't see adult versions of that.

Maybe the reputation of adult as being first adopters/early adopters of technology only applies to shit that is directly applicable like webcam networks, streaming video, affiliate programs, etc

[Quickdraw]

Originally Posted by Dollarmansteve

The industry needs more self-righteous crusaders.

Or maybe fewer scammers, cheaters, and thieves.

[will76]

Originally Posted by vvq

I said there are bigger threats to this industry than a "what if" visa stops processing adult scenario. There are.

like what???? Your comments are getting old. You make reference to the easter bunny but that is all you will say. Why do you keep making statements without putting any substance to it.

What do you think is more of a threat to the industry than losing visa. Everything is a fucking what if. What if .xxx happens. What if the 2257 regulations don't get changed.

Anything that hasn't happend yet is a what if.

[will76]

Originally Posted by jay23

What happend to that company (was is 123billing) that loand money to guys with out credit card so they can join a site, but then send money at a later time by mail ?

Jay

I don't know but there are 100 ways to fuck up a good idea. SO if they didn't make it work it doesn't mean the idea is bad.

it's not like a credit card is a new concept. It is proven business model that makes billions.

Question " what does the adult industry need" i through out, an alternative to visa, a payment method where people can "charge it" instead of having to fund it and is independent from visa. no no can't happen/ Can never be done. bad idea, no way, it's visa for life baby! we don't need anything else, to think other wise and you must be clueless, how could anyone think of something so stupid as an alternative to visa. wow what an retarded way of thinking.

I wonder why i don't want to post here anymore unless i am looking for something. I try to encourage some good thinking and new ideas, get a little business thread going and all you get is the " you must be stupid, that will never happen" people.

[GigoloMason]

Originally Posted by will76

For my idea, you don't have all of the details. My idea wasn't thought up while i was taking a shit as you put it. Secondly, you don't think anyone can compete with visa nor do you think they should, therefore doesn't matter what i say you have your mind made up. You made bunch of comments that are totally ridiculous so again more reason for me not to waste more time getting into the details.

He never said that at all. He just said the particular model you presented was poorly thought out. There's no viable way to push it onto the consumer market.

[will76]

Originally Posted by JOP

wire transfer?

nope a way to use a credit card without any chargebacks.

[s9ann0]

what we really need is will77