MGM going broke - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

Nautilus · 11-17-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

go after the leacher without fair use rights.

And how exactly are we supposed to go after that leacher if his IP address is the only proof we have to show in court? He can always say "my dog did it not me" and get away with it.

TheLegacy · 11-17-2009, 09:23 AM

Well if we believe the numbers - the adult industry should buy MGM - that should put a twist to the 2257 lawyers

GatorB · 11-17-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

The copyright/anti-piracy/anti-theft laws have to catch up with the technology.

Anyone that has ever created content knows exactly what I am speaking about...

ADG

The first thing is regular people don't care about copyright. Now it doesn't help to get them to care when content producers constantly lobby Congress to make it difficult for people to enjoy the content they purchased and keep getting copyright rights extended to ridiculously lengthy terms. Copyright was never meant to be perpetual. In fact originaly it was 14 years. Now it's 95 years or 70 years after the death of the creator if it's a person and not a coproration. Should I seriously have to wait until 2059 to use a Irving Berlin song from 1923 without having to ask permission and pay compensation because the fucker decided to live to 101? Why should I have to compensate his great great great grandchildren that weren't even born before he died?

Back in the 70's copyright was a max of 56 years. It was 28 years then you could get it extended another 28 if you informed the copyright office before the original 28 years was up. That MORE than enough time to make money off your work. Honestly I wouldn't make it more than 50 years.

If a buy a movie should I have to buy a copy for every device I might have? If I have 3 TVs each with a DVD player why shouldn't I be able to make 2 copies for the other 2 players without having to get some software to break encrytption? I have a PSP so why can't I make a copy so I can watch the movie on that? I've already paid for the movie must I HAVE to purchase an additonal copy at FULL PRICE just to have one for my PSP? Come on.

See it's stuff like that that turns normal people into pirates because once they have to do all that shit just to get full use of purchased content it's not that far of a leap for them to think "Hey why should I pay for it at all". Even movies that come with a digital copy limit the number of devices it can be on. What if I get a new computer? Listen I've already paid for your content now you are just going to have to trust me that if you remove the restrictions I am not going to make 1000 copies for all my friends out there. Because seriously if I wanted to do that I could do it anyways DRM or not. It's not a coincidence that much more legal digital music is being purchased since the record lables removed DRM

DamianJ · 11-17-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

If you understood even the basics of statistics you'd understand you don't need a HUGE sample to get accurate stats. For example a CNN exit poll of 18,000 voters in the 2008 election showed that 53% of the people responding voted for Obama. Overall Obama won 53% of the vote. Hmmm. Funny how just 18,000 votes exactly predicted the results of 125 million votes. That's 1/7 of 1%

Fuck me sideways. You are Captain Straw Man, aren't you?

Who said small samples of stats were irrelevant? No one.

You said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

I have said all along to everyone I know, if you like a TV show, watch it. Watch it when it is on. Don't Tivo it, don't download it, watch it.

And I said that is a silly thing to say, because unless you have a Neilson box it will make no difference whatsoever to viewing figures. Will it?

Sigh.

gideongallery · 11-17-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

That's a load of crap and you know it. Recording a TV on your DVR is TOTALLY different than sharing it on a torrent site. Your "right" to time shift doesn't give you a right to share that content. By the way ther are 2 great site to watch Heroes online LEGALLY they are called Hulu.com and NBC.com. If you want a copy to keep and you don't have a DVR or whatever then you pay purchase a comercial free digital copy from many places including amazon, itunes, XBL and PSN for $2, $3 for HD. Or you can go to wally world and buy the DVD of the whole season.

ZERO excuse to go to a torrent site.

1. hulu and nbc don't work in canada
2. there is no justification to force me to pay for the content twice

i bought a right to view on monday, and the court gave me the right to move that viewing to tuesday if i cant.

your arguement is an attempt to deny me the rights i currently have, to be forced to use an inferior technology to aquire those rights.

