Joint Statement from IBill, CCBill and Epoch / Paycom - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

pimpdog3 · 10-02-2002, 01:38 PM

im going to start pimpdog billing llc.

I could handle this shit better than anyone at both epoch and ccbill. I might be a stupid mother fucker, but i could still handle this way better than either company. fuck you all, i hope you die. DIE BITCHES< DIE!

Shoplifter · 10-02-2002, 01:42 PM

If you read between the lines of the new announcement you can see the shape of the future:

"Sponsored Merchants must be approved by Visa for processing Visa transactions under the new rules"

This means your site can be rejected at Visa's discretion. If you have bad credit, a lewd URL or a criminal record you will be out.

If this doesn't happen right away, it will soon.

TheFLY · 10-02-2002, 01:48 PM

Or maybe this is just a golden opportunity for IBill, CCBill and Epoch to start shaving smaller paysites income... Until now there was no way for a processor to shave a small paysite (was there?) -- now all they have to do is put all the small players under AVS and then start shaving...

FATPad · 10-02-2002, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

So "switch" if you will, but from what I hear, you may not be welcome when you HAVE to return.

Chris
CEO EPOCH / Paycom

If you need a public relations person, I'm available.

Kimmykim · 10-02-2002, 02:39 PM

What a fucking stupid thread. I only read the first two pages and the last one, but I am completely astounded by the fact that people spend more time crying than looking at the situation objectively.

1. Registration fee. Big fucking deal. If you don't have 750 bucks, turn your site into an avs premium, move the price up a little higher and go on with your business. If you have a reseller program and you arent making enough to afford 750 bucks, then you probably need to re-evaluate how you run your business to start with.

Another option is for site owners to group together, start a new shell to receive payment from processors and distribute funds from that corp based on what each site takes in. Of course if a couple people together have enough to pay for the incorporation and accounting I would think they could just pay to register.

2. Location. I have heard, from a merchant banking house in GERMANY that we deal with, that the regulations are the same there as here. On November 1, if we are not incorporated in Germany they will no longer be able to process for us due to these same regulations. Now WHY in the HELL would a third party Euro banking solution make up something like this? They wouldn't. So for everyone screaming about how processors should go offshore, I guess you'd all better be setting up offshore corporations so you can use them. And it's much more expensive to set up and run a corporation in a different country than it is to pay a registration fee in the one you are in.

3. The most important point of all. WHY this is happening. Well it's pretty fucking simple. You take a bunch of cheats and thieves, let them get access to peoples credit cards and then watch what they do. XPICS among others comes to mind for me, though I'll keep the other names quiet since alot of them still do business today.

It's not just Visa that is sick and tired of the fraud and the cheating, it's the banks themselves. 95% of banks DO NOT accept high risk transactions but due to the fact that they are grouped with other banks that do, they become potentially liable for losses incurred by the banks that do take high risk.

This is a high risk business, not a fucking free for all. Visa, and soon to be Mastercard, are well within their rights to do this, they are for profit companies, as are the banks that issue and acquire cards.

Oh and the Mastercard logo thing is pretty simple. It's a copyright violation, and if you are the one with the merch acct then you have no right to use their logo.

Midnyte · 10-02-2002, 02:54 PM

I was just about to re-release my paysite. For me the question isn't 'can I afford to pay $750' because of course I -could- the question is, 'is it worth it to pay $750?' and the answer is likely going to be no. I suspect that my paysite will be becoming a premium AVS site now....

shitty

Petr · 10-02-2002, 02:54 PM

KK, the only problem with the location is that it's really hard to do all the paperwork required to open a US company on such a short notice... hm...

Pipecrew · 10-02-2002, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradShaw
I am all for the paysite business getting harder to get into. I am only disappointed the fee was not more like $5000.

Paysites should be left up to the professionals with experience. Free site and traffic guys should stick with that, they will probably make more $ long term.

The gold rush is over, stop whining. Leave paysite biz up to the pros.

Do you consider yourself a pro? Nice BumCircus button in your sig...... Another ORIGINAL idea by the sic-cash team... idiot

SleazyDream · 10-02-2002, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradShaw
Overall this looks like good news. I hope it helps to limit the people who should not be running paysites in the first place by charging this fee. If you can not afford the $750, you should go find another line of work.

agreed

SleazyDream · 10-02-2002, 03:04 PM

further to

agreed - personally I'd like to see it on any adult Domaign URL too - a $5000 yearly fee if you want to display adult content on your url - free sites too

Cindyff · 10-02-2002, 03:05 PM

OK guys, but have you thought of this. Most of the larger sites have 3 sometimes 4 processors which means 3 or 4 times $750 ???
And yes it may shut down some smaller guys, which i personally don't think is a good thing. But if the big guys like Dannies etc. are the only ones left, then there will be no need for IBILL, GloBILL CCBILL etc. because the bigger sites have there own merchant accounts. So this could be the beginning of the end for third party processing ????

Just my thoughts on this subject.
I would like to here other opinions, the only ones to profit from this fiasco as always will be Visa.
Maybe we should all band together and ask the processing companies to lower their rates 1 or 2 % to help us pay for the fees ?? After all if all the smaller guys go down, they will lose out , dont you think ?

Kimmykim · 10-02-2002, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Petr
KK, the only problem with the location is that it's really hard to do all the paperwork required to open a US company on such a short notice... hm...

That is true Petr -- we were facing that same issue with the German company I mentioned above.

