Why do people think health care is a right? - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

pocketkangaroo · 01-10-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

If that.

Sometimes I will see them 10-20 minutes, but typically, I spend more time with the nurse and her weighing, blood pressure, breath in and out, light in the ear, and telling her what is wrong then I do with the DR.

DR comes in. Says I hear you have... does some shit, then starts with the scripts, or tests they want, and I have to walk down the hall to get them. Once done, I come back, DR already looks at whatever (xray, blood test, etc.), then comes in and tells me what they think it is.

Hand me scripts and a bill, and send me on my way.

I was having some chest soreness awhile back. I had been to the ER and they gave me a clean bill of health. But I scheduled an appointment with my doctor to get a real diagnosis. The nurses spent about 15 minutes taking blood pressure and all the other stuff. Doctor came in for literally a minute, listened to my heart for a second and wrote me a prescription for an acid reducer. My insurance company got billed like $150.

Barefootsies · 01-10-2009, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo

I was having some chest soreness awhile back. I had been to the ER and they gave me a clean bill of health. But I scheduled an appointment with my doctor to get a real diagnosis. The nurses spent about 15 minutes taking blood pressure and all the other stuff. Doctor came in for literally a minute, listened to my heart for a second and wrote me a prescription for an acid reducer. My insurance company got billed like $150.

Yep. I know exactly what you mean there.

The lone exception to that example I, and you, gave is this one bitchy DR at my place. She has no... what is the term.... bedside manner. But she is good.

A couple of years ago I had a sinus infection from hell. I went to the DR's and they gave me an antibiotic, but it was the wrong kind (viral versus fungus or something?) and so I suffered for a week and it got a lot worse to the point I had to go into immediate care.

Basically my throat had almost swollen shut and I had stopped breathing a few times, and almost passed out before getting to the phone or catching my breath. Anyways, drove straight to the immediate care, and they gave me another antibiotic. Wrong again. Two weeks later, I was back to the status I was on my first visit.

I get the bitch (I have had her before). I tell her what up. She spends the time listening, I tell her my other DR experiences on this over the month. Her remark, "Yeah. Well I kinda like to know what the problem is before I write scripts".

She sends me down for Xrays, and I was almost at the point of phenomena with all the liquid on my lungs and air pockets in my sinuses or whatever. Anyways, she switch the antibiotic to whatever the other kind was. Within two weeks, problem gone.

Never had a bad sinus infection like that in two years. Funny. I was having 2-3 a year prior to that. Just goes to show you. Even the BEST, insurance covered care, doesn't really mean shit in the end.

Total cost, above insurance, $1500+, 45 days to resolve.

kane · 01-10-2009, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by collegeboobies

well you shouldnt have to pay $175 for sitting in a waiting room and seeing a doctor for 10 minutes

I hear that.

Several months ago I needed to get a prescription refilled. I contacted my doctor and was told the doctor I normally see is no longer there. I knew this, but was told any other doc there could see me. I was told since it was a new doctor that I couldn't get a refill without seeing them and the earliest appointment was 10 days away. That wasn't going to work, I only had a couple of days worth of medicine. they won't call in a refill even if I make an appointment. So I end up going to a different doctor just to get a refill prescription just to hold me over until I can get in to the other place.

The visit with this new doctor literally was about 5 minutes. I explained what I needed. She listened to my lungs, wrote me a prescription and I was out the door. It cost me $150 for that 5 minutes. Pretty crazy.

Barefootsies · 01-10-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

I hear that.

Several months ago I needed to get a prescription refilled. I contacted my doctor and was told the doctor I normally see is no longer there. I knew this, but was told any other doc there could see me. I was told since it was a new doctor that I couldn't get a refill without seeing them and the earliest appointment was 10 days away. That wasn't going to work, I only had a couple of days worth of medicine. they won't call in a refill even if I make an appointment. So I end up going to a different doctor just to get a refill prescription just to hold me over until I can get in to the other place.

The visit with this new doctor literally was about 5 minutes. I explained what I needed. She listened to my lungs, wrote me a prescription and I was out the door. It cost me $150 for that 5 minutes. Pretty crazy.

Yeah, I noticed that with my place as well....

$71 to see the DR no script.
$121+ to see DR get any kind of script.
$150+ if I get any kind of referral.. blood test, xrays, etc

Keep in mind, this does not include the cost OF the blood test, xrays, etc. Those bills come later.

pocketkangaroo · 01-10-2009, 11:30 PM

Just to show how it's not always the insurance companies fault, I look back at my Mom's nearly one month stay in the hospital. She had doctors that none of us had ever seen billing her for visits. There was one doctor who continued to bill her for daily visits a week after she left the hospital. Other doctors would come in the room, look at her chart, then leave and bill her $130.

It's almost humorous at the end of the day. They see a patient who will be there for awhile with good insurance and jump on it like vultures. Doctors from throughout the hospital were stopping in to check and bill her account. Since she was there for an extended time, they sent a psychiatrist in to make sure she wasn't getting depressed. The psychiatrist spent 30 minutes there and charged her $600. One doctor she had never heard of, never remembered meeting, and had no mention on her chart billed her $1200.

