BFT3K

Exactly!

BFT3K

Another good point!

chodadog

Are you trying to suggest the US falls under B?

Yeah. No poverty in the US. No government corruption. And I've never seen a government so lean and efficient.

__________________
26 + 6 = 1

TheDoc

Health care isn't ever really free..

Our insurance costs range as much as our food costs. And no insurance, no drugs, equals death... Kinda like food. Difference is, if you are hungry you can hit a shelter, a family members house, ect.. But month after month people having to come up with $300-$1000 for just medicine, when they have insurance, is really f'ed up.

__________________

Why

quoted for truth.

if you dont think that healthcare is a public concern.... in addition to getting your head checked, you should do a little thinking, does the term "black plague" do anything for you? SARS, madcow, foot in mouth, the list goes on... now if each country and individual was left to fight these things alone... we wouldn't fair to well. need we forget HIV/AIDS on this list?

here is a little information for you, America ranks 43rd, which is lower then the EU average for infant mortality rates. in fact we rank lower than Cuba and a number of ex-soviet states you so happily ripped on above(Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia and more). these statistics are from the CIA, the UN ranks us just about the same too, so two different bodies agree. now i don't know the exact number but id bet that at least 80% of those ranking above us... have public health care. do you want your baby to die at birth due to inadequate health care? i don't, and i don't want anyone else born inside my countries borders to either! if you do, i think you are a very callus person, to put it lightly.

next up... life expectancy. the united states, well they don't rank very highly on that scale either. see, i dunno about you guys, but i want to live to a ripe old age, and id like to know my children, friends, family and wife will live to be gray haired and happy as well.

so go spend a few minutes learning about the subject instead of trying to be so cold hearted and selfish. cause id hate to see you have to eat your words when your health care provider wont cover something you direly need, or worse yet... your mother, daughter or brother. dont worry, some of us would still help you!

insurance is one of the biggest industries in America. would you let go of your golden egg or spread public distrust and false facts about an alternate and apparently quite a bit more effective system, that would send you to the poor house? don't answer, its rhetorical.

lack of care for your fellow humans is a sick statement about yourself!

TheDoc

How about logic? Every Country that is decent, has welfare, poverty, taxes (some higher than others) every country in the world has corruption, big and small. Every country ranges, in every way.. some are good and some suck.. Your logic always sucks.

Our Gov spends, gives other countries billions, rebuilds schools and roads for others, gives billions in food to others when we have starving kids, moms dieing of cancer bankrupting the entire family, people freezing int he streets....and we turn around and give billionaires that lost billions more billions..

That must be plan C....

__________________

Ethersync

How about father and paralyzed from the chest down? He's got a crap HMO. Around 20+ family members and several friends chip in to help him with cash as needed. Some as little as $25 or so and those of more sufficient means considerably more. He has never not gotten a treatment he needed and not one of us has complained that the government should be paying for all of it

BlackCrayon

food can be free, as well as housing/shelter. its called the salvation army, shelters, public housing, ect. as for health care, i think thats different but do think that the care of a persons health should not be based on how much they make.

__________________
you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

Ethersync

Your facts are not all right.

Yes the US has a very high infant mortality rate. We rank around 29th in the world with 6.3 deaths/1,000 live births. Worse than Czech and Slovenia, but not worse than Slovakia and most other ex-Soviet states. Slightly worse than Cuba.

Slovakia 6.98 deaths/1,000 live births

Hungary 8.03 deaths/1,000 live births

Estonia 7.45 deaths/1,000 live births

Latvia 8.96 deaths/1,000 live births

Lithuania 6.57 deaths/1,000 live births

Romania 23.73 deaths/1,000 live births

The US is worse than most of the EU. What is interesting is that in 1960 we ranked 12th. What happened? Some believe it's related to the huge increase in cesarean sections performed in the US, but there doesn't seem to be enough data to prove that.

It's a problem, but not as huge of one as you make it out to be.


Life expectancy in America is 78.14.

Michael lives in Denmark I believe. Life expectancy there is 78.13 years.

