Pleasurepays

you guys don't seem to want to wrap your heads around the fact that the market is setting the prices and terms... just as it happens with any other product or service. if you don't like the terms.. or client expectations... then you're in the wrong biz. don't blame us that a great paysite costs 750.00 - 1000.00 now and not the 5,000 it cost in 98.

Esbee

I'd certainly give PSDs to a tour upon request. Conditions change and the ability to alter a tour only seems fair. Highly doubt I'd give it for a gallery job however (though I'd make that clear in advance). Too likely one job would be converted into exponential pseudo-versions of the same work. I've seen plenty of content providers terms that stipulate heavily restricted usage. Don't see why designs should be too different, aside from it being virtually impossible to enforce after turning over PSD files.

There's really no relation between adult and mainstream though. I merely follow adult via this board (borderline useful, but always entertaining), chiming in now and then but mostly watching as adult is generally a step ahead of the rest of the internet (though far less so nowadays). The difference between the two is staggering though.

It's the galleries that most amaze me... a piece of promotional material likely to see far upwards of 500K pageviews in it's lifespan - in a saturated, ungodly competitive market no less - and programs are spending $25 to have a piece of shit 30-minute job done. I'd log $150-$300 worth of billable time before I even clicked the Photoshop icon for something of that nature, hence my complete and utter failure in the adult realm. Or perhaps the failure is due to lack of skill. Don't know, don't care I guess.

There's really very little talent displayed in adult design, mostly it's curvy shapes with gradiated background coupled with a faded pixel-pattern on top, with useless text that'll never be read coating 75% of open space. It's not the fault of the adult design community though. What I've yet to figure out is if the god awful promo stems from naivete on the part of the programs themselves, or rather the program's need to convince a naive affiliate community that the bloated tour is a "sick ass" design that's sure to sell, despite the fact said design is the 2000th resurrection of the same, tired look.

harvey

I don't know if you're talking about Aico's portfolio, but anyway, just so you know, that's the ongoing price for professional fonts. Check http://www.fonts.com/FindFonts/Detai...ra&SCOPE=Fonts for Futura family as an example.

as for the war between aico and DWB and PleasurePays, count me out, LOL

just one thing: I think you're comparing apples with oranges I don't think any professional will work other way than a professional way, maybe you've had some bad experience with some designer, but I bet is not any of the top guys. For once, I take pride of being there for my clients, and most of the times they don't need to do any changes, I do the changes for them for free if it's not something really important or for little money if it takes more work. So, even when you'll get the psd from me, you won't even need them. I mean, instead of generalize maybe you'd compare crap with crap

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Jace

aico, you need a lawyer man, because ANY company that contracted you to do work could sue your pants off for even displaying THEIR work in YOUR portfolio

there are TONS of cases in the legal system already showing the fact that the company that hires you owns the works and you need permission to display their work in your portfolio

Pleasurepays

you guys crack me up. so far, you guys have basically had to resort to calling every webmaster retarded and adults most talented designers incompetent and talentless.

aico

I am not taking any new clients, and haven't for the past 3 years, so you can check me off any list you'd like.

My portfolios? How exactly would you have seen any of them when they are printed material or on the side of a building somewhere? Want to see my portfolio take a walk thru Disney's California Adventure, you'll see a lot of my work.

aico

What the fuck are you talking about? Cuz I have no clue what you are referring to. But regardless, my contract with any work I've done clearly states I have permission to use it. But, I am not really sure what you are referring to.

aico

6. ACCREDITATION/PROMOTIONS
All displays or publications of the Deliverables shall bear accreditation and/or copyright notice in Designer?s name in the form, size and location as incorporated by Designer in the Deliverables, or as otherwise directed by Designer. Designer retains the right to reproduce, publish and
display the Deliverables in Designer?s portfolios and websites, and in galleries, design periodicals and other media or exhibits for the purposes of recognition of creative excellence or professional advancement, and to be credited with authorship of the Deliverables in connection with such uses. Either party, subject to the other?s reasonable approval, may describe its role in relation to the Project and, if applicable, the services
provided to the other party on its website and in other promotional materials, and, if not expressly objected to, include a link to the other party?s website.