It was the first time in my life I actually felt bad for the insurance companies. They were just getting raped. It did cause my Mom some issues since the insurance company refused to pay for the doctor who billed her for time she wasn't even in the hospital. Took my Mom many calls to this doctor's office and finally a formal complaint to the medical board before he removed the charges.

Guess what I'm saying is that our insurance costs are high not just because these guys want to rip us off, but because doctors are fucking scumbags too.

Barefootsies · 01-10-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo

Guess what I'm saying is that our insurance costs are high not just because these guys want to rip us off, but because doctors are fucking scumbags too.

Completely agree.

A big thank you to Reagan for changing the restrictions on HMO's so they could be FOR PROFIT companies.

kane · 01-10-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo

Just to show how it's not always the insurance companies fault, I look back at my Mom's nearly one month stay in the hospital. She had doctors that none of us had ever seen billing her for visits. There was one doctor who continued to bill her for daily visits a week after she left the hospital. Other doctors would come in the room, look at her chart, then leave and bill her $130.

It's almost humorous at the end of the day. They see a patient who will be there for awhile with good insurance and jump on it like vultures. Doctors from throughout the hospital were stopping in to check and bill her account. Since she was there for an extended time, they sent a psychiatrist in to make sure she wasn't getting depressed. The psychiatrist spent 30 minutes there and charged her $600. One doctor she had never heard of, never remembered meeting, and had no mention on her chart billed her $1200.

It was the first time in my life I actually felt bad for the insurance companies. They were just getting raped. It did cause my Mom some issues since the insurance company refused to pay for the doctor who billed her for time she wasn't even in the hospital. Took my Mom many calls to this doctor's office and finally a formal complaint to the medical board before he removed the charges.

Guess what I'm saying is that our insurance costs are high not just because these guys want to rip us off, but because doctors are fucking scumbags too.

There is another reason too and that is the non-payers. We have free health care in this country. It is called the ER. If you go to the ER at a public hospital they will see you and treat you. If you don't pay the bill they may try to come after you for it, but if you are poor and have no assets worth going after they just eat the cost. They then pass that cost on to the people that come in with good insurance or that will pay the bill. This is why when they give you two aspirin they charge you $20 for them or why they bill you $30 for one of those little plastic vomit tubs.

Those with insurance or that will pay the bill help make up for everyone that can't or doesn't pay.

chodadog · 01-11-2009, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

You missed the point completely toots.

People, according to the media, want universal healthcare where everyone gets the same premiere coverage for free from the government. Not two tier healthcares where the working poor, homeless, kids get some degree of healthcare, and those more well off can afford better, including preventive and opt to pay for a better service.

See Canada.

I think it's you that's missed the point, toots. I pointed out that you were making a generalisation about people who believe in public health care. I think every country should have a public system. I also think there should be a private system running alongside it. Private health care eases the burden on the public system significantly. Here in Australia, there are even tax incentives to encourage people to get private health cover.

I wonder if America would be a less litigious society if whenever someone fell over walking down the street, they didn't have to sue someone to pay for their medical bills.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-11-2009, 02:01 AM

Healthcare should be a right because people pay taxes.

roly · 01-11-2009, 02:20 AM

i don't know how much you pay for private health care insurance in the US, but for the average man contributing to healthcare for all probably wouldn't cost you anymore than what you pay for private. it probably would cost very big earners some more byt they can afford it.

Blingbaby · 01-11-2009, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio

There's no such thing as free health care, health care costs money, and where did the money come from? Taxes! Which means my pocket, looks like I actually paid for the "free health care".

You act like you're the only one paying taxes in this country. Then bitch about your taxes going to helping out the infrastructure of you economy ie. healthy people when all this time your taxes multiplied by thousands in contrast go to feed a vast military system that does nothing but estrange us from the people we seek to *help*. There is a tremendous inequity and unbalanced system at work here and if you don't see it you are either brain washed or brain dead..

Blingbaby · 01-11-2009, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roly

i don't know how much you pay for private health care insurance in the US, but for the average man contributing to healthcare for all probably wouldn't cost you anymore than what you pay for private. it probably would cost very big earners some more byt they can afford it.

Exactly. If only by eliminating the middle man, insurance company fat cats, it would virtually pay for itself. But Americans have been scared off for decades about the pinkos, reds, hippies etc to the point where they function like automatons and any hint of socialist living which is really just community living is a terrifying idea..

Dave_Lethal · 01-11-2009, 03:15 AM

I believe that healthcare and higher education should be free to anyone who pays taxes (or is too poor to pay taxes) because your tax dollars should do something to improve your quality of life, you are forced to pay them and for most middle class people, infrastructure is the only thing they really get out of it. We are willing to spend billions on war, space exploration and ridiculous public works projects (i.e. the Alaskan Bridge to Nowhere), but services that would be beneficial to any common person are costly and are only obtained through harsh means such as student loans, which I need to start paying by way, so Sallie Mae will get off my ass)

uno · 01-11-2009, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Because they are delusional.

Same as they think there should not be a 'class system' in healthcare, where, if you can afford it. You get better service, and cut in the front of the line.