There are still a lot of questions and clarifications to be made to this.

For instance if a US processor has a merchant acct in England, does that processor now have to go and get only US merch accts. Or if that US processor can keep that English acct, can that English acct be used to process for clients in the Visa Euro region?

Is this going to be regional divisions or true country divisions? If it's regional then it may be that those with Antigua, Aruba, etc corps could possibly continue with their current processors who are US, if those processors had merch accts in those regions...

How does something like NAFTA affect the Canadian and Mexican sites if it is done by country and not region? Can Visa override a US law basically with a regulation that inhibits free trade between the countries involved in NAFTA?

See what I mean, there are soooo many variables, and quite frankly I think the actual enforcement of these rulings is where the money will be made or lost.

Also, what will happen to a processor who violates the rules? Will they be fined, will they be terminated, what if they didn't realize that someone was not from the correct region because that person lied on their paperwork and produced bogus documentation to get an account?

The principle here is sound. After all you can't operate a retail store with someone else's merchant account, and especially not someone else who is in a different country entirely. This is just a matter of Visa deciding to enforce what they have not previously with the regions/countries divisions.

As to their collecting money, well you have to pay them to get your own merchant account, and it's more than 500 bucks.

SleazyDream · 10-02-2002, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindyff
OK guys, but have you thought of this. Most of the larger sites have 3 sometimes 4 processors which means 3 or 4 times $750 ???
And yes it may shut down some smaller guys, which i personally don't think is a good thing. But if the big guys like Dannies etc. are the only ones left, then there will be no need for IBILL, GloBILL CCBILL etc. because the bigger sites have there own merchant accounts. So this could be the beginning of the end for third party processing ????

Just my thoughts on this subject.
I would like to here other opinions, the only ones to profit from this fiasco as always will be Visa.
Maybe we should all band together and ask the processing companies to lower their rates 1 or 2 % to help us pay for the fees ?? After all if all the smaller guys go down, they will lose out , dont you think ?

hey - there's a CindyFF that's an escort in Winnipeg? you one and the same person?

http://www.cindyff.com/

Wizzo · 10-02-2002, 03:14 PM

I'm just wondering with all the talk about swapping to AVS systems, how this little rule in the new policy will effect them:

"IPSP?s are required to provide Visa with monthly sales, chargeback and credit data for their review, by Sponsored Merchant and down to the URL of each Sponsored Merchant site. Sponsored Merchants who are out of compliance on chargeback and / or credit ratios may be terminated at Visa?s discretion. Please Note: Your ratios at all IPSP?s will be evaluated by Visa."

Seems to me that one bad AVS site, could kill the whole master acct?

FreeNetPass Dave · 10-02-2002, 03:27 PM

I am pretty sure ALL third billing companies will be affected.

For those of you that run small paysites, don't be discouraged. AVS sites are essentially a collaboration of pay sites. If you can't afford the new fees, find one of the many avs systems out there and compare payouts among them. AVS rebill programs should be able to pay you at least 60% of the sale. When you think about it, you could (and this has been done many times in the past) actually make more money using an avs because of a couple real important factors:
1) Your members have thousands of other sites they can enter with their password, which typically equates to much better rebills.
2) You can use the "multiple site theory" and if the avs provides "bonus content" you can also use that as two major selling points to your site, increasing your sales conversions (signups).

You don't have to go out of business with this change. Changing your site to an avs (for a list try www.megamasters.com/, I am not talking about just my system here, whatever you think fits your site) and you will probably make close to, if not more money than you already do.

If you have any questions about this feel free to post here or email me - [email protected]

McAttack · 10-02-2002, 03:33 PM

I doubt that $750 will "thin the industry" very much. AVS is another way of making some money and if you make enough through that, then you use that cash to pay your own billing fees and go with your own startup company.

What this will do is push webmasters to look for alternatives. Web900 billing should get a boost by this. I know of a few billing solutions which should profit very well from this "scare" and they should. If $1500 is scaring someone into leaving the business, then I feel sorry for them.

It's funny how a bunch of people go from bragging about their cash and their toys, to crying for something that should be chump change for them!

I'm not making mass money, but in this case, I'll have to accept this deal as a bump in the road. I'll go over it, pass it and go on.

wouncie · 10-02-2002, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by McAttack
Web900 billing should get a boost by this.

??????????????????

With 900 billing Ibill keeps a whopping 100%

..... At least they have for the last 4 MONTHS!

d00t · 10-02-2002, 03:44 PM

big companies who say its a good move obviously know they are losing more and more traffic to these guys every day and this new move by visa will ultimately give them more power (and traffic)

Think about when you first got into this game, did you have a $200,000 budget? most of us started with nothing and build up.

Is there an adult industry union? something like that might be a good idea to prevent more of these things from happening (ie: mc)

Kimmykim · 10-02-2002, 03:50 PM

the only reason big companies should be losing traffic is if their resellers dont like them, or they dont convert surfers.

Our traffic is up over 1/3 in the last 60 days, and I would imagine several other large companies are seeing an increase in traffic as well...

Voodoo · 10-02-2002, 03:51 PM

Does anyone have a clue what this will do to PayPal????
If so, please post.

SetTheWorldonFire · 10-02-2002, 03:51 PM

Time to give away more free porn

ElvisManson · 10-02-2002, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
the only reason big companies should be losing traffic is if their resellers dont like them, or they dont convert surfers.

