Pleasurepays

edafgsdl;kmdfa

Pleasurepays

upset at the realization that you are one of the absolute totally fucking retarded idiots that i'm talking about?

god? really?

notoldschool

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Pleasurepays

really? you are comparing current obscenity law, legal precedent and the miller test to some retarded analogy about people creating an obviously unconstitutional law making murder legal?? charging someone with distribution of obscene materials is somehow legally akin to organizing the genocide of black people?

i hope to god that you are hot if your a chick... if not, you better suck cock, swallow and love it in the ass... otherwise, i fear you have little to no chance in this life.

fluffygrrl

A sensible observation and a sound proposition.

The notion what Hollywood did could be done again is delusional. They came to films first, and cut it in 4 chunks. The proposition is now that we should cut the 4th chunk into 4 chunks, so someone else later can cut our chunk into 4 so yet someone else has a 4th to cut into 4 more 4's. Ridiculous.

Between the movie industry, which got the original pick, and the last cutter down the line's slice, we'd find ourselves in this intenable position, where we're nothing and do nothing meaningful, and exist for no apparent reason, and soon enough the situation would collapse on itself, implode and we'd find ourselves exactly where we are now.

In fact, if you were to look just at the present adult industry such as it is, you could never know whether it is the result of the proposed slicing or of it's history as we in fact know it.

Pulling yourself up by your own breeches won't take you too high.

fluffygrrl

Thanks for the concern.

The issue Max Hardcore is spending his own money on, and the issue you're disrespecting him for, is a constitutional issue.

And the above is incidentally the reason Max Hardcore is relevant, and you're a name on my screen.

Pleasurepays

no... in YOUR mind its a constitutional issue. because thats all you're left with as an argument, otherwise you have to accept that there is existing law and legal precedent and this has been through the highest courts in the land... and there are legal tests to determined what is obscene or not and it largely falls on each community to decide what they want in their community.

... and as i've said already, thats they standard bullshit position of all the anti-social idiots in this industry who seem to think they should be able to do anything regardless of the law, regardless of the risks and wants to feign total shock and surprise when someone starts pushing the boundaries in what everyone knows full well is a very gray area and gets popped for it.

so yeah... its a constitutional issue genius. why not just call it an astrological issue? a fung shui issue? or a magical leprechans issue? or any other thing you want, that basically takes any and all responsibility out of your hands for your own behavior and makes you the constant victim in spite of the fact that you know the risks of what you do.

fluffygrrl

There WAS existing law about killing the blacks, and it WAS to the highest court, and your argument was the argument of "reasonable" people at the time. So ?

You're welcome to call me antisocial, and you're welcome to call Max Hardcore "worst of the worst", or whatever else he is in your mind.

But the fact remains that he's one of the best. Not "in my mind", but by actual criteria.

1. He's made more money than most. This IS the number one criteria for this industry, always was, and the only reason we're here, and the only thing we have in common. Every two bit board hustler and every crack whore on a wannabe trip, and the three or 4 other people in adult go back to this as the make all, end all test. Hardcore passes.

2. He's started it before most. This matters, and matters a lot. He's been battling religious nuts, and closeted religious nuts such as yourself at a time you were battling pubescent awkwardness, I reckon. So he passes.

3. Most importantly, he IS currently defending himself, in a legal battle, out of his own money. This means that he's more relevant to the actual issue being discussed than some blabber mouth on some forum somewhere. Just like the guy riding the bronco is more relevant to bronco riding than the scores of pole-propping experts.

And with that, the discussion of this part is decided. In your mind things may be so or so, but that don't make em real, or relevant.

Add to that unfortunate circumstance the fact that you're quite visibly (tho maybe only from outside ?) looping in recognizably brain-damaged patterns of speech and ideation, and your relevance to the discussion is definitively shot.

Feng shui is spelt feng shui, and as to the responsibility, I'ma take mine, for my actions, and MH is obviously taking his, for his actions, and you're a piddly fuck that's trying to tell real people how they should be going about their business.

Talk to the hand.

madfuck

thks for the info

Kudles

Go Max!!!