That is how healthcare works in most countries I can think of that have a form of universal healthcare.

uno · 01-11-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneB

My problem with healthcare is not just the cost. It is the fact that they label everything and give you a pill for it. If you have to much energy, you are hyperactive. If you can not sleep one night a week you have insomnia. They hand out pills like damn candy. Healthcare needs to be fixed on many levels.

Hyperactivity and insomnia are two very real things.

A better example would be restless leg syndrome(which does exist, but come on...).

uno · 01-11-2009, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Choose only ONE of the following.

A. Welfare, entitlements, socialism, poverty, high taxes, corruption, big government

B. Freedom, vibrant economy, low taxes, individual rights, small government

They are not compatible.

Hello Mr. Ginormous Logical Fallacy.

Doctor Dre · 01-11-2009, 03:55 AM

There are so many retarded/unreleated comments in this thread that I'm not going to bother.

After Shock Media · 01-11-2009, 04:08 AM

i use oodles of health care-
enough actually that it seems i work more for hospitals and doctors than i do for myself-
i am positive i have seen every side and aspect of health care in america-
there does seem to be a lot of odd information in this thread when it comes to american health care-
one thing that is for sure is that you must know the system and the rules or you will end up on the short end-
i absolutely need health care and i for one would not be to thrilled with government ran health care which is what free health care would be-

ah fuck this i am sick of this pc issue and not fix suggestions yet-
i will be back a bit latter after i do a system restore-

Blingbaby · 01-11-2009, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

i use oodles of health care-
enough actually that it seems i work more for hospitals and doctors than i do for myself-
i am positive i have seen every side and aspect of health care in america-
there does seem to be a lot of odd information in this thread when it comes to american health care-
one thing that is for sure is that you must know the system and the rules or you will end up on the short end-
i absolutely need health care and i for one would not be to thrilled with government ran health care which is what free health care would be-

ah fuck this i am sick of this pc issue and not fix suggestions yet-
i will be back a bit latter after i do a system restore-

I think the misnomer is *free*. Nothing in life is free, no matter what system. Nobody suggests mana from heaven and getting things free, the issue is a centralized health care system that doesn't stop when you change jobs or if you are in between jobs or work for yoursel or has anything to do with your employer.

Another issue is not letting preventative health issues drag on to where they become burdens on society, either because it removes the person(s) from available work pool or that the condition develops into a much more costly situation.

frank7799 · 01-11-2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Health care isn't ever really free..

Of course not. You can fund health care systems by taxes, by private health insurences or a national health insurance. You can even offer a mix.

The German way for example is a national health insurance for employees. The dues are deducted from the wages.
As long as you are getting your income from independent work, you are not required to pay for the national health care. But you can pay voluntary contributions. Another way for self employed is the private health insurance. The difference is that the financial contributions are above contributions for the national health care, but the medical attendance is much better. A doctor can earn about as twice as much for the same treatment, you get medicines you wouldn´t get if you´d be member of the national health care system and so on.
If you are not a member of any insurance, you won´t get shit.

The German national health care system is about to collapse. So I´d stick to the private systems.

And to answer the question: health care can´t be free, but the real problem is how to treat those who can´t afford contributions? Will you leave them to rot or is it a social conscience to help them?

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

There is another reason too and that is the non-payers. We have free health care in this country. It is called the ER. If you go to the ER at a public hospital they will see you and treat you. If you don't pay the bill they may try to come after you for it, but if you are poor and have no assets worth going after they just eat the cost. They then pass that cost on to the people that come in with good insurance or that will pay the bill. This is why when they give you two aspirin they charge you $20 for them or why they bill you $30 for one of those little plastic vomit tubs.

Those with insurance or that will pay the bill help make up for everyone that can't or doesn't pay.

That's true. Also, one of the reasons the price of drugs is so high in the US is because of artificial price controls in Europe. Simply put, US citizens are subsidizing drugs for Europeans...

Donfoolio · 01-11-2009, 07:57 AM

Medical Science started as a service to mankind, in the beginning it was a nice and decent job and doctors even visited YOUR HOUSE! But as time went by and capitalism took over as with anything good it became a BUSINESS in stead of a service! Personally I believe it is everyones duty to help their fellow man and health care should be a right of all. But since it was perverted by money and greed, we lose.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4yadult

The German national health care system is about to collapse. So I´d stick to the private systems.

Many other European countries are facing the same problem.....

frank7799 · 01-11-2009, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

That's true. Also, one of the reasons the price of drugs is so high in the US is because of artificial price controls in Europe. Simply put, US citizens are subsidizing drugs for Europeans...

You may elaborate that. I hear the bold claim, but I can´t see evidence.

TheDoc · 01-11-2009, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

That's true. Also, one of the reasons the price of drugs is so high in the US is because of artificial price controls in Europe. Simply put, US citizens are subsidizing drugs for Europeans...

The drugs really cost 50 cents or a few bucks to make, and they sell them to Americans for 1000% markup. Other Countries don't allow the Citizens to be taken advantage of quite like ours does.

