TheDoc

Wasn't it was proven that his models knew and had consented to the events taking place in his films? I think this is part of the reason they took the consenting adults direction.

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Quentin

As I understand it, the Internet doesn't necessarily have to be involved in the way the indicted material was distributed for local community downloading and/or searching habits to be introduced as evidence of the pertinent community standard. Some judges allow such evidence under their interpretation of relevant case law, others do not. Unless I'm mistaken, in the case that I'm aware of that Jeffrey Douglas introduced search data as an exhibit, the material indicted was DVD content. (I'm pretty sure that's correct, because I don't believe that Jeffrey has been involved with any obscenity cases where the content was strictly distributed via the Internet.)

Some judges will not even allow you to present evidence of what is for sale in local porn shops, btw -- the government typically argues that this is evidence merely of what is *available* in the community, and as such that information simply isn't probative with respect to what the community finds acceptable/tolerable, and some judges have concurred with that reasoning.

Personally, I think search/download data is more relevant than what is available in the local shops. Now, if lawyers could provide data on what material is actually being purchased and/or rented from those shops, that would be highly relevant, I should think. Naturally, my opinion on any of this means squat... somewhat less than squat, actually, since I'm no way qualified to assess the propriety of any judges' interpretation of the rules of evidence.

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Q. Boyer

baddog

Have they been?

Quentin

i don't think they've reached that point in the trial, and I have no idea what the defense has prepared in terms of exhibits or evidence. Since jumping the fence back to the subscription website side of the biz again, I'm not as hooked in to the goings-on of the trial as I would have been if I were covering this for one of the industry publications/news sites.

From Mark Kernes' latest article about day 2 of the trial, it sure sounds like the Internet has come in as an issue, though:

"The prosecution's first witness was James Fottrell, a computer forensics specialist who testified that he had done a "traceroute" search on the Website maxhardcore.com, and had also downloaded the contents of that site - including roughly 950 .wmv video files, some of which were promotional trailers designated "Euro Version" - to a hard drive. He further testified that at least five of those video files were "available to the public," including the "Euro" trailers for Max Extreme 20, Pure Max 19, Golden Guzzlers 7, Fists of Fury 4, and Planet Max 16 - which the prosecution then proceeded to play for the jury ... and the approximately 15 legal interns from around the courthouse who had gathered in the audience for the presentation."

Mark's article, as usual for Mr. Kernes, is highly detailed and chock full of info. Kudos Mark!

- Q.

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Q. Boyer

baddog

I meant, are the citizens of Tampa downloading this stuff hands over fist (no pun intended)?

Pleasurepays

why does it suck for him? he chose this heat. he knew it would come. he wanted it and wants it. thats the personality he has and why he produces what he does. its not like he isn't a damaged person and actually running a YMCA during the day time and volunteering his time for youth groups and raising money for cancer victims. he chose all this attention and chose it on behalf of the entire industry

i would say it sucks for the industry as a whole that one guy will go out of his way to potentially destroy a billion dollar industry for doing a who lot of things that we all agree we would be much better off without.

Quentin

Ah -- I totally missed the joke. Duuuhhhh, Q.

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Q. Boyer

FightThisPatent

[QUOTE=Pleasurepays;14250921]If people in this biz weren't totally retarded, totally disorganized and actually had some guidelines and standards to work and live by this industry wouldn't have many real legal problems. .................../QUOTE]


f* righteous post! I should have quoted the whole thing so if anyone missed it they should have read it, or read it again and tell 2 other people.


Fight the wakeless!

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CDSmith

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fuzebox

It would be interesting if he loses, and then in 6 months the government takes the next step and starts cracking down on vanilla hardcore porn...

Snake Doctor

That's way off base Mike.

This is a win-win for guys like you.

If Max is convicted, then how does that hurt you? You can't compare videos of girls getting pissed on, puking, and pretending to be underage to the stuff you film. It's a night and day difference.
Him going down in no way makes it any more likely that the government will A) go after you, or B) obtain a conviction if they do.

On the other hand, if Max is acquitted, then there's no way in hell a prosecutor will think they can get a conviction against "vanilla porn" when they can't get a jury to rule that pissing in someone's mouth is obscene.

