AMAKings, WTF? - GoFuckYourself.com

Marcus Aurelius · 05-17-2010, 04:44 AM

So i'm, promoting their PPS program and I get a sale deducted from me.

Is this normal now that PPS sponsors char back sales on you? WTF?

fris · 05-17-2010, 05:01 AM

if its chargeback they take the money back, not sure if thats the problem

GTS Mark · 05-17-2010, 05:01 AM

Happened to me on another affiliate program last week as well (not ama kings though).

NetHorse · 05-17-2010, 05:04 AM

Started happening to me too....It's only fair I suppose.

Marcus Aurelius · 05-17-2010, 05:05 AM

how is this fair?

this isn't RevShare

nation-x · 05-17-2010, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDCQ

how is this fair?

this isn't RevShare

What if it was fraud or a chargeback? Why should a sponsor pay for an invalid sale? PPS = Pay Per Sale... if it was charged back or is fraud... it's not a sale.

BlackCrayon · 05-17-2010, 05:12 AM

its not fair at all. that is the whole poiint of PPS. You don't get the recurring so the sponsor get the pros and cons of it. Chargebacks should only hit the affiliate through revshare..

BlackCrayon · 05-17-2010, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

What if it was fraud or a chargeback? Why should a sponsor pay for an invalid sale? PPS = Pay Per Sale... if it was charged back or is fraud... it's not a sale.

If it was fraud the sale wouldn't of been credited in the first place. Chargebacks are not the issue of an affiliate pushing PPS.

DVTimes · 05-17-2010, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

its not fair at all. that is the whole poiint of PPS. You don't get the recurring so the sponsor get the pros and cons of it. Chargebacks should only hit the affiliate through revshare..

i do not see why its not fair.

otherwise you would have somone promote the site using stolen credit cards.

plus if its charged back then for the website that means 0 sole. so you have got paid for that - 0.

why is that not fair?

BlackCrayon · 05-17-2010, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

i do not see why its not fair.

otherwise you would have somone promote the site using stolen credit cards.

plus if its charged back then for the website that means 0 sole. so you have got paid for that - 0.

why is that not fair?

Uh, well sure they make nothing if its charged back but what about all of the rebills they get from other sales sent? its a trade off. i have never been deducted a sale from the programs I promote and if i did, i would stop promoting them. fraud is a totally different thing.

Barefootsies · 05-17-2010, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

What if it was fraud or a chargeback? Why should a sponsor pay for an invalid sale? PPS = Pay Per Sale... if it was charged back or is fraud... it's not a sale.

Exactamundo.

When a customer charges back or claims fraud they take money from the site/program owner. It's only fair to 'pass the buck' to the affiliate who referred the sale.

TheDoc · 05-17-2010, 05:58 AM

Programs that have been around a number of years and have always played the PPS game, pay on all signups! PPS means you're paid on every sale, period!

The programs in the last 5 years or so that started getting into the game, started to change the rules. They don't really understand how to make money, so they steal from affiliates.

Anyone that thinks PPS shouldn't pay on cb/refunds, hasn't been doing this very long.

TheDoc · 05-17-2010, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVTimes

i do not see why its not fair.

otherwise you would have somone promote the site using stolen credit cards.

plus if its charged back then for the website that means 0 sole. so you have got paid for that - 0.

why is that not fair?

All PPS programs have a payout delay to combat fraud. If an affiliate is using stolen cards the account is fraud and the program won't pay either way or shouldn't have.

It's not fair to the affiliate, because the deal says you're paid for every sale/signup you produce, when that isn't the case.

beta-tester · 05-17-2010, 06:10 AM

chargeback man... it happened to me with them couple of times.. nothing to stress so much about.

Marcus Aurelius · 05-17-2010, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta-tester

chargeback man... it happened to me with them couple of times.. nothing to stress so much about.

Well, what the fuck?

I'm an affiliate, i just drive traffic to their site. It's their job to sell the surfer.

If they hype it up on the tour and offer jack shit in the members area, how is it my problem?

RevShare = you share rebills and charge backs and other associated fees.

PPS = you get flat rate for sales, no rebills and no deductions.

paymeback · 05-17-2010, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Exactamundo.

When a customer charges back or claims fraud they take money from the site/program owner. It's only fair to 'pass the buck' to the affiliate who referred the sale.

Yes it takes money away from the site/program owner but thats the price of running a business, write it off as a loss just like any debt.