Jace

um....direct quote from this thread

aico

Oh, well I don't do work for hire, so you are right, but it doesn't apply to me.

Twisted Dave

LOL

Whatever.

If you have that attitude, you're gonna get a lot of shit.

ALL PSD and Fonts are included when a design is created by us. Any designer that doesn't supply that stuff is an ass... and the client wont come back ...

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onno

This discussion i found it pretty stupid, seems that people forgot about something that is called TALK... legally if you dont sign a contract that says you own the psds is the designer who owns them... But the most easy is TALK before you get a agreement. Just TALKwith the designer about what u need, and what he is going to provide you. And if you are interested the you found your designer if not look for another.

About fonts, well if you allow the designer to use commercial fonts, then if u want the fonts you have to pay for them. So the end price of the design should be work done + fonts + (other resources used like stock photo if needed)... But again TALK with your designer before any work and you will be more happy

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aico

Like I said, I don't give my fonts away, it's actually illegal for a person to use the fonts (the ones I use not the freebie internet ones) without paying for them. Fonts I use have copyrights just like anything else, using them illegally can result in a serious copyright infringement lawsuit. If I design something, and I use a House Industries Font for example, and they see what I designed somewhere, and come to me and ask where the license is for the use of that font, and I don't have it, my ass is grass.

So call me an ass if you must, but I call it smart & professional business practice. Like I said, I don't do adult design, I don't take on more clients than I can handle, most of my clients have me on a retainer anyway so I don't need new clients. If I can't take a new client, I refer them to another designer and take a referral fee. It's a pretty common practice.

Twisted Dave

I understand the fonts thing .... and for major mainstream clients, I do not use standard fonts in many instances, so yes, I agree ...

but not giving PSDs ? Sorry ... that's ludicrous. Even in mainstream. You're basically saying that they can't have the documents they pay for ... they're not buying a template ... they're buying custom work.

I think it's unethical for a designer to take money and only hand over the final images.

Jeez, even in the games industry, the code and original source materials are all handed over to the publisher when working on a custom project. For instance, FIFA for EA. I worked on that and all my art went to EA, in PSD format.

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Twisted Dave

Regardless of why you think this is the case, you're gonna piss a lot of hard working designers off ....

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aico

They're paying for a design nothing more. This isn't the Game industry. Not sure why people keep comparing apples and oranges. Why don't you join AIGA and then you can find out exactly what is considered ethical and unethical.

Here I'll do it for you:

Rights/Ownership
All tangible materials in all circumstances remain the property of the Designer. All rights and ownership apply to preliminary concepts, works in progress, and finished material, whether the project is completed or canceled. The Client will be entitled to limited and specific usage rights of such materials only for the purpose of reproduction, after which all materials will be returned, unaltered, to the Designer within thirty days of use.

Upon payment of all fees and expenses, the Designer will grant all reproduction and/or usage rights, as outlined in the attached estimate/proposal, for all approved final materials created by the Designer for this project.

If the Client wishes to make any additional use of the materials, the Client agrees to seek permission from the Designer and make such payments as are approved by the parties at that time. Where alterations or retakes are necessary, the Designer will be given the opportunity to make such changes at an agreed additional charge.

Electronic Files
If the Client has requirements for how the project is to be prepared electronically, the Client must communicate this to the Designer before the project begins. Electronic files and software documents related to the Client’s project are the property of the Designer and must not be copied, altered, or modified without the written permission of the Designer.

The AIGA Standard Terms and Conditions for Designer/Client Relationships

Sebastian Sands

What's with the example of a plumber leaving his tools? Is the client asking for a copy of photoshop? or any other "tool". No, they are asking for their product that you got paid for to create. And you say since it's not the "end product" they are not getting it. I think it says more about your bizz ethics then anything. But if it works for you then great.