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BVF

Man calm down....Max Hardcore doesn't have the influence to ruin SHIT.....There is WAY too much money to be made for every last pornographer to go down and become homeless because Max is in court....

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CDSmith

Agreed.

If it wasn't Max "bringing down the heat on the industry" it would be someone else. Industry people tout Larry Flynt as a hero to our cause, but back in the late 70's and early 80's his stuff was pushing the boundary of good taste at the time, and like Max is today he was criticized for pushing that boundary.

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Snake Doctor

Possibly #1 for the reasons that Quentin already mentioned.

Also, something that was mentioned in the article....the defense was able to get the judge to go along with the idea that the community merely had to "tolerate" such content, not "accept" it.

Possibly #3.
There are artists with NEA grants who put a crucifix in a glass of urine and call that art. I wouldn't be surprised if several things like that were presented to the jury by the defense attorneys.

Also, the work has to be "taken as a whole"
I haven't watched the DVD's in question but I'm sure there's a good reason that the defense is insisting that the jurors be forced to watch all 5 DVD's in their entirety, and that reason isn't that they think these folks are going to be happy about watching 10+ hours of Max Hardcore's content.


And, law aside, what it's really going to come down to is do a bunch of people from Florida think they should be able to put a California man in prison to do hard time because someone voluntarily went to his website and ordered a DVD that some people will find objectionable?
The only people who were forced to watch this are the members of the jury. Anyone else who sees it chooses to do so, all of the performers chose to perform and signed releases and were paid handsomely for their time.

I still have a little faith in the American spirit.

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AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

Max has baited the government for years (of course they have harassed him too) - it will be interesting to see if his legal team can keep his ass out of the slammer this time...

ADG

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czarina

I agree with BadDog, that Max pushes the envelope.
But no matter what his videos are about, I think we should all be on Max's side... this is US against THEM!

Pleasurepays

do you even have the slightest understanding of how the US legal system works? were you gone the day they taught life?

you don't need a law degree to understand the fundamentals of case law and precedents.

tony286

I can still fell bad for him, if it wasnt him it would be someone else. We work in the I can do whatever the fuck I want industry. You described it all perfect.

topnotch, standup guy

Yeah, well maybe that's why you should be rooting for Max to win. It's not about liking the guy, it's about what's best for the industry.

And you don't even need high school diploma to understand those fundamentals.

BVF

Of course I understand how it works....I also know how the MARKET system works......And if there is a MARKET for something and a high DEMAND, then no amount of LEGISLATION is going to stop it.....

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Pleasurepays

jesus.

apply your retarded logic to CP, scat or beast sites and let me know how much money you make with your supply and demand argument before you go to prison. i'll be rooting for you.

Pleasurepays

whats best for the industry is not to sit back and let the worst of the worst end up on CNN, speaking for YOU and forcing you to defend them shitting down the mouth of a questionable looking teen in pig tails and braces as she cries and pukes.

mikesouth

Not really as was said in the previous post the general population doesnt distinguish between good pornographers and bad pornographers....to them we are all pornographers and they dont make distinctions betweeen what max does and what I do. Sure theres a difference but the general population doesnt get it.

For years I have said that if we dont police ourselves we will have the government doing it for us.

Now when it comes down to it we have the fate of future federal prosecutions hanging on violence, girls pretending to be under aged, crying while being pissed on and made to vomit. It isnt going to bode well for any of us but this is the path we chose, when we chose not to act.

Do I think Max should go to jail, yes honestly I do, but NOT FOR OBSCENITY, maybe for assault and battery or maybe it should be a civil matter even but we no longer have that choise, Max is now representing us all, whether you like it or not.

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Mike South

It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

broke

What would someone have to do/film/distribute, in your option, before they should be sent to jail for obscenity? My contention is that people who don't find Max's content obscene don't believe obscenity exists (which is fine - I guess).