OH and btw i am never giving anyone a single working copy of the file, so even that act is covered by cache fair use.

gideongallery · 11-17-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nautilus

And how exactly are we supposed to go after that leacher if his IP address is the only proof we have to show in court? He can always say "my dog did it not me" and get away with it.

hire a good lawyer
subpoena his computer
actually find your file on his machine

pay the fine if you don't for the privacy violation (assuming you go after a canadian or any other country with good privacy laws)

repeat until you find an actual infringer

kane · 11-17-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

bullshit

fair use is a law granted right too, free speech also apply to things like parodies and commentaries. the copyright act never intended to make copyright exclusive rights to be an absolute monopoly, it was and has always been a conditional monopoly., those sites serve both the legitimate purpose (fair use) and the illegitimate purpose at the same time.

Going after the people who don't have a fair use right only fair solution.
Reclasifying the entire site as "allow(ing) people to steal coprighted material" just because some people use the site in that way is just plain bullshit.

name one torrent site that explictly says on their terms and conditions that they are there to steal copyright material

show me one torrent site where you have the ability to tell torrent site that you are putting up the torrent specifically to steal

You can't

your rationalizing your justification to keep a false analog.

Your analog justifies going after the murder who uses the gun to kill someone which is exactly what i am advocating when i keep saying
leave the seeder alone
leave the tracker alone
leave the leacher with fair use right alone
go after the leacher without fair use rights.

and trying to justify going after the tracker (walmart) by creating a situation which has no bases in reality at all.

50% of all torrent traffic is tv shows,

timeshifting is a right that was established some 24 years ago.

most of the movies on trackers are older aired on tv movies (again covered by timeshifting)

every seeder (50% of the transactions) can argue based on the technical specs that they are creating a back up

when i download heroes from the torrent sites i am timeshifing the show from monday to tuesday

when i seed dr who blink i do so with the intent of being able to get it back when i want to watch that episode again (backup and recovery)

add it content covered by piracy tax and authorized by the intrinsic conditions of a binding contract (offer acceptance and consideration) and a majority of torrents traffic are taking content they have a right to take.

The only way you can make the arguement is to ignore the fair use as a technicality that people are hiding behind.

Which by it very nature eliminates the legitimate use of the technology. IT denies me the ability to use torrents as the perfect pvr (infinite storage, never misses a show, never cut out becuase of power outages, always available).

you keep pointing to sites and argue that the vocal few represent the majority, bullshit
many people are just like me, using the torrents for what they should be used as timeshifting/back up and recovery.

Who don't take a single file that they have not bought a right too.

i don't condone either mistaken opinion

I have always said that I don't care if people download TV shows, just understand that if you do download a TV show and it get canceled, you can't complain. If you like the show, watch it and support it.

This will be my final reply to all of this, clearly we aren't going to change each other's minds.

Here is your proof.

go tohttp://www.mininova.org/ and select movies (http://www.mininova.org/cat-list/4 is the url) Sort by number of leechers.

In the top 25 results every movie listed there is either still only available in theaters or it is out of theaters and not yet on DVD. The top movie on the list, 2012, just opened this weekend. That means that every one of the 80,000+ leechers is breaking the law. Every one of them is illegally downloading the movie. All the owner of the site has to do is look at this page and know that his site is being used for illegal activity. If someone uploads that torrent to the site they know they are doing so illegally.

Do you really think that somehow these 80,000 people have gotten an option to early purchase a copy of this movie on DVD and are just backing it up?

gideongallery · 11-17-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

I have always said that I don't care if people download TV shows, just understand that if you do download a TV show and it get canceled, you can't complain. If you like the show, watch it and support it.

This will be my final reply to all of this, clearly we aren't going to change each other's minds.

Here is your proof.

go tohttp://www.mininova.org/ and select movies (http://www.mininova.org/cat-list/4 is the url) Sort by number of leechers.

In the top 25 results every movie listed there is either still only available in theaters or it is out of theaters and not yet on DVD. The top movie on the list, 2012, just opened this weekend. That means that every one of the 80,000+ leechers is breaking the law. Every one of them is illegally downloading the movie. All the owner of the site has to do is look at this page and know that his site is being used for illegal activity. If someone uploads that torrent to the site they know they are doing so illegally.

Do you really think that somehow these 80,000 people have gotten an option to early purchase a copy of this movie on DVD and are just backing it up?

again it depends on the jurisdiction the court case that established the foundation of access shifting has happened in the EU, mininova is covered by those laws, so no they are not

many countries don't have an anti camming laws so their is no restriction in the recording which means timeshifting rights could be extended.

sure some countries have a problem and again
you should go after the leechers in that case, but an international organization like mininova has to care about servicing the rights of all potential views (including those that live in a country where access shifting has been established and the movie was not shown = no lost sale)

gideongallery · 11-17-2009, 04:38 PM

and let not forget some countries have piracy taxes for all media not just music so for those countries that download is not a violation but simple a contractually paid for distribution. (offer acceptance and consideration)

Nautilus · 11-17-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

hire a good lawyer
subpoena his computer
actually find your file on his machine

pay the fine if you don't for the privacy violation (assuming you go after a canadian or any other country with good privacy laws)

repeat until you find an actual infringer

Lol that kind of non-enforceable copyright laws is exactly what we need, so you worthless dumb motherfucking leeches who cannot create anything original could keep on running your godawful torrent sites stealing other people's work and yet having an excuse "we're covered go after the bad leecher".

Not going to happen. Sooner or later you'll get what you deserve and go back to flipping burgers, the only thing you're good for.

kane · 11-18-2009, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

hire a good lawyer
subpoena his computer
actually find your file on his machine

pay the fine if you don't for the privacy violation (assuming you go after a canadian or any other country with good privacy laws)

repeat until you find an actual infringer

So it is ok for the copyright owner to have to jump through a bunch of hoops and go to a great expense to protect his rights, but it isn't okay for a site owner to have to jump through hoops and make sure they have permission to post the torrents to copyrighted material.

Sounds like a double standard to me.

And of course when the RIAA actually follows your advice, gets a lawyer and goes after a downloader you scream bloody murder.

kane · 11-18-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

and let not forget some countries have piracy taxes for all media not just music so for those countries that download is not a violation but simple a contractually paid for distribution. (offer acceptance and consideration)

Then use htaccess or something like it block access to your site that doesn't have piracy tax or access shifting.

Nautilus · 11-18-2009, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

And of course when the RIAA actually follows your advice, gets a lawyer and goes after a downloader you scream bloody murder.

CarlosTheGaucho · 11-18-2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

We have been through all of this before. There are always exceptions to the rule. Many people argue that Dane Cook got huge because he was able to use Myspace as a way to get a ton of fans and he was able to turn those fans into people who bought his album and went to see him live. Tila Tequlia is another example of someone who made a lot of money just using Myspace and an online presence and it led to bigger things for her.

But when you remove the few exceptions most of these people are nothing more than glorified garage bands. I don't mean that in a bad way. There are small lesser known acts that I really like. There are bands that only put out 1 or 2 albums and never made it big, but I still love those albums. There are small underground acts that I really enjoy and yet they have never gotten big and most likely never will. This type of thing existed long before the internet.

What it comes down to is your ability to monetize your success while you have it. The half life of a band is about 5 years. Chances are if you haven't made it in 5 years, you won't. If you have made it, the odds of your success lasting more than 5 years is very limited. Times change, musical trends change and tastes and fads come and go. A few survive and most don't. It was that way before the internet, it is still that way wth the internet. If you go to a band and you tell them, "You can sign with a major label and they will ass rape you and you will never see a dime from record sales beyond your initial advance, but they will put a ton of money behind your publicity, you will have a couple of top 10 singles, work your ass off and within in year you will be headlining 3000-5000 seat venues and making millions on the road, or you can release the music yourself online, give it away for free and what you do sell you get to keep 90% of the profits from and in a few years you will still be playing clubs for 150-200 people and still holding a part time job when you aren't touring." Which do you think they would take?

I'm not saying the music labels are the be all end all. I'm not saying they have the best taste. I'm simply saying that when the music business becomes a free business where everyone releases their stuff for free and they hope to make money down the road touring, selling merchandise or whatever you are going to see a huge influx of people flooding the market with their stuff, and most of it is going to be garbage. There will be no filter and the consumer/fans will be left to sift through it on their own. Sure there will be magazines and web sites that will review it and help you find stuff you like, but most music buyers don't work that way. Most music buyers hear it on the radio and go buy it or download it. They don't have the interest in reading or researching stuff. Like always, there are exceptions to that rule and you and I are among those exceptions. But here is food for thought. Of the ten people that I consider to be close friends I am the only one who reads any kind of music magazines or websites. I am the only one of them that researches music and tries new stuff. The other nine all either hear it on the radio and buy it/download it or they just listen to something they already have. when I ask them why they don't look for something new that they might be into almost without fail they tell me it is because they have better things to do. Music, sadly, is an art of convenience and record labels help to facilitate that convenience for those who want it.

Great post

DamianJ · 11-18-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

I have always said that I don't care if people download TV shows, just understand that if you do download a TV show and it get canceled, you can't complain. If you like the show, watch it and support it.

As I asked you yesterday, how do you think the TV networks will know if you watched a show if you aren't one of a handful of Neilson homes exactly?

GatorB · 11-18-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

As I asked you yesterday, how do you think the TV networks will know if you watched a show if you aren't one of a handful of Neilson homes exactly?

Well NBC has thing called NBC Direct which actually allows you to download episodes onto your PC for later viewing even offline. Obviously you can only watch the videos for a limited time. I believe it's 30 days for most shows. But let's face it that's plenty of time to watch it. So why wouldn't you just download a NBC show from NBC.com, that way they WOULD know exactly how popular a show is? I know the reason. The reason is because with a torrent you get to keep the copy forever and it's free. Because let's face it $2( $3 for HD ) is sooooo much money to spend. The fact is this isn't a few years ago. There are PLENTY of LEGAL and FREE ways to catch up on a missed episode of a show without having to use a torrent. The differnce as I said you don't get to KEEP the episode. And face it if you like the episode that much that you just have to have it, guess what, it's worth the $2-$3 then.

gideongallery · 11-18-2009, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nautilus

Lol that kind of non-enforceable copyright laws is exactly what we need, so you worthless dumb motherfucking leeches who cannot create anything original could keep on running your godawful torrent sites stealing other people's work and yet having an excuse "we're covered go after the bad leecher".

Not going to happen. Sooner or later you'll get what you deserve and go back to flipping burgers, the only thing you're good for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

So it is ok for the copyright owner to have to jump through a bunch of hoops and go to a great expense to protect his rights, but it isn't okay for a site owner to have to jump through hoops and make sure they have permission to post the torrents to copyrighted material.

Sounds like a double standard to me.

And of course when the RIAA actually follows your advice, gets a lawyer and goes after a downloader you scream bloody murder.

absolutely because as a copyright holder you only have your exclusive right because you agreed (within the act) to respect fair use.

if you don't want to fulfill the fair use responsiblity your self you should have to jump thru hoops when you might infringe on those previously agreed fair uses.

Of course you can avoid the entire set of hoops by simply giving people the life time timeshifting/backup recover rights (ie set up a private tracker).

gideongallery · 11-18-2009, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Well NBC has thing called NBC Direct which actually allows you to download episodes onto your PC for later viewing even offline. Obviously you can only watch the videos for a limited time. I believe it's 30 days for most shows. But let's face it that's plenty of time to watch it. So why wouldn't you just download a NBC show from NBC.com, that way they WOULD know exactly how popular a show is? I know the reason. The reason is because with a torrent you get to keep the copy forever and it's free. Because let's face it $2( $3 for HD ) is sooooo much money to spend. The fact is this isn't a few years ago. There are PLENTY of LEGAL and FREE ways to catch up on a missed episode of a show without having to use a torrent. The differnce as I said you don't get to KEEP the episode. And face it if you like the episode that much that you just have to have it, guess what, it's worth the $2-$3 then.

so with a vcr i could keep a show i wanted to watch forever, but with the new technology i have to pay for the same fucking right.

my god how stupid to you have to be to not understand how fundamentally wrong that arguement is.

i should not have to lose timeshifting rights previously granted with the better technology.

gideongallery · 11-18-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

As I asked you yesterday, how do you think the TV networks will know if you watched a show if you aren't one of a handful of Neilson homes exactly?

btw this is one of the way an embrace the technology solution would solve the problem
setting up a private tracker for subcribers would count every person who timeshifted the content. not using the statistically sampling model of neilson families.

Dollarmansteve · 11-18-2009, 09:11 AM

This might be a little off topic, but if anyone has ever worked in the mainstream film production business (ie not adult content), it is one of the most bloated, cost-heavy, wasteful industries on earth.

On top of that, powerful unions control all labour, from actors to grips.

Production companies spare no expense. I've seen companies rent a $10 broom for $20 a day - for a month. Like government-level wasteful spending. Not to mention the executives who feed at the trough.

I'm not shedding a tear for MGM, they had a good run, the world of media is changing. This is not an endorsement of piracy, but the value-add in content is definitely shifting.

gideongallery · 11-18-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

Then use htaccess or something like it block access to your site that doesn't have piracy tax or access shifting.

won't work as a canadian i have the right no matter where i access the site from

if i bounce down to the states i still have the right to timeshift every episode of dragon's den canada even though my cable bill is being paid in canada and i am not in my home to record (and therefore watch the show)

if you blocked by region you would deny me my rights.

so again your solution doesn't work

btw a private tracker solution would work (if it was setup by cbc).

Nautilus · 11-18-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

Of course you can avoid the entire set of hoops by simply giving people the life time timeshifting/backup recover rights (ie set up a private tracker).

Yeah and of course all of the thieving sites will suddenly stop posting our content because we have that private tracker. And of course all of them bad leechers will "honorably" stop downloading our videos because we fulfilled our obligations under the copyright law.

Sure that's what is going to happen, because all of you monthefucking thieves are doing it only because you want to provide your users with what's rightfully theirs, timeshifting whatever. Not because you want to profit from other people's work, you're only doing it for principle. As soos as we have a private tracker, all links to our videos on thieving sites will magically dissappear. What a fucking great plan.

gideongallery · 11-18-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nautilus

Yeah and of course all of the thieving sites will suddenly stop posting our content because we have that private tracker. And of course all of them bad leechers will "honorably" stop downloading our videos because we fulfilled our obligations under the copyright law.

Sure that's what is going to happen, because all of you monthefucking thieves are doing it only because you want to provide your users with what's rightfully theirs, timeshifting whatever. Not because you want to profit from other people's work, you're only doing it for principle. As soos as we have a private tracker, all links to our videos on thieving sites will magically dissappear. What a fucking great plan.

if you do it right you

1. create a liability that is outside the scope of the fair use defence (and therefore outside the scope of safe harbor)
2. slow the download speeds to a crawl for the illegal torrents

so yes for the most part it will stop the illegal downloads

their may be leachers who are willing to wait months or years to get a file but for the most part not really.

just because your to stupid to understand the way torrents work, and how a private tracker is really a solution does mean it won't work

it just means your to stupid to know how to make it work.

96ukssob · 11-18-2009, 11:21 AM

Sad, but I do think they have a few options.

I remember reading years ago there was a potential "home theater" device that would allow you to watch newly released movies from the theaters in your home for a premium.

the problem was that you could hook up any DVD or computer to it, but recently I think its been brought back up again with ONLY having an HDMI output, which 99% of people dont have an easy way to take HDMI into a DVR or computer... give it a year and you will see stores flooded with them.

personally, id pay $25 to see a first run movie from my house rather than going to the theater. not because im lazy, but i cant stand paying $20 for 2 people to see a movie and have to hear some annoying shit head behind me comment or laugh loudly at every scene

Nautilus · 11-18-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

2. slow the download speeds to a crawl for the illegal torrents

Wow what an almighty good ole me, stop download speeds at TPB, isohunt and thousand of others that have gazillions of users connected through gazillion channels. That is so within my scoop of capabilities.

DamianJ · 11-18-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Well NBC has thing called NBC Direct. SNIP pointless straw man argument AGAIN

Are you actually mentally ill?

You told people to watch tv shows live so the don't get cancelled.

Right? (Has to be right, you've said it twice so far in this thread)

I then asked you, really simply, how the ratings company would know if you had watched it live or not.

Rather than answer my VERY simple question, you go off on a rant about NBConline?

Let's rewind...

You're encouraging people to watch TV shows live EVEN if they do not have Neilson boxes in order to stop networks cancelling shows when you say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

I have said all along to everyone I know, if you like a TV show, watch it. Watch it when it is on. Don't Tivo it, don't download it, watch it.

But, you know (or maybe you don't) that it will make FUCK ALL difference if you watch it live or not. Viewing figures are based on ONLY houses with Neilson boxes.

So you are being very silly.

You then combat me pointing this stupidity out by ranting about NBConline downloads? What the fuck has that got to do with the price of fish?

I can draw a picture if you are still stuggling, let me know.

xx

kane · 11-18-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

As I asked you yesterday, how do you think the TV networks will know if you watched a show if you aren't one of a handful of Neilson homes exactly?

Sorry, I didn't see your question yesterday or I would have answered. The way I understand it the Neilson's are one way they collect ratings data, but they also collect data through some cable providers. If you have digital cable and a cable box the cable company and tell from that what you are watching and they relay that information back to networks.

Obviously, they don't know every single person who is watching a show, but from what I understand their methods are pretty accurate.

I know they also now take into consideration those that watch the show on their websites. While those views don't count towards the ratings and the online shows usually have a lot less commercials they can take the number of online views into consideration.

There have been shows that have had terrible ratings (for example one of the shows I am a fan of called Friday Night Lights), but then they find out that the show has a large following on Tivo/DVR and they cut a deal of some sort to keep it around. In the case of Friday Night Lights they sold Direct TV exclusive rights to it. Direct TV airs the shows then when the season is done on Direct TV they air them on regular broadcast TV. Under normal circumstances, and in most cases, the show would have been canceled, but the fans of this show are very passionate and really voiced their support. There have been shows that have had bad ratings, but did get a lot of people recording it and they still canceled it because the networks are not in the good show business, they are in the advertising delivery business. If people don't watch and support the shows they like, they will go away.

Sorry for the long answer

kane · 11-18-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

if you do it right you

1. create a liability that is outside the scope of the fair use defence (and therefore outside the scope of safe harbor)
2. slow the download speeds to a crawl for the illegal torrents

so yes for the most part it will stop the illegal downloads

their may be leachers who are willing to wait months or years to get a file but for the most part not really.

just because your to stupid to understand the way torrents work, and how a private tracker is really a solution does mean it won't work

it just means your to stupid to know how to make it work.

But how do you know which torrents are illegal. You yourself make the argument that the websites have no idea who has legal rights to download this material and who doesn't and you don't want them to be forced to have any responsibility in determining that so how can they determine if a torrent is illegal?

DamianJ · 11-18-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

If people don't watch and support the shows they like, they will go away.

That just isn't true. Your understanding of how ratings work is wrong, at best. But carry on telling people to watch Entourage live if you like. If you want to learn how it works: http://www.howstuffworks.com/question433.htm

GatorB · 11-18-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

Are you actually mentally ill?

WTF is your issue?

Quote:

You told people to watch tv shows live so the don't get cancelled.

Nope KANE did. Quote me where I stated that.

Quote:

Right? (Has to be right, you've said it twice so far in this thread)

Nope I never said it once. KANE did. Once again quote me.

Quote:

I then asked you, really simply, how the ratings company would know if you had watched it live or not.

No you didn't ask ME you asked KANE.

Quote:

Rather than answer my VERY simple question, you go off on a rant about NBConline?

Let's rewind...

You're encouraging people to watch TV shows live EVEN if they do not have Neilson boxes in order to stop networks cancelling shows when you say:

But, you know (or maybe you don't) that it will make FUCK ALL difference if you watch it live or not. Viewing figures are based on ONLY houses with Neilson boxes.

So you are being very silly.

You then combat me pointing this stupidity out by ranting about NBConline downloads? What the fuck has that got to do with the price of fish?

I can draw a picture if you are still stuggling, let me know.

xx

How about you actually learn to respond to the proper people before questioning someone else's intelligence.

