Fuck do i hate CSS - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

MetaMan · 01-18-2009, 06:00 PM

maybe stop being such a cheap ass and hire a designer who knows how to do CSS properly?

Deej · 01-18-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

Do not know why you get on my case I looked at most youir stuff you still use tables big time. Please step off my cock.

I got no idea why you goto hunt and pester me and every shit thing I say...

Cant you just put me on ignore for fucks sakes?

how many times do I have to say

I USE TABLES EVERY DAY - CSS IS JUST SUPERIOR TO TABLES!!!!

ALTHOUGH CSS IS SUPERIOR TO TABLES - YOU CAN STILL USE THEM JUST FINE IN MOST CASES.

HOWEVER IF YOU WOULD LIE TO STEP IT UP AND BROADEN YOUR HORIZON, CLIENTELE AND DYNAMIC CAPABILTIES OF ANY AND OR ALL WEBSITES - USE CSS WHERE NECESSARY!!!!

JD · 01-18-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

how many times do I have to say

you're better off kicking yourself in the nuts a few times man. just give up....

Voodoo · 01-18-2009, 06:08 PM

I like to style my CSS with tables.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-18-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deej

how many times do i have to say

however if you would lie to step it up and broaden your horizon, clientele and dynamic capabilties of any and or all websites - use css where necessary!!!!

i do use css where necessary you fucking ignorant bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!

JamesK · 01-18-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo

I like to style my CSS with tables.

that will actually be possible soon

Deej · 01-18-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

i do use css where necessary you fucking ignorant bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said you didnt... I said your theories of CSS are wrong...

whos really the one name calling and ignorant about what they are spouting off about again?

01-18-2009, 09:36 PM

Ugh, I give up, good luck Deej. May the force be with you.

BSleazy · 01-18-2009, 11:18 PM

Doesn't CSS make it easy for large sites to make one minor change and have it automatically apply to 100's or 1000's of pages on a site?

Deej · 01-18-2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCyber

Doesn't CSS make it easy for large sites to make one minor change and have it automatically apply to 100's or 1000's of pages on a site?

yes - one of the many advantages

add some php includes for say headers or footers and youre golden... easy maintenance

munki · 01-18-2009, 11:56 PM

This thread delivers...ish

Tempest · 01-19-2009, 12:13 AM

CSS IS better for SEO IF you know what you're doing. A site layout done with a table CAN be just as effective in SEO IF you know how the spiders handle tables.

All the other stuff is just crap and misleading at best. eg. a typical spreadsheet type display of data using purely CSS will end up with far more on page code than using a table WITH CSS. Using a table without CSS would be the worst.. Bottom line, use both intelligently.

Deej · 01-19-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempest

CSS IS better for SEO IF you know what you're doing. A site layout done with a table CAN be just as effective in SEO IF you know how the spiders handle tables.

All the other stuff is just crap and misleading at best. eg. a typical spreadsheet type display of data using purely CSS will end up with far more on page code than using a table WITH CSS. Using a table without CSS would be the worst.. Bottom line, use both intelligently.

Another solid statement...

iMind · 01-19-2009, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempest

All the other stuff is just crap and misleading at best. eg. a typical spreadsheet type display of data using purely CSS will end up with far more on page code than using a table WITH CSS. Using a table without CSS would be the worst.. Bottom line, use both intelligently.

sure, if you have a designer that doesn't know what he's doing..
A good CSS designer can create a hella complicated design in just a few lines of code with CSS

I'm not sure what kinda CSS you've seen, but CSS layouts always yield less code if done correctly.. probably 20% of the code of a tabled design

Code:

<div id="header"></div>
<div class="container">
<div id="left"></div>
<div id="right"></div>
<div class="clear"></div>
</div>
<div id="Footer"></div>


Compare that, to the tabled example below - same layout 


<table width="95%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
  <tr>
    <td colspan="2"></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td width="20%"></td>
    <td width="80%"></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td colspan="2">&nbsp;</td>
  </tr>
</table>

that's as basic as it gets

you can imagine how the tabled layout would multiply in a more complicated case

tranza · 01-19-2009, 06:26 AM

You have to be pacient with Css sometimes...

fris · 01-19-2009, 06:30 AM

I remember converting a table design that was 1300+ lines, to pure css turned out to be 65 lines in css

leek · 01-19-2009, 07:52 AM

This argument is so 1998.

