About the TUBE RAGE/IDIOCY/CRYING

[harvey]

I posted this here

I was going to write something in detail, but I got bored, so will keep it short and sweet: no matter what reality is, no matter how you subjectively perceive it, the whole point is what are you going to do about reality. I think tubes will kill themselves, and in a relatively short time. However, for that time, they're here to stay and in the meanwhile they'll kill everyone else. So, what are you going to do about it? Cry? Bitch? Complain on GFY?

At least these thread bring out the creative flow, but to be honest they're getting kinda annoying. Tubes are hell. Granted. Tubes are evil and will kill the business as we know/knew it. Granted. SO?

Seriously, you really, really, REALLY need to think on how to compete. Most medium to big paysites have enough resources to cover the tubes losses and then some more, however, very few people can see 10 inches further.

Just think on the REALLY BIG LIST of things tubes can't offer right now, and build from there. I mean, I can name no less than 50 tools you can use in your paysites that tubes can't do (although they may adapt and do it before you even realize it because you're busy crying and complaining). Bottom line, you can even use tubes for your own profit. Conditions are set for those with 2 connecting braincells (and some resources) to take the lion's part and make even more money than ever.

Just stop crying, the tears aren't letting you see the paths... besides, as much as you cry, you won't solve anything

That's it, I'm tired and going to sleep

PS: To Gideongallery: when you talk about Q ratio you're talking about Tobin's Q ratio formula? because if so, I really don't get how it relates to this issue, unless stock markets plays a role in this situation, which might be, but I don't think this is the specific case.
PS2: since I'm in a good mood, here's a hint: etary groups. Do whatever you want with it

Not too much to say on my side, I admit it. I was tired and really amazed/outraged on some things that were said in that thread. 6 pages of CRYING AND NONSENSE and still growing. 6 pages which contains data and people trying to justify data (I mean like in OBJECTIVE NUMBERS) with absurd perceptions about why objectivity is subjective, or in other words, why "reality isn't happening"!

Well, guess what: IT'S HAPPENING. Hide your head in the sand if you want and get fucked in the ass in the process. But pretty, pretty, pretty please: STOP CRYING! If you chose to DO NOTHING, you're free to do it, just don't complain because you don't want to face reality.

If you didn't stop to think yet, start right now. Be creative, think outside the box. If you need help, get it. If you gotta pay for it, PAY IT (it will be less than what you already lost for sure, and much less than all what you will lose). If you need to take a weekend with other webmasters to the sole purpose of discussing strategies and/or network, DO IT.

Now, if you think the adult content delivery is limited to what you were doing for the last 15 years... well, you're so totally wrong and off base it's not even funny. Magazines are disappearing, and so will you if you persist on the same path. If you think the word marketing means "buy beers and post at GFY", well... you're getting what you deserve. Things have changed, like it or not.

If you took a big uppercut in your jaw, it's pretty understandable if you take some time to get yourself together. But after that, stand up and fight or run your way home, but pretty, pretty, pretty please: JUST STOP CRYING!!!!

[Jack Sparrow]

Sig spottin.

Btw people should really try and use the wird illegal tubes instead of tubes in general.

And: im still convinced "my kinda tube setup" is biting little chunks oug of the illigal tubes traffic. Lot of sponsors already notuced it and are already cooperating with us.

Said it long time ago, either act up or...

No offense to anyone, but its still funny im gettibg attacked by some instead of being supportef for sticking my neck out ;)

[Zester]

any idea on how to minimize losses from tubes sites ?
i saw the 6 page thread but didn't post or went to deep because i didn't see anything productive coming from it

can we make this one different ?

[Pleasurepays]

Tube sites killed Michael Jackson

[CrkMStanz]

I'm going to try and clarify my years worth of rants on tubes / torrent / rapidscums ...

Tubes make money (ya, I said it)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off the table for others

Torrents make money (yup, they do)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off the table for others

File Sharing sites make money (really)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off they table for others

but all these things make a lot less money than they could

Tubes (free porn) will NOT kill the porn business (nope - it won't)
but it will severely reduce the pile of money that COULD be made by everyone

everything I have ever said on this board is directed at one thing and one thing only... Continually increasing the amount of available free porn on the net decreases the total amount of money that clients would pay each year - and its a declining number each and every year.



but as long as SOME people are making SOME money, it ain't gonna change - and the decline will continue to be justified and rationalized.


hopefully the govs will get around to porn regulation on the net - not regulate the content available - but regulate the delivery methods - hopefully 1) BANNING all free delivery methods and 2) coming out with laws unique to 'digital products' and view them as any other hard product - therefor enabling prosecution under terms of 'theft' and not 'infringement'.


but as usual - those in the traffic and free-porn biz's will flock to tell me how I am totally wrong


so... carry on

[fris]

amateur porn is where its at

[Barefootsies]

Nice read.

Siggin ze Spottin

[Robocrop]

This is shit ...same old same old!

[born2blog]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

Tube sites killed Michael Jackson

I knew it

[tony286]

It's easy to make comments like that when you don't produce content.

[GregE]

Originally Posted by tony404

It's easy to make comments like that when you don't produce content.

Quoted for truth.

[harvey]

Originally Posted by CrkMStanz

I'm going to try and clarify my years worth of rants on tubes / torrent / rapidscums ...