Our traffic is up over 1/3 in the last 60 days, and I would imagine several other large companies are seeing an increase in traffic as well...

Agreed.. to both paragraphs.

to say that smaller paysites are taking business away from us is ridiculous.....

salsbury · 10-02-2002, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by d00t
big companies who say its a good move obviously know they are losing more and more traffic to these guys every day and this new move by visa will ultimately give them more power (and traffic)

Think about when you first got into this game, did you have a $200,000 budget? most of us started with nothing and build up.

Is there an adult industry union? something like that might be a good idea to prevent more of these things from happening (ie: mc)

a $200,000 budget is required to spend $750 and $350 per year? holy cow.

i don't think you know what you're suggesting suggesting unionization. the corruption of regular unions plus the "it's just online porn, it's all a scam, might as well screw 'em all too" attitude a lot of people have = an incredible amount of doom.

there are very few businesses that you can start with under $1k. what's the problem with that?

Plat · 10-02-2002, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SleazyDream
further to

agreed - personally I'd like to see it on any adult Domaign URL too - a $5000 yearly fee if you want to display adult content on your url - free sites too

slow down there cowboy

gotys · 10-02-2002, 04:10 PM

h,mmm.... a good time to sell my site

Gramma · 10-02-2002, 04:17 PM

One part I REALLY don't like .. is the sharing of my personal and private information and income.
The IRS used Visa to crack down on offshore accounts - now they can use these new regulations to take a closer look at adult companies and their income.
Bastards.
And of course - a few years ago we had to cough up $2500 to keep one company doing our transactions .. and now we have to cough up more $ to keep it going again. I just feel like I'm being blackmailed - or held for ransom sometimes. It's not the amount of $ they're charging us - it's just the fact they ARE charging us.

and of course - Big Brother will be watching.

You think the Visa people going to like looking at naked old women? I don't THINK so ...... I wonder who is going to get the job of checking adult URLS at Visa? Maybe there is a new occupation for defunct adult webmasters.

steffie · 10-02-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gramma

You think the Visa people going to like looking at naked old women? I don't THINK so ...... I wonder who is going to get the job of checking adult URLS at Visa? Maybe there is a new occupation for defunct adult webmasters.

Hey Gramma, damn youre right.. We should apply? eh? I bet they pay good and I can do that from home

Voodoo · 10-02-2002, 04:50 PM

Something to think about...

Why is VISA going to charge ALL merchants? If they are worried about excessive chargebacks, should they just collect URL data, and only charge penalties or ban the sites that are excessive?

To say that VISA is doing this to recoop their losses over the past decade in the porn industry, would be ludicris. It is another way that VISA thinks they can make money, but, I think they will find out that when MC starts getting their business... they may change their tune.

Now, I understand why they are doing this, however, to recoop losses from charge backs via charging webmasters is off base. For 1, considering that the supposed "Offender" or paysite that has excessive chargebacks has been in the industry for a long time... I would almost bet that they have a specificly detailed Terms of Service section, that would provide the surfer with all of the information that they could ever want to know about how they are going to be charged... just to back themselves up in court (if it should come to that).

If a site has a well written terms of service stating all charges and durations that apply, and the surfer still feels "tricked" into signing up and disputes the charge... These charges should be put on the illiterate surfer, not the site/webmaster.

In any case, I agree w/ Grandma (in an earlier post)... I think it is just another way for Big Brother to get their hands further into our wallets, and control the industry.

Also, another point I wanted to make is this.... Surfers are not trust worthy. They will charge back almost anything, especially porn. Wife sees CC statement, and confronts Hubby with "What the hell is BUTTFUCK PLAZA doing on the credit card?"... Hubby says, "I don't know hon... It must be a mistake." and then the call to the CC company is made to dispute the charge. Once the charge has been disputed, hubby gets his personal card out, to go back to BUTTFUCKPLAZA.COM, as he knows that his bill for that card goes to the office, and not his home. Now he's set. He can jerk to all the ass slamming that he wants.

There are MANY situations that result in the unscrupulous surfer's decision to charge back. I don't believe that the sites should be fully accountable for this. However, I think VISA is looking for a punching bag, and they can't very well go after their customers, so they go after the merchants (Who are well established, and are worried about keeping a good credit rating, and keeping their businesses afloat).

But, what does it matter anyways?
The sun is going to explode in 6 years.
So, let's all put away our pornboxes, and have one big orgy.

jimmyf · 10-02-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradShaw
I am all for the paysite business getting harder to get into. I am only disappointed the fee was not more like $5000.

Paysites should be left up to the professionals with experience. Free site and traffic guys should stick with that, they will probably make more $ long term.

The gold rush is over, stop whining. Leave paysite biz up to the pros.

I have NO ideal were you came up with this statement... Am not in the paysite Biz... so I really don't give a flying fuck.

This is what I do not understand...
( "Paysites should be left up to the professionals with experience. Free site and traffic guys should stick with that, they will probably make more $ long term.)" Now just were and how in the hell did you get all of this experience... Did you just wake up one morning and knew how to run a BIG paysite...

Some of you people make it $$ and really have NO ideal how you got there and were you are going... and some should just keep mouth closed... BradShaw I don't know you nor do I have a thing against you. I just think so far yours is the most stupid stamement I'v read.