Ethersync · 01-19-2009, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

OH god...
Here we go again.

No...
CSS does not make SEO any better. Thats such an Internet fallacy.
Search Engines dismiss any mark-up it finds whether it is Tabled or CSS.
It makes no fucking difference.

I am not going to get into why or how...
But suffice to say the claim that CSS is SEO friendly is pure bullshit.

It is also safe to say you are not the first guy to get trashed by a CSS designer

I have a good friend who has netted 8 figures with mainstream SEO related projects. He tells me it is important to use CSS so you can keep your content at the top. Who am I going to believe? An out of work designer who does $1 banner ads or very successful, and very wealthy, friend who is an expert in the field? 'nuff said...

leek · 01-19-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

I have a good friend who has netted 8 figures with mainstream SEO related projects. He tells me it is important to use CSS so you can keep your content at the top. Who am I going to believe? An out of work designer who does $1 banner ads or very successful, and very wealthy, friend who is an expert in the field? 'nuff said...

CSS does not have ANY affect on SEO. You and your friend are mistaken.

What you are referring to is valid/proper use of HTML tags for semantic purposes. Google and other search engines care about your H tags, strong, em, p, etc. They don't care about whether your text is blue or green. Or whether your DIV is 50px wide.

The reason CSS helps is because you can use all of these tags while still maintaining the look and feel of the design of your page.

And by the way - you made yourself look like a complete tool with this quoted response.

Ethersync · 01-19-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

CSS does not have ANY affect on SEO. You and your friend are mistaken.

What you are referring to is valid/proper use of HTML tags for semantic purposes. Google and other search engines care about your H tags, strong, em, p, etc. They don't care about whether your text is blue or green. Or whether your DIV is 50px wide.

The reason CSS helps is because you can use all of these tags while still maintaining the look and feel of the design of your page.

And by the way - you made yourself look like a complete tool with this quoted response.

I made myself look like a tool by going with what one of the top mainstream seo guys says vs. Alien and you? That's funny.

leek · 01-19-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

I made myself look like a tool by going with what one of the top mainstream seo guys says vs. Alien and you? That's funny.

If this person even exists, you misunderstood what he was trying to say.

Deej · 01-19-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

CSS does not have ANY affect on SEO. You and your friend are mistaken.

What you are referring to is valid/proper use of HTML tags for semantic purposes. Google and other search engines care about your H tags, strong, em, p, etc. They don't care about whether your text is blue or green. Or whether your DIV is 50px wide.

The reason CSS helps is because you can use all of these tags while still maintaining the look and feel of the design of your page.

And by the way - you made yourself look like a complete tool with this quoted response.

Why is it people think css is strictly divisions and text manipulation?

Let me guess, now i could be wrong, but going on a limb here... Do you use css all the time? Have you tried to form any SEO campaigns through a well layed out css based site?

If so, youre not doing it right if you have come to this conclusion... If not, then well, you dont know what youre talking about.

of course unless youre getting extremely technical and saying "the css code itself dosnt effect SEO" - well sure it dosnt, it dosnt even read it... But how the css lays out your info and link placement and such... that is all SEO ... which CAN be magnified through CSS...

Bottom line... CSS is beneficial to use when considering SEO... can you do it without, sure... But CSS will help

besides SEO... its easy maintenance... Cant beat that

StuartD · 01-19-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

Google and other search engines care about your H tags, strong, em, p, etc. They don't care about whether your text is blue or green. Or whether your DIV is 50px wide.

This is the only part of your post which is correct

jwerd · 01-19-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman!

not the shit im trying to edit.

if it was tabled i would have 1 table with 3 collums i would create another row and copy the data from first 3 to second 3 edit the text and links and i would be done in 5 min's

with css i have no fucking idea how to do this crap and i gave up after 5 min's of fucking around with it.

In the end css is great for keeping designers busy and me wasting $$$$ to get shit edited i could do myself before css.