Tubes make money (ya, I said it)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off the table for others

Torrents make money (yup, they do)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off the table for others

File Sharing sites make money (really)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off they table for others

but all these things make a lot less money than they could

Tubes (free porn) will NOT kill the porn business (nope - it won't)
but it will severely reduce the pile of money that COULD be made by everyone

everything I have ever said on this board is directed at one thing and one thing only... Continually increasing the amount of available free porn on the net decreases the total amount of money that clients would pay each year - and its a declining number each and every year.



but as long as SOME people are making SOME money, it ain't gonna change - and the decline will continue to be justified and rationalized.


hopefully the govs will get around to porn regulation on the net - not regulate the content available - but regulate the delivery methods - hopefully 1) BANNING all free delivery methods and 2) coming out with laws unique to 'digital products' and view them as any other hard product - therefor enabling prosecution under terms of 'theft' and not 'infringement'.


but as usual - those in the traffic and free-porn biz's will flock to tell me how I am totally wrong


so... carry on

hmmm.... regarding to this post I'd simply say "welcome to capitalism, it started around 1780" and that would be enough.

But let's be more specific. What you're saying was been told 1 zillion times in internet's adult business (as well as mainstream). Some history to put things in context:

I started a site in 1997 (sex-o-pedia) which was the direct antecedent of Freeones. Back in that time, they were a few of us, mostly what you could call "link lists". (a side note: in the "6 pages never ending tube yadda yadda" thread someone shown Freeones is one of the sites that didn't lose to tubes, or at least not much. That's because that concept is still great, however it takes a lot of work to do it. But there's another hint for you all)

Then top lists faced and everybody started crying and tearing their hairs (while a few ones started their own top lists). Top lists didn't make any harm, but then came TGP.

With TGPs, everybody starting crying again, this time much louder. At that time, a few of us created the TGP2 concept, for which I run the webmaster's central point (tgp2.net). The idea was that by listing only galleries with 5 clickable thumbs people would want to buy memberships. Everything fine in theory, however, once surfers saw TGPs listing no content they simply went to regular TGPs, and TGP2 failed miserably.

By the same time appeared the "Circle Jerks". No content at all, just "circle jerking" surfers betwee sites until they eventually would get tired and hopefully sign up with a pay site. They got LOADS of traffic. Of course, crap traffic, but still loads. And they disappeared. Some turned into CJ/TGP hybrids and disappeared or turned into full TGP.

Then file sharing... and the same story.

Now, it's tubes... and the same story.

It has been EXACTLY THE SAME SINCE THE BEGINNING. AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE LIKE THAT.

The common thing about this is... TRAFFIC. If you have the traffic, you make the rules.

With tubes, there are some scenarios that could happen. For sure, they'll get increasingly more traffic and kill most paysites in the meanwhile. That's why you see mostly webcams and dating sponsors in tube sites: because that's something they can't offer. Paysites as they're now, with the same business model than in 1997 (believe me, they didn't change a damn thing with a few honorable exceptions), are meant to disappear in its majority. One of the reasons is there are too many paysites for the market (wow....) and those that will survive are those willing to offer something different. I made a post explaining some things on content some time ago based on research. Some people heard, some people disbelief, some people laughed. The same that happened in the 6 pages tube thread: if you show evidence, most people will try to fool around evidence and deny it even if it's biting their own asses. However, although the key is in content, there are many many MANY ways to offer value added services tubes can't offer... for now.

So we get to another tube scenario: the "premium" access. Most tube sites are doing it right now for a small fee (around 10 bucks). Now, with tube sites getting 2 million uniques a day, if they convert 0.1% of that traffic that means $600,000 a month. OK, since most of the traffic is regular visitors, make it only 100,000. I think they'll be able to pay 10, 20 or 30 servers if they want. And form there, everything is gravy.

However, when a new technology shows up, most people gets used to it. So, why pay for the great image quality of the "premium access" when you can see videos with lower quality for free and still wank to those? This is the failure scenario for tubes, they're creating the same technology adequation for surfers that in turn will kill them. Those sites will get increasingly more traffic and they source venues will decrease in an exponential curve (when not directly disappear). So, at some point, they'll have shitloads of traffic and nowhere to direct it, at least places that will pay for it. Then the real "Tube Wars" will start and they will try to kill each other.

I don't have a crystal ball, I'm just telling what always happened and applying a tiny bit of logic.

So, they'll get to a point where they have lots of traffic and a few of them are surviving at this point... and then comes the next scenario: create their own networks of paysites, cam sites, dating sites, whatever. They've all the traffic for free already, and they'll be in a position where they could simply "pull the plug" and start selling like they never did.

Who is going to compete with that? Believe me, none of you, unless you change. Not now, you must change.... yesterday. A week ago. A month ago. You're already late and all your crying and whining didn't help at all, otherwise... you wouldn't be crying!!!!

So, what I said in the first post: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

[Agent 488]

i'm still pissed off at craigslist for killng porn.

[harvey]

Originally Posted by tony404

It's easy to make comments like that when you don't produce content.

Originally Posted by GregE

Quoted for truth.

Sorry, did I ever say that any specific business model (such as content) is the right one? I did shot content for a couple years and saw there was no point, it was too much work for little reward and things were going to go downhill.