Beaver Bob

I hope Max can appeal this. Is he putting together a legal fund? I think we should all chip in a few bucks for the cause.

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seeric

i think max is pretty screwed at this point.

fluffygrrl

Hey quentin, there's one speciffic point in there that I'd like to settle. You say

This is not actually true. The greeks, who invented the thing we strive to copy today, and who made it work where ours to date hasn't yet, did have such freedom of speech, and it was limitless. And they considered that limitlessness key to their little engine that worked.

Actually, let me tell you a story.

Diogenes Kyon was sitting in the forum one day and masturbating. Some citizen or other passing by wanted to know if he doesn't it find it silly to be spending his time in the forum jacking off.

"No. And if hunger should also go away through rubbing of the belly, oh what a perfect world we'd inhabit".

Here's the one obscenity test that makes sense : Anything short of jacking off on the senate floor with the senate in session is not obscene. And so jacking off is not obscene either. Just a little silly.

FightThisPatent

u mean like what u jsut did


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FightThisPatent

Great followup by Mark Kernes:
Jury Finds Max Hardcore Guilty On All Counts in Obscenity Trial
http://www.avn.com/law/articles/30615.html

TAMPA - The call to Jennifer Kinsley's cellphone came at 3:45 on Thursday afternoon.

"They want us in the courtroom," she said to her fellow attorneys H. Louis Sirkin, Jeffrey Douglas, Jamie Benjamin and Dan Aaronson.

"Do they have a verdict?" Sirkin asked.

"No, I think it's for a question," Kinsley replied.

However, that turned out to be not quite correct. When the jury reentered the courtroom at 4:15, the "question" they had presented to Judge Susan C. Bucklew was, "Say if we make a decision on 10 of the 20 counts but are unable to reach a decision on the other 10, will the 10 counts we decide on stand?"

At that point, the jury had been deliberating for more than 12 hours, and all of the defense attorneys had suspected that that meant that either the jury had deadlocked, or that Paul Little aka Max Hardcore and his company, Max World Entertainment (MWE), had been acquitted on at least some of the obscenity charges they were facing.

However, Judge Bucklew had already answered "Yes" to that jury question (although she had not bothered to call the attorneys for either side into the courtroom when she had done so - a clear error), and now the jury had another one.

"There are people on both sides of the issue, and we are fairly certain we cannot reach a decision on the other 10," the foreman's note read. "How long must we deliberate?"

Judge Bucklew was prepared for such an eventuality, since it was hardly the first time such a thing had occurred in a federal trial. She delivered what is known as a "modified Allen charge" - basically, a request that the jury return to the jury room and attempt once more to work out its differences, reminding them that many people had invested much time, money and emotion in the trial, and asking those who had taken the minority stand on the issue(s) to reconsider the arguments of the majority ... although they were not supposed to give up strongly-held beliefs in the process.

After the jury was excused, the judge suggested to the attorneys for both sides that they not leave the courtroom, since there was some likelihood that the jury would return soon, either with verdicts on all counts, or to announce that they were hopelessly hung.

Roughly two more hours passed, though, with everyone growing more nervous as the minutes progressed. What was taking them so long?

Finally, at 6:15, the judge announced that the jury had reached verdicts on all counts. However, as they filed into the courtroom, eyes downcast, one woman obviously in tears, the foreman handed the verdict forms to the judge, who looked them over briefly, then handed them to her clerk to be read.

"On Count 1," said court clerk Layda Santiago, "Guilty. Count 2, Guilty. Count 3, Guilty."

And so it went through all 20 counts against both Little and MWE for using a computer system to transport obscene material and for mailing obscene material to the Middle District of Florida: Guilty on all counts.

At that point, about a dozen legal interns who had been observing the proceedings filed out, leaving the few Little supporters awash in sadness and exhaustion - but the pain wasn't over.

The judge informed the jury that since they had found the defendants guilty on some or all of the charges, it was now their duty to decide how much of Little's property - his home and his domain names - which he had supposedly used in the commission of his crimes, should be forfeited to the government.

