slackologist

If that is what the people of Iraq desire, yes.

If saddam is removed by force and not election or succession it will _not_ encourage stability and you will see more backlash than ever before coming from the region.

If anything, the new resolutions should prompt for presidential elections in Iraq (say, in 2 years time) to let the people of Iraq decide who should lead.

Right now I think Iraq would just be happy to get their country back to the state it was in before America stared fucking them over.

The trouble all started when Kuwait began stealing Iraq's oil (America comes in, bad Iraq, *spank* let Kuwait steal oil, they sell it to us cheap! ) naughty Iraq.

Now they see Iraq wont bend to American will and saddam has been demonised.

I'm assuming you know that the US put saddam in power, helped him gain chemical agents and encouraged him to use them against Iran.

slackologist

having said all that, america is a great place with a lot of great people, diamonds in the mud.

back to work. :-)

theking

I see. Are you the brainless Aborigine brother of Joe Sixpack? I will let someone else rip your post apart. It would not give me any pleasure to do so.

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Mr.Fiction

It can be argued that it is better Saddam stay in power temporarily than for all countries to suddenly be allowed to attack each other without proper evidence or consultation with the United Nations. We haven't had a world war in quite a few years, and the United Nations is a big part of the reason for that.

Using Bush's logic, in fact, Iraq was probably justified in attacking Kuwait in 1990 because they might have done it to protect their best interests. After all, why should Iraq have had to prove to anyone else that they actually were threatened by Kuwait? Isn't it enough that Saddam said it, just like it's supposed to be enough that Bush says it?

Most of the people arguing against Bush aren't arguing for Saddam, they are arguing that what Bush is doing could very well cause more problems that it will solve. This is, in many cases, an argument about process more than it is an argument about Iraq specifically.

Do you believe that all countries should attack anyone they want anytime they want, without any reason that can be justified to at least a few other countries? Do you believe in anarchy and chaos, or stability in the world? Terrorism can cause instability, but so can unjustified attacks on other countries at random with no clear reasoning.

Bush was smart for framing this as "you're either with us or against us" because there are a lot of people in America stupid enough to believe it's just that simple. You either agree with Bush 100% or you agree with the terrorists, right? Anyone who takes a moment to look at the issues before chanting Bush-Bush-Bush is helping the enemy. Anyone who demands facts is the enemy. Anyone who thinks Bush is an wrong is the enemy. Anyone who thinks at all is helping the enemy. Don't think, just believe and do what you are told, or you are the enemy too.

Don't dare question anything, or you are helping the enemy. Scary stuff.

Joe Sixpack

It's because you're incapable of ripping it apart. You wouldn't know how. Dimwit.

slackologist

The king, you are so insightful.

I also find it apparent that some people when they have no argument use abuse as their defence.

Thank you for highlighting this important point.

Pleasurepays

are you retarded?
is this Lawrence Conner is disguise?

slackologist

another one, second case in point. congratulations!

Pleasurepays

ok... point by point.

backlash??? why?

can you show me a similar situation in modern history?
what about the massive backlash predicted by going to Afghanistan.

seems the only backlash was:

1) driving out the taliban
2) driving out terrorists and destroying terrorist bases
3) letting them choose their own government through democratic elections
4) rebuilding the infrastructure of the country

is that the type of backlash you worry about?

Pleasurepays

but seriously, are you retarded?

Pleasurepays

Now they see Iraq wont bend to American will and saddam has been demonised.
------------
Saddam has been demonized why?

i thought it was because he was a brutal murderer who has done things like gas an entire villiage, killing 5000 men, women and children. i guess the details arent important

i did not know he was demonized because he wont "bend to American will"

drew

OK, I can see that you are slow. Let's go again:
Australia doesn't count. That country has no power. America can buy your island with some pocket change. Remember Holden, your only car company? Now tell me who owns it. Dont be shy.
BTW I could say that your PM(what is his name Howard? I am not sure) is not much different than Bush. He is always kissing his ass anyway.

slackologist

>backlash??? why?

why did 911 happen?

>can you show me a similar situation in modern history?

911

>what about the massive backlash predicted by going to >Afghanistan.

Bombings in kabul, attempted assination of the afghan president. attempted US embassy bombings last week. There's a few off the top of my head, or would you like some more 911's? maybe in another 12 months.