This being said, at least 80% of content I see in nowadays paysites is the less appealing stuff I've ever seen. Boring to the power of 1000. Usually off niche. Total lack of knowledge of the specific fetish. No fantasy at all, just "bang bang let's shoot content there you have". I don't know if the ones to blame are the programs owners or the content people, or maybe both (probably both), but with a few exceptions, content people might be excellent at lightning, photo, video edition, whatever. But very poor at the content itself.

Of course I'm talking about people shooting content for programs. If you're someone selling non-exclusive content... well, there's no much to do, winds have changed. And it's a shame, because between crappy exclusive HD content and some nice non-exclusive non-HD content I can prove the non-exclusive will always kicks the ultra-high-tech crappy content. People here is so confused that they believe that by adding an HD camera (or 2 or 3 or 1 million) surfers will say "wow, the content is horrible but it's shot in HD, I'll signup right now!"

[notime]

Originally Posted by harvey

I think they'll be able to pay 10, 20 or 30 servers if they want.

Sites with that amount of traffic use CDN's and just pay for bandwidth. No power, no rackspace, no monthly fees, no filer hardware, no storage costs when it comes to videofiles.

Just bandwidth. Low priced per Mbit or Gbit.

[D Ghost]

embrace the change, morph accordingly in a creative and inventive fashion, breaking through and utilizing what already is - to your advantage.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by harvey

hmmm.... regarding to this post I'd simply say "welcome to capitalism, it started around 1780" and that would be enough.

But let's be more specific. What you're saying was been told 1 zillion times in internet's adult business (as well as mainstream). Some history to put things in context:

I started a site in 1997 (sex-o-pedia) which was the direct antecedent of Freeones. Back in that time, they were a few of us, mostly what you could call "link lists". (a side note: in the "6 pages never ending tube yadda yadda" thread someone shown Freeones is one of the sites that didn't lose to tubes, or at least not much. That's because that concept is still great, however it takes a lot of work to do it. But there's another hint for you all)

Then top lists faced and everybody started crying and tearing their hairs (while a few ones started their own top lists). Top lists didn't make any harm, but then came TGP.

With TGPs, everybody starting crying again, this time much louder. At that time, a few of us created the TGP2 concept, for which I run the webmaster's central point (tgp2.net). The idea was that by listing only galleries with 5 clickable thumbs people would want to buy memberships. Everything fine in theory, however, once surfers saw TGPs listing no content they simply went to regular TGPs, and TGP2 failed miserably.

By the same time appeared the "Circle Jerks". No content at all, just "circle jerking" surfers betwee sites until they eventually would get tired and hopefully sign up with a pay site. They got LOADS of traffic. Of course, crap traffic, but still loads. And they disappeared. Some turned into CJ/TGP hybrids and disappeared or turned into full TGP.

Then file sharing... and the same story.

Now, it's tubes... and the same story.

It has been EXACTLY THE SAME SINCE THE BEGINNING. AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE LIKE THAT.

The common thing about this is... TRAFFIC. If you have the traffic, you make the rules.

With tubes, there are some scenarios that could happen. For sure, they'll get increasingly more traffic and kill most paysites in the meanwhile. That's why you see mostly webcams and dating sponsors in tube sites: because that's something they can't offer. Paysites as they're now, with the same business model than in 1997 (believe me, they didn't change a damn thing with a few honorable exceptions), are meant to disappear in its majority. One of the reasons is there are too many paysites for the market (wow....) and those that will survive are those willing to offer something different. I made a post explaining some things on content some time ago based on research. Some people heard, some people disbelief, some people laughed. The same that happened in the 6 pages tube thread: if you show evidence, most people will try to fool around evidence and deny it even if it's biting their own asses. However, although the key is in content, there are many many MANY ways to offer value added services tubes can't offer... for now.

So we get to another tube scenario: the "premium" access. Most tube sites are doing it right now for a small fee (around 10 bucks). Now, with tube sites getting 2 million uniques a day, if they convert 0.1% of that traffic that means $600,000 a month. OK, since most of the traffic is regular visitors, make it only 100,000. I think they'll be able to pay 10, 20 or 30 servers if they want. And form there, everything is gravy.

However, when a new technology shows up, most people gets used to it. So, why pay for the great image quality of the "premium access" when you can see videos with lower quality for free and still wank to those? This is the failure scenario for tubes, they're creating the same technology adequation for surfers that in turn will kill them. Those sites will get increasingly more traffic and they source venues will decrease in an exponential curve (when not directly disappear). So, at some point, they'll have shitloads of traffic and nowhere to direct it, at least places that will pay for it. Then the real "Tube Wars" will start and they will try to kill each other.

I don't have a crystal ball, I'm just telling what always happened and applying a tiny bit of logic.

So, they'll get to a point where they have lots of traffic and a few of them are surviving at this point... and then comes the next scenario: create their own networks of paysites, cam sites, dating sites, whatever. They've all the traffic for free already, and they'll be in a position where they could simply "pull the plug" and start selling like they never did.

Who is going to compete with that? Believe me, none of you, unless you change. Not now, you must change.... yesterday. A week ago. A month ago. You're already late and all your crying and whining didn't help at all, otherwise... you wouldn't be crying!!!!