Prosecutor Lisamarie Freitas spoke briefly about how Little had shot much of the five adjudged-obscene titles in his home, and how his Websites had been used to disseminate the promotional trailers that had also been found to be unprotected speech. But what apparently moved the jury even more was Jamie Benjamin's impassioned plea, "Please don't take Mr. Little's home. We're not talking about any residence here; we're talking about his house. It's all he has left now."

As the defense later learned, as the jury walked into the jury room to consider the forfeiture, one of them declared to the rest, "Okay; we gave you the guilty verdicts, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let you take his house!"

It still took them more than half an hour to reach their decision.

While the jury was deliberating the forfeiture, Judge Bucklew finally ruled on the remaining "Rule 29" motion to dismiss, which had asked the court to declare that the jury had been given insufficient evidence to find the defendants guilty of having mailed the five DVDs - "Euro" versions of Max Extreme 20, Golden Guzzlers 7, Planet Max 16, Fists of Fury 4 and Pure Max 19 - to the Tampa area. James Komurek, president and owner of JKG, Inc. and Jaded Video, an online retailer, had testified under grant of immunity that his company had done the mailing, and that neither Little nor MWE had had anything to do with choosing either the destination or the method of delivery. Judge Bucklew, however, had found that the mere fact that MWE sold the charged videos to Jaded, which then resold them to postal inspector Linda Walker, was enough to make out a case for "aiding and abetting" the sale, despite a recent 5th Circuit decision in U.S. v. McDowell that had found that a defendant in a similar situation was not guilty of the same crime.

But that was a 5th Circuit decision, Judge Bucklew said, and under case law in the 11th Circuit, where the trial was taking place, the defendants were guilty because they could have "reasonably foreseen" that Jaded would use the U.S. mails to send the DVDs to Tampa. Motion denied.

Almost as soon as the judge had completed her ruling, the jury signaled that it was ready to give its verdict on the forfeiture, and when the clerk read from the verdict form that Little's house would not be forfeited, although the domain names would, Little breathed a visible sigh of relief.

"That was what was most important to me, that I get to keep my house," he said later. "I can replace the domain names, maybe make it maxhardcorexxx.com, but as long as I still have my house, I figure I'm ahead of the game."

Although the attorneys had been warned not to approach the jurors after court had been dismissed to ask questions, one of the jurors - the woman who had been crying - approached this reporter to ask if she could speak to Paul Little to express her condolences on the verdict and to give him a hug. Little and his attorneys were engaging in a post-trial analysis at a nearby hotel, and the female juror, a male juror and the jury foreman all went to that location and engaged in a conversation with the defense team.

"I'm just so sorry this happened to you," the woman said, and did in fact hug Little, whose courtroom demeanor had been above reproach. "We tried and we tried and we tried, but we just couldn't get through to those others. They just beat on us and beat on us and beat on us until we gave in."

The jurors indicated that while the five movies, which contained scenes of urination, fisting and vomiting, were not to their taste, they didn't see anything wrong with others watching them if they wanted to, with the foreman commenting, "After all, that's why we have the First Amendment."

"I'm sorry those jurors didn't have the guts to stick to their beliefs," Sirkin said later. "It's a sad day in this country when even if you believe a person didn't commit a crime, that you can be badgered into changing your vote just because some other juror tries to bully you. That's not the way Americans are supposed to react."

One of the jurors said that as soon as the jury had entered the deliberation room, nine of them had been ready to find guilt on all charges before any discussion had even taken place.

"It was a travesty but we had no choice because of the way the law is written," the foreman declared. "If just two words in the law had been different, I think we could have held out longer for acquittal, and maybe even convinced the rest of them."

The two words: "Reasonably foreseeable," in the statute making it a crime to mail obscene matter, or aiding and abetting such mailing by another person. (See judge's comment above.)

"I should have got off for this nonsense," Little later said. "Obscenity is an archaic term; it's not defined well. I received no warning and they attempted to put me behind bars; they've got a conviction, but we intend to fight on. We're definitely going to appeal."

Dan Aaronson echoed that sentiment.

"That's why I like criminal cases," he said. "There, you're dealing with acts. The prosecution says the defendant did A, B and C, and you get to argue that he did or he didn't. But with obscenity cases, you have to argue the law rather than the acts, and sometimes, I don't think the jury can really understand that law, it's so vague."