The co-pay almost all of us pays covers 100% of the cost of the drug and it creates profit on the spot. That's why I can drive down to Mexico, purchase the exact same drug, and pay less than my co-pay.

buzzy · 01-11-2009, 08:12 AM

Basically we are all filthy communists

TheDoc · 01-11-2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4yadult

Of course not. You can fund health care systems by taxes, by private health insurences or a national health insurance. You can even offer a mix.

The German way for example is a national health insurance for employees. The dues are deducted from the wages.
As long as you are getting your income from independent work, you are not required to pay for the national health care. But you can pay voluntary contributions. Another way for self employed is the private health insurance. The difference is that the financial contributions are above contributions for the national health care, but the medical attendance is much better. A doctor can earn about as twice as much for the same treatment, you get medicines you wouldn´t get if you´d be member of the national health care system and so on.
If you are not a member of any insurance, you won´t get shit.

The German national health care system is about to collapse. So I´d stick to the private systems.

And to answer the question: health care can´t be free, but the real problem is how to treat those who can´t afford contributions? Will you leave them to rot or is it a social conscience to help them?

Aye, I lived in Canada for two years and was able to use the Medical system, and I paid crazy taxes overall for everything. It sure made getting paid seem... odd.

Biggest difference today... Our household insurance/medical costs are more than the extra tax I paid in Canada.

Germany may be having it harder, but not all Gov provided healthcare systems are. Germany's may suck but so does America.. I think of ours as already failed. I assume you guys don't have like 1/3 of your population, working and paying taxes but not able to get ANY type of insurance.

When you a single mom in Germany has a kid and works but doesn't have a job that provides insurance, do the new mom now have to fork over $20,000?

I had insurance it still cost me about $20k...

frank7799 · 01-11-2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

When you a single mom in Germany has a kid and works but doesn't have a job that provides insurance, do the new mom now have to fork over $20,000?

I had insurance it still cost me about $20k...

All employees are required by law to be a member of the national health care system.

They charge a percentage of the wages, at this time 15.5%. Those are split between the employee and the employer.
So basically you pay less if you earn less for the exact same service. For example if you earn $2,000.00 per month, your total monthly contribution is $310.00, if you earn $4,000.00 it is $620.

LadyMischief · 01-11-2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baX

Michael Moore has a great show on this subject.

Yes but that movie is very skewed honestly.. Their portrayal of the Canadian system, while accurate in it's representation fo what we PAY, is NOT an accurate representation of the services we get. I've had one or two year waits to see a specialist, and that's not ok.

LadyMischief · 01-11-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Aye, I lived in Canada for two years and was able to use the Medical system, and I paid crazy taxes overall for everything. It sure made getting paid seem... odd.

Biggest difference today... Our household insurance/medical costs are more than the extra tax I paid in Canada.

Germany may be having it harder, but not all Gov provided healthcare systems are. Germany's may suck but so does America.. I think of ours as already failed. I assume you guys don't have like 1/3 of your population, working and paying taxes but not able to get ANY type of insurance.

When you a single mom in Germany has a kid and works but doesn't have a job that provides insurance, do the new mom now have to fork over $20,000?

I had insurance it still cost me about $20k...

England has had public health care since the 40's...and it isn't an issue for them. Not to mention they pay the same price for ALL perscriptions no matter the actual cost of the meds... I like the way they do it better than here in Canada. In Canada we still get stuck footing the bill of scripts, dental, optical, etc. There they don't have to pay for squat.

Libertine · 01-11-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4yadult

All employees are required by law to be a member of the national health care system.

They charge a percentage of the wages, at this time 15.5%. Those are split between the employee and the employer.
So basically you pay less if you earn less for the exact same service. For example if you earn $2,000.00 per month, your total monthly contribution is $310.00, if you earn $4,000.00 it is $620.

It's around 15.5% up to a maximum income of about 3600 euros a month, so the maximum paid per month is 558 euros.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why

its all relative to whose numbers you are using and which year you are looking at. im not going to argue the numbers...

I'm using your numbers and your source

CIA World Factbook. 2008 numbers.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...ook/index.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why

oh and by the way... they do C sections world wide, so that's a moot point, sorry.

You really should take a few minutes to review the facts before you post stuff like this.

"The New York Times reports today on a study of over 5.7 million births in the US (between 1999 and 2001) that the neonatal mortality rate for Caesarean deliveries was 1.5 times that for vaginal births..."
http://economics.com.au/?p=357

"Infant and neonatal mortality rates are higher with voluntary caesarean sections than with vaginal births"
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=19919

"Infants born through caesarean section are at high risk of death, especially if the mothers have no medical need for the procedure."
http://www.doctorndtv.com/news/detailnews.asp?id=2228

"Part of the reason for the increased mortality may be that labor, unpleasant as it sometimes is for the mother, is beneficial to the baby..."
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2006/09/...ve-higher.html

"The increase is attributed to fears of malpractice lawsuits if a vaginal delivery goes wrong, the preferences of mothers and physicians, and the risks of attempting vaginal births after Caesareans."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10055309/

"The CDC just released its preliminary birth data for 2006. For yet another year, the US cesarean rate has hit a record high at 31.1%. This is a 50% rise over the past decade, and almost a six-fold increase since 1970, when 5.5% of women gave birth via cesarean section."
http://rixarixa.blogspot.com/2007/12...rean-rate.html

1 in 3 babies are born by cesarean in the United States. Japan's cesarean rate is 21%, Netherlands 12%. The US may be second only to Brazil which has a huge infant mortality rate of 23.33 deaths/1,000 live births!