So, what I said in the first post: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

this is the same speech I heard in 2000 when I worked for a mainstream dot com. We are changing the way business will be run, everything will be free ads will pay for it all and it failed. Basic business principles dont change, using others work without permission is not a new hot business model its theft.I go to a restaurant its basically the same business principle since the time the first one was opened. The problem with the adult industry is we embrace people and businesses that dont have our best interests at heart.also if you think once you have that traffic,that all of a sudden that traffic has to pay for what you gave them for free that they are going to stick around your kidding yourself. They will go on to the next free place.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by tony404

this is the same speech I heard in 2000 when I worked for a mainstream dot com. We are changing the way business will be run, everything will be free ads will pay for it all and it failed. Basic business principles dont change, using others work without permission is not a new hot business model its theft.I go to a restaurant its basically the same business principle since the time the first one was opened. The problem with the adult industry is we embrace people and businesses that dont have our best interests at heart.also if you think once you have that traffic,that all of a sudden that traffic has to pay for what you gave them for free that they are going to stick around your kidding yourself. They will go on to the next free place.

that is exactly the problem with this industry... the perpetual and long time misalignment of the website owners interests and the surfers interests.

listening to these people say tubes are THE problem is no different than listening to someone say "there is no more room in the world for a new restaurant and restaurants are no longer profitable because taco stands sell rat meat"

people pay for quality and consistency in anything. people are loyal to quality and consistency.

it totally boggles the mind that people in this industry are so stupid that they can't understand why users are migrating away from blind links and skims when they are presented with a better option.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

that is exactly the problem with this industry... the perpetual and long time misalignment of the website owners interests and the surfers interests.

listening to these people say tubes are THE problem is no different than listening to someone say "there is no more room in the world for a new restaurant and restaurants are no longer profitable because taco stands sell rat meat"

people pay for quality and consistency in anything. people are loyal to quality and consistency.

it totally boggles the mind that people in this industry are so stupid that they can't understand why users are migrating away from blind links and skims when they are presented with a better option.

Sorry have to disagree if I had a restaurant and you had one but Im stealing your food from your walk in box and then giving it away in my restaurant. You cant compete I dont care what you do.People may want free but its not a business model.

[harvey]

Originally Posted by tony404

Sorry have to disagree if I had a restaurant and you had one but Im stealing your food from your walk in box and then giving it away in my restaurant. You cant compete I dont care what you do.People may want free but its not a business model.

Tony, it's a business model. You may like it or not (I don't) but it exists, and therefore you gotta act in consequence. that's the whole point of this thread: Tubes are here to stay. Embrace it or fight it.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by tony404

Sorry have to disagree if I had a restaurant and you had one but Im stealing your food from your walk in box and then giving it away in my restaurant. You cant compete I dont care what you do.People may want free but its not a business model.

funny how people have a hard time pointing out all this "stolen content" that's supposed to be breaking the industry apart. i mean... to hear people talk about it, you would have to assume that 90% of tube content is stolen. NO ONE wants to talk about tube8.com or youporn.com having sponsor uploaded content or that most big sites are using licensed videos.



and to address your point... the first step is pretty obvious.

....don't let people leave with your food in your box right?

lets stop pretending this industry makes any effort to protect its content. it doesn't.

and you know what? there are many solutions for that and has been for a long time. and there are also legal and technical solutions for finding your food in your box being sold and for stopping it almost instantly.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by harvey

Tony, it's a business model. You may like it or not (I don't) but it exists, and therefore you gotta act in consequence. that's the whole point of this thread: Tubes are here to stay. Embrace it or fight it.

no using others content without permission is theft not a business model. Maybe it makes people feel better saying its a business model.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by tony404

no using others content without permission is theft not a business model. Maybe it makes people feel better saying its a business model.

i think the idea that everyone is stealing which accounts for your failure is what makes people "feel better"

[harvey]

Originally Posted by tony404

no using others content without permission is theft not a business model. Maybe it makes people feel better saying its a business model.

there's a lot of stole content in tubes, that's for sure. However most of them are evolving to legal content (although keeping a good share of stolen content, at least for now). I'd say Youtube has at least 50% of stolen content, while big tube sites must be around 25/30%. And legally, they're doing the same as Youtube.

Either way, unless you plan to sue them, you better find a way to work within this new reality, call it a business model, a theft or whatever.

[tranza]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

Tube sites killed Michael Jackson

[harvey]

Originally Posted by tranza

laugh all what you want, but it's true

[kane]

This is just the give it away free economy in action. When you build your business model around giving something away for free (which the porn industry does) eventually someone comes along and gives away more than you and kills your business model.

We started with link sites and they got traffic. Then tgps gave away more and got more users. then MPGs gave away more and got more users. Now tube sites are giving away even more and getting even more users.

I think the next step will be sites that offer full length HD movies for free or they will offer exclusive content for free. And it will be huge.

[Nicky]

Bump for discussion.

[Nicky]

Originally Posted by fris

amateur porn is where its at

Care to point out some amateur sponsors you have good confidence in?

[spider_x]

Originally Posted by CrkMStanz

I'm going to try and clarify my years worth of rants on tubes / torrent / rapidscums ...