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Perfect Gonzo

Penny24Seven

OBSCENITYOBSCENITYOBSCENITY, The law is in a grey area. No way in hell anyone would want any case to be lost, It will just start the ball rolling. The ball rolls both ways too. Yeah it seems they started with a good case though. sucks

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kane

This actually happened in a case in Utah a few years back. A small video store owner was dragged into court for having a few porn movies for rent (literally about a dozen or so titles) anyway, his defense attorney during his second trial (the first ended in a hung jury) found out how many pay per view movies were ordered at hotels and how many were available in the area. He also found out how many cable and satellite pay per view movies were ordered in the city, Provo, and how it compared to the national average. It turned out that city bought pay per view porn at a rate three or four times the national average. During his closing he told the jury if your neighbors are ordering pay per view porn at 3-4 times the national average then clearly the community is not offended by it. They found him innocent. He was bankrupt, but innocent.

kane

Should obscenity exist? Should we not be able to watch what we want in our own homes? If someone makes a movie like Max makes and 1000 people buy it, they chose to buy it. If it turns you off, cool, don't watch. The people in the videos are consenting adults, it is consenting adults watching them. I personally don't like that type of porn, I prefer the softcore stuff, but I think we should be free to watch, read and listen to anything we want. If our neighbors don't like it, that is fine, they are free to do as they wish because they aren't involved.

I have never heard of one case where someone was convicted of obscenity and suddenly the community sprouted to life and home values shot up and jobs were created because that person was no longer making porn.

mikesouth

I actually dont think obscenity should exist or in the event that it does you better be able to define it by more than just "I know it when I see it"

As it sits you dont know whats obscene untill after you have been convicted of obscenity. Now I think its pretty obvious Max knew he had criossed the line but still

And answer me this one...this scares me more than anything...If Max walks on this....What will he do next?

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Mike South

It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

CybermedAndy

I despise his videos and overall attitude towards the talent

But I hate the government trying to control what I watch even more, hope he wins

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Pleasurepays

regardless of what anyone wants, adult will eventually be destroyed because people are too ignorant and backwards in this industry to organize and do anything about it.

whether you want or don't want him to win this case,... it won't change the fact that this is an industry with powerful enemies and one that refuses to police itself and seems quite intent on forcing the government to do so... and they will. Eventually, they will climb right up your ass with a warrant... because you did nothing but babble on about "gray areas" and allude to "unfairness" and yammer on about the Constitution as if thats going to matter in the least. if its not Max Hardcore getting busted... it will be another idiot ... John Superhardcore, Willy Darkhardcore or whoever. They are the ones representing YOU and your business to the public and in federal court. They are the ones in the public eye, telling every concerned adult "this is pornography and fuck you if you don't like it"

"obscenity" and "gray areas" have little to do with going so far over the line that everyone, even pornographers agree its wrong. thats not a "gray area". in fact, that argument of it being a "gray area" is one that this industry could solve... just as the film industry did. They took a "gray area" and created a "teen area" a "childrens area", an "adult area" and a "porn area" to preserve their business and pre-empt the need for government to jump in and police their industry for them.

HotMonica

A line could be a good guide, but where would you draw it? There is such a wide range in adult, to BDSM, humiliation, extreme roughness (to name only a few) where some people DO enjoy being on what some perceive to be the negative receiving side, that if it all involves consenting adults (performers and viewers) it is hard to draw.

I think "policing" should be done in protecting performers, that they are not misled or forced into acts they do not want to do and that they are treated fairly and respected.

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Snake Doctor

All of you people who are crying about what Max is doing and how it makes the industry look bad need a reality check.

Do you think if Max wasn't doing his thing that the govt would leave us alone?

Fuck no.

The next thing on the list would be gay porn, or anal sex, or gangbangs and DP.

After those were all gone they would go after cumshots, and then anything hardcore, and if they had their way by the time they were done all of the women in this country would have their faces covered and not be allowed to talk to a man she wasn't related to.

This will never end with them. Be glad that Max is the one sticking his chin out there to take the punch.

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Pleasurepays

i think its far less important "where" than it is to just do it.

the "line" is always going to be (or seem) inappropriate or arbitrary to some. a girl might be 18 and might be horribly immature but she can be in porn whether or not she is ready for it... another can be 18 and have the life experience, maturity and intelligence of someone much old. arguing forever about "where" to draw the line has nothing to do with the fact that without a line, you are fucked. either you draw that line ... or the federal government is not only going to draw that line for you... they are then going to keep moving it for you.