:2cents

aico

Quoted for truth

Pleasurepays

you guys are fucking morons. people are paying for whatever they agreed to pay for beforehand. you are arguing against a business model and common practice that has existed for 10 years now in adult.

to defend yourselves, you stoop to attacking peoples morals, ethics and calling all the top designers in adult talentless as if this whole issue is all something new. the reality is that its nothing new at all and the simple fact is that turning over the PSD's means less potential money for you that you can continue to milk a customer for.

what the fuck do you need psd's for www.donkeyfuckedteens.com for? in case it becomes a prime time tv show on FOX?

holy shit. whats wrong with you jackasses? all you have to do is say "personally, i prefer to do business in this manner..." then spell it out... and be professional... instead you fucking idiots attack everyone and everything because you are threatened by how things ARE and HAVE BEEN and in doing so, alienate yourselves from any potential customers.

tranza

I agree 100% also.

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harvey

please tell me where or when did I say that, I missed that part. Or maybe I'm on a bad case of schizophrenia

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aico

The only person attacking people over and over in this entire thread is you

Elli

I did this to myself, unfortunately. I made a snazzy little logo, then wanted to change something. Unfortunately I didn't back up my fonts last time I formatted and the font was mislabeled because I can't find it anywhere online. Sigh.

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JamesK2

I think that's up to the designer, but imho the client should know what he gets when he orders it. I think it's a bit fucked if a designer makes a design for the client and then when the client asks for the PSD he will either not get it or be charged more for it.

I am a designer myself and I have also hired many other designers for projects and I noticed most professionals tend to keep the PSD for theirselves. Never had any real problems getting it though

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2012

aico

Congrats on 6000k Beeyach!

Everything I do, say, agree to, confirm, is in writing, always. My clients know exactly what they are getting and not getting before I even start. Any changes are in writing, any additional costs are approved in writing. My clients know what is expected from them and when I need it, in writing. I've been doing graphic design for 16 years, except for the first couple years when I was new and stupid and didn't put stuff in writing, I have never had any issues or any clients who told me they didn't get what they expected.

Twisted Dave

Well, I'm sorry ... I'll tell you what ... here's how I see it.

Why the fuck would the designer EVER wanna keep the PSD files to themselves? Why?

They wouldn't ...

So if you don't give the PSD's by default, you're simply not as nice as me

Fact.

Because at the end of the day, there's NO reason not to give full PSD files

That's got fuck all to do with professionalism.

PLUS... aico ... you say this aint the games industry ... yet you're arguing this whole thing ... and you even say yourself, this aint mainstream and you don't do adult. So why are you in here comparing the two industries?

You're doing the same thing you told me not to do ...

As I say ... if you're nice, you'll give PSD's ... because you have no reason not to ... if you're a selfish cunt, you'll hold on to them.

Choose

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aico

Because maybe the Designer is actually a business person, and does design as a business to make money, and not to make friends or bros.

Say I do an adult design, a banner for $25 say. Boom banner is done, took me maybe 30 minutes. Send them the banner, they like it. "Hey, can you make us the same banner that says "blah blah blah" and maybe put this new girl on it?" Sure, I'll do that, for $10, no problem. That's why you don't give them the PSD file, it's called doing business. Doesn't matter if it's Adult or Mainstream, good business sense is good business sense.

Twisted Dave

Nah ... sorry man ... I make plenty of money ... I'm a pro at my job ... but I don't like screwing people ... jeez, you think someone would add the girls and think it was as good as yours? generally even when my clients have the PSD's ... they will still come to me to edit ;) I'm good enough

Sorry, but your business model simply falls short if you're good enough ... designers are hired for skill generally ... well, I like to think so ... my clients don't usually fuck around changing shit ... Unless it's tiny ... and I don't do tiny work $10 edits mean fuck all to me and I'd not waste my time on it :P Small changes are usually something I'll do for free as a service of support to my clients.

I see where you're going ... I just think you're looking at it the wrong way.

Btw ... even my mainstream clients get, and will continue to get fully layered and editable PSD files. I'm not gonna screw them over.

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aico

You don't belong to AIGA do you? Maybe you should join and spend some time learning the standards of our industry. You're actually what is considered bad for the design industry and lack of professionalism. But, do what you need to do to make a buck, to each their own.

Screwing someone over would be me saying they can have the files, then not giving them to them. I am not on retainers for my screwing over of clients.