2 fucking funny

jimmyf · 10-02-2002, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gramma
One part I REALLY don't like .. is the sharing of my personal and private information and income.
The IRS used Visa to crack down on offshore accounts - now they can use these new regulations to take a closer look at adult companies and their income.
Bastards.
And of course - a few years ago we had to cough up $2500 to keep one company doing our transactions .. and now we have to cough up more $ to keep it going again. I just feel like I'm being blackmailed - or held for ransom sometimes. It's not the amount of $ they're charging us - it's just the fact they ARE charging us.

and of course - Big Brother will be watching.

You think the Visa people going to like looking at naked old women? I don't THINK so ...... I wonder who is going to get the job of checking adult URLS at Visa? Maybe there is a new occupation for defunct adult webmasters.

I don't know...but you may have hit on something... Wonder if the IRS has anything to do with this?

E-Randy · 10-02-2002, 05:32 PM

Too much drama! Visa has been charging the $750 a year fee for holders of their own merchant accounts for a while now. I paid fucking thousands of $$ every month in chargeback fees, credits, discount fees, reserves, etc! Visa is one fucked up company that doesn't give a fuck about the merchants that make it's shit go around. It's not just adult merchants that have problems with chargebacks, many mainstream companies have major chargeback issues also. It's just they don't have to pay the $750 fee because they are "acceptable" types of business. Fuck them. If that's not discrimination against our business, I don't know what is. The only way that VISA, MC and others are going to wake up is if merchants boycott them or a killer alternative payment system is born. Otherwise, we'll always be at the mercy of the cc companies. YEP, EVEN THE BIG DAWGS!

jimmyf · 10-02-2002, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by E-Randy
Too much drama! Visa has been charging the $750 a year fee for holders of their own merchant accounts for a while now. I paid fucking thousands of $$ every month in chargeback fees, credits, discount fees, reserves, etc! Visa is one fucked up company that doesn't give a fuck about the merchants that make it's shit go around. It's not just adult merchants that have problems with chargebacks, many mainstream companies have major chargeback issues also. It's just they don't have to pay the $750 fee because they are "acceptable" types of business. Fuck them. If that's not discrimination against our business, I don't know what is. The only way that VISA, MC and others are going to wake up is if merchants boycott them or a killer alternative payment system is born. Otherwise, we'll always be at the mercy of the cc companies. YEP, EVEN THE BIG DAWGS!

I think the big Casino's have come up with there own... FirePay I think is the name of it.. porn Biz will wake up... 1 day...or the big 3 or 4 big guys like ccbill...ibill and others will get together...if they don't someone else will....

mrthumbs · 10-02-2002, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradShaw
Overall this looks like good news. I hope it helps to limit the people who should not be running paysites in the first place by charging this fee. If you can not afford the $750, you should go find another line of work.

Indeed, just what i was thinking.

I'm quite happy with this actually. Evolution and
regulation in the making.

tha_timinator · 10-02-2002, 07:07 PM

still awaiting the climax of today's soap opera...

mrthumbs · 10-02-2002, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pleasurepays
crisis = opportunity for true business people
crisis = death for people who were never businessmen to begin with.

Right on! Good post!

chupacabra · 10-02-2002, 07:15 PM

the way everything stands so far, and based on whats been said here today, i am hoping/assuming we don't need to be worried about this at the moment... the fee is no big deal, we'll absorb that as the cost of doing business (yet another), and we already have an american LLC setup in the states, and make use of ccBill... we also rarely see any chargebacks, certainly nothing unusually high at all.

are we ok then? no worries, at least about this? thx all... lots to absorb in these threads today..!

Serge_Oprano · 10-02-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
the only reason big companies should be losing traffic is if their resellers dont like them, or they dont convert surfers.

Our traffic is up over 1/3 in the last 60 days, and I would imagine several other large companies are seeing an increase in traffic as well...

Kimmy Kim,
if you are so smart,
why Brad doesn't marry you?

does he think you are a phony?

AM Jeff · 10-02-2002, 07:38 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Chris Mallick

So "switch" if you will, but from what I hear, you may not be welcome when you HAVE to return.

Chris
CEO EPOCH / Paycom
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, what Chris is trying to say.

Epoch has more reasons to fuck up payments to Webmasters.

Way to go Epoch.

TFG... I use Jettis....
At least...they don't miss payments like some companies.

Get that hint Chris?

AM Jeff · 10-02-2002, 07:56 PM

Kimmy...I agree with you.

Too many scammers, spammers and theives in this business trying to make a quick buck.

Granted, I don't agree with the privacy issue.
If I have to disclose that...fuck it..might as well get my own merchant account.
Folks...this will help weed out a few of the rotten apples, not all, but a few.
Kimmy is right. If you don't have $750 to pay your billing fees, your in the wrong business. In any business, you have bills and fees. In this business, you don't have expenses like most regular businesses do.

Bottom line is.
If you can't afford the $750 that you have to pay Epoch boys or whoever. McDonalds, I hear are hiring, with benifits too.

Clean up your act and look thru your paysites, if you own any, go thru your tours and make sure they are misinterpeting, terms and conditions, etc..etc.
Help Sponsors weed out spammers. (Sponsors, pay a bounty fee on any webmaster that catches spammers, cheaters. You'll find your shit is being cleaned up.

And instead of bitching about $750. If you want to continue to process with those 3 companies. Pay the friggin bill.

If not, find a solution to your problem and find a new processor to handle your needs.

Simple as that.

Don't like it...sell your site to me and get the fuck out.
If the site is good or the domain name is decent. I'll pay top dollar.