Oh and about the NBC Direct is has everything to do with this. If you are illegally downloading a TV show because you want to watch when you want well NBC Direct allows you to do that LEGALLY. I'm not sure which part is hard to get. Which color crayon is easiest for you to read?

kane · 11-18-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

That just isn't true. Your understanding of how ratings work is wrong, at best. But carry on telling people to watch Entourage live if you like. If you want to learn how it works: http://www.howstuffworks.com/question433.htm

How is what is on that page different from what I have said? I said they use the Neilson system. That page describes how the Neilson system works. They also use some information they get directly from cable companies. Don't believe me? Do a little research.

Here is an article about some markets getting something called people meter.
http://cbs13.com/goodquestion/sweeps....2.848436.html

These guys seem to also say that companies like Charter Cable are providing information on ratings.
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5318571_tv...alculated.html

As for online views, one of the main reasons that many networks are now showing their shows online is so people can watch them and they can still sell advertising on them. They would rather you see a few minutes of ads during a show you watch online then have you download a commercial free version of the show or Tivo it and fast forward past the commercials..

With on-demand services becoming more and more popular many networks are also taking those numbers into consideration.

As for Entourage, it is on HBO which is a paid service. They don't care as much about "overnight" ratings because they air the show multiple times during each week. I read recently that True Blood had about 10 times as many people watching it on-demand as they did watching the new episodes live. NBC is in the advertising delivery business. HBO is in the content subscription business. It is two different things.

Let me revise my statement. If you like a show and that show is on broadcast TV or on a basic cable channel, watching it live when it airs in the best way to support it. If they have it on-demand or on their website watching it there is the next best way to support it. DVR/Tivoing it or downloading it is basically worthless when it comes to ratings.

gideongallery · 11-19-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

Sorry, I didn't see your question yesterday or I would have answered. The way I understand it the Neilson's are one way they collect ratings data, but they also collect data through some cable providers. If you have digital cable and a cable box the cable company and tell from that what you are watching and they relay that information back to networks.

Obviously, they don't know every single person who is watching a show, but from what I understand their methods are pretty accurate.

I know they also now take into consideration those that watch the show on their websites. While those views don't count towards the ratings and the online shows usually have a lot less commercials they can take the number of online views into consideration.

There have been shows that have had terrible ratings (for example one of the shows I am a fan of called Friday Night Lights), but then they find out that the show has a large following on Tivo/DVR and they cut a deal of some sort to keep it around. In the case of Friday Night Lights they sold Direct TV exclusive rights to it. Direct TV airs the shows then when the season is done on Direct TV they air them on regular broadcast TV. Under normal circumstances, and in most cases, the show would have been canceled, but the fans of this show are very passionate and really voiced their support. There have been shows that have had bad ratings, but did get a lot of people recording it and they still canceled it because the networks are not in the good show business, they are in the advertising delivery business. If people don't watch and support the shows they like, they will go away.

Sorry for the long answer

neilson has some data purchasing deals with SOME cable companies to increase their sample size, but because of privacy issues it not as wide spread as you think it is.

they still have the statistical sampling issues that why they still declare 19/20 statistical correctness on al their numbers.

pvr recording an later view don't count to neilson ratings, no advertiser pays for those views (except for product placement)

so that arguement is flawed because the current fact that people timeshift shows is what is killing shows (timeshifted to death)

picking one timeshifting method (torrents) and blaming them exclusively is a strawman agruement, quite simply i don't have the time to watch the show live anyway so if torrents disappeared

the sickening part is that torrents can give your a real count not statistical sampling, the technology by it very nature reports the number of seeds (completed downloads) so it much better at getting you the product placement views for full sponsorship.

gideongallery · 11-19-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

But how do you know which torrents are illegal. You yourself make the argument that the websites have no idea who has legal rights to download this material and who doesn't and you don't want them to be forced to have any responsibility in determining that so how can they determine if a torrent is illegal?

what exactly about

Quote:

create a liability that is outside the scope of the fair use defence (and therefore outside the scope of safe harbor)

do you not understand.

i private tracker if done correctly makes every other torrent liable
it also makes every other torrent painfully inefficent at all legitimate purposes (timeshifting, backup recovery) which means it is natually going to reduce usefulness of that torrent too (ala waiting 6 months to download a tv show because the torrent is go god awful slow)

gideongallery · 11-19-2009, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nautilus

Wow what an almighty good ole me, stop download speeds at TPB, isohunt and thousand of others that have gazillions of users connected through gazillion channels. That is so within my scoop of capabilities.

ah i see your an idiot who doesn't understand how bit torrent works

i get carry on making idiotic statements that only prove how stupid you are

or start reading about the spec and then come back when you understand enough to talk about it intelligently.

