Socks

Paul Markham

I agreed with most of what you said except this one.

There is very little significant traffic that buys porn on the Internet. The people who do buy or did buy are here already. And in these hard times it's even more true. So how do you generate more traffic that will buy at the same ratios or similar?

You raise your "traffic game and take it from other paysites. Then they raise their traffic game and take it back, from you and others, then they all raise their game and take it all back. All the time everyone is raising their traffic game to stand still.

Raising your traffic game costs more money, money that comes from content. Content is what makes the customers buy and all the time sponsors and paysites are raising their game on the traffic they're lowering it on the members area.

Giving more people less reasons to spend money.

We have remember the one and only reason the big Tubes exist is they don't spend a large part of their turn over on traffic.

Using arguments that don't apply to porn is a GFY trait.

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Agent 488

the US economy shed 750,000 jobs last month. damn tubes.

CarlosTheGaucho

Yes, the question is how to put down an evidence. Unless DMCA gets rewritten this might not be too easy.

By shutting the one, who paid the thief down, so he can't pay him to steal from you anymore.

No chance:

mainstream will never touch it

there's a limited number of those, who can ad support this (cams, dating, pills I don't know what)

Logically, they will never have enough budget to support that much porn that producers would like to, so the definition of a "producer" and "reasonable return" would change forever.

I don't believe the potential is there, on the top of that they too will get over saturated soon.

Most importantly, at that moment you're relying on someone else for paying your bills, you're no more marketing your product B2C on your own, which is the most fucked up thing about this.

This is even asking for a nice lawsuit, commercially exploiting / giving away stolen goods for gaining your own returns, again the question of how to bypass DMCA

Firstly, calling this a "business" is rather ridiculous.

Secondly, there's not an easy answer to this, let me quote what I already tried to address to Paul Markham, who's was on a posting streak in my thread, I like Paul, but I had to react.


Quoted text below:

-----------------

How about this:

a) The product (much better word than "content")

b) the traffic

c) the competition

d) the legal regulation

etc.

are ALL PARTS of the environment where you do your MARKETING, where you try to sell your stuff, where you try to make money

From the very first idea you have till the moment, when you count dollars and stats and think of ways, how to improve things and how to gain more edge..

All These things are instantly and intensely affecting YOUR returns!

Ok, Where are we now?

Let's take one after another:

The product:

Mainly shitty over saturated content / in many cases questionable billing practices etc.

(in simple words - FAIL)

The traffic

More educated traffic with less potential than ever

(in simple words - FAIL)

The competition

Many will do anything to fuck you over, and they do it, they steal traffic through illegal tube bullshit etc. and it affects everyone's ratios

(in simple words - FAIL)

The regulation

Practically non existing legal environment, apart from a couple old school pervs getting locked down for being too perv on camera

(in simple words - FAIL)

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RyuLion

yeap, this is the scariest part..they act so excited showing me those sites and say, look I never have to pay for porn, ever!

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Paul Markham

I agreed with most of what you said except this one.

There is very little significant traffic that buys porn on the Internet. The people who do buy or did buy are here already. And in these hard times it's even more true. So how do you generate more traffic that will buy at the same ratios or similar?

You raise your "traffic game and take it from other paysites. Then they raise their traffic game and take it back, from you and others, then they all raise their game and take it all back. All the time everyone is raising their traffic game to stand still.

Raising your traffic game costs more money, money that comes from content. Content is what makes the customers buy and all the time sponsors and paysites are raising their game on the traffic they're lowering it on the members area.

Giving more people less reasons to spend money.

We have remember the one and only reason the big Tubes exist is they don't spend a large part of their turn over on traffic.

Using arguments that don't apply to porn is a GFY trait.

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Paul Markham

And there is the Achilles heel.

They're supported by adverts from dating and cam sites. The recession that will continue for a few years will help kill the profit margins. More people surfing for free + less people spending on dating and webcams = profit margins squeezed.

Is it enough and can we help it get tougher?

Re dating sites.
We could advise our members to go to some of the free alternatives.
We could advise them how they pop up an advert telling them there are girls in their town waiting to meet them.

We could sow seeds of doubt in the surfers mind about dating sites, so when they don't meet the love of their lives they wake up to the fact these sites rip people off. Just enough to make the surfers think first.

Re webcam sites.
Give away free live shows inside paysites so for $30 a month the members buy and stay.

Both of these ideas require you to do more than sit on your ass and moan. They require sponsors to act and more importantly affiliates to support them. Without actions we will be asking the same question this time in 2010. As we did in 2008.

We could tell the members that these sites that rip us off would rip them off as well.

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jay23

may be start a PR campaign telling how all the dating sites profiles are fake.

Agent 488

shit never gets old eh?

CarlosTheGaucho

Where did this thread dissappear?