Fuck CSS

I still have a bit of trouble with some complex CSS but basic stuf I get. One tool that helps me understand what class a part of my layout belongs to within the css document is Firebug. You can literally roll over each element on your page and it will go directly to the html / css code respectively.

http://getfirebug.com/

Ethersync · 01-19-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

If this person even exists, you misunderstood what he was trying to say.

He exists and it was very clear what he was saying. Obviously, that is one of many reasons to use CSS and many other factors come into play with SEO.

Look kid. You do what you want with your sites, if you even have any. I could care less. My point is I tend to listen to successful friends instead of mentally unstable and broke board personalities like Alien.

leek · 01-19-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

of course unless youre getting extremely technical and saying "the css code itself dosnt effect SEO" - well sure it dosnt, it dosnt even read it... But how the css lays out your info and link placement and such... that is all SEO ... which CAN be magnified through CSS...

So... then you agree? That was the point of my argument. You can say "technically" if you want, but CSS (the technology) doesn't have any benefit on SEO.

I don't think you understood the point of my post. I do only CSS based designs, tables are for tabular data. I am not downplaying the importance of CSS, but using it for the sole purpose to improve SEO is ridiculous and just plain wrong. Re-read my post: valid and standards compliant HTML, proper use of tags for semantic purposes, clean/uncluttered markup - all of this is what is important for SEO, not CSS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StuartD

This is the only part of your post which is correct

[citation needed]

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-19-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

He exists and it was very clear what he was saying. Obviously, that is one of many reasons to use CSS and many other factors come into play with SEO.

Look kid. You do what you want with your sites, if you even have any. I could care less. My point is I tend to listen to successful friends instead of mentally unstable and broke board personalities like Alien.

Dude I never gave you any reason whats so ever to dislike me EVER! I've never said shit about you EVER.
After two days of you saying hateful stupid shit on me now ya earned a reason.
I do think you are an idiot. Sorry.

Don't get mad, I do not like alot of people around here.

leek · 01-19-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

He exists and it was very clear what he was saying. Obviously, that is one of many reasons to use CSS and many other factors come into play with SEO.

Look kid. You do what you want with your sites, if you even have any. I could care less. My point is I tend to listen to successful friends instead of mentally unstable and broke board personalities like Alien.

361 characters and you said absolutely nothing.

BSleazy · 01-19-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

yes - one of the many advantages

add some php includes for say headers or footers and youre golden... easy maintenance

Ya I know this. I was just making more of a statement than a question

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-19-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

So... then you agree? That was the point of my argument. You can say "technically" if you want, but CSS (the technology) doesn't have any benefit on SEO.

I don't think you understood the point of my post. I do only CSS based designs, tables are for tabular data. I am not downplaying the importance of CSS, but using it for the sole purpose to improve SEO is ridiculous and just plain wrong. Re-read my post: valid and standards compliant HTML, proper use of tags for semantic purposes, clean/uncluttered markup - all of this is what is important for SEO, not CSS.

[citation needed]

Dude...
Don't bother trying to explaine the whole CSS/Table thing.

Right now CSS is an excellent sales pitch and the whole SEO/CSS thing is very important to the sales pitch these days.

I Initially came out and said CSS /Table makes no difference to SE's. Horrible code is horrible code I linked a few articals and showed that SE spiders read the text of a website, not the mark up. SOmehow my information was takin as an afront to all that is sacred to these punks that aspire to dissect every fucken letter I type.

Do not try and be reasonable it's viewed as a weakness to these pigs...

Ethersync · 01-19-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

Dude I never gave you any reason whats so ever to dislike me EVER! I've never said shit about you EVER.
After two days of you saying hateful stupid shit on me now ya earned a reason.
I do think you are an idiot. Sorry.

Don't get mad, I do not like alot of people around here.

I had no problem with you before today. I found you entertaining and hoped you would get your life turned around. After I read your post regarding the logo, and other work, I was going to send you, well, then it became pretty clear you're just self destructive, rabid cunt.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-19-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethersync

I had no problem with you before today. I found you entertaining and hoped you would get your life turned around. After I read your post regarding the logo, and other work, I was going to send you, well, then it became pretty clear you're just self destructive, rabid cunt.