Pleasurepays

i think that when you have to stoop to start saying that because things in adult are done a certain way, its because we deal with "subpar designers who do know know what needs to be done..." (your words) etc etc as well as insult the intelligence of those who have been in this biz for a very long time, you are attacking people.

as i said... all you had to do was simply say "i do it a different way because" and no one would care and everyone could easily understand. its not a huge surprise that everyone in mainstream typically keeps the files, or at least tries to. you seem unwilling to grasp the fact that people can agree to anything they want and adult has always done business this way... mostly because they are webmasters and have a working knowledge of photoshop and html anyway.

for mainstream stuff, i have never paid anyone for anything where it was not agreed that i would get the psd's. that includes our magazine for womens health and fitness. its just bad business. its bad business for someone that doesn't need to go back to the same guy to make mundane and simple changes. its bad business to let someone else hold you and your project hostage because they are busy or on vacation or because they disappeared. its totally absurd... and everyone except a couple designers agree with that.

Twisted Dave

Dude ... honestly, you're talking out of turn about me making a quick buck. If I wanted to make a quick buck, I'd have stayed in the games industry. I made 3x what I make doing this. I do this because I love it. I love it more than the fucking AIGA loves it I can assure you. THAT kind of bullshit is in my eyes, trying to make a quick buck. If I give my clients the PSD's, and give them changes after ... for free ... how is that making a quick buck.

When you're telling me you'd charge them extra for the changes, coz you have the power by holding the PSD's ... I think you gotta review who's trying to make the quick buck. Sounds like people like yourself imo.

I think you got your priorities wrong. And I suspect you don't make enough in mainstream design, or you wouldn't be here.

I don't run sites, or have other links in my sig ... because I work 12 - 16 hour days every day on design work, for clients who want the quality I create.

I'm hardly making a 'quick' buck. I fucking WISH! :P

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aico

I didn't say quick buck.

Twisted Dave

You totally meant that ... make a buck ... make a quick buck.... your context suggested it .... bad enough.

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Twisted Dave

By the way aico ... I'm not taking any of this seriously ... I just think your trying to be above your station by basically slagging off the designers here who don't think it's right to hold on to source material for jobs they do.

I get on with a lot of the designers in this industry, and they're all pretty damn nice people ... and 90% of the guys here deliver product, to client satisfaction.

I don't see why giving the PSD's and offering that as standard is such a problem.

Just one thing to say ... AIGA. They can suck ass.

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aico

Don't tell me what I meant. I say what I mean. Your defensive attitude created the context. It's funny how you guys keep resorting to attacks, or feel you are being attack. Did you take "to each his own" out of context to? Was that somehow an attack on you as well?

Twisted Dave

You meant it ! SO THERE!

;)

Dude ... it's all a bunch of words on a forum Chill out dude

We all have our ways of working. It just happens that I'll get more repeat business than you ;)

LOL!

YARGH!

Btw ... Show us some of your mainstream work ... I'm actually really interested. And I'm not being sarcastic... I'm serious. I'd love to see your stuff man.

No hard feelings ... I'm not actually taking this seriously as I said before

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aico

Wow, now your even attacking the organization that has done nothing but help designers for the past 90 years.

Twisted Dave

Come on man ... I said twice now I'm not taking this seriously...

You're not are you?

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aico

I am chill, trust me. It's all good, back and forth fun times on GFY. I am just stating how I do things, you can do things your way ie "To each his own". It doesn't bother me to have someone disagree with me.

I keep my mainstream design and adult completely seperate. Because, contrary to your belief, I actually make more from my mainstream work, a lot more. (hello, have you see my sites? )

aico

no, I am not, I thought is was funny.

Twisted Dave

NO! I wanna see them!

Btw ... I also get a LOT more cash from Mainstream work. I just find adult work more fun to do ...

Link me your portfolio!

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aico

That "program" in my sig is mine.

Twisted Dave

Yeah but I wanna see your mainstream work ...

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aico

Can't do it, sorry. Some of the people I do work for are very "family oriented".

Pleasurepays

12345678

aico

dude, get some help. Of course I am going to design my own shit you fucking retard. I meant paid work, jesus you're thick.

Twisted Dave

[email protected]

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Pleasurepays

i guess you're not as "chill" as you claim you are.

aico

God I hope you're not patting yourself on the back for that one.