[H] · 10-02-2002, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AM Jeff
If not, find a solution to your problem and find a new processor to handle your needs.

Simple as that.

solution found.

Kimmykim · 10-02-2002, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AM Jeff

Too many scammers, spammers and theives in this business trying to make a quick buck.

Off the top of my head I can count ten companies in the last three years that have done nothing but rip the surfers for as much as they can, figuring they will deal with the chargebacks later.

They burn thru merchant accounts, they import databases into other merchant accounts and perhaps don't bother to clean the known cancels and cbs out of those dbs before the import, then the rack up another huge set of cb's and lose another merch acct and the vicious cycle keeps right on going.

Maybe you people don't quite understand it -- Visa is not a big bad wolf. Visa (and MC) is made up of groups of member banks. Banks which are sick and fucking tired, and rightfully so, of picking up the tab for bullshit that happens over and over. These accounts are like drug addicts -- they always claim they'll stop but then the lure of the dope is too much so they do it again.

Who suffers? Everyone in the end. It doesn't make fuck all at this point whether you did anything wrong or not -- you can thank some of your sponsors for your grief, since THEY are the ones that caused it.

Surfers suck too, but a guy who deceitfully charges back 8 months of a membership because his wife caught him is NOTHING compared to a scheming site owner who causes thousands of needless chargebacks and nothing but headaches for the banking system.

rdunn404 · 10-02-2002, 09:09 PM

prtynked · 10-02-2002, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by media
So this is a $750 fee for Mastercard, $750 Fee for Visa, And A $350 annual fee? so the $1500 covers you for all paysites.. not per url.. it covers you as a company as a whole.. thats not too bad really.. but some people might have issues with this.. they are already fucking you for 15% or whatever now they want a annual and registration fee..

We just got fucked kinda.. but its also good for the people that can afford to pay.. cuz now all the sites that are popping up that are basicly pay/avs sites will be gone.. cuz them places dont have the means to pay this shit.. most of em at least..

Media

Another thing I don't think that people are considering is the effect this will also have on the hosting companies, who are going to lose a great deal of revenue as a result of this damaging proposal.

Not to mention that all this registering your Domains kind of makes it easy for the gov't to track us. Kind of reminds me of how the Jews were forced to register in Nazi Germany.

kevinl · 10-02-2002, 09:25 PM

Am I understasnding that those that process with globill do not have to worry about being affected by the new regs?
That doesn't seem possible. Can someone from Globill explain that? Why would ibill, ccbill, and epoch not move offshore? What reason would you have to stay with them?

Lexxx · 10-02-2002, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gary
So is this 750 per processor or just once to visa? So if you use 3 processors on your site, do you pay 3 times?

YES, You pay $2250 or $750 for EACH processor you use PLUS all the fees x whatever number as well... according to a new CCBILL's ISPS-FAQ

smashface · 10-02-2002, 10:09 PM

Im new here so I apologize for the ingnorance. Are CCBill, Ibill and Epoch all owned by the smae corporation?

playa · 10-02-2002, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smashface
Im new here so I apologize for the ingnorance. Are CCBill, Ibill and Epoch all owned by the smae corporation?

no

Socks · 10-02-2002, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradShaw
I am all for the paysite business getting harder to get into. I am only disappointed the fee was not more like $5000.

Paysites should be left up to the professionals with experience. Free site and traffic guys should stick with that, they will probably make more $ long term.

The gold rush is over, stop whining. Leave paysite biz up to the pros.

That's bullshit Brad. There are tons of great little paysites out there who aren't here to put up 50 sites and fish with big nets, they're just happy to make a bit of a profit and enjoy getting naked to fulfill their own desires. You are in a different business than they are. I agree there are too many crappy paysites, hell I review their innards, but it also hurts the mom and pop operations.

Pornkings · 10-02-2002, 10:42 PM

We all new the shakedown was coming. Same thing happend back in the audiotext days.
It was just a matter of time.

Get to know your sponsors up close and personal.

Surfers know what they are getting into.
They also know that they can Cancel and chargeback because of the 0 tolereance campaigns.

Visa and MC will protect the consumer before they protect us no matter what. So pick a Processor who has great customer support to keep the cancels and chargeback down.

Visa and MC don't care if they Chargeback because those consumers use there CC for everything in there day to day lives

Things will continue but many will drop off

mrbling · 10-02-2002, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

As to their collecting money, well you have to pay them to get your own merchant account, and it's more than 500 bucks.

KK,

that statement is wrong, a merchant account can be obtained for under $250-300.

Which is much less then $750.

Not to mention

a) with a merchant account your percentages are only 3% & SETUP FEE is only $300

IMHO, the 3rd party BUSINESS is dead, there is no reason to use 3rd parties anymore.

The usual reasons were:

a) $0 setup (for small sites)
b) Foreign business who can't obtain merchant accounts
c) Customer support ?

Now, both perks are gone.

EPOCH, CCBILL, IBILL:

You guys forgot to tell us webmasters that there is no reason to process with you guys anymore other then customer service.

You can get everything and more with a merchant account for less then $300 and only 3% instead of 15%

I'm no way affiliated but heres a few sites you guys can visit:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...chant+accounts
Or call netbilling.com

Most of them have adult merchant accounts and the percentage is only 3-4% and setup fee is ONLY $300.

#########
The real reason of these new policies were not to hurt the adult industry, but to KILL the 3rd party business. They do not want any 3rd parties in between. The only business 3rd parties are going to get now is OLD business who do not want to change.