Tubes make money (ya, I said it)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off the table for others

Torrents make money (yup, they do)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off the table for others

File Sharing sites make money (really)
but they only make money for a few while taking a TON of money off they table for others

but all these things make a lot less money than they could

Tubes (free porn) will NOT kill the porn business (nope - it won't)
but it will severely reduce the pile of money that COULD be made by everyone

everything I have ever said on this board is directed at one thing and one thing only... Continually increasing the amount of available free porn on the net decreases the total amount of money that clients would pay each year - and its a declining number each and every year.



but as long as SOME people are making SOME money, it ain't gonna change - and the decline will continue to be justified and rationalized.


hopefully the govs will get around to porn regulation on the net - not regulate the content available - but regulate the delivery methods - hopefully 1) BANNING all free delivery methods and 2) coming out with laws unique to 'digital products' and view them as any other hard product - therefor enabling prosecution under terms of 'theft' and not 'infringement'.


but as usual - those in the traffic and free-porn biz's will flock to tell me how I am totally wrong


so... carry on

France has already implemented such measures. Making it illegal to download illegal web stuff. Obviously a HUGE blow to ummm hmmmmm fucking PRIVACY and CIVIL LIBERTIES. So by thinking you're protecting your own content you go and step all over the consumer's shoes. This makes for two extremes. Protectionism vs. Revenue. There will always be revenue, but the worst killer to revenue would be protectionism measures. It's been said before DRM has failed. And governments who enforce such Draconian bullshit are basically shooting themselves in the foot as well as their economy. Just look at what George Bush did to America. Example: Making internet gambling illegal. That's no different from halting a filesharing site. The net MUST remain neutral. One side is getting scared, whimpering in the corner and asking for an even BIGGER buttfucking from the govt. while the other side embraces freedom and adaptation. The key to this crisis is cooperation among this webmaster community as a whole. These threads need to stop criticizing each other. There is a solution if EVERYONE (paysite owners, tgp owners, tube owners, affiliates,etc.) works together to fight an even bigger monster. ADAPT OR DIE. If you keep fighting against each other the BIGGEST asshole, BIG BROTHER, is going to take away porn altogether. Don't let the BIG BROTHER win at all costs. Whatever form XXX assumes over the years, do not criticize it. Let it weather every storm. XXX faced the dot xxx extension and WON. How many countless battles has it won and survived? The war isn't over my friends and the fate of porn rests in each of your hands....
VIVE LA RESISTANCE!

[spider_x]

Do I need to make this into a Dicks vs. Pussies vs. Assholes speech? I will if I have to ;)
Bottom line don't let the biggest asshole of all (big brother) get your dicks and your pussies all covered in shit!

[Agent 488]

http://www.kk.org/newrules/newrules-4.html

[Nicky]

Originally Posted by budsbabes

http://www.kk.org/newrules/newrules-4.html

Interesting read, only skimmed through it now, gonna bookmark for later.

[closer]

Originally Posted by Nicky

Interesting read, only skimmed through it now, gonna bookmark for later.

Very much so!

• There is no power in the gift unless it is crucial to your business.
• It must be the right gift, given in the proper context.
• Act as if your product or service is free.
• Anticipate the cheap.
• Pinpoint where value is being given out for free now, and then follow up.
• If one way to increase product value is to make products free, then many things now free may contain potential value not yet perceived.

etc...

[CrkMStanz]

Originally Posted by spider_x

... PRIVACY and CIVIL LIBERTIES... George Bush ... ADAPT OR DIE....VIVE LA RESISTANCE!

lol

so tell me - if we all adapt, so as to not die, what exactly does this mean?

do we all race to see who can post the most free porn, have all the R&D guys working on bigger, better, faster ways to deliver free porn. What happens when we ALL do this? Porn just becomes a free social nicety that content producers are more than happy to spend their lives producing? new and fresh free porn for all, generously donated by content producers worldwide?

again - I want to do pics and video, pursue my 'art' - and sell it on my website... it really should be that simple.

just because someone did a survey and found that most people want free porn... really didn't mean that you HAD to give it to them. Just because some fresh-out-of-university marketing grad firmly believes that you just can't sell to 'todays market' unless lots of it is free and the 'pay-stuff' HAS to be mind blowingly awesome, really doesn't mean that you have to do it.

Sometimes a simple presentation will suffice.

the only people benefiting from free porn are traffic dudes (and pirates of course, but thats not what I'm trying to say here)... they now have a shitload of it, and it becomes more worthless each passing moment - and yes, I know that there are high quiality traffic sources, and brokers - but your time to join the 'cease and desist' chorus is coming shortly.

believe me - without free porn, just as many people will seek porn out on the Intrawebz

its not about 'tubes' (or ANY delivery method preceeding them) - its about giving away what should be sold

I shall repeat... the only people really benifiting from free porn are traffic dudes (...and pirates...)

[Paul Markham]

When I made my first sale to guy selling on the Internet, must be nearly 20 years ago, his main complaint was that there was TOO MUCH FREE STUFF ON THE INTERNET. He was talking about Newsgroups.

When I first wandered over from a Vegas AVN show to the small Adult Internet show (Internext?) the main complaint was too much free stuff available. And still today the complaint is TOO MUCH FREE STUFF ON THE INTERNET.

And what do most people on the Adult Internet concentrate most of their efforts, innovation and money on? Yes you got it, putting up more free content on the Internet. And still the cry is there is too much free stuff. In fact the answer to "Not enough sales" is usually replied with "not enough traffic". And the only way most can get more traffic is to give away more free content.

One of the main problems is the people selling don't understand the people buying. They may understand the people looking at porn but they are not always customers. Ask anyone who runs or ran a porn shop or mail order business what is the mainstay of their business and they will tell you It's the same people buying over and over again.