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

The Prosecution rested it's case today...

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topnotch, standup guy

You really don't get it do you?

No matter where the line is drawn the government will simply start there and then work it's way down.

Perhaps you need to spend some quality time giving your dog another massage, and while you're doing so, rethink your position.

Pleasurepays

really? like ...say... when the motion picture industry drew some defensible lines and the government leaves them alone completely?

how fucking retarded are you? do nothing? fight the federal government and a nation full of religious nut jobs? really? a bunch of 1/2 retarded, anti-social idiots who can't stop stealing from each other are going to line up, form an army and fight? is that the plan?

how about this.... think about how to fight battles you can win... rather than just running around , sticking your chin out there while people constantly take swings at you trying to knock you out. you cant do that forever.

tony286

Your right but I think the movie industry was different as far as there weren't that many studios. So to get together wasnt like herding cats also the movie bosses were long term thinkers, our industry only thinks about today for the most part.

topnotch, standup guy

You said it yourself: "a nation full of religious nut jobs".

Those people, and the government they elected, think all porn is obscene.

Now, unless we all "self regulate" ourselves into burger flipping jobs, there ain't nothing we can do except beat them in court.

Be glad Max has deep enough pockets (and big enough balls) to fight the fight

directfiesta

Weird, no ?

They were in possession of the dvd's, they had the client in Tampa, they shipped it interstate to Tampa ... and they are not charged ...


???? Backroom deal


BTW, Jaded has a hell of a lot of Euro stuff that makes Max Hardcore look like Walt Disney

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stev0

Fight the cheesy tag line on the end of each one of your posts!

Robbie

I'm just shocked that in this day and age we STILL try to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do and what WE as adults can and can't watch. And as far as minors seeing it...I would have given my left nut when I was a teenager to have been able to see some porn! Instead of my dad's old playboy magazines and 1960's stag films. I don't think for one second that porn is gonna hurt a 15 year old boy at all...at least not as much as playing a vid game in which he virtually slaughters a few hundred people.
Bottom line is what Larry Flynt just said in the latest AVN Online Mag (I'm paraphrasing here) : Everybody is for "Freedom Of Speech" as long as they agree with it.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Pleasurepays

since you have no idea what the results of self regulation would be ... since it doesn't happen, you're not exactly stating fact. the problem with fighting in court is that you are going to continually let the worst of the worst in the industry pick those fights on your behalf... and IT WILL backfire eventually. this is a business with no shortage of low hanging fruit for prosecutors.

..... and if you think that being in this position like right now, where the over the top, grossly offensive guy who intentionally tries to push further than anyone else and that was on here screaming "FUCK THE FBI" be the one representing your industry in federal court, is a good strategy for long term success.. you're delusional.

The Duck

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C_U_Next_Tuesday

A fucking men! Sickfuck only stands up for himself and his hardcore shit he has been paying girls to do for years. I would hate to believe in Karma if I were him

I hope he gets whats coming to him...

I seriously suprised that no angry fucked in the head models have signed on to do a shoot with him and cut his dick clean off

notoldschool

Update: looks like the judge will decide if the charges should be dropped today. An actress also testified that she enjoyed working for Little.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jun...?news-breaking

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FightThisPatent

Max Hardcore Found Guilty in Obscenity Trial

http://www.avn.com/video/articles/30610.html

TAMPA - Producer Max Hardcore (a.k.a. Paul Little) was found guilty of 10 federal counts of distributing obscene materials over the Internet and through the mail.

Little's company Maxworld Entertainment was also found guilty on 10 related charges.

Earlier today, jurors asked U.S. District Judge Susan Bucklew for guidance as the jury was having trouble reaching a unanimous decision.

According to a report in the St. Petersburg Times, the jury foreman sent a note to Bucklew just after 3 p.m., asking: "If we make a decision on 10 of the 20 counts, but are unable to reach a decision on the other 10, will the 10 counts that we decide on stand?''

Bucklew said the jury's decision would count.

The jurors responded in another note: "There are people on both sides of the issues, and we do not believe we'll be able to reach a unanimous decision. How long must we deliberate?''

The judge urged jurors to try again.

"I'm not going to tell you how much time to deliberate, but I am going to ask you to deliberate again,'' she said.

