Originally Posted by ThumbLord

12shits

Originally Posted by Robbie

Hey cybermike...there are some fees that they are not splitting with you. When a chargeback occurs you lose the money you made off the sale. So if it was a $34 revshare sale, and a chargeback happens...then you get $17 deducted from your affiliate pay. But that's NOT sharing the fees like you might think.

On the paysite end...the paysite gets charged $55 on TOP of their half that they lose when the chargeback occurs AND don't forget the $6 to $7 in processing fees in the beginning. So when a chargeback happens you don't split anything. It's all the paysite owners' risk and loss. And that doesn't even get into the hosting and paying to either produce (as I do) or buy (as many others do) content. Plus man hours building the site and updating the site.

I've been an affiliate for over 10 years (I was ampland.com until Nov. of 2006 and I'm still grampland.com and shavedgoat.com) and I have never expected to make anything other than my share of the website that I sold a membership to. I'm not saying that my opinion of it should over-ride yours. I'm just saying that I have always worked as an affiliate to make revshare (and I have NEVER asked for more than 50% like Freeones did). I feel that 50% of a sale is MORE than generous and is far more than the 3 to 5% that mainstream pays.

As a paysite owner...I can tell you right now that I put 100 times more hours and effort into the paysite than I ever did or do as a TGP owner. I still run 4 TGP's by hand...and over the years I've gotten good enough at it that I can maximize my time down to about 3 hours of work a day to do all 4 of them. The paysite, on the other hand is an 8 to 10 hour a day job everyday. If I'm not shooting, or talent scouting, or editing, or printing and filing paperwork (model releases, id, in triplicate, and then shipping one copy out to another location), or updating, or working on photos, then I'm probably doing support.

It's a LOT of work. And I think I earn every penny I make at it. Especially compared to the amount of work I do as an affiliate which isn't even close. And "no" I don't run bullshit tgps'. My shit is a labor of love with a lot of stuff that I built and maintain: Check out http://www.grampland.com/mmpage.html and you will see what I mean.

My opinion is...as an affiliate I expect to do revshare. I don't expect 70, 80, and 90%. I am grateful for 50% revshare of the site I SOLD. Nothing more, nothing less.

As a paysite owner I expect to pay out to my affiliates 50% of the sale to my paysite. They get $17.49 After I pay the processing fee, I get $11.38 After all my work, risk, and expense. Anything after that that I do to monetize my site is my business.

I'm the one who has to eat any chargeback. I'm the one who eats the processing fee. I'm the one at risk of the govt. kicking in my door to "inspect" my 2257 files. I'm the one who bought 30 grand worth of gear and software to film, light, edit, and produce the site. And I'm the one who hosts the whole thing.

If I can make more than $11.38 it makes me a happy person.

And think about this...IF that sale chargesback...Then I lose my $11.38. Plus I lost the processing fee (they don't give that back). So I'm out of my half. THEN I lose $55 more dollars on top of that!

And here's another fee that you may not have thought about and that you do not share in: Declines. If you send a surfer and they try to sign up, but their card isn't accepted for any reason...I get charged for a "decline". Don't know if you're aware of that or not.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue. I'm just trying to show you what it's like on the paysite side. I know as an affiliate for all these years, I always thought the paysite owners were greedy scumbags. But I didn't understand what it's like on this side until I did it myself.

Now I can see both sides pretty clearly.

Originally Posted by ThumbLord

well 12shits was famous for things like twisting the famous words of Patrick Süskind, (Das Parfum, 1985) I did met Mr. Süskind in France a couple of years ago, since we have a small cottage in France and I am sure 12shits would not be a person he liked.
And he is/was famous of beating down any non program owner, even if you owned loads of TGP's and/or whatever he was willing to bash you, np.
Now this post made me wonder, it sounded like a real business thread, so either it was written by a ghost writer or ........... 12shits is getting mellow, hope not.
I am expected to be bashed by him, to be honest, after this stupid thread

Originally Posted by 12clicks

yes it does. How many more swings and misses would you like to take in my thread?


if you'd like to talk about unchecked cross sales, you should probably find a thread talking about them. this thread is about pre-checked cross sales (that you have zero experience with)
lets not pretend you can speak from any type of experience in this thread.


here's my last paragraph:
furthermore, cross sales help the revshare program survive in this down market. most revshare programs are small. small=less likely to survive. Now people can rail against cross sales all day long but I say more money goes into the affiliates' pocket when the program stays viable and does not go out of business. what is your cut of $0.00 in a 50/50 revshare?
which part did I pull out of my ass again? and which part do you need to run a revshare program to understand again?
I remember when you broke into this business and I'm happy to see you still here.