There is a worldwide effort to decrease the rate of cesarean sections because they are finding the procedure to be quite harmful to the baby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why

just answer one question for us.... do you or do you not think that a person should be left to die simply because they can not afford health insurance? because if you think so, frankly, i think that classify as being a sociopath. ;)

So your argument has fallen to the level of making personal attacks? You make it sound like people are dying in the streets because they don't have insurance. Do you personally know someone that died because they didn't have insurance? Do you know OF someone that has?

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I assume you guys don't have like 1/3 of your population, working and paying taxes but not able to get ANY type of insurance.

That's not true. Over 85% of Americans have health insurance.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyMischief

England has had public health care since the 40's...and it isn't an issue for them.

The UK is also on the verge of financial ruin. Their economy (and currency) is collapsing. They have a housing bubble that has yet to burst and they have already had to bail out banks. Their economy is in such bad shape right now they don't even meet the minimum criteria to adopt the Euro. It's very likely they are going to end up needing IMF bailout money within a few years.

It will be very interesting to see how their health care system holds up through all this because they are in far worse shape than the US (which is a mess itself)

TheDoc · 01-11-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

That's not true. Over 85% of Americans have health insurance.

Insurance offered by a massive amount of small companies works great for the owner but is horrible for the employee. So they go on the stats as being able to offer insurance but the person uses a spouses or family members policy, again adding to the numbers.

One thing I can say about American insurance, it's cheap for kids.

When a person can't get a job and unemployment benefits drop, they are no longer part of the unemployment percentage, that's why the rate 'seems' so low. Even when these people eight months or a year later do get a job, it's often a job with a smaller company.

Smaller companies often don't have insurance..or it's expensive and offers really nothing good. So the person remains on the spouses policy...

Statistically, the person has insurance but in reality, without the spouse or family member, they wouldn't. It would cost more than they could pay or they simply wouldn't have it at all.

They also include people like my dad, retired, insurance paid for by the Gov. And vets, all of us even us, and gov/state workers and the poor. And with all these, often include family members.

The number may not be 33%, but I'm not foolish enough to believe the Gov published stats and tracked data, that they publish for others to use.. is only 15%.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Insurance offered by a massive amount of small companies works great for the owner but is horrible for the employee. So they go on the stats as being able to offer insurance but the person uses a spouses or family members policy, again adding to the numbers.

One thing I can say about American insurance, it's cheap for kids.

When a person can't get a job and unemployment benefits drop, they are no longer part of the unemployment percentage, that's why the rate 'seems' so low. Even when these people eight months or a year later do get a job, it's often a job with a smaller company.

Smaller companies often don't have insurance..or it's expensive and offers really nothing good. So the person remains on the spouses policy...

Statistically, the person has insurance but in reality, without the spouse or family member, they wouldn't. It would cost more than they could pay or they simply wouldn't have it at all.

They also include people like my dad, retired, insurance paid for by the Gov. And vets, all of us even us, and gov/state workers and the poor. And with all these, often include family members.

The number may not be 33%, but I'm not foolish enough to believe the Gov published stats and tracked data, that they publish for others to use.. is only 15%.

The numbers could be fudged, but I honestly do not know anyone without insurance. I did not have it for years in my 20s by choice. I just didn't feel like spending the money. Now I have a very good PPO plan that costs me $89 a month. Yes, there is a high deductible, but I really don't care since I spend only a few hundred a year on doctor visits. If something catastrophic happens I am completely covered after my deductible.

You are right about unemployment numbers being fudged. So are many economic indicators including inflation in order to keep social security payments down among other reasons...

frank7799 · 01-11-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine

It's around 15.5% up to a maximum income of about 3600 euros a month, so the maximum paid per month is 558 euros.

Right, and it includes the family of the employee, so it doesn´t get more expensive if he or she is married and has kids. It´s called "Beitragsbemessungsgrenze" and it´s currently 3.675,00 ? / month.

The percentage (Beitragssatz) is exactly 15.5 % starting in 2009 for every public insurence. It´s the last change of the law called "Gesundheitsfond".

roly · 01-11-2009, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

The UK is also on the verge of financial ruin. Their economy (and currency) is collapsing. They have a housing bubble that has yet to burst and they have already had to bail out banks. Their economy is in such bad shape right now they don't even meet the minimum criteria to adopt the Euro. It's very likely they are going to end up needing IMF bailout money within a few years.