"As I said in closing argument, I believe that this prosecution was shameful," Douglas told AVN. "And as Max Hardcore said, this is a sad day for America. It's a deeply sad day for him personally, but also for all of us."

All of the attorneys agreed, however, that the defense team had performed like a well-oiled machine; that they had worked out their strategies and delegated each point to the attorney who could best argue it; and that even their disagreements were settled amicably. Even the three jurors stated that they were more impressed by the defense's courtroom presentation than by the prosecution's.



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FightThisPatent

But it wasn't enough.

"I'll be replaying this trial in my head for weeks to come," Benjamin said. "I'll wake up in the middle of the night and think to myself, 'Maybe I should have asked this question instead of that one,' or "Maybe I didn't make this or that point forcefully enough.'"

There was unanimous agreement among the attorneys that the case had presented several grounds upon which to appeal the verdicts, and Douglas said that he expected to have the notice of appeal ready to file just after Little is sentenced on September 5. Little faces a maximum of 50 years in prison and more than $5 million in fines.


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Penny Flame

(I would love to masturbate on the senate floor with all the senators watching....it would be the highlight of my life)

Even though I don't really care for what Max produces, and I myself have never and probably will never work for him, I would still chip in on a fund.

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payd2purv

I'd love to be on set for one of his scenes.

Just to see what the fuck goes on before and after.

He's had some big names choking on his piss and blowing it out their noses...

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Quentin

Ah, it could be that particular claim in my article was off-base. If so, though, it is a claim that has been repeated many times in similar ways by speech law scholars who are far more expert than I am. I was relying on their expertise, as I cannot claim to have examined the speech laws of every culture in history.

What was the crime for which Socrates was forced to choose between banishment and death? Wasn't it for corrupting his students through his teachings, all of which were communicated via speech? Sounds like a restriction on free speech to me, but maybe I'm wrong about the nature of Socrates' crime, as well.

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Q. Boyer

Nikki_Licks

This whole trial sounds like a dog and pony show.
I find it obscene that the jurors badgered the others until they got the verdict they wanted. Maybe they should be put in the hot seat for this

I hope the appeal process will work in his favor and once again piss can be thrown in the face of the corrupt scum that was so willing and forceful to hang him out to dry.

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Azoy?

he's a nutcase pushing the boundaries. i am sure there are other nut cases like him that like this stuff which is who he sells this stuff to.
i would never promote his stuff.

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FightThisPatent

it is the freedom of choice that makes this country so great.

if you want that extreme stuff you can find it and watch it in the privacy of your own home.. oh wait, that bubble has been busted.

it really is ridiculous that if an individual, of adult age, purchases a video for the viewing in their own home, that the producer of the content is found to be guilty of the distribution for obscenity.

The jurors were the ONLY ones that didn't have the right not to see max's stuff. you don't see his hardcore videos out in front of people's face in blatant disregard.

the extremeness of his content is not the issue. the issue is how can state or federal prosecutors dictate what someone can view in their homes?

if people in tampa or anywhere purchase and watch his videos.. those people are part of the community.

there are pure-religious folks and downright dirty folks in every community. so no one definition can apply,

a persons moral and ethical divide is there own, when it comes to the privacy of their own home (as evident by the strike down of texas sodomy law and other similar cases).

don't forget, the internet charges were included.. so this is not just about shipping DVD's into "hostile zip codes".

those that wish to point to max's content as being the "bad" content over the content that they show, should remember, in the minds of the religious right and far right, ALL porn is bad.. there is no shades of gray. Porn is offensive and obscene to some, including playboy type photos...so be careful in throwing max under the bus, because other buses are coming up right behind.


Fight the bus stop!

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AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Give that fucker the electric chair. Fuck Max Hardcore.
Sick fuck.

SOrry video's of the portrayal of an Underaged minor screaming for daddy while getting sodomised and crying throughout is fucking wrong.
Period.