you never asked that question of Loryn. you simply used the post to attempt to trash my business model (with misleading examples of things I don't do.
so as you say (lets try to stick to that example)


The only bullshit is you coming into this thread and pretending your unbiased. you're business model is being eaten alive by PPS with the help of cross sales so you're in here trying to protect the ever shrinking turf of 50/50 revshare.





all because you say so. why not also throw in there that members area upsells have no place on a revshare program and that any member's mailings you earm money off of must be shard with affiliates, and if you get a bandwidth break from your host you should split that with your affiliates.

you see, BV, you can SAY anything but its nothing more than your opinion.
Personally, I think the fair solution should be to give the affiliates a larger % of the revshare.
But thats merely my opinion as well

Originally Posted by BV

On my screen the thread title says: "12clicks' Position On Cross Sales"

Besides, checked or unchecked, what difference does it make to a revshare affiliate if they are not getting any credit anyways?

and if cross sells won't affect retention, show us, convince us, it would be to your benefit right?

http://www.bikinivoyeur.com/ccbill-cap.jpg

Originally Posted by Robbie

As an affiliate, I've always had a nagging suspicion that if a program gives you 70 and 80% "revshare" then you could be getting the hell shaved out of you. I have absolutely no proof of that. But how in the hell can they make any money like that? They barely make money at 50%. I'd rather have 50%, make good sales and rebills and not give them any reason to screw me.

Originally Posted by Bake

First off thanks 12Clicks for an interesting thread
12Clicks how many of the haters who have posted in this thread bothered to ask you for a look at the members areas of your sites?
As you are buying Pre checked cross sales retention is where your profit lies so its in your own interest to keep them rebilling.
I have taken the time to look at these sites and while there not the best members area I have ever seen there from being bad or lacking in real content.
People get the facts and become informed or just keep playing keyboard hero and make less and less.

Originally Posted by BV

good point

most revshare programs that pay over 60% usually split the 14 plus or minus card fees.
plus are notorious for upsells in and out and via email.

if it was 80% of the membership then the webmaster is barely making anything of that sale but will make it after he upsells that customer

do the math

-80% aff
-14% ccbill
= 6% left for sponsor

then has to pay for content and server and a whole bunch of other shit out of that 6%

6% of 29.95

yah that's a good business plan

should really push that one hard lol

Originally Posted by BV

6% of 29.95, yah that's a good business plan

Originally Posted by Brujah

Couldn't slim margins work just fine with heavy volume? A lot of businesses operate on slim margins based on high volume. I'm sure that's a factor in high PPS payouts too. I don't know any 70% or higher revshare programs myself. Do those exist?

Originally Posted by TheDoc

You forgot, exits, upsells, typeins, inhouse traffic, inhouse xsales, and everything related to webmasters, 404's, 301's, pw traffic, cancel emails out the ass, and an mixture of payout amounts.

Volume is god.... content is king, volume is god.

Major oil companies are earning a relatively modest 8.7 percent profit margin, the top 10 major public oil companies have sold some $1.5 trillion worth of crude, pocketing profits of more than $125 billion.

Originally Posted by BV

so bake

answer honestly

i don't know if you push any revshare sites or not
but if you did
and you had the option to have or not to have upsells on the join form
which would you choose, to have cross sales? or not?

TAKE IN MIND YOU GET NO CREDIT FOR THE CROSS SALE

You will be doing just as a favor and to make sure I make more money and stay alive.

Originally Posted by Bake

I'm sure any real affiliates who can send real sales (EG 10 per day) can discuss the issue of cross sales with the sponsor and either ask for higher % or a join form without the cross sales attached.
There are not the big affiliates left that there once was and as we all know the pie is shrinking , Affiliates who only do a few scattered sales here and there really don't have enough say to make any difference to cross sales.
I can not find any real evidence that pre checked cross sales make any measurable difference to rebills on the main site and if you can provide me with some I will view with interest.
The affiliate always has his say if he just choses not to promote any sponsor because he believes cross sales are hurting him.
I like to see people judge this on real facts and not half assed assumptions.

Originally Posted by BV

OK, my last post here for tonight, i just want to make sure i recap and have 12clicks advice right for the gfy readers who need cliff notes.

I put some of 12clicks pre-checked cross sales on my join forms, and not give credit to my affiliates. This will help me make more money.

But since it's obviously not fair to my affiliates 12clicks advice is to raise the affiliate payout.

Ok so now there goes your extra money from the cross sells.

Who's making out in this deal?

