Marcus Aurelius

So i'm, promoting their PPS program and I get a sale deducted from me.

Is this normal now that PPS sponsors char back sales on you? WTF?

fris

if its chargeback they take the money back, not sure if thats the problem

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GTS Mark

Happened to me on another affiliate program last week as well (not ama kings though).

NetHorse

Started happening to me too....It's only fair I suppose.

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Marcus Aurelius

how is this fair?

this isn't RevShare

nation-x

What if it was fraud or a chargeback? Why should a sponsor pay for an invalid sale? PPS = Pay Per Sale... if it was charged back or is fraud... it's not a sale.

BlackCrayon

its not fair at all. that is the whole poiint of PPS. You don't get the recurring so the sponsor get the pros and cons of it. Chargebacks should only hit the affiliate through revshare..

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BlackCrayon

If it was fraud the sale wouldn't of been credited in the first place. Chargebacks are not the issue of an affiliate pushing PPS.

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DVTimes

i do not see why its not fair.

otherwise you would have somone promote the site using stolen credit cards.

plus if its charged back then for the website that means 0 sole. so you have got paid for that - 0.

why is that not fair?

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BlackCrayon

Uh, well sure they make nothing if its charged back but what about all of the rebills they get from other sales sent? its a trade off. i have never been deducted a sale from the programs I promote and if i did, i would stop promoting them. fraud is a totally different thing.

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Barefootsies

Exactamundo.

When a customer charges back or claims fraud they take money from the site/program owner. It's only fair to 'pass the buck' to the affiliate who referred the sale.

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TheDoc

Programs that have been around a number of years and have always played the PPS game, pay on all signups! PPS means you're paid on every sale, period!

The programs in the last 5 years or so that started getting into the game, started to change the rules. They don't really understand how to make money, so they steal from affiliates.

Anyone that thinks PPS shouldn't pay on cb/refunds, hasn't been doing this very long.

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TheDoc

All PPS programs have a payout delay to combat fraud. If an affiliate is using stolen cards the account is fraud and the program won't pay either way or shouldn't have.

It's not fair to the affiliate, because the deal says you're paid for every sale/signup you produce, when that isn't the case.

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beta-tester

chargeback man... it happened to me with them couple of times.. nothing to stress so much about.

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Marcus Aurelius

Well, what the fuck?

I'm an affiliate, i just drive traffic to their site. It's their job to sell the surfer.

If they hype it up on the tour and offer jack shit in the members area, how is it my problem?

RevShare = you share rebills and charge backs and other associated fees.

PPS = you get flat rate for sales, no rebills and no deductions.

paymeback

Yes it takes money away from the site/program owner but thats the price of running a business, write it off as a loss just like any debt.

The 'buck' should stop as soon as the surfer leaves the affiliates site

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Konda

They have always deducted chargebacked sales, and so do many other programs.

Keep in mind that programs have to pay the bank at least a $25 fee for each chargeback, so if they would payout the $30, they would loose $55 on that sale.

Marcus Aurelius

Then they should get their shit together and try not get chargebacks. Or dump PSS and offer RevShare only.

I'm promoting dozens of PPS programs and it's the first time i see this kind of shit pulled on me.

nolongerexists

you in biz since 2003? wtf?

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TeenCat

times are changing ... i remember when on gfy was contests for cars, iphones, ipods, thousands of dollars ... all of that is now only thing of the past ... and i also remember when pps was without chargebacks ...

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Cradle

what he said

Wizzo

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Konda

Then send your traffic to another program. No one forces you to send to them.
From my experience though even with chargeback deductions Amakings makes me more money than any other GF program.

LoveSandra

bump 4 ama

signupdamnit

I would consider it fair to take back for refunds or double charges if it's within something like three days and it is disclosed in their terms. But a chargeback deduction say a month later after the surfer joined would not be something I would like seeing from a PPS sponsor. I appreciate the fraud issue, but I think there are other ways to handle this.

JA$ON

used to be that only the HIGH pps payout companies did it ($50+) the $30-35 payouts used to just absorb them into the cost, f0r the most part anyway.

Oh well

Barefootsies

That's not how it works in the real world commissioned sales. Online should be no different.

This is a business.

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Barefootsies

I do agree with you that their T.O.S. should cover the CB policy (whatever that may be... all CB/fraud/number of days/etc.) so an affiliate can make an educated decision on whether to promote that program or not.

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Phoenix

the sites look good....send more sales...losing 1 sale now and then shouldnt bother anyone...i get you on the pps though

if they are converting, just have to put the head down and send more sales

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fuzebox

I'm pretty used to it, and I think it's totally fair. CB = no sale as far as I'm concerned.