The law has been laid down.

10-02-2002, 03:04 PM	#160
SleazyDream I'm here for SPORT Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phone # (401) 285-0696 Posts: 41,470	further to agreed - personally I'd like to see it on any adult Domaign URL too - a $5000 yearly fee if you want to display adult content on your url - free sites too __________________ This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog! Now read without the word dog.

10-02-2002, 03:14 PM	#164
Wizzo 2011 GFY Hall of Fame! Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Back in Texas! Posts: 15,224	I'm just wondering with all the talk about swapping to AVS systems, how this little rule in the new policy will effect them: "IPSP?s are required to provide Visa with monthly sales, chargeback and credit data for their review, by Sponsored Merchant and down to the URL of each Sponsored Merchant site. Sponsored Merchants who are out of compliance on chargeback and / or credit ratios may be terminated at Visa?s discretion. Please Note: Your ratios at all IPSP?s will be evaluated by Visa." Seems to me that one bad AVS site, could kill the whole master acct? __________________ Looking for Opportunity!

10-02-2002, 03:27 PM	#165
FreeNetPass Dave Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 270	I am pretty sure ALL third billing companies will be affected. For those of you that run small paysites, don't be discouraged. AVS sites are essentially a collaboration of pay sites. If you can't afford the new fees, find one of the many avs systems out there and compare payouts among them. AVS rebill programs should be able to pay you at least 60% of the sale. When you think about it, you could (and this has been done many times in the past) actually make more money using an avs because of a couple real important factors: 1) Your members have thousands of other sites they can enter with their password, which typically equates to much better rebills. 2) You can use the "multiple site theory" and if the avs provides "bonus content" you can also use that as two major selling points to your site, increasing your sales conversions (signups). You don't have to go out of business with this change. Changing your site to an avs (for a list try www.megamasters.com/, I am not talking about just my system here, whatever you think fits your site) and you will probably make close to, if not more money than you already do. If you have any questions about this feel free to post here or email me - [email protected] __________________ ICQ: 102858186 FreeNetPass AVS : $15/FREE membership even if the surfer cancels! $17 recurring Premiums! Adult Insider : Webmaster resources, daily news, FREE stuff for posting. PornStarBucks : Jenna Jameson, Briana Banks, Jill Kelly, and now Tera Patrick!

10-02-2002, 03:33 PM	#166
McAttack Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 625	I doubt that $750 will "thin the industry" very much. AVS is another way of making some money and if you make enough through that, then you use that cash to pay your own billing fees and go with your own startup company. What this will do is push webmasters to look for alternatives. Web900 billing should get a boost by this. I know of a few billing solutions which should profit very well from this "scare" and they should. If $1500 is scaring someone into leaving the business, then I feel sorry for them. It's funny how a bunch of people go from bragging about their cash and their toys, to crying for something that should be chump change for them! I'm not making mass money, but in this case, I'll have to accept this deal as a bump in the road. I'll go over it, pass it and go on. __________________ You know Teen Kelly converts like crazy.

10-02-2002, 03:51 PM	#170
Voodoo ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Porn Valley, CA Posts: 10,590	Does anyone have a clue what this will do to PayPal???? If so, please post. __________________ "I'm selflessly supporting the common good, but only coincidentally looking out for No.1."

10-02-2002, 01:38 PM	#151
pimpdog3 So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 652	im going to start pimpdog billing llc. I could handle this shit better than anyone at both epoch and ccbill. I might be a stupid mother fucker, but i could still handle this way better than either company. fuck you all, i hope you die. DIE BITCHES< DIE!

10-02-2002, 01:42 PM	#152
Shoplifter Richest man in Babylon Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Posts: 10,002 Posts: 5,696	If you read between the lines of the new announcement you can see the shape of the future: "Sponsored Merchants must be approved by Visa for processing Visa transactions under the new rules" This means your site can be rejected at Visa's discretion. If you have bad credit, a lewd URL or a criminal record you will be out. If this doesn't happen right away, it will soon.

10-02-2002, 01:48 PM	#153
TheFLY So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: http://www.thefly.net/ --- Quit your job and live off steady traffic. Posts: 11,856	Or maybe this is just a golden opportunity for IBill, CCBill and Epoch to start shaving smaller paysites income... Until now there was no way for a processor to shave a small paysite (was there?) -- now all they have to do is put all the small players under AVS and then start shaving...

10-02-2002, 02:39 PM	#155
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	What a fucking stupid thread. I only read the first two pages and the last one, but I am completely astounded by the fact that people spend more time crying than looking at the situation objectively. 1. Registration fee. Big fucking deal. If you don't have 750 bucks, turn your site into an avs premium, move the price up a little higher and go on with your business. If you have a reseller program and you arent making enough to afford 750 bucks, then you probably need to re-evaluate how you run your business to start with. Another option is for site owners to group together, start a new shell to receive payment from processors and distribute funds from that corp based on what each site takes in. Of course if a couple people together have enough to pay for the incorporation and accounting I would think they could just pay to register. 2. Location. I have heard, from a merchant banking house in GERMANY that we deal with, that the regulations are the same there as here. On November 1, if we are not incorporated in Germany they will no longer be able to process for us due to these same regulations. Now WHY in the HELL would a third party Euro banking solution make up something like this? They wouldn't. So for everyone screaming about how processors should go offshore, I guess you'd all better be setting up offshore corporations so you can use them. And it's much more expensive to set up and run a corporation in a different country than it is to pay a registration fee in the one you are in. 3. The most important point of all. WHY this is happening. Well it's pretty fucking simple. You take a bunch of cheats and thieves, let them get access to peoples credit cards and then watch what they do. XPICS among others comes to mind for me, though I'll keep the other names quiet since alot of them still do business today. It's not just Visa that is sick and tired of the fraud and the cheating, it's the banks themselves. 95% of banks DO NOT accept high risk transactions but due to the fact that they are grouped with other banks that do, they become potentially liable for losses incurred by the banks that do take high risk. This is a high risk business, not a fucking free for all. Visa, and soon to be Mastercard, are well within their rights to do this, they are for profit companies, as are the banks that issue and acquire cards. Oh and the Mastercard logo thing is pretty simple. It's a copyright violation, and if you are the one with the merch acct then you have no right to use their logo.