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Pleasurepays

RE 1: i think you guys are delusional about the DMCA Safe Harbor Provisions.

in a business that splatters the entire internet with "promo content" that's watermarked, that does nothing to protect their own rights (where its use could be argued is done with the tacit approval of the materials owner)... and with a business model where people ARE uploading long movie to promote themselves (youporn.com for example is full of them), you're never going to prove that someone had direct knowledge that there was copyright infringement. the only way that's going to happen is if you somehow magically catch them stealing and uploading movies themselves, against explicit warnings from the owner, which perfectly identify exact videos... and if anyone running a major tube site is that dumb, they shouldn't be sued.. they should be shot and removed from the gene pool.

just because a full length video exists on a tube site doesn't mean its "illegal" which seems to be the favorite assumption. and you can't automatically make the leap in logic (and satisfy the courts with solid, incontrovertible proof) that they knew it was there, they knew it was in violation of someones copyright and so on... no matter how bad you might want to.

CarlosTheGaucho

I agree, since they find an obvious way to reason, why do they filter the content that is
illegal in its nature (illegal to be publically accessible).

With the DMCA loophole, you will have a hard time to reason how should they undisputably recognize which content is copyrighted.

How about watermarks?

A watermark as a sign of the copyright holder? Would this work? Or not?

Well, they're usually ripping DVD's with no watermarks, or buy licenses from idiots, who are too retard to realize, that since they sell full free view rights once, the content doesn't have any value anymore.

As they sold more than all "resell rights", selling all the "give away" rights, that means embedding, sharing, downloading, viral sharing etc. so this is no more anyone's property, but a "property of all".

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Pleasurepays

ok... lets assume i'm an asshole. (try to suspend disbelief)

i have a site full of watermarked videos.

you're going to tell me "hey man... can't you see all the watermarks"

I'm going to say "are you kidding... look around. every sponsor passes out promo content that's watermarked and the net is full of it". a "watermark" itself doesn't indicate anything. in fact, i could also argue that its common practice for people to put watermarks on videos by those who are not the original rights holders of the video. you would have to prove you own the video and that it is your watermark and that i have been warned and that i have been explicitly told to remove the video and that i refused with full awareness of all the facts.

given the way that content is given away for marketing and the way its used by webmasters, i can easily argue that i have no reason to assume or believe that the sponsor is not aware of it or not supporting its distribution... to brand and promote their site and get a trickle of sales as a result of that watermark and users finding their way to the source... which is also common practice.

CarlosTheGaucho

And if the 'promo" material is not used to promote?

Again, you would have to define what's promotion first, sure.

But, since you obviously state in your T & C that no one can use any of your watermarked content for "promo" reasons without affiliate links to you?

Well we're in dispute of the common law and T & C's so yeah, this route might not be this easy to follow too.

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mineistaken

5. depends what you consider death. They will take and are taking huge percentage of sales already

Snake Doctor

The real question is how many threads will be made on GFY bitching about tubes.

If this is the last one I win $200 from the pool, if not then I have to buy another square.

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DWB

EVERYONE needs to man up and stop offering video content that members can download. Encrypted streaming videos only!!!!

YES, members will cry like babies at first but if we ALL do it, it will become the norm and they will deal with it.

Then we DMCA all the content that is already out there or hire companies to have it removed.

Then, what's left of the DVD industry needs to man up and watermark (with a moving watermark - hits all corners) every fucking DVD scene out there. So if the tubes jack that scene, at least they will show the URL of the site. Then DMCA that content until its gone.

Its not pretty or easy but there is a way and sadly, none of us have the balls to make it happen. It will take money, balls and unity. Or... it will take someone large like Bang Bros or Brazzers to start the ball rolling and the rest of you will follow in their footsteps.

gideongallery

won't work, as soon as the market size of crying members is big enough someone will write a program that virtualizes the video card and records that data to the harddrive as a media file.

if you attempted to sue, you will ultimately lose because that we licience it for use on a specific day at a specific time arguement was already slapped down in the betamax case.

The only thing that is preventing that from happening now, is that the market of bitching members is not big enough to justify the expense of fighting it all the way to supreme court.



you do realize that both bang bros and brazzers are actually supporting the tube sites, so basically the only way this is going to happen is if you find a magic wand that turns tube supporters into tube opponents.

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Paul Markham

It has to be done by a significant number of sites. There are solutions out there but they will not work if only a few sites adopt them.

The key is to sow a seed of doubt in the surfers mind, then when he does not get anything in the first 20 tries he gives up.

I met a guy recently who travels the world with his job, he has girl friends in most ports. It takes on average 50 tries to get a genuine one. Most of the replies that come back are people trying to sell something, usually themselves.

The problem with dating sites is most women are not looking for multiple partners, once they find a good guy they get out of the race. Which effects the ratios. Dating sites are new and they will decline as people find out how hard it is to get a girl friend from most of them. Then less will click on an advert and the profit from advertising is going to be effected.

Look at the way Cam sites fell after a few years when people realised they were not all they're cracked out to be. The same will happen to dating sites. We can give them a nudge if enough do it.

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Paul Markham

When all you have is the "Illegal Content" angle to moan about people will never stop moaning about it. The thing the moaners really hate is the lost joins. But they refuse to do anything about it, so the joins stay lost.

Looking at some Tubes I suspect this is true. Too many non watermarked videos to be stolen from paysites, there are some but the ratios make it look like DVD content is what makes up most Tubes with full length scenes.