According to the report, the jury then asked Judge Bucklew for permission to take a break, because "emotions were running very high."

Bucklew granted the break, asking attorneys to stay in the courthouse to give the jurors time to talk again. The jury returned its verdict at approximately 7 p.m.



Fight the roh roh!

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xbiz: Max Hardcore Jury Returns Guilty Verdict

http://www.xbiz.com/news/94879

TAMPA, Fla. ? Jurors in the Max Hardcore obscenity trial have returned a verdict of guilty on 10 federal counts of distributing obscene materials over the Internet and through the mail.

His company, MaxWorld Enterprises, was also found guilty on 10 related counts.

"This is a sad day for America," Hardcore attorney Jeffrey Douglas told XBIZ, who was noticeably upset. "Like I said in my closing remarks, this was a shameful prosecution. I don't have anything else to say."

Earlier today, the jury appeared to be undecided and conferred with the judge on several points before going back into deliberation.

"If we make a decision on 10 of the 20 counts, but are unable to reach a decision on the other 10, will the 10 counts that we decide on stand?'' the jury foreman asked Judge Susan C. Bucklew this afternoon, just after 3 p.m. EST.

The judge answered that the decisions they returned would stand, even if other counts were undecided.

The foremen indicated also that there were jurors ?on both sides? of the issues, and that there was doubt that they could come to a unanimous decision.

He also asked the court how long the jury was expected to deliberate, to which the judge reportedly told the jury she would not tell them how long to deliberate, only that they should deliberate again.

Sources close to the case told XBIZ this morning that a decision might be imminent, but this afternoon, foreman asked the judge for a break, citing that emotions were running high in the deliberations. Lawyers for both sides were asked to stay in the courtroom, in case the jury should return with a verdict.

However, the jury returned just a short time ago with their verdict.

Max Hardcore and other defense attorneys were unavailable for comment at post time.


Fight the roh roh x2!

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fluffygrrl

Your arguments are somewhat self contradictory.

On one hand you seem to build on the notion that some sort of unity of action should stem from some sort of unity of interest.

On the other you blast away at the unity with bits such as these.

So call it one way or the other, are we or aren't we all together, cause otherwise the frothing at the mouth is more akin to madness than anything.

Pleasurepays

standing together on the deck of the titanic and watching the ice bergs float by while shooting heroin and screaming "fuck the world" and organizing to actually plot a course, watch for obstructions and navigate the titanic from port to port are two totally different things.

"being together" doesn't mean being a 1/2 retarded fucking moron ignoring the obvious risk of collision and the fact that there is a 100% probability of it.. and then when it happens just start blathering on and on about how the iceberg shouldn't be there to begin with and start insisting everyone is obligated to grab a bucket and bail water out because "were all in it together", as if no one could possibly see the inevitable collision coming.

fluffygrrl

Okay I'm tired of all the nips. Originally you sounded just a little confused, but you're a man with an aggenda, one that sounds like you work for some sort of jebus group.

First to the fundamentals :

The idea behind a republic is that people can't just get together and pass any law they damn please. I know the contrary sounds like "basic case law" or whatever other basic rudiments you proudly amassed, but nevertheless.

If tomorrow the entire state of Florida votes to kill every black man in this country, the piece of paper they produce, however they call it, won't be a law, nor it's application legal. And if the US Congress passes the same, unanimously or otherwise, the resulting piece of paper STILL wouldn't be a law, nor it's application lawful.

There's more to the making of a law than the agreement of no matter how large a number of perambulatory citizens.

And incidentally, I find your implied proposition that people should, or indeed at all can, tell other people how to spend their spare time most ignorant, obtuse, obscurantist and in general, boo. And fuck you, for you are an idiot.

And to the personals : You personally are no better than Max Hardcore.

You can pretend it all you want, to win cheers and laudae from the granny corner, or to overcompensate for whatever daddy-kisses and shower-watching you were referencing earlier, but the fact remains.

You're not better than Max Hardcore.

And the more fumigating shit you dump to try and hide it from yourself, the more obvious it is, and the more you look like dirty f's avatar.

Now go find jesus and save yourself already. And deliver us from the spectacle.