These people are no longer buying and not because their is free stuff available.

It's because the sites offering it for free offer more than the sites selling. Until that is put right the customers will keep moving away.

If you're selling hamburgers and someone opens next door giving them away you change your product to a better model or close down. We only bitch that the guy giving them away is getting the meat for free and doing nothing else. And this needs to be done by all of us, not a few sites. We all need to change the way we do business.

[Naja-ram]

Originally Posted by DJ The Kid

embrace the change, morph accordingly in a creative and inventive fashion, breaking through and utilizing what already is - to your advantage.

are you on crack ?

[Naja-ram]

Originally Posted by harvey

Sorry, did I ever say that any specific business model (such as content) is the right one? I did shot content for a couple years and saw there was no point, it was too much work for little reward and things were going to go downhill.

This being said, at least 80% of content I see in nowadays paysites is the less appealing stuff I've ever seen. Boring to the power of 1000. Usually off niche. Total lack of knowledge of the specific fetish. No fantasy at all, just "bang bang let's shoot content there you have". I don't know if the ones to blame are the programs owners or the content people, or maybe both (probably both), but with a few exceptions, content people might be excellent at lightning, photo, video edition, whatever. But very poor at the content itself.

Of course I'm talking about people shooting content for programs. If you're someone selling non-exclusive content... well, there's no much to do, winds have changed. And it's a shame, because between crappy exclusive HD content and some nice non-exclusive non-HD content I can prove the non-exclusive will always kicks the ultra-high-tech crappy content. People here is so confused that they believe that by adding an HD camera (or 2 or 3 or 1 million) surfers will say "wow, the content is horrible but it's shot in HD, I'll signup right now!"

i agree with what you say about the off niche thing
tip: if you put a hat on the model's head - it doesn't change the niche !

[Blingbaby]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Nice read.

Siggin ze Spottin

Dude, seriously do you ever have anything else to say? Your avatar pic is annoying as hell too but I"m sure you've heard that before..

[Paul Markham]

Some good points.

Originally Posted by harvey

Sorry, did I ever say that any specific business model (such as content) is the right one? I did shot content for a couple years and saw there was no point, it was too much work for little reward and things were going to go downhill.

To shoot content profitably you had to be good and have more markets than just the Internet. Without magazine sales we would ever of got to the size we were. They funded most of the boy girl ad girl girl shoots we did. Shooting 4 or more girls for the Internet is simply not profitable without magazine sales. Add the $4,000 we earn from magazines and it is. Which is why so few content providers will have these scenes. Some do, but not enough. Members love them, girls love doing them and they sell and convert.

This being said, at least 80% of content I see in nowadays paysites is the less appealing stuff I've ever seen. Boring to the power of 1000. Usually off niche. Total lack of knowledge of the specific fetish. No fantasy at all, just "bang bang let's shoot content there you have". I don't know if the ones to blame are the programs owners or the content people, or maybe both (probably both), but with a few exceptions, content people might be excellent at lightning, photo, video edition, whatever. But very poor at the content itself.

To shoot good content you need certain things. A knowledge of the niche, experience handling models, budget and time. Too much content is shot to fill a slot in a site or on a shelf. The blame is simple to place, sponsors do not spend enough on content. The good shooters in the business are there, but not working for the money offered.

Plus being a good photographer does not make you a good pornographer. I'm a good pornographer and crap photographer. Seen some great single shots from boring sets and perfectly shot boring porn videos.

Of course I'm talking about people shooting content for programs. If you're someone selling non-exclusive content... well, there's no much to do, winds have changed. And it's a shame, because between crappy exclusive HD content and some nice non-exclusive non-HD content I can prove the non-exclusive will always kicks the ultra-high-tech crappy content. People here is so confused that they believe that by adding an HD camera (or 2 or 3 or 1 million) surfers will say "wow, the content is horrible but it's shot in HD, I'll signup right now!"

The industry started a lie and spun it out of all control. Non exclusive was saturated. It was told over and over again until all the affiliates believed it and the industry has suffered.

If it was saturated it would of meant it was sold over and over again and for photographers would of been very profitable. But so many of these shooters were unable to make a living shooting for a content store or even for brokering they moved to shooting custom for low prices or got out completely. If non exclusive is saturated in a members area it means the site is successful signing members and keeps buying more and more from the same suppliers. You can't saturate a product that does not sell. Unless you buy a blow out 20 others bought and give it to affiliates. Then it's saturated on TGPs.

So the money that could be spent by content providers shooting for themselves was limited and that hurt members area. Led to people who could not shoot pointing cameras at naked people. Not porn that sells.

Anyone who thinks shooting with a HD camera is a solution is IMO a fool or trying to push a fact that counts nothing to the porn consumers. For many niches HD is very wrong.

To get good sales you have to have something good to sell.

[OrangeContent]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

lets stop pretending this industry makes any effort to protect its content. it doesn't.

and you know what? there are many solutions for that and has been for a long time. and there are also legal and technical solutions for finding your food in your box being sold and for stopping it almost instantly.

As a porn site reviewer, I have noticed this as one of the top weaknesses in the adult industry (when it comes to downloading content).