10-02-2002, 02:54 PM	#156
Midnyte Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 126	I was just about to re-release my paysite. For me the question isn't 'can I afford to pay $750' because of course I -could- the question is, 'is it worth it to pay $750?' and the answer is likely going to be no. I suspect that my paysite will be becoming a premium AVS site now.... shitty

10-02-2002, 02:54 PM	#157
Petr Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 502	KK, the only problem with the location is that it's really hard to do all the paperwork required to open a US company on such a short notice... hm...

10-02-2002, 03:05 PM	#161
Cindyff Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California Posts: 1,187	OK guys, but have you thought of this. Most of the larger sites have 3 sometimes 4 processors which means 3 or 4 times $750 ??? And yes it may shut down some smaller guys, which i personally don't think is a good thing. But if the big guys like Dannies etc. are the only ones left, then there will be no need for IBILL, GloBILL CCBILL etc. because the bigger sites have there own merchant accounts. So this could be the beginning of the end for third party processing ???? Just my thoughts on this subject. I would like to here other opinions, the only ones to profit from this fiasco as always will be Visa. Maybe we should all band together and ask the processing companies to lower their rates 1 or 2 % to help us pay for the fees ?? After all if all the smaller guys go down, they will lose out , dont you think ?

10-02-2002, 03:44 PM	#168
d00t Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In your mind Posts: 3,766	big companies who say its a good move obviously know they are losing more and more traffic to these guys every day and this new move by visa will ultimately give them more power (and traffic) Think about when you first got into this game, did you have a $200,000 budget? most of us started with nothing and build up. Is there an adult industry union? something like that might be a good idea to prevent more of these things from happening (ie: mc)

10-02-2002, 03:50 PM	#169
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	the only reason big companies should be losing traffic is if their resellers dont like them, or they dont convert surfers. Our traffic is up over 1/3 in the last 60 days, and I would imagine several other large companies are seeing an increase in traffic as well...

10-02-2002, 03:51 PM	#171
SetTheWorldonFire Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: California Posts: 7,444	Time to give away more free porn __________________ www.STWOFDesign.com hit me up on icq 154206276 or Skype: JaimeGizzle

10-02-2002, 04:10 PM	#175
gotys Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 767	h,mmm.... a good time to sell my site __________________ PicHunter.com,ClipHunter.com,HomeTwat.com -------------------------------------------- not accepting any trades, not selling spots

10-02-2002, 04:17 PM	#176
Gramma Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 402	One part I REALLY don't like .. is the sharing of my personal and private information and income. The IRS used Visa to crack down on offshore accounts - now they can use these new regulations to take a closer look at adult companies and their income. Bastards. And of course - a few years ago we had to cough up $2500 to keep one company doing our transactions .. and now we have to cough up more $ to keep it going again. I just feel like I'm being blackmailed - or held for ransom sometimes. It's not the amount of $ they're charging us - it's just the fact they ARE charging us. and of course - Big Brother will be watching. You think the Visa people going to like looking at naked old women? I don't THINK so ...... I wonder who is going to get the job of checking adult URLS at Visa? Maybe there is a new occupation for defunct adult webmasters. __________________ gramma at ix.netcom.com

10-02-2002, 04:50 PM	#178
Voodoo ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Porn Valley, CA Posts: 10,590	Something to think about... Why is VISA going to charge ALL merchants? If they are worried about excessive chargebacks, should they just collect URL data, and only charge penalties or ban the sites that are excessive? To say that VISA is doing this to recoop their losses over the past decade in the porn industry, would be ludicris. It is another way that VISA thinks they can make money, but, I think they will find out that when MC starts getting their business... they may change their tune. Now, I understand why they are doing this, however, to recoop losses from charge backs via charging webmasters is off base. For 1, considering that the supposed "Offender" or paysite that has excessive chargebacks has been in the industry for a long time... I would almost bet that they have a specificly detailed Terms of Service section, that would provide the surfer with all of the information that they could ever want to know about how they are going to be charged... just to back themselves up in court (if it should come to that). If a site has a well written terms of service stating all charges and durations that apply, and the surfer still feels "tricked" into signing up and disputes the charge... These charges should be put on the illiterate surfer, not the site/webmaster. In any case, I agree w/ Grandma (in an earlier post)... I think it is just another way for Big Brother to get their hands further into our wallets, and control the industry. Also, another point I wanted to make is this.... Surfers are not trust worthy. They will charge back almost anything, especially porn. Wife sees CC statement, and confronts Hubby with "What the hell is BUTTFUCK PLAZA doing on the credit card?"... Hubby says, "I don't know hon... It must be a mistake." and then the call to the CC company is made to dispute the charge. Once the charge has been disputed, hubby gets his personal card out, to go back to BUTTFUCKPLAZA.COM, as he knows that his bill for that card goes to the office, and not his home. Now he's set. He can jerk to all the ass slamming that he wants. There are MANY situations that result in the unscrupulous surfer's decision to charge back. I don't believe that the sites should be fully accountable for this. However, I think VISA is looking for a punching bag, and they can't very well go after their customers, so they go after the merchants (Who are well established, and are worried about keeping a good credit rating, and keeping their businesses afloat). But, what does it matter anyways? The sun is going to explode in 6 years. So, let's all put away our pornboxes, and have one big orgy. __________________ "I'm selflessly supporting the common good, but only coincidentally looking out for No.1."