I do not care if the model is actually of legal age, I do not care if this kind of shit is distributed. People that thrive on that kind of porn need therapy. Max Hardcore needs therapy. The subject matter is appalling by all civilised standards and you may come accross a little something risky in a main stream film sure that can be argued but the purpose of the mainstream film is not to make the focal point of a crime the entire duration of the film or as they say.. The creative whole of the work.

The selling of simulated sex crime is certainly Obscene I have no doubts about it.
thats why Max Hardcore is not only going to prison but he is going to the loony bin afterwards.

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DWB

And people wonder why I moved out of the USA and have no assets on American soil.

The fact that some of the jury was bullied into a guilty verdict turns my stomach and is a true testament of how the legal system is a joke.

DWB

Sorry to burst your American bubble, but there are a shit load of other countries that also allow "freedom of choice" and actually allow their citizens to choose what happens or watched in the privacy of their own bedroom.

bloggingseo

Wow, I don't really know a lot about Max Hardcore but I still believe firmly in that people have the right to do whatever the hell they want in the privacy of their own home as long as everyone is consenting adults. If we let the govt. dictate what we do in our own homes then it won't be long before they start filming or spying on people in their own homes I mean seriously. Who wants the govt running their sex lives? Not me

fluffygrrl

See, that's why I rose the objection, not as much because you personally were off base, but because it's this oft repeated actually false statement that many people don't verify because it's oft repeated, in a vicious circle.

As to Socrates, the issue there I tend to think is not as much speech as politics. Athens had just been handed its ass by Sparta, and times were very tough. Socrates appeared as a threat to democracy at a time democracy was hanging by a thread. So they let him have it.

But imo it was a political killing, not a matter of speech any more than Trotsky's headbashing was.

Pleasurepays

if you really believe that, then you need to travel more. americans seem to have this naive idea that the USA is the home of "freedom" and all things right in the world. america is no more free or free to make choices than any other developed nation.. america has simply cornered the market on freedom related rhetoric.

fluffygrrl

The only conclusion of that is you need therapy. Then again, we've known that for a while.

Quentin

Fair enough -- but check out “Law, Attic Comedy, and the Regulation of Comic Speech,” by Robert W. Wallace (professor of classics at Northwestern University). Wallace might just persuade you that there were indeed Athenian laws regulating and restricting speech in certain contexts, like speech that could serve to endanger the city, or its leaders.

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Q. Boyer

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

At least I knew I needed help and got it.

What about you?

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fluffygrrl

Ah, a scholar after my own heart. If I may quote from The Legal Regulation of Private Conduct at Athens: Two Controversies on Freedom (same chap) :

Quentin

Right -- material harm, which is basically the same rationale behind modern restrictions pertaining to libel, defamation, slander, inciting violence or issuing verbal/written threats.

I guess where we disagree is the point of whether such restrictions constitute a form of legal limitation on free speech...? Or do we in fact disagree? I'm confused now. LOL

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Q. Boyer

FightThisPatent

i have traveled outside the US, and I do know that people want to come to the US... because we have opportunities here, the ability to choose what you want to do.

I hear people bitching about americans lazy this, america government that, but they are still here because they do have opportunities, and more freedoms to choose to do things.

You have a greater chance of opening up a pizza shop as in immigrant and make a good living than in a person's home country.

Why else are green card lotteries in demand? Why do people want to immigrate here? because we do have freedoms,choices , and opportunities that aren't as prevalent in their homeland..

BUT, we do have issues.. we do have some laws that are slanted.. we don't have a perfect system and we are not a perfect society....you can't pick and choose the good from the bad.


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fluffygrrl

I think we're dissagreeing on what material is.

Material the last time I've considered the matter has to be - you know - material. Somebody being offended is not material. Everybody being offended is not material.

Treason, inasmuch as it MATERIALLY benefits the enemy, is not protected speech.

That kind of material.

Pleasurepays

you are comparing the third world to the first world. just because pakistanis or ethiopians want to move here "for a better life and opportunity" doesn't mean the US is somehow a leader in freedom and opportunity. in fact, the USA ranks very poorly by almost any standard from quality of living, to education to infant mortality or any other measurement used to rate countries.

not only that, you position assumes that people aren't also trying to immigrate to all first
world countries for the same reasons. so anyone could be asking the same rhetorical questions as to why people risk their lives to immigrate to european countries or australia or new zealand or anywhere else.

directfiesta

You are a nuisance here, you bring nothing ... because you are nobody ... you are less then a stain in a boxer short ... you can't even keep your domain without having to cry ...