12clicks :-)

Originally Posted by Bake

If FTV was to add prechecked cross sales to there signup page I wouldnt mind at all.
These days I dont do 10 sales per day with them like I have done in the past but I still make good money with them I also didnt mind when they added dvd sales and upsells to there other sites from there members area.
I dont mind people making money infact I believe its a good thing.
And no I dont think anyone who only does 9 sales a day is fake and you trying to twist this post to meet your ends.
I used the number 10 just as a number nothing more , Valued affiliates can always bargin more regardless of what numbers they do.

Can you show me any measurable difference to rebills by having prechecked cross sales?

Originally Posted by BV

On my screen the thread title says: "12clicks' Position On Cross Sales"

Besides, checked or unchecked, what difference does it make to a revshare affiliate if they are not getting any credit anyways?

and if cross sells won't affect retention, show us, convince us, it would be to your benefit right?

http://www.bikinivoyeur.com/ccbill-cap.jpg

Originally Posted by 12clicks

hmmmm, now that its morning and most of the trolls are back to work and school, I'll recap for the business people what BV's position is.

program owners should never do anything without giving it all to the affiliates. THAT way, there's no threat to the ever shrinking market of 50/50 revshare.

Don't be tricked by 12clicks original post. Even though it was factual, BV's business model is different so 12clicks business model is BAD!
Everyone get that?

oh, and whatever you revshare guys do, DO NOT offer your members 60% with a cross sale option! that too is BAD! (because again, its not what BV wants)

and you know, if its not what BV wants, well then it couldn't be good for anyone!

Originally Posted by BV

Good Morning,

I'm not in business to make it good for anyone. Just me, my customers and my affiliates. Not 12 clicks.
Your plan leaves the affiliates out of the loop.

Your plan puts not one extra cent in the affiliates pocket.

and if i was to raise my payouts to make it fair (as you suggest) then the only person making out is you.

sorry, i'm not falling for it

Originally Posted by BV

if your plan is so great and doesn't affect retention then why don't you show us and prove it.

fact is you haven't been doing it long enough to have any real stats worth showing.

Originally Posted by BV

why don't you have some of the ccbill programs doing your cross sales come in here and speak in your behalf?

are they afraid to show their face?

Originally Posted by TheDoc

BV, I'm to lazy to quote

I agree, I guess I just choose not to promote them. I do check every program (not every site) but I do re-check overtime and look at different sites.

In my opinion, it sucks to get tricked by a program, pushing say a low paying pps or any revshare or any program that didn't have them and now does - without notice. It sucks to pull links and redirect traffic across lots of domains. Even more so when they could change back.

A program like 12clicks, as long as you look you know what you are getting so the choice is yours if you want to push him or not. He isn't tricking you, hiding anything, or going to add anything that will shock you.

So many revshare programs used to be clean, and now have xsales without notice - at least with 12clicks he isn't lying to you.

Originally Posted by 12clicks

just because the business model is over your head doesn't make it a bad thing.
its just not for you. I understand your unhappiness with me giving your competition a leg up but you'd be surprised at how many people understand the business model.


hahahaha.

thats a good argument for the rabble but ANYONE can show a long term customer. I've got customers rebilling since just about the day we opened the doors.
And please, I work with some of the biggest names in this industry because I know EXACTLY what I'm doing.
nice try though.



I don't allow anyone to speak on my behalf.
you're easily handled all by myself.
What would the point be of them coming in here so you could treat them like you did Bake?
please......you know nothing about pre-checks. as long as you think your guess work holds the same weight as other's experiences, you're not likely to stir anyone's interest but mine.

Originally Posted by BV

Doc,

This isn't about me or anyone pushing his site in a normal way.
12clicks wants to put his cross sales on my sites ccbill join forms and other CCBill sites like mine.
The affiliates would not get any credit. only me (sponsor) would make the extra money.
I do not think this is right for obvious reasons.

12clicks suggests that I raise the revshare payout percentage to compensate them.

So what benefit is that to me? none, so i make a few extra bucks from 12clicks cross sales that gets redistributed back to affiliates if i raise the payout.

But now the surfer not only has a membership to my site, he has a membership to 12clicks site or sites (i think he puts 2 cross sales) but i could be wrong on that.

So logic tells me a surfer with 3 memberships is less likely to stay with all 3 than if he had just one.

Originally Posted by 12clicks

its amazing how little this guy understands anything beyond his little 50/50 world.

and twice as funny watching him consistently slip in lies to bolster his argument.

Originally Posted by 12clicks

having never run or been associated with a program of any kind, I understand your confusion.
you come from the point of view that a revshare program should share EVERYTHING with the affiliate.
Its a misguided point of view that has fooled many.
does the affiliate share in the cost of producing the website? No
does the affiliate share in the cost of the processing fees? No
does the affiliate share in the cost of the hosting fees? No
does the affiliate share in the cost of the employees needed to run the program? NO
so you see, its NOT a true 50/50 revshare, its just called that.
the program owner is absolutely entitled to make money thats not shared beyond the price of membership and rebills.