It will be very interesting to see how their health care system holds up through all this because they are in far worse shape than the US (which is a mess itself)

the housing bubble in the UK burst at the begining of the credit crunch and it looks like we've started to reach the bottom of the slide now, and things may well start to improve soon. it's only the fact that the banks are unwilling to lend at the moment, and confidence is very low.

the economy is in recession but which country isn't at the moment? we don't meet the criteria with regards to entry to the euro at the moment because the government has borrowed large amounts to try and get us out of this mess, by buying, in some cases majority shareholdings in very large banks to prevent them collapsing, and it has also pumped billions into the money markets to get the banks lending again.

so although he's borrowed huge amounts he's going to get it back and there's a good chance especially with regards shareholdings in the banks they may very well make a decent profit when they recover. so i don't see why we would need the imf's help.

the pound is very low against the euro partly currently but in many ways that's a good thing, it makes our exports cheaper than the rest of europe and will help tp get the ecconomy back on track. besides we won't be joining the euro any time soon anyway and that was the case well before this recession took hold.

back on topic, no government would dare get rid of the national health service in the uk, not in my lifetime anyway.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roly

the housing bubble in the UK burst at the begining of the credit crunch and it looks like we've started to reach the bottom of the slide now, and things may well start to improve soon. it's only the fact that the banks are unwilling to lend at the moment, and confidence is very low.

They are unwilling to each other and to people in general because they do not know what their own CDS exposure is let alone their competitors. The cash they are hording may not even be enough to cover their own obligations.

The housing market is nowhere near the bottom right now. There will be a lot more bankruptcies and foreclosures before the bottom is reached.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roly

the economy is in recession but which country isn't at the moment? we don't meet the criteria with regards to entry to the euro at the moment because the government has borrowed large amounts to try and get us out of this mess, by buying, in some cases majority shareholdings in very large banks to prevent them collapsing, and it has also pumped billions into the money markets to get the banks lending again.

Money is debt. The problem is too much debt in the system. Injecting more money into the system is only increasing the debt. It will only make things worse. Their solution only shows how desperate things are. It will will not work. It's a hail mary and no one is at the end of the field to catch it.

The UK will be in a full fledged depression before things start to get better. Mark my words

Quote:

Originally Posted by roly

so although he's borrowed huge amounts he's going to get it back and there's a good chance especially with regards shareholdings in the banks they may very well make a decent profit when they recover. so i don't see why we would need the imf's help.

Yes, that is the BS the government keeps repeating. It will not work out that way. The UK took IMF money around 1974 and they will do it again (if the IMF has any left at that point).

Quote:

Originally Posted by roly

the pound is very low against the euro partly currently but in many ways that's a good thing, it makes our exports cheaper than the rest of europe and will help tp get the ecconomy back on track. besides we won't be joining the euro any time soon anyway and that was the case well before this recession took hold.

The pound is collapsing. This is not a good thing. In the short term it may help with exports a tiny bit, but nowhere near enough to dig the economy out of the hole it is in. It's like saying that having terminal cancer isn't the end of the world since you will save money on food. While true the patient is in extreme denial about the reality of their situation...

Quote:

Originally Posted by roly

back on topic, no government would dare get rid of the national health service in the uk, not in my lifetime anyway.

That I actually believe, but I think the quality of service will go down hill a lot. Wait times will go up and the government will cover less and less.

European banks are way more overleveraged than US banks. We're talking 30:1 and in some cases as high as 50:1. When I hear the European press blame America for the problems in Europe I find it hysterical. I would love to join them and point fingers, but unfortunately it's not true. What does America have to do with Swedish banks fucking themselves due to their exposure in the Baltics? ...or Austria, Switzerland, etc, etc... Things started falling apart in the US with the subprime mess. Europe's exposure in developing markets (Eastern Europe and Asia) is a much larger problem than the US subprime mess and the problems have only now just begun to surface. Add to this all the social obligations in Europe and you are looking at a very painful reality check for the average European.

The US is fucked, but Europe is fucked in every hole.

uno · 01-11-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Completely agree.

A big thank you to Reagan for changing the restrictions on HMO's so they could be FOR PROFIT companies.

Didn't that process start under Nixon?

01-11-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

There is another reason too and that is the non-payers. We have free health care in this country. It is called the ER. If you go to the ER at a public hospital they will see you and treat you. If you don't pay the bill they may try to come after you for it, but if you are poor and have no assets worth going after they just eat the cost. They then pass that cost on to the people that come in with good insurance or that will pay the bill. This is why when they give you two aspirin they charge you $20 for them or why they bill you $30 for one of those little plastic vomit tubs.

Those with insurance or that will pay the bill help make up for everyone that can't or doesn't pay.

Good post. We all end up covering the non-payers. What really pisses me off is that I have to cover the people who are not even US citizens. Here in AZ, the illegals will go to the ER for anything because they do not have insurance. They run up huge bills and do not pay them. The whole healthcare system needs an overhaul.

FYI I actually was charged $40 for two aspirin once.

Quagmire · 01-11-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

You want a government that can't keep your back yard clean from toxins to be in charge of your health care?

That wasn't the original question you asked though, was it.

I don't WANT them in charge of it but the reality of it is big business doesn't do a better job when it comes to taking care of people. Look at the banks and insurance companies. They take care of themselves first, much like the cocksuckers in politics.