>seems the only backlash was:

>1) driving out the taliban

to pakistan

>2) driving out terrorists and destroying terrorist bases

to pakistan

>3) letting them choose their own government through >democratic elections


>4) rebuilding the infrastructure of the country

give them 50 billion and they might be on the way to providing food, shelter and education to their children in winter

>is that the type of backlash you worry about?

911 on a much larger scale targeting all US allies.



i'm not retarded. are you? you seem to like the word :-)

Joe Sixpack

Not all of us like Howard but we all like living in Australia. Maybe one day, you'll have our standard of living. Although with the way your economy looks at the moment, I doubt it.

drew

Please, keep your standard of living LOL
We dont want it.
And your little economy can not even compare to ours.

slackologist

ok americans, will you enjoy a few more skyscrapers falling down around you? 911 was a pretty good warning of what it's going to be like if you keep fucking over other countries.

extreme fundamentalism anywhere is dangerous, even in america's christian community.

don't even get me started on the australian government, i did not vote for them and i hope they are removed from power next election.

has democracy gone nazi? looks like it.

if saddam is to be retired, which will eventually need to happen, the best way is peaceful, not forceful.

it would reflect well on america to get this right and help stop the cylcle of hatred rather than inflame it.

cheers

theking

You at least made an intelligent post, unlike some of the other posts, so I will take the time to answer your post but not with detailed depth. I am not feeling very well and I just do not feel like going into alot of detail. While I am in favor of the continued existence of the UN it is more of a debating society than it is anything else. It has never been very useful for solving the problems of the world and the proof is in the pudding. It certainly has not been very useful in preventing a third world war. For this you can thank America and the trillions of dollars it spent over the cold war years on the "arms race", providing a Nuclear umbrella over Europe and much of Asia, for its friends and members of NATO. The US, as well as the UN, has all of the proof that it needs to overthrow Sadam. It is a no brainer. He has violated every UN resolution made against him and continues to do so. He was defeated on the field of battle and made certain agreements with the conquering Army and he has violated every one of those agreements. Any other proof of anything would just be frosting on the cake, but in fact is not needed. What other proof do you feel is needed? Pesonally I think the US has shown extreme patience with the man. He attempted to assasinate an American President. Multiple times he has called for Americans to be killed where ever they are found. We have allowed him to exist for an additional 11 years when violating every agreement he made after being defeated in one war. His forces have repeatedly lit up (targeted) and fired upon our aircraft since the existence of the two "no fly zones". He should have been overthrown a long time ago.

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Pleasurepays

you are right. what is needed is a change of attitude.

for 4 years the US government tried to negotiate with the Taliban to get them to turn over Osama Bin Laden

They should not have asked.

Radical Islam is not a war against US policy. It is a war of an archaic and oppressive religion against the free world. Because those freedoms represent the opposite of everything they are and everything they stand for.

it is not a simple question of "cant we all just get along"

it is confronting the simple fact that some people want to kill everyone that is not them... based solely on religious beliefs which rewards them for doing so. they want to spread their own twisted disease that has kept most of them in the fucking stone age ... even in the 21st century.

People like Osama Bin Laden annouced to the world that they were going to begin a 'Holy War" against the US. He did it on TV in Saudi Arabia, afterwhich his passport was revoked and he was exhiled.

He began to kill Americans for several years... Embassy Bombings, Marine Barracks, USS Cole, FIRST AND SECOND attack on the World Trade Center etc.

he was never stopped because of people like you. because of political correctness. because of the hope that if you just gave peace a chance... everything would work itself out. Because people worried more about the horror of hurting someones feelings, or offending someone over the horror of watching Marine Barracks and Embassies explode.

now, it is time to try a different approach and set a new world standard for the consequences of similar behavior. the consequences of harboring, supporting, funding and training terrorists.

and for dealing with people like Saddam Hussein who have spent 11 years spitting in the face of the international Community... namely the UN Security Council while violating IN EVERY WAY the terms of his surrender after his invasion of Kuwait and every Security Council Resolution afterwards.

PornoDoggy

Why do I think I would be proud to be thought a communist by a moron like you?

Joe Sixpack

Gee... you are the genius aren't you. Have you managed to work out yet that you have over 15 times the population we have. On an economic growth basis our economy has been outstripping yours for years. Your nation and your economy are living on borrowed time.