Hint Popularity is a virtue
key things about a private tracker can make it the swarm speed way faster
people want to get the stuff faster so they will always choose the fastest download
by giving people the choice they will naturally gravitate toward the faster one
which by the very nature of the protocol will make the rejected ones slower, and the faster one even faster.
no public tracker can duplicate swarm speed of a well tuned private tracker (well it can with shear volume but it 13254:1 multipilier)

gideongallery · 11-23-2009, 06:26 PM

and if you want another example of the screw job of the music industry
lady gaga poker face played over a million times she got a whopping $167
after the record company takes their cut

an independent artist with no record company gets $0.03 per play.

so if they have the same success they earn $30,000 and if they wanted to make the same money they would only have to be 0.6% as successful.

http://torrentfreak.com/spotify-isnt...ls-are-091123/

Mock NyaMout · 11-23-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gideongallery

and if you want another example of the screw job of the music industry
lady gaga poker face played over a million times she got a whopping $167
after the record company takes their cut

an independent artist with no record company gets $0.03 per play.

so if they have the same success they earn $30,000 and if they wanted to make the same money they would only have to be 0.6% as successful.

http://torrentfreak.com/spotify-isnt...ls-are-091123/

Where are these stats coming from ?

11-17-2009, 09:23 AM	#152
TheLegacy SEO Connoisseur Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Brantford, Ontario Posts: 16,376	Well if we believe the numbers - the adult industry should buy MGM - that should put a twist to the 2257 lawyers __________________ SEO Connoisseur Microsoft Teams: Robert Warren SEO Telegram: @TheLegacy54 RobertWarrenSEO.com

11-17-2009, 04:38 PM	#159
gideongallery Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 7,082	and let not forget some countries have piracy taxes for all media not just music so for those countries that download is not a violation but simple a contractually paid for distribution. (offer acceptance and consideration) __________________ “When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak

11-18-2009, 09:11 AM	#170
Dollarmansteve Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Location: T.O. Posts: 2,849	This might be a little off topic, but if anyone has ever worked in the mainstream film production business (ie not adult content), it is one of the most bloated, cost-heavy, wasteful industries on earth. On top of that, powerful unions control all labour, from actors to grips. Production companies spare no expense. I've seen companies rent a $10 broom for $20 a day - for a month. Like government-level wasteful spending. Not to mention the executives who feed at the trough. I'm not shedding a tear for MGM, they had a good run, the world of media is changing. This is not an endorsement of piracy, but the value-add in content is definitely shifting. __________________ I died.

11-18-2009, 11:21 AM	#174
96ukssob So Fucking Banananananas Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: If I was in your ass you'd know it Posts: 12,991	Sad, but I do think they have a few options. I remember reading years ago there was a potential "home theater" device that would allow you to watch newly released movies from the theaters in your home for a premium. the problem was that you could hook up any DVD or computer to it, but recently I think its been brought back up again with ONLY having an HDMI output, which 99% of people dont have an easy way to take HDMI into a DVR or computer... give it a year and you will see stores flooded with them. personally, id pay $25 to see a first run movie from my house rather than going to the theater. not because im lazy, but i cant stand paying $20 for 2 people to see a movie and have to hear some annoying shit head behind me comment or laugh loudly at every scene __________________ Email: Clicky on Me

11-23-2009, 06:26 PM	#185
gideongallery Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 7,082	and if you want another example of the screw job of the music industry lady gaga poker face played over a million times she got a whopping $167 after the record company takes their cut an independent artist with no record company gets $0.03 per play. so if they have the same success they earn $30,000 and if they wanted to make the same money they would only have to be 0.6% as successful. http://torrentfreak.com/spotify-isnt...ls-are-091123/ __________________ “When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak Last edited by gideongallery; 11-23-2009 at 06:28 PM..