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Paul Markham

A post of yours I actually agree with. And a pig flew past my window.

Or they will continue to rip DVDs.

You need big balls to take a Tube site to court, few have them.

And as you point out some of the biggest have thrown there lot in with Tubes and don't seem to have suffered.

The ONLY way to bring down Tube sites is for the industry to go after their advertisers. Paysites offer free live web cam shows, we post what a waste of money dating sites are and we all do it not just a few. Yes it will effect your income off dating and web cam sites. The question is will that be made up by bringing customers back to paysites?

And does the industry care enough to give it a shot?

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GatorB

Um no your members will stop being members and get the content via torrent.

DWB

That is simply not true. I now several sites that went to streaming only with NO loss of membership at all. I also know of a few mega large programs (even some that own tube sites) moving to the streaming only model.

New people get online or get credit cards every day. They don't know about torrents yet. Once a surfers learns how to get free porn you lose them. Until that point they are potential customers.

DWB

Someone will may do just that. Though one neat little thing you can do with streaming in general is embed the customers username onto the video so when it is stolen you know exactly who copied and put it out there. I say, since you have that consumers data, you sue the dog piss out of each and every one of them. One at a time. Any member that is going to rip me off I would not have a problem suing them. Mainstream does it, one person at a time. So should we.

We've sued a couple websites (pay sites who were stealing our content) already and won. Copyright violation is still a crime and if you have a US based presence and US based assets, I'll be coming for them. Most of the tubes have removed our content after asking them to. Yes, our content is still out there but we are getting a little bit of a handle on it and have even collected some money.


For sure I know this and I also know they are not suffering from it. I've also heard that one of them may be about to go 100% encrypted streaming. With that said, I'm going to bet my money on the companies that rake in millions of dollars and set the trends in the industry. Every single one of you will follow what someone of that size will do. You follow them from your tour designs to the style of content you shoot to their billing price and everything in the middle. That's the way every industry is. The big guys lead, the little guys follow, but only laughing at how the big guys plan to do things. Then they get in line with the rest of the little guys.

Like I said, it's not easy and it's not cheap. This is where the wanna be porn people get moved to the side so you can watch or look for new work while the serious companies move forward and protect what is theirs. By the sounds of most of your comments, you will be watching others do the work for you.

Paul Markham

We all know sites who do something to back up our argument, but until people start to name them I ignore it.

Members like to download videos so they can watch it at their own leisure. No matter how good your servers are and their connection the route from you to them can slow everything down. Especially if they want the full quality versions.

Not that streaming will stop Tubes or Torrent sites. But let's just imagine for a minute that 100% of sites stream all their videos. Will it stop Tubes and Torrents? Only in a dream world.

The sites who back Tubes would love it and put all the content onto their Tubes, the big Tubes don't need new content every day. They have thousands of scenes already and the guys who have seen all and not bought something can go away. Or GF themselves.

If they have to Tubes will use DVD content which the absence of watermarks leads me to think they do already. There are hundreds of thousands of titles on the market Tubes and Torrents can use.

So why should we all go to the expense, work and annoy customers to do something that has little benefit?

If we have totally 100% unique content that sells and buyers have to have it could work. If it's porn like 90% of the other sites in the niche and style it will not. Sadly that's what most have.

The truth is while Tubes make a profit they will exist and the harder you make it for some, the better it is for those who get past those obstacles.

Let's just say you make it 100% impossible to run a Tube site with content not owned by the Tube site owner.

What do you think will happen?

I'm going to watch the soccer while you think of the answer.

Reply to the question please.

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Paul Markham

That's the question and this is the problem.

While Tubes make a profit they will exist and the harder you make it for some, the better it is for those who get past those obstacles.

So let's imagine it's totally impossible to run a site with content you don't own. Yes I know it's a dream but not as much as us all streaming our content.

This is what would happen. The sites that own Tubes will put their content onto their Tube sites. Plus Tube sites will become more profitable to run, less of them with full length scenes means more surfers on them looking at the adverts.

So maybe some sponsors might decide the days of struggling to get affiliates to send them traffic that costs a fortune will decide to turn their paysites into Tube sites with adverts.

This is without all the sponsors who are prepared to give legal Tubes 4, 5, 6 or what ever length clips to Tube sites. Sometimes even hosting them as well. Yes the sponsors today pay the BW bill for a Tube to sell dating and web cam adverts. It's so fucking ridiculous I would never of dreamed it would happen. But it does.

So please DirtyWhiteBoy stop telling us about streaming, it's a dead end solution.

The only way to bring Tubes down is to make them unprofitable.

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Paul Markham

No one arguing with me?

Sadly I'm right, Tubes are here to stay while they are able to make a profit.

If they pass laws stopping illegal content they will still exist. If they pass laws to put all porn into members areas they will charge a lifetime membership of $1.99 and still exist. And while they exist and paysites stay in the format they created for themselves in 1998 they will continue to take members away.

Change the format or put up with losing members.

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xxxjay

This seems to be a more intelligent than average GFY thread so I am bumping it.

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