Take a look at this:

US National Debt Clock

Rather big wouldn't you say! If your country was an individual you would have been forced into bankruptcy by now.

Joe Sixpack

Don't you mean Christianity?

slackologist

pleasure, and what would your new attitude invlove?

i don't think it would really be very new. do you? it's how you got into the mess you are in now.

islamic extremists are not after you because you have more than them, they hate you because you have come to their countries and forced your own will on them, which you would do again now.

I wont defend everything saddam has done, but international law is not the will of the US administration.


If someone abuses you, your sister, borther, mother and father or even kills them and does this repeatedly over generations. Will you sit and be happy or seek some form of reconcile, be it vengance or otherwise...

violence breeds violence.

Pleasurepays

does modern Christianity tell you to kill "infidels" and promise that you will be rewarded for that with 70 virgins and secure a place in "paradise" for yourself and your family?

Pleasurepays

i think that we dissagree. violence ends violence as well.

are you suggesting that if Europe just sat back and did nothing that Hitler would have mellowed out and lost interest in Eradicating an entire race of people while conquering the world in the process?

or do you think things were more peaceful after the German war machine was destroyed through the use of force?

slackologist

i agree it's time for a change in attitude. The "lets all just try and get along" approach has never been part of american doctrine.

i've heard all the arguments and i'm not convinced, if my son or daughter had been killed in 911, perhaps i'd feel otherwise.

PornoDoggy

Really? Remember that last winter we had a good portion of the Mujahadeen on our side against the Taliban. We control 15-20% of Afghanistan tops. If the Mujahadeen decide to fight us - and the verdict is by no means in yet, as it's a big fucking country, and there are dozens of factions - our veneer of control will start showing cracks.

Not necessarily saying you are wrong, but I do think you are very much overstating the case here.

drew

JoeClown, our debt per capita is much smaller than most of the other contries

Look at the Australian debt
http://www.satcom.net.au/freedom/debt.html

"Reserve Bank of Australia research (RDP 9405) shows that in 1993 Australia had the highest level of direct foreign investment as a ratio of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of any major industrialised country.
Youth unemployment between the ages of 15 to 24 runs at 25 % on average and is even higher in some areas. Thousands of well educated and experienced middle aged professionals languish, looking for jobs that no longer exist. Statisticians, by cooking the books, say that Australia's unemployment is at 8.6 %, or just under one million people. If we disregard that one hour's work a week classifies a person as employed, then the figure is really between 1.5 million and 1.9 million unemployed. "

Pleasurepays

and for that matter, how would you characterize Germanys relationship today with the US and the rest of Europe?

is it worse?
are people resentful, bitter and angry?
do people want revenge?

or it is simply over as the free world joins a democratic and global economy and enjoys the true freedoms that cause peace... rather than tolerating the dictators that cause hate and war.

slackologist

pleasure. I assume the US does not intend to invade Iraq and slaughter 50% of the population.

PornoDoggy

Your data is seriously out of date - probably 15 years. Most of the folks worth $1M+ these days earned it themselves. You gotta get up to $10-15M before you run into the inhereted class these days.

slackologist

or split the country in half for that matter. i wouldnt try to compare ww2 germany to today's iraq in the middle east, i think that would be a mistake. they are two very different situations.

Pleasurepays

uhm... what % of the population was slaughtered last time as the most massive troop mobilization and military offensive since World War Two was launched?

the figure is probably somewhere between 0% and immeasurable.

do you really believe that ANYONE is going to just walk in and start "slaughtering" civilians? thats a pretty bizarre outlook.

Pleasurepays

they are not different situations.

people knew what the threat was and spent their time mired in the pondering of "what if" scenarios and "why should we get involved" arguements as Hitler was already invading countries.

why, in the face of all the evidence, the history and his track record, would it be appropriate to wait and see how many people he kills again, who he attacks again before deciding on action?

slackologist

eh, ease up big fellow.

In iraq there will be many thousands in the general populace willing to explode themselves to kill the invaders and defilers of thier land, they will instill a sense of hatred toward america in their children and so on, as you see with the israeli occupation of palestine as from desert storm, etc.

ok?