FUck you kiddie...
I gave you a reason to dislike me now after two days of your shit talk.
I called you an idiot. You are an idiot.

Byeeeee!

JamesK · 01-19-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

showed that SE spiders read the text of a website, not the mark up

That's exactly why it's good for SEO. You can put objects on a different position with CSS, so the surfer gets to see it differently than the search engines. But I guess that's too hard for you to understand.

Good luck with your $1 banner design business

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-19-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesK

That's exactly why it's good for SEO. You can put objects on a different position with CSS, so the surfer gets to see it differently than the search engines. But I guess that's too hard for you to understand.

Good luck with your $1 banner design business

But thats not the catch all be all.

The focus of the website is content. You want to play grey hat and use CSS to fake a H1 as mark up content thats fine... Sure that'll work but eventually the SE's will adapt as they appearently are doing now to recind the order structure of pages.

DOing such may help in ranking ( for now ) but its not the definer where the ranking is placed as to the why or how. If you you use base HTML no CSS and use Headers properly you will get the same results and yes you can structure a base HTML Non CSS page to present information in an order to SE's that would make no difference.

Code your pages good and proper and it will always get you better results.

Fact: Content is King not structure.

Deej · 01-19-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

So... then you agree? That was the point of my argument. You can say "technically" if you want, but CSS (the technology) doesn't have any benefit on SEO.

yes it does... when you use it... you can modify the layout of your site while keeping it an aesthetically pleasing look and easily navigable to the surfer - another benefit is making dynamic navigation which is very important. But making that navigation appear above your info while in actuality it is on the bottom within the code...

All of this IS SEO beneficial...

Quote:

I don't think you understood the point of my post. I do only CSS based designs, tables are for tabular data. I am not downplaying the importance of CSS, but using it for the sole purpose to improve SEO is ridiculous and just plain wrong. Re-read my post: valid and standards compliant HTML, proper use of tags for semantic purposes, clean/uncluttered markup - all of this is what is important for SEO, not CSS.

You are correct in the the valid HTML and what not... It is more important than using css... BUT CSS can and WILL (if done right, and you are not outdone by other sites) help your seo presence...

leek · 01-19-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesK

That's exactly why it's good for SEO. You can put objects on a different position with CSS, so the surfer gets to see it differently than the search engines. But I guess that's too hard for you to understand.

Good luck with your $1 banner design business

Google already has an algorithm in place to detect text that is hidden and moved via CSS. Their official statement is that they have not removed any sites from the SERPs for this, yet.

Deej · 01-19-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

But thats not the catch all be all.

The focus of the website is content. You want to play grey hat and use CSS to fake a H1 as mark up content thats fine... Sure that'll work but eventually the SE's will adapt as they appearently are doing now to recind the order structure of pages.

DOing such may help in ranking ( for now ) but its not the definer where the ranking is placed as to the why or how. If you you use base HTML no CSS and use Headers properly you will get the same results and yes you can structure a base HTML Non CSS page to present information in an order to SE's that would make no difference.

Code your pages good and proper and it will always get you better results.

Fact: Content is King not structure.

this is a great way to SEO it up...

CSS added to it will up the ante ... and most likely make it easier to navigate for the surfer which is only money in the bank...

no one sayd you cant get good SEO without CSS>.. but CSS is an advantage to be taken...

Seriously... Alien... its good...

Im not saying its the only tool to use...

It effects way more than text and divisions...

Anyone can do whatever they want... But you cannot factually downplay to efficiency of CSS

Deej · 01-19-2009, 02:37 PM

Also - Id liek to add...

When i use CSS to manipulate placement of divisions or beneficial tags... I keep in mind the legitimacy of my content and methods... someone said greyhat... I myself dont stray too far from what is basic HTML acceptance... I dont hide words and I dont do anything screwy... I simply move links and info to where they will benefit my relevance.