The 'buck' should stop as soon as the surfer leaves the affiliates site

Konda · 05-17-2010, 06:34 AM

They have always deducted chargebacked sales, and so do many other programs.

Keep in mind that programs have to pay the bank at least a $25 fee for each chargeback, so if they would payout the $30, they would loose $55 on that sale.

Marcus Aurelius · 05-17-2010, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konda

They have always deducted chargebacked sales, and so do many other programs.

Keep in mind that programs have to pay the bank at least a $25 fee for each chargeback, so if they would payout the $30, they would loose $55 on that sale.

Then they should get their shit together and try not get chargebacks. Or dump PSS and offer RevShare only.

I'm promoting dozens of PPS programs and it's the first time i see this kind of shit pulled on me.

nolongerexists · 05-17-2010, 06:40 AM

you in biz since 2003? wtf?

TeenCat · 05-17-2010, 06:42 AM

times are changing ... i remember when on gfy was contests for cars, iphones, ipods, thousands of dollars ... all of that is now only thing of the past ... and i also remember when pps was without chargebacks ...

Cradle · 05-17-2010, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

What if it was fraud or a chargeback? Why should a sponsor pay for an invalid sale? PPS = Pay Per Sale... if it was charged back or is fraud... it's not a sale.

what he said

Wizzo · 05-17-2010, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Programs that have been around a number of years and have always played the PPS game, pay on all signups! PPS means you're paid on every sale, period!

The programs in the last 5 years or so that started getting into the game, started to change the rules. They don't really understand how to make money, so they steal from affiliates.

Anyone that thinks PPS shouldn't pay on cb/refunds, hasn't been doing this very long.

Konda · 05-17-2010, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDCQ

Then they should get their shit together and try not get chargebacks. Or dump PSS and offer RevShare only.

I'm promoting dozens of PPS programs and it's the first time i see this kind of shit pulled on me.

Then send your traffic to another program. No one forces you to send to them.
From my experience though even with chargeback deductions Amakings makes me more money than any other GF program.

LoveSandra · 05-17-2010, 07:01 AM

bump 4 ama

signupdamnit · 05-17-2010, 07:06 AM

I would consider it fair to take back for refunds or double charges if it's within something like three days and it is disclosed in their terms. But a chargeback deduction say a month later after the surfer joined would not be something I would like seeing from a PPS sponsor. I appreciate the fraud issue, but I think there are other ways to handle this.

JA$ON · 05-17-2010, 07:19 AM

used to be that only the HIGH pps payout companies did it ($50+) the $30-35 payouts used to just absorb them into the cost, f0r the most part anyway.

Oh well

Barefootsies · 05-17-2010, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Programs that have been around a number of years and have always played the PPS game, pay on all signups! PPS means you're paid on every sale, period!

The programs in the last 5 years or so that started getting into the game, started to change the rules. They don't really understand how to make money, so they steal from affiliates.

Anyone that thinks PPS shouldn't pay on cb/refunds, hasn't been doing this very long.

That's not how it works in the real world commissioned sales. Online should be no different.

This is a business.

Barefootsies · 05-17-2010, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

I would consider it fair to take back for refunds or double charges if it's within something like three days and it is disclosed in their terms. But a chargeback deduction say a month later after the surfer joined would not be something I would like seeing from a PPS sponsor. I appreciate the fraud issue, but I think there are other ways to handle this.

I do agree with you that their T.O.S. should cover the CB policy (whatever that may be... all CB/fraud/number of days/etc.) so an affiliate can make an educated decision on whether to promote that program or not.

Phoenix · 05-17-2010, 07:44 AM

the sites look good....send more sales...losing 1 sale now and then shouldnt bother anyone...i get you on the pps though

if they are converting, just have to put the head down and send more sales

fuzebox · 05-17-2010, 08:53 AM

I'm pretty used to it, and I think it's totally fair. CB = no sale as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

If it was fraud the sale wouldn't of been credited in the first place.

LOL I wish that were the case

NaughtyRob · 05-17-2010, 10:36 AM

Wrong... so if a bad affiliate is sending fraud sales somehow and the site gets chargebacks he should still pay that bad affiliate? nope.
Not saying in this case that is what is happening but just saying, why should the site owner get fucked 2 ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

its not fair at all. that is the whole poiint of PPS. You don't get the recurring so the sponsor get the pros and cons of it. