Varius

That's true, it is a very specific niche, and to add to that it's one of their most profitable divisions right now (as a shareholder I get to listen in on WWE quarterly calls). When I last used it maybe a year ago though, it worked great for me (even with a lame costa rican connection).

I agree though for a paysite it might turn away visitors, who aren't willing to deal with it, unless all major paysites start adapting it so people come to get used to it and see it as the new standard. Easier said than done, I know

For a paysite then I'd say the best way would have to be encrypted streaming, which while it can be beaten, is less likely to be stolen by tubes who don't want the hassle, they just want to grab stuff quickly and easily. Just make sure the option you use beats the popular 'stream recorders' like Replay Media Catcher.

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wargames

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Shap

Agreed. The big thing that we deal with is that a lot of our members are collectors. They like to collect the videos and photos of the model. They have a specific organization system on their computer and acquiring and saving as much content of their favorite girls as possible is very important for them. DRM, Streaming etc deny them that satisfaction. I think every paysite is different however in our situation limiting members use of our content isn't an option.

abyss_al

people are not webmasters, do not run any sites, do not upsell any sites, have no traffic sites, etc etc etc, all they do is bitch.. clueless about what works n ideas that fail...

people who pay for porn, will always pay for porn..

people who download free porn, will always get their free porn..

if you stop screwing the surfers with false tour ads, prechex, etc... then they will continue to pay... or else you lose them to the free crowd

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Varius

That would put you in a very hard spot I agree...I wouldn't see any other options than legal, which currently, I don't see doing anything and don't see that changing anytime soon. All tube owners will hide behind the "ISP - user uploaded content" claim and even if they couldn't, chances are they would simply move their hosting/operations offshore where they'd be untouchable.

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gideongallery

http://www.mininova.org/sub/127

there is already an entire catagory on mininova dedicated to wwe matches and content

and there are like 1/2 a dozen really good private trackers dedicated to wrestling content. so it is not as flawless as he thinks it is.

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Varius

This doesn't mean it was recorded from their DRM'd 24/7 service though. Users stream WWE TV live on stuff like justin.tv, tons of people record the shows on DVR/PVR, people rip DVDs or even VHS containing the matches, etc...

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Mutt

Classified ads - there's no need now to buy an ad in a big newspaper or Buy n Sell type newspaper to sell your car, furniture, musical instruments etc. Craigslist and other sites like it work as well and are free.

Daily newspaper - who subscribes to a daily newspaper these days? A helluva lot less than 10 years ago.

Music? Digital downloading killed off the good ol' 'record store'. Itunes is replacing them but the record companies and artists are making less.

Movies? TV programs? You may be using Netflix but there are tons of people I know who download brand new in the theater movies off the Net for free.

Porn - used to have to actually go into a store and pay 10 bucks for a skin mag or rent an XXX video for 5 bucks a night rental.

Software - hundreds of places on the Net where u can get anything you want for free.

Dating services - yes in major cities there are/were real dating services - Plentyoffish and other dating sites with real women not fake profiles are there for free.

PPV TV events - if you're ok watching a Flash video stream of lesser quality you'll find it on the Net.

Other than hard goods everything can be had for free on the Net. And as for hard goods - people can find the absolute rock bottom low price and order it off the Net. Just go to stores, find the products you like - then go online and find it for 30-50% less somewhere online.

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BVF

Ok bitch, here ya go....In this thread here http://www.gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/877147-dear-playboy-com-2.html

In that thread, where I DID NOT provoke you and was just participating in the discussion, I said.

Then you come at me UNPROVOKED with

So if you don't like pricks, stop being one. And like I said before, keep your white hole shut to me and I'll keep my black mouth shut to you from now on.

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mynameisjim

You sort of missed my point. I said name a situation where content is produced, then given away for free which has been a "success".

Classified ads don't count. The newspaper example is the exact opposite, they put their content on the web and newspapers are dropping like flies. Revenue down 50% or more from a year ago. The profits generated from the web don't come close to making up that gap. The rest of the examples you used are all cases of bootlegging, not a business evolution towards free.

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Shap

He may have missed your point but he understood my point 100%

mynameisjim

Well, feel free to post examples of this evolution towards free that has worked out.

I'm not arguing this for the sake of the adult industry, in fact, I'll bet anyone a $100 the large illegal tubes will change drastically before the end of 2009.

It's just a pet peeve of mine when people jump on the free bandwagon when it really has yet to be proven yet people speak of it as gospel.

By the way, I respect you and Mutt very much, so no argument here, just debate

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Shap

I think the important thing is it never reaches free but pushes towards it. I think Bandwidth is the best example. A few years ago webmasters paid >$1000 then >$100 per mb. Then down to >$50 then $30 and now most people are <$10.

Shap

Same goes for memory and hard drive space.

DeanCapture

Here's the thing - nothing I said there wasn't true. If you don't want people mentioning that you shoot crack whores, then stop shooting them. What it takes to shoot your content and what it takes to shoot my content is 180 degrees from each other. I thought your comments in that thread were a joke. It's like comparing oranges to apples. The skills that it takes to edit your content -vs- what it takes to edit content for a magazine like Playboy are completely different. If you can't see that...then all the booze & weed is starting to get to ya' man....seriously!

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DeanCapture

Hell man, even YOU call them crack whores....

Link

Link

Link

So let me get this right....you shoot crack ho's, you agree that you shoot crack ho's, you even call them crack ho's...but you get upset with me when I call them crack ho's? Am I missing something here?

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Mutt

i kinda did miss your point - this industry can NOT be profitable giving away the content for free and relying on ad and other revenue to make up the cost of producing/purchasing the content and then into the black.

i see what's going on - i see the changes at Pornhub and other tubes. Pornhub is where it is today, millions of viewers a day, for one reason - content theft. They can go 'premium' now, they can get rid of every stolen/copyright infringing video on that site and it won't change the fact they did it all on the backs of hundreds of other copyright owners. They are vermin, I don't care how clever they are, I don't care how successful they are. They led the charge into this shit and every last webmaster can look at them and say 'you fucked me over, you took food out of my kids mouth, you cost me business that I will never recover'.

BigTits.com from what I see is a legit tube site itself, short clips mostly, longer scenes look like crappy DVD content i'm sure they've licensed or bought - I do see them trading traffic with Pornhub.

DVD licensors who allow for complete scenes to be used on free tube sites are just complete idiots - but they did it to themselves before with AVS, FHG's so it's not surprising they're dropping their pants to get ass raped again.

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BVF

I'm not going to argue with you over and over again....I don't give a fuck if you call them crack ho's.....The point is that a crack ho's ass doesn't have any different angles on it than a glam babe...and the surfer still needs to look at an ass to get horny, whether or not it's crack hoes or glam....

This is because I'm a PORNOGRAPHER first and a photographer second....You are the other way around....

Your drivel now tires me.

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jay23

DRM is dead in Adult. Trust me, I sold DRM system for 7 years in Adult.

Jay
objectcube.com

DeanCapture

Yes...I agree!

Cheers!

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TheDoc

It sounds like you need to educate your members. First, you asked them probably about streaming flash or something like that, members don't have a clue what that is.

But if you took a movie and put it into a kick ass player like videobox has, you would get a very different response from your members. Just like HD doesn't really attract more people, but the myth goes on.

Streaming flash is basic protection, it works to stop general theft. And with better DRM, members can still download, view forever, stream without bulky software.

Music and Movie DRM is different. you buy a DVD or CD or Mp3, you own it, it really is yours. You can legally copy it to cd, mp3 player, put on a box.. movies, software, backups, all that is legal. So... when you add DRM to this, you take away something that is mine.

When you buy a membership to a porn site, you buy a subscription to access content, not own anything. Even if you can download it, the person doesn't own it. If they did they could resell it, so you need to make a choice.

Why refuse to look at the 100's of possible solutions with the answer, DRM isn't an option? You might as well close your doors and go out of business if you think you will be able to continue on with how things are.

And that isn't fully in reference to piracy or drm.

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DamianJ

I agree with you 100% about DRM, but not your 99% figure.

I have never seen nor heard of DRM that is not crackable. 100% of things can and have been cracked wide open.

TheDoc

DRM isn't dead for the people successfully using it... It's dead for you because of your business methods....

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TheDoc

If you have no DRM then it's 100% cracked and stolen all the time, without question.. you will NEVER stop from being pirated.

If you have DRM, 99.9% of piracy is stopped from members and people that don't know they are pirating. So now you only have to worry about .1% rather than the for sure 100%.

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AaronM

None of my members complain about DRM. If they do, so what? Let them go elsewhere and steal somebody else's content.

If everybody had used a DRM type system then we would not be facing the problems we are facing today. Instead, people said: "Oh, the poor members don't like it." So it was tossed to the side by most.

These days members don't like being members at all. They prefer to go to the tube sites and such. If you want to deliver everything that your members want, why don't you just stop charging? Doesn't make any sense right? Neither does letting them steal your content because you are afraid of losing a few members. That's called greed and in the long run, it has and will continue to hurt our industry.