LOL I wish that were the case

NaughtyRob

Wrong... so if a bad affiliate is sending fraud sales somehow and the site gets chargebacks he should still pay that bad affiliate? nope.
Not saying in this case that is what is happening but just saying, why should the site owner get fucked 2 ways.

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andrej_NDC

Its not chargebacks, but mainly refunds! Chargebacks need way more time to happen!

Barefootsies

A Refund is $29.95 (or whatever the monthly membership fee is)

A Charge Back is $29.95 + $25/35 bank fee. Plus it counts against their processor/mechant account's 1 or 2% charge back ratio or average.

Giving a refund is a better business decision.

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kristin

This is the second or third thread I've seen about this lately and I'm surprised people are just noticing.

Many of the programs that have this feature use NATS because when setting up programs in NATS they have this available.

Many older programs with custom backends do not do this. In my opinion if Credits/CBs are taken away, that's not a true PPS program.

Many programs that I have seen do this were revshare programs that eventually went PPS.

CBs I can understand a bit more, but credits ... come on. If any program does this, I would strongly suggest looking at their signup process and their members area.

If the program you send to has a shitty members area or does anything shady, you could find yourself losing a lot of PPS money.

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kristin

If you have 10 credits on a deal, you can assume that five will charge back, or 50%. So in total 15 credits/cbs. It's sad that some if not all five people never tried to even get a refund.

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kristin

Sure, they may convert but what about after that? I've been in many members areas that upsell you on anything you click. That goes beyond conversions.

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DirtyDanza

wow... in my 10 years in this biz I have heard some stupid things ...

but this may top the list...

if you send me a sale that charges back I will then deduct that from your sales ...

like someone said here .... if you send me 10 sales that are fraud "which happends all the time" and all 10 charge back why should I pay you? id be better off buying traffic than affiliate at that point right?

so your surfer refunds or what not and you still want the sale? thats fucking crazy...

why not call my buddy bob to go join all my trials I I promote on pps and then tell him to charge em back a week later... so he spent 20 bucks on 4 trials to make 100 bucks 25pps...

I mean just think of it like that and it will make sense to you....

shit if thats the case ill just go join and charge back all the sites I can find that pay pps...

see what I mean...

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kristin

Fraud is different and I don't think any disputes not paying a WM who frauds a program.

We run our fraud scan every payout and of course the processor can shut down a WM. If we find that a WM is doing something against our TOS, we will not pay them. The key is Against TOS - which if a program doesn't have that they deduct for credits and cb's in their TOS, then they should pay on all sales.

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TheDoc

PPS rules have always been, pay on all signups, even if the person refunds or charges back - excluding a fraud account, and excluding it being in the terms. It has been this way long before your program was around.

Most real world sales call it "commissions" not Pay Per Signup... commissions almost always include a salary, which includes lots of rules.

PPS means exactly what it says - paid on every signup. What happens after the signup, is not the affiliates issue.



When I see programs deduct on PPS, I see amateurs running a business structure they don't fully understand.

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fris

if you are a salesman and get a comission on a 10,000$ product, and they return it, do you get to keep your comission?

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Barefootsies

Semantics.

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Barefootsies

Nope.

Typically if they cancel/return/chargeback/fall through 30-90 days after the sale then your commission is deducted the following month. You are paid, and rewarded, for quality sales.
Not just any sale.

This is done to reinforce and promote a solid business practice. If you are doing scams, high pressure sales, or anything shady. You will get hammered on the returns, regardless of what they are. Hence, negative reinforcement on your sales practice and a built in system to reward those who do quality sales versus the scammers/card bangers/fraud/etc..

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andrej_NDC

I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, don't send traffic, its not like you are forced to do so. Send to others or make or own site instead of complaining.

Tanker

This is how I have known PPS to exist since it started in the adult industry sounds like these guys are calling thier program PPS when it should be a Pay Per Active

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BFT3K

I only offer rev-share, but if I were offering PPS and a sale was charged back, there is no doubt that the person who sent the sale to begin with, would be charged back as well.

Some people are too funny!

Barefootsies

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BFT3K

Of course not. That would be absurd!

18teens

That's happened to me a few times with other programs. I guess it's only fair.

kristin

The big deal is that PPS was never done this way in the past and many programs don't have it in their TOS. On top of it, the programs I know that do this you have to go several steps into stats to even see the credits/cbs.

So it's not until after you have lost money do you find out.

If a program wants to put it in their TOS, fine by me, fair game. But 99.9% don't have it in there.

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