The rate of the EU is 78.7 years. Not all that much different than the US. It's true that many European countries have a life expectancy a year or more than the US, but I would argue that is probably more due to DIET than health care.

BTW, Cuba is 77.27 years.

So living in the EU gets you an extra 6 months. Live in Cuba and you lose almost a year.

Those are the facts.

Barefootsies

You missed the point completely toots.

People, according to the media, want universal healthcare where everyone gets the same premiere coverage for free from the government. Not two tier healthcares where the working poor, homeless, kids get some degree of healthcare, and those more well off can afford better, including preventive and opt to pay for a better service.

See Canada.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

tony286

great points

tony286

I got to tell you those who have insurance the flood gates of service dont open I watched it with my dad. If my mother wasnt darth vader with these people his care would of sucked. Very few can pay out of pocket for the costs if they got really sick. I dont think people want super duper care they want to be able to go to the doc or if they are in a hospital they dont want it to bankrupt them.

pocketkangaroo

It's what the people of the country want. Of the people, by the people. Some would say we don't have a right to roads, police, or schools. These are all things that our government provides. It is based on the wants and desires of the people. I don't think this has anything to do with rights, but services we want our government to provide.

pocketkangaroo

If our idea of success is being better than Slovakia, we're in trouble. It's the United States, supposed superpower, wealthiest nation on the planet. Should we really be happy to be barely beating Slovakia?

I don't know if this has anything to do with universal health care. All I know is that it is embarrasing for our country to be that poor. We should investigate why and find ways to fix it.

I have heard that we have poor numbers primarily because many other countries have abortions at higher rates, especially with at-risk pregnancies.

pocketkangaroo

My opinion is that it isn't a right, there are few rights. But I do believe the true sign of greatness of a country is how well they treat their sick and poor.

pocketkangaroo

The smallest governments with the lowest taxes can be found in Africa. I'll let you figure out how vibrant their economy is and how free their people truly are.

Barefootsies

I hear what you are saying.

I agree that the U.S. should, or could, provide some measure of ... the term escapes me... major medical to those who seriously can't afford it. Homeless, under $20k a year, working poor, whatever. These people should be able to die on a bed like anyone else.

I do not think everyone should get free or subsidized coverage. Myself included. I can afford it if I want it.

I opted out of health care this year because the past couple of years, I spent more in premiums then I would have gotten back in coverage. For example, my doctor visits were not covered. I paid 50% or more on most of the tests and xrays I would receive. About the only thing I had gotten a decent discount on was medicine. But I am rarely sick as I am 36. This is with Blue Cross Blue Shield mind you.

I did shop around some for other carriers before dropping them completely. However, I love this shit, most insurance companies now will not insure you if you are over a target weight for your height. (new insurance)

So in my case, I think I the cut off for someone 6' is 220 lbs. I weight more than that by 30. So they would not cover me until I hit their max out weight and height limit.

This past year, I was at the doctors office all of one time. Early in the year. That is only because they would not give me a script without going in there. Although it is a recurring problem.

So 2008 medical bill. $71.00 plus a $15 prescription.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Why

its all relative to whose numbers you are using and which year you are looking at. im not going to argue the numbers, my only point was that for Americas social and economic standing in the world(course that's rapidly declining these days also), we rank quite poorly. every person is entitled, yes entitled, to health care, and that's my opinion on the matter. regardless of your agreement on the matter, you cant argue that the American health care system doesn't need a massive overhaul, and our standings across the board reflect that.

oh and by the way... they do C sections world wide, so that's a moot point, sorry.

just answer one question for us.... do you or do you not think that a person should be left to die simply because they can not afford health insurance? because if you think so, frankly, i think that classify as being a sociopath. ;)

Barefootsies

"the world is a village"... is just a slogan. I am not my brother's keeper.

Not real life. Time to wake up from the Utopian dream.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

pocketkangaroo

But if you come down with serious cancer tomorrow, you're looking at upwards of a million dollars in medical bills. While that might not be a lot to you, that is a lot to most Americans.