DRM is the way to go. I'm sure there will be better ways in the future but for now, DRM is it. If you are not using it then you are contributing to the problem and not the solution.

wheat

I'm not sure I'd dismiss WWE as niche, their website (wwe.com) has a sub-500 Alexa and they have their three free TV shows with a 1 million+ audience every week.

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johnuno11

I've already said this shit already.

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F-U-Jimmy

A lawsuit in neither simple or expedient

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GregE

This is all academic isn't it when all it takes is for a couple of big tubes to break your code and then let anyone, and everyone, download your shit for free?

Or am I missing something here?

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AaronM

Please stop posting common sense...This is GFY.

Mutt

Videobox has a streaming Flash video player PLUS Windows Media Video files in three different sizes. The members of Videobox preview the scenes using the Flash player and then save their favorite scenes to their hard drives. If Videobox took away the downloadable files there would be a member rebellion - "I'm not paying for this shit if I can't save anything - I can get streaming videos for free all day long at Tube8.com!'

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GregE

I think those numbers are a little optimistic, but even if they're not, you still have a problem.

Like I said before, all it takes is for a couple of big tubes to break your code and then let everyone download your shit for free.

Once that happens your member's content is all over the web.

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TheDoc

Then why hasn't torrents and tubes cracked VOD that have 30k-50k full DVD's?

Tubes don't get your movies from the member areas, that's crazy talk. They don't put near that much attention into you as you think. They do get the movies from forums and torrents, and most of those are uploaded from your members.

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TheDoc

Of course the members would rebell, they pitch the members on the download feature but they keep them with the streaming feature... that player they have is bad ass, who in hell would ever want to download a crappy video when I can start/stream/loop, jump, all types of crap, the same movie all on-demand..

And that's why they keep the members.. that's why they spent so much time and money on making the player out of this world.

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F-U-Jimmy

Ok so what is the name of a modern, efficient, DRM company

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Shap

I run Twistys to please our members. I think I'm doing a pretty good job at it. We rank near the top in member's area satisfaction, member's retention, and paysite size. I don't know what more I could do. Doing anything that goes against those 3 things is not in my best interest.

Shap

I disagree. The people that pay for porn, and especially those on VideoBox and Twistys, are collectors as well as consumers. A high % of our members want the hard version of the content. Whether it is to save for later or for viewing on another media (ie TV). VideoBox and Twistys do not attract super fetish people. We attract a different type of member and if VideoBox removed downloads guess what VideosZ and a number of their competitors would pick up all the members that would leave VideoBox because of that.

Everybody's business is different and has different issues. I can't speak for what would be best for AaronM just like he really can't speak for what is best for Twistys. At the end of the day the member decides with their purchasing power and the results from that speak for themselves. That is why I keep asking for one Top Tier Paysite that uses DRM. The results don't lie. The surfers vote with their $$$ anybody who wants to ignore that might as well stop calling themselves a businessman. I'm in this to make $$$. The way we run things we make $$$.

Lamis

You are wrong.

TORRENTS, REPRESENT AT LEAST 80% of the online porn Illegal downloads, via azureus, and file sharing via RapidShare, depositfiles, etc.

Tubes are NOTHING when you compare them with TORRENTS and File Sharing via forums. I repeat, Tubes are nothing in comparisson to Torrents and File Sharing. More than 90% of the webmasters have the inverse picture there and subestimate torrents and rapidshare links via forums.. And over estimate tubies.

Since most people in the biz have no fucking idea about this, then we are FAR AWAY to even TRY to solve the problem.

Shap

Take a look at these sites
VideosZ
VideoBox
RealityKings
BangBros
NaughtyAmerica
Karups
Atk

They all follow a very similar business model. It's funny because every person PRO Drm in this thread thinks completely different from every owner of those sites. I'm not talking about DRM specifically but the general mentality and thought process regarding members. The important thing to remember is the owners of all those sites make waaaaaaaaay more money than all the PRO Drm people make. I'm not trying to be a dick I'm just stating the facts. Those sites all have very similar business models and it's a proven winner. That should tell you something about what members want.

TheDoc

Who cares if they want to collect it? Let them go collect it on another site, pirate it, then come back to yours for the good shit.

You want to run a business that makes everyone happy but you..

Topbucks videos can't be downloaded.. they aren't DRM protected so much, but you aren't running into collect anything. Old DRM that all the paysites tested, didn't work. New DRM that the majority of VOD sites use, works like a champ and pisses nobody off.

Surfers buy what you tell them they are getting. If you have 10 videos on your tour, the member doesn't expect 30. If your tour has flash streams and you don't say the movies can be downloaded, then you won't get complaints. They pay either way, drm or not, and always have.

To me, you aren't looking for solutions.. Have you tried not allowing downloads to new members, but giving them a kick ass flash player option instead?

Or a notice in the members area that asks the members to not share/upload the movies they collect.

You are the master of building and testing.. welp, this is the next step.

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TheDoc

VideosZ
VideoBox
RealityKings
BangBros

All advertise on tubes/piracy sites, and vz and vb have whitelabels setup with several of them pulling down 50-100 sales a day from a text link in a menu.

The difference between these guys and the others you listed, even yourself. Is they understand what it means to get eye balls on your content/site. When it comes to ND/BB, they understand it more than anyone.

They still do more traffic than anyone, and they are the most pirated sites online. The most password leaks, the most everything, they ignore webmasters and even members.. They break every rule that everyone in here said you must do..... And yet, still #1...

For them, DRM isn't needed... Eyeballs are.

For people that think piracy is taking away from them, if they feel it does.. then DRM is for you.


My opionion though, you need to pirate your shit more, upload it on video networks, get yourself on social networks, create fan bases all over the world, and get eyeballs on your shit. Get yourself on forums you aren't on, get people talking about you, for you..

But, that's not the subject of this post..

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shunga

That's the natural market progression of reducing costs and passing it on to pricing to deliver more customers for that product. It's another thing to give that product away and sell a lower value item on the back of that, which is essentially the free models plan. IMO that makes as much sense as sub prime mortgages.

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Twistys Tim

From what I understand, Apple is dropping DRM from certain (older) iTunes downloads, as its presence is affecting sales.

I sell porn, and I am also a surfer -- and I would never join a site I couldn't download and keep forever the content on that site. I am certain there are more people who think like me, than who think differently.

Gotta give your customers what they want, or someone else will and they will be their customers.

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tony286

you know I respect you but I cant see them pulling 50 to 100 sign ups a day on a tube full of free full scenes. What is the motivation?

mynameisjim

True, but those are commodity like items in which the cost to produce/provide those items has also decreased while demand has gone up. The price to produce A-list quality music, movies, or porn, has not substantially decreased.

Instead, the boneheads in this industry kept production costs the same but devalued the product by giving it away free. I'm not an MBA but I believe that's the opposite of what a successful business does.

I think my point is that just because a delivery model has evolved to provide free distribution doesn't mean a true free business model can follow. If someone invented a magic key that opened and started any car, would that mean the auto industry is moving towards free?

But I guess the thread is about DRM and streaming now

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AaronM

But doing nothing is?

jay23

Every single DRM system out their can be broken. If you have a site that you think has some kind of super duper DRM that can be broken post a link and I will have that video on a Tube site in no time.

I was making money selling DRM and now I am telling people not to use it, I must be crazy.

Jay

Helix

You are correct about the collectors. When I was working with Earl Miller I witnessed this first hand. Earl has an amazing amount of loyal, rebilling members that were collectors and they would definitely get upset and vocal about any format change. I had never seen that before.

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AaronM

And from what I've heard from some of those sites is that they are losing a lot of members due to economy and content theft.

Meanwhile...I've heard some brilliant ideas from people on new technologies to combat this......But everybody seems to be missing one component or another to complete their projects.

Makes you wonder who is going to step to the plate and invest in a real solution. Could be some big money made with a service that works and doesn't piss off the members.

JayAllan

I don?t think that DRM-ing everything is the answer, but another option would be to use it on some of your elite product. You dont need to protect everything. The idea is to maintain your membership base without pissing them off. Let?s say you are Twistys for example and you have Stephen Hicks shoot a very high end glamour set on Bambi X. You go with a higher than usual production value, and you also have an outstanding HD Video to go with it. You call the whole Bambi project a ?bonus? and DRM it all. Offer it in such a way that it is both an extra and is better quality, but educate the surfers that you have to protect that specific content due to its obvious higher value. Surfers seeking out quality should understand this even better. Now you have an additional reason to stay a member of Twistys. Sure you can get a lot of their other (non DRM) content from the tubes but not their best stuff.

DRM is not going to be tolerated by your surfers on lower end stuff, because there will always be a competitor than is willing to undercut you and offer it without. But if your quality is better and exclusive, then they will not be able to do that (legally). You also have the added bonus of having a much better (c) infringement case in court if you had to go that route.

This would not work for every webmaster. Most adult webmasters tend to always go for the lowest possible common denominator. There will always be a lot of competition for the bottom end, but few can compete with the high end. You will surely sell more Honda?s than Ferrari?s, but there will always be a Ferrari market.