Being an idiot is one thing, but not realising that you are one is the summum of idiocy ... You have even surpassed that summmit ....You can't even write inyour own language properly ...

I wish that tonight a massive heart attack liberated the universe of your useless and annoying presence.

Meanwhile, try to choke on your saliva.

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But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

Snake Doctor

fluffygrrl is making me hawt.

Very good points, all of them. I'll just sit back and watch.

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sig too big

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

And many say the same about you.
Go back under your rock.

Moving host's was the best thing i ever did. I got a dedicated server with full pipe and traffic is moving great for me. Fact is, I do not need the blessing of any of you to operate and thats whats best about this business.

So stick that in your fucken lose asshole and suck it.

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topnotch, standup guy

After eight years of Bush a lot fewer of us think that than before.

topnotch, standup guy

Really?

Could have fooled me.

topnotch, standup guy

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Tell me, do you drive around town with like one of them little jebus fish on the back of your car?

As for your so called existing law, it won't be existing anymore after a higher court tosses it into the gutter. Where it belongs.

baddog

I have a personal policy of, if I am guilty I will take a jury trial. If I am innocent, I will let the judge rule.

baddog

Sorry to burst your anti-American bubble, but he wasn't convicted for something he did in the privacy of his bedroom.

DWB

Very well said.


Spot on again.

Africans are POURING into parts of Europe. Why? Because of location. The same reason Mexicans and Cubans come to the USA instead of Spain.

Americans always want to comment about how people want to come here, risking their lives to do so. Bah. It's just because where we are located and the fact we will work them illegally. If the USA and Canada changed places, they would be running into Canada and not the USA.

You never see 1st world country citizens lined up to sneak into the USA. They come here for holiday and return to their home where they live normal lives, just the same as you and me.

Say it ain't so! Did you figure that out all on your own, or did you need some help?

That was my reply to FTP's post about how the USA is great because it has freedom of choice.

Why would you be in court in the first place? That is the whole point. You shouldn't be, neither should Max.

How about... don't ever be in that position to begin with.

pocketkangaroo

It depends on the judge.

Bucklew is an extreme conservative and anti-porn. She is the same judge that shut down VoyuerDorm by misapplying the zoning laws to it (her ruling was overturned on appeal). Max's best show was with a jury, this is a conservative judge who would have found him guilty in minutes.

fluffygrrl

Holy words.

Holy words part deux. I have the exact same policy, have been, for years.

This thread delivers after all, hardcore.

America has cornered the american market on freedom related rhetoric, I'd say

I think what baddog said would stand to mean he'd pick a jury if he was in MH's shoes.

just a punk

I concur. It seems to me that the USA is not a safe place for adult business anymore

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Obey the Cowgod

just a punk

According to my personal experience of living in the USSR I know if the government screams about freedom every time and everywhere, so there is a serious reason for that. And this reason is always the same: this country is NOT FREE.

The USSR leaders always told the Soviet people that they are living in a most free country in the world, and what the communist party is bringing a freedom to other countries to make them free as well. Right now I see something similar coming out from the USA.

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Pleasurepays

"so called law"??

huh?

i honestly don't get it. do some of you idiots spend 1/2 the day sniffing glue before posting here?

someone just got convicted of 10 counts on those "so called laws". seems pretty real to me and certainly seems like something to think about.


higher courts tossing them into the gutter?

honestly, i have to say that some of you dipshits need a little leeway, coming from a country with some of the worst public eduction in the world... i don't blame you for growing up in a nation full of 1/2 retarded pussies who somehow have decided that you have zero personal accountability in anything. its not your fault... its your parents fault. instead of letting you tell them to shut the hell up, they should have been knocking you on your ass and beating the shit out of you with a belt. so you would have 1/2 a chance in life and have some sense of maturity. ... so, i'll be patient with you and take this moment to clue you in on the fact that these "so called laws" have already been to the highest courts in the country.