I think one of the big issues people are missing here is that the problem isn't just about not getting health insurance, it's the rules in place that fuck people like us. Health insurance companies can bend rules and basically fuck you out of anything they want. They can cancel you when you get sick and can simply refuse to pay the bills you have. They can determine that their medical diagnosis is better than your doctors and refuse to pay for specific procedures.

At the same time, pharmaceutical companies bend the rules too. They pay for vacations for doctors so they prescribe their more expensive drugs that are not needed. They lobby for rules so that patients can't get their drugs from other countries at a discount.

Then you have doctors who will milk good insurance companies. They'll overbills, run unnecessary tests, and prescribe unnecessary treatments.

In the end you have a circle jerk of those 3 fucking over the patient. Put some rules in place and actually punish the criminals and you reduce health insurance dramatically. Right now our government represents doctors, big pharma and the insurance companies, not the people.

Why

the world can be changed, don't give up on it! we will get out what we put in.

you dont have to keep your brother, thats not the point nor the question.... would you let him die, simply because he is not as well off as you?

i really dont believe you people are this cold, i just think your talking shit for shock value online. ;)

Barefootsies

To address your first point, if I had cancer, I would reapply for Blue Cross Blue Shield and in 6 months they would be back to picking up the tab for a pre-existing condition. I would pay the same rate I did before for my age, as that is what it is based on, regardless of my condition. They take everyone, and are the only company out there (to my knowledge, and the insurance agent) who will. So for 6 months I would have to foot the bill, second mortgage, whatever. Then I would be covered again with major medical for that shit.

On to your second point, I completely agree with you. There is a lot of corruption and greed in the healthcare system. It was started back in the Reagan era when he allowed HMO's to switch from the non-profit model, to what we have today. Starting this thing rolling into for profit healthcare.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

tony286

I watched this thing on pbs and they showed 3 people had a accident. One had insurance one had medicare and one had nothing. The person who got fucked the hardest was the one with insurance.

Barefootsies

Yes I am this cold.

Just like I do not agree with US giving free healthcare, or benefits, to non-citizens of this country. I have to pay taxes into the system. I get next to nothing in return from them compared to those who rape the system.

I believe that CITIZENS of this country who are homeless, poor, working poor, and kids should have some kind of major medical so they die in a bed like anyone else. That is my humanity.

For the rest, pay like everyone else. The solution to the problem is reforming healthcare in the United State from the top down. Not bottom up.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Barefootsies

Oh yeah. That is the truth too.

After I left telco, and my first year starting this business, I did not have insurance. I was coming off a decade of drinking, and having some serious heart issues where my heart would go into arrhythmia after a bender, and I would have to be cardioverted to get back on track. I went through that shit 13 times. However, the last time, I did not have insurance.

Long story short, a half day's stay in hospital and to be cardioverted was like $4000.00 or something. There were some couple of hundred things here and there, but it was in that ball park.

I dug out some of my old insurance records from the previous time(s). It was closer to $10k, for the same or less time doing the exact same procedure.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Ethersync

I only mentioned Slovakia because the person I was responding to did first.

Libertine

From an economic standpoint, covering only the big things doesn't make sense. Mainly because in many cases, starting treatment of an illness at an early phase ends up being far cheaper than only providing it when there is no other choice. Give people the possibility to visit their GP as soon as they notice there's something wrong, and you actually end up saving money down the line. Even more so because early treatment can often prevent functional disability.

So offering anything short of full coverage does not actually save money.

In fact, the only thing that really is cheaper than offering full coverage of all essentials (including GP visits and treatment for conditions that aren't life-threatening) is withholding essential treatment from those who can not pay for it. In that case, though, you will have numerous people dying from trivial illnesses. Some of which, of course, will prove to be infectious ones which will spread to others.

The US system is a great example of the above, actually. It spends around 50% more on health care per capita than other western countries of similar relative wealth do, spends just as much tax money as other western countries on health care, fails to provide universal coverage, and fails to provide a higher standard of care than other countries which spend far less and cover everyone.