So, better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

kane · 01-11-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneB

Good post. We all end up covering the non-payers. What really pisses me off is that I have to cover the people who are not even US citizens. Here in AZ, the illegals will go to the ER for anything because they do not have insurance. They run up huge bills and do not pay them. The whole healthcare system needs an overhaul.

FYI I actually was charged $40 for two aspirin once.

This is very true. Where I live we have a pretty large population of migrant workers. Many of them are illegals. If you go to an ER or an urgent care center you can expect that a large number of the people there are illegals.

kane · 01-11-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

The drugs really cost 50 cents or a few bucks to make, and they sell them to Americans for 1000% markup. Other Countries don't allow the Citizens to be taken advantage of quite like ours does.

The co-pay almost all of us pays covers 100% of the cost of the drug and it creates profit on the spot. That's why I can drive down to Mexico, purchase the exact same drug, and pay less than my co-pay.

Yep, we are the only industrialized country in the world that doesn't have some kind of price control on medicine. Here are a couple of interesting things:

1. One of the medicines I take for Asthma costs $315 for a 60 day supply. That is the cheapest I can find it. Some pharmacies charge up to $360. I can buy it online for $90. It is the exact same medicine from the exact same manufacturer and it is 1/3 the price. The online company will pay for shipping too so I actually get it for around $80. They can afford to sell it to me for $80 and still make a profit which means at $315 or more the company is making a huge profit.

2. Pharmacies will often charge people who pay cash more for the same drugs. Many insurance companies have a cap that they will pay for a drug. Say, for example, they will only pay $90 for a drug. You have a $10 co-pay. So the pharmacy will charge you $100 for the drug. You pay $10 and the insurance pays $90. Someone comes in without insurance and wants to pay cash. Often the pharmacy will charge them $120, $130 or more for the same drug. If you want to humor yourself call up a bunch of pharmacies and get a price check on a drug. It is wild how much the prices will vary and many of them will ask you. "Is this a cash price you want?" They ask that because they are planning to fuck you over.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quagmire

That wasn't the original question you asked though, was it.

I don't WANT them in charge of it but the reality of it is big business doesn't do a better job when it comes to taking care of people. Look at the banks and insurance companies. They take care of themselves first, much like the cocksuckers in politics.

So, better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

The problem is corporatism.

Being a congressman or senator was not meant to be a career and a way to get rich. It was for people who wanted to serve their country. It was for people who wanted to help. It has become a business though and the people that really would do the work for the right reasons face insurmountable odds.

Here are a few ideas I have that will fix things fast...

There should be term limits for senators and members of the house.

Senators and congressman should be required to sign under penalty of perjury that they have read entirely and understand legislation they are signing. No exceptions.

Lobbying a senator or congressman should be illegal. Their staff should do the necessary research.

Will things get done slower? Yes, and that is good.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

Yep, we are the only industrialized country in the world that doesn't have some kind of price control on medicine. Here are a couple of interesting things:

Price controls are never the answer

kane · 01-11-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

Price controls are never the answer

In almost every case I would agree with you. If you make a product that costs you $1 to make and you can sell it for $125 you should be allowed to do so. That said, most products are not a matter of life and death for some people. There are a lot of people who go without medicine because they can't afford it and it either cuts their lives short or it makes their quality of life much lower.

I'm not saying that they should be forced to only mark the price up 5%, but in many cases it is just outrageous how much they mark it up. One of the reasons health care costs so much is the cost of drugs. I guess I don't see why a reasonable price control on medicine is such a bad thing.

Ethersync · 01-11-2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

In almost every case I would agree with you. If you make a product that costs you $1 to make and you can sell it for $125 you should be allowed to do so. That said, most products are not a matter of life and death for some people. There are a lot of people who go without medicine because they can't afford it and it either cuts their lives short or it makes their quality of life much lower.

I'm not saying that they should be forced to only mark the price up 5%, but in many cases it is just outrageous how much they mark it up. One of the reasons health care costs so much is the cost of drugs. I guess I don't see why a reasonable price control on medicine is such a bad thing.

The price controls that other countries have on drugs are not without their own side effects. Namely they are big part of the reason why our drugs in America are so expensive.

Grapesoda · 01-11-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

A lot of people, especially Europeans, feel that everyone is entitled to free health care simply because they are alive. Why? Are we all entitled to free food as well? Maybe a free place to live too?

Where do you draw the line and why?

Logically speaking I think an argument can be made that free food makes more sense than free health care.

I'm actually really interested someone explaining this...

I'm still trying to figure out why people think they have the right to have children and force me to pay for them

roly · 01-11-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

They are unwilling to each other and to people in general because they do not know what their own CDS exposure is let alone their competitors. The cash they are hording may not even be enough to cover their own obligations.

The housing market is nowhere near the bottom right now. There will be a lot more bankruptcies and foreclosures before the bottom is reached.

Money is debt. The problem is too much debt in the system. Injecting more money into the system is only increasing the debt. It will only make things worse. Their solution only shows how desperate things are. It will will not work. It's a hail mary and no one is at the end of the field to catch it.