There is a layout that google and other SEs like... a lot of it goes back to KISS...

this goes with anyone's SEO methods... keep it real, bend the light is all... Make it extremely relevant, easier for the surfer to get around while keeping the spiders well fed...

screw it all... whoever donst think CSS is helpful... screw you... keep on with your ways... Ill stick to mine... I dont even know why I try to show people helpful hints and beneficial methods...

leek · 01-19-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

screw it all... whoever donst think CSS is helpful... screw you... keep on with your ways... Ill stick to mine... I dont even know why I try to show people helpful hints and beneficial methods...

Not one person in this whole thread said that CSS isn't insanely useful. You're missing its purpose, however. CSS is used to describe PRESENTATION for markup.

You can't say CSS is important for SEO because tables are bad for it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Deej · 01-19-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

Not one person in this whole thread said that CSS isn't insanely useful. You're missing its purpose, however. CSS is used to describe PRESENTATION for markup.

You can't say CSS is important for SEO because tables are bad for it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

i think im arguing more than one argument..

css IS superior to tables - whether they are necessary to use or not...

css IS SEO beneficial...

That is all I have babbled on about...

leek · 01-19-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

css IS SEO beneficial...

Can you back up this statement without using one the following [invalid] examples?

Uncluttered HTML
Text positioning
Using semantic markup

01-19-2009, 02:56 PM

The level of retardation is astounding in this thread.

Let me break it down for you tard yard big boys.

<div id="content">some content here</div>
<div id="navigation">navigation menu here</div>
<div id="footer">footer stuff here</div>

Using proper CSS you can make that look like navigation on the left, content in the middle, and footer at the bottom.

Now lets try to do that exact same look with tables

<table>
<tr>
<td>navigation</td>
<td>content area</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>footer stuff</td>
</tr>
</table>

Oh look, the source code shows the navigation first, which means the search engines use it's stuff before it gets to your content, and if google index's say 100kb that means a good portion of your index is just your navigation, the shit you REALLY don't care if the surfer sees.

Does that help you mentally challenged people who don't understand proper CSS/DIV use and SEO, truely understand why it's better to use?

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-19-2009, 02:59 PM

One thing though none of you really paid attention to in this thread is something I would agree on. CSS is awesome for setting out different themes and design elements for several sites at once while displaying the same content accross them all.

THere are alot of advantages to CSS in many ways but at the same time there are hardly any developer tools for it. You goto have a nice assortment of class libraries and collect veritable elements and collect a steady hand of premade layout concepts to to ease the work flow.

Meaning you goto pretty much code the shit by hand which interrupts work flow immensely especially when setting out on a new layout and having to debug every portion of it. Sure you can be a designer and stick to a couple base templates in CSS and fake your way through it but again from what I know many clients want different things different layouts.
The methods required at current are hardly conducive to the work flow of a production.

Again no developer tools, nothing like DreamWeaver to streamline the work flow in a way that is more productive and timely.

I am dabbling with CSS and so far from what I gather it is appearently a series of work arounds and compatibility issues. I visit CSS tutorial sites and they have massive display failures and make excuses on the pages for Opera, FireFox and especially IE as to why the pages are not displaying properly for the tutorial pieces from Nav set ups to layouts while listing the faults of the CSS layout itself and its compatibility issues.

Back to Work Flow:
I layout a design in Photoshop and cut it up place the information in tables then set out to optimise the html, make way for text and so forth. I use DreamWeaver to intuitively take my graphical elements and view it as the page design comes together.

With CSS you can do a layout with Photoshop ( Kinda ) but good luck getting things to order out reliably the way it does when using table based layout elements unless of course you have a preset CSS layout already established otherwise you are going to have to recode by hand the entire thing creating custom tags and hoping the positioning is accurate.

Sorry positioning is not accurate whats so ever when it comes to CSS. It simply IS not accurate or reliable when it comes to layout control.

I just think CSS is not ready for prime time once again pointing to the lacking of proper development tools while having excessive failures in cross browser compatibility. If you are an SEO freak sure CSS can make your life easier as you can extend your content into veritiable websites using different CSS styles sure it might theoretically help in SEO in ordering the content but I wouldnt count on it as a fail safe road to top SEO results just because the content was ordered properly using CSS. If you order content properly on standard HTML you will get the same results. Content is KING bottom line there. Use valid code and you will get great results whether its in CSS or not.