It's a ridiculous system

As for not getting health insurance... the true point of getting insurance is not to make yearly net gains. It's to have a safeguard for exceptional situations which would be impossible to deal with otherwise. A bit of bad luck can leave you with hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills. Insurance serves to spread that risk between a large number of people, so they end up with manageable monthly costs rather than crippling once-in-a-lifetime ones.

__________________
/(bb|[^b]{2})/

Why

i agree, it needs fixing and anyone arguing that is just not being realistic. the fact that hard working individuals, citizens, can not afford proper health care is a tragedy and just shameful to put it lightly. if it requires the government to step all the way in and run it itself, so be it. whatever it takes, so everyone can go to the doctor and get treated fairly and not refused service.

onwebcam

Good luck on that one. If you're diagnosed with cancer you're not getting insurance from anyone but the government. That's like saying you'll buy a warranty for my car when the engine goes out. You're every doctor visit and your condition is cataloged for this very reason. The insurance company is a for profit company. They damn sure aren't going to sign you up on their policy when you'll cost them a million bucks minimum and you're paying a few hundred a month.

My dad worked for a 100+ year old company. Just before his minimum retirement point (15 years) they sent out a notice they were no longer paying for health insurance. Not long after the said no more retirement benefits. He will get the minimum retirement payments (if they still exist then) because he made it to that point everyone who hadn't was screwed. He worked for this company because of their history thinking he could retire from there and be done. Whereas he could have made much better money working for a smaller company without the security blanket. Once they took away the security blanket he quit.

He went on cobra insurance and 5 months down the road he was diagnosed with cancer. After the 6 months you have to pay full premium for you policy via cobra which was a month after he was diagnosed. His premium shot up to near $1000 a month and he couldn't work. He did keep paying with the money he had saved over the years. Just before his first surgery they did a check on his insurance and there was a glitch somehow where they told the hospital he didn't have any. They canceled his surgery and said he would have to go elsewhere they couldn't do the surgery. He eventually worked it out but if he wouldn't have he would be dead. Stage 3 cancer and months into it he's blown through everything he owned and can no longer afford medical. Medical bills mounted up to way past 1 million more than he's probably ever made in his life insurance was gone. Luckily and only because he was stage 3 he got government coverage and disability.

__________________
PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF.....
██████████████████▒ 99.5% complete.

onwebcam

To top things off the million plus in bills amounted to maybe 10 full days in the hospital with surgeries and at most 50 doctor visits. Some of his medication which wasn;t covered cost $350 a pill which had to be taken daily.

__________________
PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF.....
██████████████████▒ 99.5% complete.

tony286

I think the foot king has no idea what it could cost. lol

Barefootsies

Wrong.

Maybe read up on Blue Cross Blue Shield before you make these comments chief. I obvioulsy have.

In Michigan, they are a non-profit, and they DO sign up anyone. Terminal or not. However you have to wait the 6 month grace period of whatever.

Good luck on that whole reading and researching thing toots.
http://www.bcbsm.com/myblue/buyout_faq.shtml

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Barefootsies

Nah, I realize, and will add it back on later. Right now, just annoyed with the system.

I hear BCBS is coming out with something that COVERS preventive care (single, self employed), i.e. doctor visits, this next year. If that is the case, then will add it back on because I actually get some value from it then.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

kane

I think you are way off base on this one. I have asthma and I cannot buy health insurance that will cover it. None of them will sell it to me. I have talked to every one of them that I could find. I can get insurance, just no coverage for a preexisting condition. So if you think you will go back to Blue Cross and in 6 months they will cover you for cancer, you might want to rethink that because I am 99.9% sure they will not.

Here is the irony. You could, potentially, get a job with a company that gives you insurance and in 6 months they may start covering a preexisting condition. In the past before I was self employed that was the case. The companies I worked for would give me health insurance, I just had to wait 3-6 months for them to start covering me. That asthma, when it is controlled like mine, isn't a bank breaker. It could cost them a few hundred dollars a month. Cancer could cost them a million so there is a strong chance you couldn't even get coverage through a major companies policy.