10-02-2002, 05:32 PM	#181
E-Randy Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 176	Too much drama! Visa has been charging the $750 a year fee for holders of their own merchant accounts for a while now. I paid fucking thousands of $$ every month in chargeback fees, credits, discount fees, reserves, etc! Visa is one fucked up company that doesn't give a fuck about the merchants that make it's shit go around. It's not just adult merchants that have problems with chargebacks, many mainstream companies have major chargeback issues also. It's just they don't have to pay the $750 fee because they are "acceptable" types of business. Fuck them. If that's not discrimination against our business, I don't know what is. The only way that VISA, MC and others are going to wake up is if merchants boycott them or a killer alternative payment system is born. Otherwise, we'll always be at the mercy of the cc companies. YEP, EVEN THE BIG DAWGS! __________________ ElectraContent.com 31 KICK ASS plugin products for $399! Massive Rods, College Girls, Panties, Lesbians, Toys and dildos, Dirty Blondes, Petite, Interracial, Sexy Housewives........

10-02-2002, 07:07 PM	#184
tha_timinator Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands Posts: 590	still awaiting the climax of today's soap opera... __________________ CELEBRITYSTART.COM

10-02-2002, 07:15 PM	#186
chupacabra Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,626	the way everything stands so far, and based on whats been said here today, i am hoping/assuming we don't need to be worried about this at the moment... the fee is no big deal, we'll absorb that as the cost of doing business (yet another), and we already have an american LLC setup in the states, and make use of ccBill... we also rarely see any chargebacks, certainly nothing unusually high at all. are we ok then? no worries, at least about this? thx all... lots to absorb in these threads today..!

10-02-2002, 07:38 PM	#188
AM Jeff Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The House Of Rage Posts: 1,320	-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Chris Mallick So "switch" if you will, but from what I hear, you may not be welcome when you HAVE to return. Chris CEO EPOCH / Paycom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In other words, what Chris is trying to say. Epoch has more reasons to fuck up payments to Webmasters. Way to go Epoch. TFG... I use Jettis.... At least...they don't miss payments like some companies. Get that hint Chris?

10-02-2002, 07:56 PM	#189
AM Jeff Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The House Of Rage Posts: 1,320	Kimmy...I agree with you. Too many scammers, spammers and theives in this business trying to make a quick buck. Granted, I don't agree with the privacy issue. If I have to disclose that...fuck it..might as well get my own merchant account. Folks...this will help weed out a few of the rotten apples, not all, but a few. Kimmy is right. If you don't have $750 to pay your billing fees, your in the wrong business. In any business, you have bills and fees. In this business, you don't have expenses like most regular businesses do. Bottom line is. If you can't afford the $750 that you have to pay Epoch boys or whoever. McDonalds, I hear are hiring, with benifits too. Clean up your act and look thru your paysites, if you own any, go thru your tours and make sure they are misinterpeting, terms and conditions, etc..etc. Help Sponsors weed out spammers. (Sponsors, pay a bounty fee on any webmaster that catches spammers, cheaters. You'll find your shit is being cleaned up. And instead of bitching about $750. If you want to continue to process with those 3 companies. Pay the friggin bill. If not, find a solution to your problem and find a new processor to handle your needs. Simple as that. Don't like it...sell your site to me and get the fuck out. If the site is good or the domain name is decent. I'll pay top dollar.

10-02-2002, 09:09 PM	#192
rdunn404 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 999

10-02-2002, 09:25 PM	#194
kevinl Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: US Posts: 261	Am I understasnding that those that process with globill do not have to worry about being affected by the new regs? That doesn't seem possible. Can someone from Globill explain that? Why would ibill, ccbill, and epoch not move offshore? What reason would you have to stay with them? __________________ kevinl

10-02-2002, 10:09 PM	#196
smashface Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 991	Im new here so I apologize for the ingnorance. Are CCBill, Ibill and Epoch all owned by the smae corporation?

10-02-2002, 10:42 PM	#199
Pornkings Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Roger V Posts: 5,334	We all new the shakedown was coming. Same thing happend back in the audiotext days. It was just a matter of time. Get to know your sponsors up close and personal. Surfers know what they are getting into. They also know that they can Cancel and chargeback because of the 0 tolereance campaigns. Visa and MC will protect the consumer before they protect us no matter what. So pick a Processor who has great customer support to keep the cancels and chargeback down. Visa and MC don't care if they Chargeback because those consumers use there CC for everything in there day to day lives Things will continue but many will drop off __________________ Pornkings.com Last edited by Pornkings; 10-02-2002 at 10:43 PM..