I do plan on moving to CSS though and I am working with it in my off time, which I happen to have alot of right now, trust me you people will be the first to know if I ever arrive to the conclusion that CSS is better for design but right now I do not think so.

Anyways I am so done with this thread, so done with this topic...

SO done with it.

leek · 01-19-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killswitch

The level of retardation is astounding in this thread.

Let me break it down for you tard yard big boys.

<div id="content">some content here</div>
<div id="navigation">navigation menu here</div>
<div id="footer">footer stuff here</div>

Using proper CSS you can make that look like navigation on the left, content in the middle, and footer at the bottom.

Now lets try to do that exact same look with tables

<table>
<tr>
<td>navigation</td>
<td>content area</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>footer stuff</td>
</tr>
</table>

Oh look, the source code shows the navigation first, which means the search engines use it's stuff before it gets to your content, and if google index's say 100kb that means a good portion of your index is just your navigation, the shit you REALLY don't care if the surfer sees.

Does that help you mentally challenged people who don't understand proper CSS/DIV use and SEO, truely understand why it's better to use?

Thank you. You just proved my point. What you have just described is PROPER USE OF MARKUP TAGS for SEO benefit. The only use for CSS in your example is to style this markup (which has no SEO benefit).

You are confusing what is having a benefit and what is not.

Uncluttered markup IS AN SEO benefit. But you can do this WITHOUT CSS! CSS just makes life easier. CSS does not directly correlate to any SEO benefit. It does indirectly increase SEO by allowing you use proper markup.

leek · 01-19-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

Again no developer tools, nothing like DreamWeaver to streamline the work flow in a way that is more productive and timely.

This is one thing I am going to have to disagree with you on.

If you're looking for some kind of CSS IDE, try TopStyle.

It sounds like you are new to CSS and it has become aggrevating (which it can be). If this is the case, I urge you to check out some helpful CSS frameworks that will make your life easier:

Blueprint CSS
YAML
(there are many more, Google "css framework")

Keep in mind that these are not semantically "correct", but they are nice to use in the design stage to make life easier/quicker.

StuartD · 01-19-2009, 03:06 PM

As I said in the other thread, using tables is like designing in Photoshop in grids where as using css is like using Photoshop with layers.

Do you design square by square in Photoshop or in layers?

Deej · 01-19-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

Can you back up this statement without using one the following [invalid] examples?

Uncluttered HTML
Text positioning
Using semantic markup

sure..

Link positioning
manipulating semantic markup

those are the two main ones...

i think what it boils down to is making it algorithm friendly all while making it normal looking and aesthetically pleasing to the surfer... make it informative, but also make them love your site...

The more relevant and simple it is, the better the SEO... organically...

Now the way 'I' feel.. surfers search for things, they click on the first 1 maybe 3 links.. if seo is done right they should find what they want within those sites...

say there is site A and site B... A is very simple, white, just text n links and h1 tags...Informative sure, but most of the navigation is at the bottom... or on the side...

now site B has all the same info and linking to the same people... yet its aesthetically pleasing to the surfer, all navigation is above and below and all the right links are in their places whether its where it actually is in the code or not... the surfer can navigate with such ease he found everything he needs AND knows exactly where to find it...

Im not saying this is every case...

But it IS a valid argument... plain html SEO can pull you results but did you have the navigation to whatever it is youre referring above the fold?

I like to make sure... my links are where they need to be for the surfer to find easily AND where the spider would like to see them...

Ive done my campaigns and research on it first hand... I know my results... Not only do i like to SEO things, but i like to sell what Im SEOing...

maybe Im arguing the wrong point, maybe im arguing Seo mixed with marketing... but whoever is arguing my point without seeing what Im trying to say is just simply trying to argue...

its lunch time and Ive have spent too much time aside from my actual work in these CSS threads...

Fuck it... I dont even care...

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-19-2009, 03:06 PM

<table>
<tr>
<td>navigation</td>
<td>content area</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>footer stuff</td>
</tr>
</table>

Or...