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by spider_x

France has already implemented such measures. Making it illegal to download illegal web stuff. Obviously a HUGE blow to ummm hmmmmm fucking PRIVACY and CIVIL LIBERTIES. So by thinking you're protecting your own content you go and step all over the consumer's shoes. This makes for two extremes. Protectionism vs. Revenue. There will always be revenue, but the worst killer to revenue would be protectionism measures. It's been said before DRM has failed. And governments who enforce such Draconian bullshit are basically shooting themselves in the foot as well as their economy. Just look at what George Bush did to America. Example: Making internet gambling illegal. That's no different from halting a filesharing site. The net MUST remain neutral. One side is getting scared, whimpering in the corner and asking for an even BIGGER buttfucking from the govt. while the other side embraces freedom and adaptation. The key to this crisis is cooperation among this webmaster community as a whole. These threads need to stop criticizing each other. There is a solution if EVERYONE (paysite owners, tgp owners, tube owners, affiliates,etc.) works together to fight an even bigger monster. ADAPT OR DIE. If you keep fighting against each other the BIGGEST asshole, BIG BROTHER, is going to take away porn altogether. Don't let the BIG BROTHER win at all costs. Whatever form XXX assumes over the years, do not criticize it. Let it weather every storm. XXX faced the dot xxx extension and WON. How many countless battles has it won and survived? The war isn't over my friends and the fate of porn rests in each of your hands....
VIVE LA RESISTANCE!

A thief loses his right of privacy and civil liberties when he chooses to steal someone elses property.

As for this industry doing anything positive about piracy well that's not going to happen soon.

[harvey]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Some good points.



To shoot content profitably you had to be good and have more markets than just the Internet. Without magazine sales we would ever of got to the size we were. They funded most of the boy girl ad girl girl shoots we did. Shooting 4 or more girls for the Internet is simply not profitable without magazine sales. Add the $4,000 we earn from magazines and it is. Which is why so few content providers will have these scenes. Some do, but not enough. Members love them, girls love doing them and they sell and convert.



To shoot good content you need certain things. A knowledge of the niche, experience handling models, budget and time. Too much content is shot to fill a slot in a site or on a shelf. The blame is simple to place, sponsors do not spend enough on content. The good shooters in the business are there, but not working for the money offered.

Plus being a good photographer does not make you a good pornographer. I'm a good pornographer and crap photographer. Seen some great single shots from boring sets and perfectly shot boring porn videos.



The industry started a lie and spun it out of all control. Non exclusive was saturated. It was told over and over again until all the affiliates believed it and the industry has suffered.

If it was saturated it would of meant it was sold over and over again and for photographers would of been very profitable. But so many of these shooters were unable to make a living shooting for a content store or even for brokering they moved to shooting custom for low prices or got out completely. If non exclusive is saturated in a members area it means the site is successful signing members and keeps buying more and more from the same suppliers. You can't saturate a product that does not sell. Unless you buy a blow out 20 others bought and give it to affiliates. Then it's saturated on TGPs.

So the money that could be spent by content providers shooting for themselves was limited and that hurt members area. Led to people who could not shoot pointing cameras at naked people. Not porn that sells.

Anyone who thinks shooting with a HD camera is a solution is IMO a fool or trying to push a fact that counts nothing to the porn consumers. For many niches HD is very wrong.

To get good sales you have to have something good to sell.

I know many people uses to slam you on points I think they're quite valid. And these are quite valid points. I know nothing about selling content to magazines, but I assume that's a good aditional income. However, that applies to content (mainly), and even though content is key, the perception of what content is is one of the main factors to get out of the loop.

As for niches, as I mentioned and Naja-ram agrees, most content nowadays is crap, mainly because it's shot in bulk and the same people shots every single niche out there without having a slight idea of the niche itself. An example including myself: when I shot content, I was requested some smoking niche content. I said "sure, let's make the girls fuck and include cigarettes, blunts, whatever". Well, I was soooooo off base it was embarrassing. After that, with some knowledge about specific fetishes I decided to explore what's about every single niche I'd think off. I made a lot of research, made polls, studied consumer trends and noticed one of the main points business is falling is because most content is off niche. At least 50% of the paysites are selling ice to eskimos.

So I know when it comes to teens you're one of the best out there, no matter how much people slams you. Personally, I never understood the "exclusive vs non-exclusive" thing. Unless content shooters are shooting very "on niche" content, it's easier to find non-exclusive content that converts better, especially if we're talking of fetishes and some mainstream niches (anal niche sites are the first that comes to my mind. with just a couple changes they could improve conversions greatly). And shooting in HD isn't bad, if the content is good a better format will be better. If the content is bad, it's better to shot it with "amateurish" look, so at least it's explained by the amateur spirit.

Anyway, content is just the tip of the iceberg. I need to keep working for my clients, but if I find time I'll write something more complete since I can see many people is like "doh?" (Homer Simpson "absolutely lost" face)

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by harvey

I posted this here



Not too much to say on my side, I admit it. I was tired and really amazed/outraged on some things that were said in that thread. 6 pages of CRYING AND NONSENSE and still growing. 6 pages which contains data and people trying to justify data (I mean like in OBJECTIVE NUMBERS) with absurd perceptions about why objectivity is subjective, or in other words, why "reality isn't happening"!

Well, guess what: IT'S HAPPENING. Hide your head in the sand if you want and get fucked in the ass in the process. But pretty, pretty, pretty please: STOP CRYING! If you chose to DO NOTHING, you're free to do it, just don't complain because you don't want to face reality.