Originally Posted by BV

I understand this business model perfectly and your board tactics are not going to work on me. I'm not some punk kid. I'm probably older than you, not a fake nic, and have been here doing the revshare thing for a long long time.

Originally Posted by BV

Granted you have made way more money than me, but the first site I started with is still going after 10 years. That means something.

Originally Posted by BV

Why don't you tell us who these big well respected names are who you are working with already?

Why hide them? What's to hide? Do they not want to be in the limelight because they know what they are doing is wrong?

Originally Posted by BV

If it's so great it would be in your best interest to bragg on these "Big Name Programs" right? What's the big deal if it's so great?

I think the real reason is they want to fly below the radar as not to bring attention to themselves from their affiliates or prospective affiliates.

Originally Posted by BV

what lies am i slipping in, please explain???

Originally Posted by BV

what's wrong with my 50/50 world? Is my 50/50 world a bad thing?
If it's so bad why are you trying to get on all the revshare join forms then?

Originally Posted by tony404

12 you are desperately in need of a Dale Carnegie course. You made a pretty good statement and its gone down from there. Ive also read this same thing on 2 other boards and you got into fights. I'm not a genius but if this keeps happening its time to look at ones approach. Also if the little people don't matter why do you keep going back and forth with them?

Originally Posted by 12clicks

did you just call BV little?

I can't help it if posters drag a good thread into the gutter with their half truths and guesses.
BV doesn't like Xsells. we've heard that ad nauseum. However, he keeps tossing out false statements about how I operate. I don't tolerate that.

Originally Posted by BV

Doc,

This isn't about me or anyone pushing his site in a normal way.
12clicks wants to put his cross sales on my sites ccbill join forms and other CCBill sites like mine.
The affiliates would not get any credit. only me (sponsor) would make the extra money.
I do not think this is right for obvious reasons.

12clicks suggests that I raise the revshare payout percentage to compensate them.

So what benefit is that to me? none, so i make a few extra bucks from 12clicks cross sales that gets redistributed back to affiliates if i raise the payout.

But now the surfer not only has a membership to my site, he has a membership to 12clicks site or sites (i think he puts 2 cross sales) but i could be wrong on that.

So logic tells me a surfer with 3 memberships is less likely to stay with all 3 than if he had just one.

Originally Posted by 12clicks

However, he keeps tossing out false statements about how I operate. I don't tolerate that.

Originally Posted by tony404

No that seems to be your tone. That they are all beneath you. Actually I have alot of respect for what bv has done and does. Ive watched this now on three boards. Its like watching a train wreck over and over. Also tennis only works if you hit the ball back. And if your clients that matter to you know your level of integrity then no one can drag anything down to the gutter unless you are willing to feed the fire going back and forth.

Originally Posted by 12clicks

the latest that you "might be wrong about" I don't put 2 cross sales on anyone's join form. again, you're clueless and the fact that you have to go here shows your desperation.
no different than me saying,"I might be wrong but I think BV shaves."
I don't understand why you keep going there if you're so right about all this.
well, actually, I do.


wrong again there, sailor.
I want to be on EVERYONE'S join forms.

Originally Posted by BV

I did not want to take the time to search for it


Maybe I should just shut the fuck up

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Tony, let me let you in on a little secret.
business people aren't interested in reading 4 pages of back and forth arguing.
They'll read my post, maybe even the entire first page. once you get a handful of trolls in the thread like the smoothjs, notoldschools, etc. readership among the biz owners drops off to nothing.
I'm now in the "reply to keep the page up top" mode.
I mean, not that I'd ever imply that you didn't already know this.

Originally Posted by BV

I read your first post and immediately knew what your motive was.

how come none of your cross sell clients aren't posting if it's so great????

they afraid to let everyone see who they are?

Originally Posted by 12clicks

no, they don't want to wallow in your mud.

are we up to 20 of your posts in a thread about pre-checks? something you have no experience with?

who wants to come in here for that?

Originally Posted by BV

I told you I have experience with cross sales and the fact that they are pre checked or not has nothing to do with the effect they have on revshare affiliates.

Originally Posted by BV

What initially triggered me to post here is because it sounded like Loryn was duped by your bullshit. and I like her and what she does for stray animals. Someone has to wear the white hat.

I wonder where she went?

She's probably mad you duped her and embarrassed to show her face to me again after I have been so generous to her over the years donating money to her for her work she does helping stray cats.