<table>
<tr>
<td>Content Area</td><TD>Navigation</TD>
</tr>
<tr rowspan=2>
<td>footer stuff</td>
</tr>
</table>

Simplify the order of content with good structure along those lines.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-19-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leek

This is one thing I am going to have to disagree with you on.

If you're looking for some kind of CSS IDE, try TopStyle.

It sounds like you are new to CSS and it has become aggrevating (which it can be). If this is the case, I urge you to check out some helpful CSS frameworks that will make your life easier:

Blueprint CSS
YAML
(there are many more, Google "css framework")

Keep in mind that these are not semantically "correct", but they are nice to use in the design stage to make life easier/quicker.

I will look into those thank you

And yes CSS is pissing me way the fuck off lately. GFY aint nothing compared to the frustration I am having in learning CSS by hand code without shit to use as a basis for a work flow.

I've copied templates dissected the shit, grabbed up a number of different libraries I can use and doing it all by hand at this time. Its a royal fuck in the ass.

leek · 01-19-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

its lunch time and Ive have spent too much time aside from my actual work in these CSS threads...

Your argument is based upon valid uses of CSS (aesthetics), however - aesthetics does not equate to proper SEO. Your CSS positioning (to place content higher in the markup, not not so visually) will eventually be penalized so I will not consider this a valid point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

<table>
<tr>
<td>navigation</td>
<td>content area</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>footer stuff</td>
</tr>
</table>

Or...

<table>
<tr>
<td>Content Area</td><TD>Navigation</TD>
</tr>
<tr rowspan=2>
<td>footer stuff</td>
</tr>
</table>

Simplify the order of content with good structure along those lines.

If you want to stick with up to date standards, this is completely unacceptable. It is syntactically valid, but not semantically. The rule is: only use tables for data that should go into a table (think spreadsheet).

01-18-2009, 06:08 PM	#54
Voodoo ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Porn Valley, CA Posts: 10,590	I like to style my CSS with tables. __________________ "I'm selflessly supporting the common good, but only coincidentally looking out for No.1."

01-18-2009, 11:18 PM	#59
BSleazy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,721	Doesn't CSS make it easy for large sites to make one minor change and have it automatically apply to 100's or 1000's of pages on a site? __________________ icq 156131086

01-18-2009, 11:56 PM	#61
munki Do Fun Shit. Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OC Posts: 13,393	This thread delivers...ish __________________ “I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.” -Oscar Wilde

01-19-2009, 06:26 AM	#65
tranza ICQ: 197-556-237 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: BRASIL !!! Posts: 57,559	You have to be pacient with Css sometimes... __________________ I'm just a newbie.

01-19-2009, 06:30 AM	#66
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 55,248	I remember converting a table design that was 1300+ lines, to pure css turned out to be 65 lines in css __________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

01-18-2009, 06:00 PM	#51
MetaMan I AM WEB 2.0 Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,682	maybe stop being such a cheap ass and hire a designer who knows how to do CSS properly?

01-18-2009, 09:36 PM	#58
Killswitch - BANNED FOR LIFE Guest Posts: n/a	Ugh, I give up, good luck Deej. May the force be with you.

01-19-2009, 12:13 AM	#62
Tempest Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Location: West Coast, Canada. Posts: 10,217	CSS IS better for SEO IF you know what you're doing. A site layout done with a table CAN be just as effective in SEO IF you know how the spiders handle tables. All the other stuff is just crap and misleading at best. eg. a typical spreadsheet type display of data using purely CSS will end up with far more on page code than using a table WITH CSS. Using a table without CSS would be the worst.. Bottom line, use both intelligently.

01-19-2009, 07:52 AM	#67
leek Confirmed User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 342	This argument is so 1998.

01-19-2009, 02:37 PM	#88
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	Also - Id liek to add... When i use CSS to manipulate placement of divisions or beneficial tags... I keep in mind the legitimacy of my content and methods... someone said greyhat... I myself dont stray too far from what is basic HTML acceptance... I dont hide words and I dont do anything screwy... I simply move links and info to where they will benefit my relevance. There is a layout that google and other SEs like... a lot of it goes back to KISS... this goes with anyone's SEO methods... keep it real, bend the light is all... Make it extremely relevant, easier for the surfer to get around while keeping the spiders well fed... screw it all... whoever donst think CSS is helpful... screw you... keep on with your ways... Ill stick to mine... I dont even know why I try to show people helpful hints and beneficial methods... __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880 Last edited by Deej; 01-19-2009 at 02:38 PM..