The UK will be in a full fledged depression before things start to get better. Mark my words

Yes, that is the BS the government keeps repeating. It will not work out that way. The UK took IMF money around 1974 and they will do it again (if the IMF has any left at that point).

The pound is collapsing. This is not a good thing. In the short term it may help with exports a tiny bit, but nowhere near enough to dig the economy out of the hole it is in. It's like saying that having terminal cancer isn't the end of the world since you will save money on food. While true the patient is in extreme denial about the reality of their situation...

That I actually believe, but I think the quality of service will go down hill a lot. Wait times will go up and the government will cover less and less.

European banks are way more overleveraged than US banks. We're talking 30:1 and in some cases as high as 50:1. When I hear the European press blame America for the problems in Europe I find it hysterical. I would love to join them and point fingers, but unfortunately it's not true. What does America have to do with Swedish banks fucking themselves due to their exposure in the Baltics? ...or Austria, Switzerland, etc, etc... Things started falling apart in the US with the subprime mess. Europe's exposure in developing markets (Eastern Europe and Asia) is a much larger problem than the US subprime mess and the problems have only now just begun to surface. Add to this all the social obligations in Europe and you are looking at a very painful reality check for the average European.

The US is fucked, but Europe is fucked in every hole.

there's a big difference between the property markets in the Us and UK. the UK is a tiny little island with a growing population, where in the case of property, demand outstrips supply. therefore i think we have another 5-10% max further drop, and then prices will start rising again. and when they start rising they'll pickup pretty quickly.

with regards too much money in the system, from what i've read (i'm no expert on this)the problem is that the libor rate is too high, and where in the past the government can control the ecconomy to some extent with interest rates, if the interest rate cuts are not being passed on because banks are paying too much interest in the first place, then the single biggest brake/stimulant to consumer spending is gone.

01-11-2009, 02:01 AM	#109
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	Healthcare should be a right because people pay taxes. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

01-11-2009, 04:08 AM	#118
After Shock Media It's coming look busy Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn". Posts: 35,299	i use oodles of health care- enough actually that it seems i work more for hospitals and doctors than i do for myself- i am positive i have seen every side and aspect of health care in america- there does seem to be a lot of odd information in this thread when it comes to american health care- one thing that is for sure is that you must know the system and the rules or you will end up on the short end- i absolutely need health care and i for one would not be to thrilled with government ran health care which is what free health care would be- ah fuck this i am sick of this pc issue and not fix suggestions yet- i will be back a bit latter after i do a system restore- __________________ [email protected] ICQ:135982156 AIM: Aftershockmed1a MSN: [email protected]

01-11-2009, 07:57 AM	#122
Donfoolio Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mars Posts: 963	Medical Science started as a service to mankind, in the beginning it was a nice and decent job and doctors even visited YOUR HOUSE! But as time went by and capitalism took over as with anything good it became a BUSINESS in stead of a service! Personally I believe it is everyones duty to help their fellow man and health care should be a right of all. But since it was perverted by money and greed, we lose. __________________ Promote SipSap escort search ICQ: 227853047

01-10-2009, 11:30 PM	#105
pocketkangaroo Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 8,452	Just to show how it's not always the insurance companies fault, I look back at my Mom's nearly one month stay in the hospital. She had doctors that none of us had ever seen billing her for visits. There was one doctor who continued to bill her for daily visits a week after she left the hospital. Other doctors would come in the room, look at her chart, then leave and bill her $130. It's almost humorous at the end of the day. They see a patient who will be there for awhile with good insurance and jump on it like vultures. Doctors from throughout the hospital were stopping in to check and bill her account. Since she was there for an extended time, they sent a psychiatrist in to make sure she wasn't getting depressed. The psychiatrist spent 30 minutes there and charged her $600. One doctor she had never heard of, never remembered meeting, and had no mention on her chart billed her $1200. It was the first time in my life I actually felt bad for the insurance companies. They were just getting raped. It did cause my Mom some issues since the insurance company refused to pay for the doctor who billed her for time she wasn't even in the hospital. Took my Mom many calls to this doctor's office and finally a formal complaint to the medical board before he removed the charges. Guess what I'm saying is that our insurance costs are high not just because these guys want to rip us off, but because doctors are fucking scumbags too.

01-11-2009, 02:20 AM	#110
roly Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 1,844	i don't know how much you pay for private health care insurance in the US, but for the average man contributing to healthcare for all probably wouldn't cost you anymore than what you pay for private. it probably would cost very big earners some more byt they can afford it.

01-11-2009, 03:15 AM	#113
Dave_Lethal Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chatsworth, CA Posts: 337	I believe that healthcare and higher education should be free to anyone who pays taxes (or is too poor to pay taxes) because your tax dollars should do something to improve your quality of life, you are forced to pay them and for most middle class people, infrastructure is the only thing they really get out of it. We are willing to spend billions on war, space exploration and ridiculous public works projects (i.e. the Alaskan Bridge to Nowhere), but services that would be beneficial to any common person are costly and are only obtained through harsh means such as student loans, which I need to start paying by way, so Sallie Mae will get off my ass)

01-11-2009, 08:12 AM	#126
buzzy Confirmed User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,606	Basically we are all filthy communists