PornoDoggy

We may very well have to split it into thirds if we are looking to get out of there in 20 years ... You've got a thousand years worth of animosity between the Suni and Shitte, and of course, the Kurds in the north are the most beloved people in the Middle East. Getting it ain't gonna be the problem, but it could very well be a case of "Be careful what you ask for ... "

slackologist

yeah i agree, it's ww3 lets go bomb the fuckers and kill everyone, nuke saddam! fuck em all! "america has biiig penis!"

so sad..

there have been a lot of people saying i told you so since 911, expect a few more as time goes on. have fun!

Pleasurepays

kinda like the same people that threw down the weapons and ran screaming accross the desert waving white flags and surrendering by the tens of thousands like last time?

you are making assumptions that you know you can prove and i know i cannot disprove.

Saddam Hussein has NO SUPPORT in his own country and his own government. the entire world seems to agree that Iraq will be a much better place without him, including Iraqs.

we are not talking about a situation like "how would people feel if we whacked the Prime Minister of Australia just because we can". There is no evidence to support the idea that the general population of Iraq will not be 100% supportive of removing Saddam Hussein and his government from power.

The Arab world hates Saddam Hussein. His own people hate him.

the indigo

Man, you deserve a beating... did you leave your fucking country once? Did you go in Africa or Asia? Do you give a fuck about your children that might just die off the environmental problems?

You're like Bush, a fucking monkey without any intelligence.

Pleasurepays

you are the only one talking about WW3, Nuclear attacks and killing everyone while making remarks like

"fuck em all! "america has biiig penis!"

arent those the same type of baseless and ignorante remarks you were ridiculing while inviting someone to debate this issue with you??

theking

Joe Sixpack. I apologize to you for asking slackologist if he is your brother. Even being brainless you are a genius compared to this guy.

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slackologist

no, just the personal attacks :-) that was not directed at anyone.

i do accept your arguments and can see thier valid points.

but, i still think a less violent solution is best for THIS particular problem and would serve america and the world well for generations.

PornoDoggy

I dunno ... read the king's tagline. A whole lotta people who hate Saddam probably love their country, and would be willing to fight an invader. How seriously that's going to affect the situation remains to be seen, but don't assume that because they hate him they are going to welcome us.

theking

YOUR arguments are naive, ideological, and mistaken in some instances. This is the real world. Violent solutions have been around since mankind has and will continue to be around until man ceases to exist. You may be very young.

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slackologist

the king, damn you're so funny. hahahaha. hahaha. heh.

gee, you kill me, really. all this time i thought you were a terrible person, i was wrong, you really are quite a sweetheart, oh is that your dog typing? sorry, my mistake.

how about you go back to topic shit for brains :-)

fuck this i'm starting to get to your level. later.

theking

Occupying any country, if the majority of the people do not open their arms to the occupiers, is very difficult at best. I suspect that the majority of the Iraqi people will initially be over joyed at ridding themselves of Sadam. It is the stated intention of the Administration to democratize Iraq. If this can be accomplished on a timely basis, a long term presence of America may be accepted, if not, who knows the end game.

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Pleasurepays

what was their reaction last time?
Bagdad got nailed pretty hard.
they were for the most part, pretty understanding and accomodating.

today, there is strong speculation that the simple threat of toppling Saddam will cause it to happen from within.

some people try to characterize the situation to look as if a massive military invasion of the Soviet Cold War style is going to happen... where an unwilling country is invaded, people are slaughtered, towns are occupied and taken over and everyone will be forced to wear Levis and eat Big Macs while listening to Britney Spears and N'Sync.

thats not what anyone in the world is proposing. it is about removing 1 person as well as a few around him.

theking

My dog typing. Oh you fucking guy you. Very, very funny. My dog typing. Oh that is a good one, fucking guy. I will be laughing even in my sleep

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sumphatpimp

Why don't we just tell it like it REALLY is??????

This straight from the Secret Service so keep it quite OK?

George W. has a fetish for IRAQI pussy!!!!!!!

really no shit !

He lusts for them in his heart. and in his loins. and other places too.

Its the Texan in him that does it.

Just like his dad.

theking

Thanks for the inside info. Not about oil, not about WMD, but about the best reason in the world, pussy.

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ChrisH

After page two this thread has become unreadable.


Yes Hussein has been a vocal supporter of world peace, and globalization. He would never GAS his people.

He's so nice!