01-19-2009, 02:56 PM	#92
Killswitch - BANNED FOR LIFE Guest Posts: n/a	The level of retardation is astounding in this thread. Let me break it down for you tard yard big boys. <div id="content">some content here</div> <div id="navigation">navigation menu here</div> <div id="footer">footer stuff here</div> Using proper CSS you can make that look like navigation on the left, content in the middle, and footer at the bottom. Now lets try to do that exact same look with tables <table> <tr> <td>navigation</td> <td>content area</td> </tr> <tr> <td>footer stuff</td> </tr> </table> Oh look, the source code shows the navigation first, which means the search engines use it's stuff before it gets to your content, and if google index's say 100kb that means a good portion of your index is just your navigation, the shit you REALLY don't care if the surfer sees. Does that help you mentally challenged people who don't understand proper CSS/DIV use and SEO, truely understand why it's better to use?

01-19-2009, 02:59 PM	#93
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	One thing though none of you really paid attention to in this thread is something I would agree on. CSS is awesome for setting out different themes and design elements for several sites at once while displaying the same content accross them all. THere are alot of advantages to CSS in many ways but at the same time there are hardly any developer tools for it. You goto have a nice assortment of class libraries and collect veritable elements and collect a steady hand of premade layout concepts to to ease the work flow. Meaning you goto pretty much code the shit by hand which interrupts work flow immensely especially when setting out on a new layout and having to debug every portion of it. Sure you can be a designer and stick to a couple base templates in CSS and fake your way through it but again from what I know many clients want different things different layouts. The methods required at current are hardly conducive to the work flow of a production. Again no developer tools, nothing like DreamWeaver to streamline the work flow in a way that is more productive and timely. I am dabbling with CSS and so far from what I gather it is appearently a series of work arounds and compatibility issues. I visit CSS tutorial sites and they have massive display failures and make excuses on the pages for Opera, FireFox and especially IE as to why the pages are not displaying properly for the tutorial pieces from Nav set ups to layouts while listing the faults of the CSS layout itself and its compatibility issues. Back to Work Flow: I layout a design in Photoshop and cut it up place the information in tables then set out to optimise the html, make way for text and so forth. I use DreamWeaver to intuitively take my graphical elements and view it as the page design comes together. With CSS you can do a layout with Photoshop ( Kinda ) but good luck getting things to order out reliably the way it does when using table based layout elements unless of course you have a preset CSS layout already established otherwise you are going to have to recode by hand the entire thing creating custom tags and hoping the positioning is accurate. Sorry positioning is not accurate whats so ever when it comes to CSS. It simply IS not accurate or reliable when it comes to layout control. I just think CSS is not ready for prime time once again pointing to the lacking of proper development tools while having excessive failures in cross browser compatibility. If you are an SEO freak sure CSS can make your life easier as you can extend your content into veritiable websites using different CSS styles sure it might theoretically help in SEO in ordering the content but I wouldnt count on it as a fail safe road to top SEO results just because the content was ordered properly using CSS. If you order content properly on standard HTML you will get the same results. Content is KING bottom line there. Use valid code and you will get great results whether its in CSS or not. I do plan on moving to CSS though and I am working with it in my off time, which I happen to have alot of right now, trust me you people will be the first to know if I ever arrive to the conclusion that CSS is better for design but right now I do not think so. Anyways I am so done with this thread, so done with this topic... SO done with it. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \| Last edited by AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE; 01-19-2009 at 03:03 PM..

01-19-2009, 03:06 PM	#96
StuartD Sofa King Band Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Outside the box Posts: 29,903	As I said in the other thread, using tables is like designing in Photoshop in grids where as using css is like using Photoshop with layers. Do you design square by square in Photoshop or in layers? __________________ This is me on facebook This is me on twitter