The reason is simple. When you are part of a large group they make money off those that don't use the service. For ever 1 person that has prescriptions and uses the insurance regularly there are 50 or more that hardly ever use it so they still make money. When you are on a policy by yourself they don't make money if you actually plan to use it. This is why if you have any preexisting condition they won't cover it.

onwebcam

You're talking about a government subsidized policy chief. Not insurance. We have the same thing here in TN. It's just privatized medicare/medicaid.

__________________
PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF.....
██████████████████▒ 99.5% complete.

Barefootsies

No. You would be off base on this one.

I did not only read this on the website to point to ole off base chief. My insurance agent told me what I just told you. BCBS of MI is the only one who will cover you if terminal, or preexisting. As well BCBS did when I asked them about this issue when canceling my insurance. I specially asked them on both cancer (since I used to chew) and diabetes, and they told me, themselves, 180 days if I do not come back to them with insurance form a previous carrier.

I am not 'spit balling' my answers like many in this thread. I actually heard it from them.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

kane

Well, it looks like you live in a state that has some kind of deal with Blue Cross. I contacted them about getting insurance int he state I live in and they turned me down (well, they would accept me, they just wouldn't pay for any asthma related costs.)

sortie

Save The Scales!

__________________

onwebcam

Yep government subsidized policy. The company takes the profit on policies and write off the losers. Either way they profit and the tax payer loses. So we're back to the pay for a warranty when your car breaks down.

__________________
PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF.....
██████████████████▒ 99.5% complete.

Barefootsies

Riiiiiiight.

http://www.bcbs.com/about/
http://www.bcbs.com/about/faq/

I think you are confusing the fact the adminstrator of Medicare. Not medicare. Here is a little more reading for you toots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_cross_blue_shield

While they can vary from state to state on profit, versus non-profit. I can only speak on Michigan's.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Barefootsies

AfterShock or someone out west has talked about their BCBS. It does vary from state to state on some of the coverages. I wanna say that thread was last year.

Some are very dramatic changes from SE to SW BCBS versus Michigan's.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Barefootsies

No.

We are back to you learning to read.

Good luck with that whole, know it all, and reading thing.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

onwebcam

Like I said we have the same thing here. BCBS even. It's government subsidized. It's just at the state level. Medicaid/medicare is at the federal level. Either way tax dollars pay. 6 months into cancer will break pretty much anyone "toots" good luck.

__________________
PLEASE WAIT WHILE BIDEN ADMIN UNINSTALLS ITSELF.....
██████████████████▒ 99.5% complete.

kane

It might be worth me looking into them again. When I last looked at blue cross it was probably 4 years or more ago.

Thanks for the info. I don't know if my state has changed things, but it is worth checking out.

Barefootsies

Or live in Michigan for 6 months of the year. Then you can get coverage here.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

collegeboobies

well you shouldnt have to pay $175 for sitting in a waiting room and seeing a doctor for 10 minutes

kane

True. I wonder if they would let me just rent one of those mail boxes and call it my permanent Michigan address ")

Barefootsies

If that.

Sometimes I will see them 10-20 minutes, but typically, I spend more time with the nurse and her weighing, blood pressure, breath in and out, light in the ear, and telling her what is wrong then I do with the DR.

DR comes in. Says I hear you have... does some shit, then starts with the scripts, or tests they want, and I have to walk down the hall to get them. Once done, I come back, DR already looks at whatever (xray, blood test, etc.), then comes in and tells me what they think it is.

Hand me scripts and a bill, and send me on my way.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

Barefootsies

Dunno on that one. You know how insurance companies can be.

I had asked them on that (residency) as well. I am planning to move out of state full or part time within 5 years (hopefully) for the west coast. They told me I have to be in MI at least 6 months of the year to keep my insurance.

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

pocketkangaroo

True, but the State of Michigan helps subsidize those costs. So in a way, the health insurance industry there is socialized.