If you didn't stop to think yet, start right now. Be creative, think outside the box. If you need help, get it. If you gotta pay for it, PAY IT (it will be less than what you already lost for sure, and much less than all what you will lose). If you need to take a weekend with other webmasters to the sole purpose of discussing strategies and/or network, DO IT.

Now, if you think the adult content delivery is limited to what you were doing for the last 15 years... well, you're so totally wrong and off base it's not even funny. Magazines are disappearing, and so will you if you persist on the same path. If you think the word marketing means "buy beers and post at GFY", well... you're getting what you deserve. Things have changed, like it or not.

If you took a big uppercut in your jaw, it's pretty understandable if you take some time to get yourself together. But after that, stand up and fight or run your way home, but pretty, pretty, pretty please: JUST STOP CRYING!!!!

old article about q ratio
http://www.allbusiness.com/marketing...4692004-1.html

this q-ratio is significantly more complex, having 50 gradient characteristics to take into account.

i don't like their dollar valuation that they do in the article is but as a metric to compare product placement in one medium/method to another it a very good metric.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by harvey

I know many people uses to slam you on points I think they're quite valid. And these are quite valid points. I know nothing about selling content to magazines, but I assume that's a good aditional income. However, that applies to content (mainly), and even though content is key, the perception of what content is is one of the main factors to get out of the loop.

I have never cared a lot about what people say about my posts. Most of them are webmasters commenting on content. The position of the industry is not due to people following my advice.

As for niches, as I mentioned and Naja-ram agrees, most content nowadays is crap, mainly because it's shot in bulk and the same people shots every single niche out there without having a slight idea of the niche itself. An example including myself: when I shot content, I was requested some smoking niche content. I said "sure, let's make the girls fuck and include cigarettes, blunts, whatever". Well, I was soooooo off base it was embarrassing. After that, with some knowledge about specific fetishes I decided to explore what's about every single niche I'd think off. I made a lot of research, made polls, studied consumer trends and noticed one of the main points business is falling is because most content is off niche. At least 50% of the paysites are selling ice to eskimos.

The content of a site is the entire members area. Pictures and videos are a large part.

This is always true, "You get what you pay for." and "If you pay peanuts you get monkeys."

And this industry in the main was never prepared to spend the money required to get good or great content Please will no one point out the exceptions to try and prove me wrong. Often the only thing that mattered was the price and quantity they were getting. So we ended up filling sites with lots of poor content, some sites left it at the amount they had in the beginning and some added new. But often it was lots of new content no different than what was already there.

None of this has anything to do with the availability of good shooters. They just would not work for the money most were prepared to pay. $1500 for 5 solo girl videos and sets is a joke. Especially when the idiots paying it ask for exclusive or new girls that the good shooters can shoot for a day ad make $6,000 and more and keep ownership of the content.

So I know when it comes to teens you're one of the best out there, no matter how much people slams you. Personally, I never understood the "exclusive vs non-exclusive" thing. Unless content shooters are shooting very "on niche" content, it's easier to find non-exclusive content that converts better, especially if we're talking of fetishes and some mainstream niches (anal niche sites are the first that comes to my mind. with just a couple changes they could improve conversions greatly). And shooting in HD isn't bad, if the content is good a better format will be better. If the content is bad, it's better to shot it with "amateurish" look, so at least it's explained by the amateur spirit.

I'm no longer the best out there. Not shot for years and Eva has been the shooter i my place. What I do know is if these other guys are so good why are they not selling to magazines?

The "exclusive vs non-exclusive" is down to in the beginning there were so few people producing content for the Net and a lot of it was all over the place. The reason was simple, sponsors could not or would not pay enough for content. The prices and deals offered were a joke and I started a content store instead. And I'm not unique on this. There were and still are hundreds of great shooters with filing cabinets of great content ready for sale. But not at the price being offered.

There is no shortage of great porn content, just a shortage of people who can afford it.

Then there is the situation of programmers don't always make good judges when buying porn.

Add to this the sales line to affiliates that content had to be exclusive and you had a recipe for poor, small, bland sites that needed a ton of new traffic every day to make it work.

Amateur is tough to shoot properly. A shooter is trying to get a performance from a model that looks like it's being done for real and the fun of it. Tough thing to achieve when the only reason both are there is to make money. Most think amateur is an excuse for bad.

[raven1083]

some words out there are true

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

There is no shortage of great porn content, just a shortage of people who can afford it.

So true nig.

So true....

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by mrfrisky

Sig spottin.

Btw people should really try and use the wird illegal tubes instead of tubes in general.

And: im still convinced "my kinda tube setup" is biting little chunks oug of the illigal tubes traffic. Lot of sponsors already notuced it and are already cooperating with us.

Said it long time ago, either act up or...

No offense to anyone, but its still funny im gettibg attacked by some instead of being supportef for sticking my neck out ;)

Why illegal? Do you have any proof they are illegal since nobody else does? Maybe they should refer to those tubes as "big tubes" and yours as "small tube".?

And to bite chunks out of their traffic implies they are now receiving less traffic since your site began, people have jumped ship from tube8 to oneclicktube have they.

Your site gets its traffic from link dumps and has no affect on the big tubes.

[San]

cliff notes plox?

[JFK]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

Tube sites killed Michael Jackson

damn it, I knew it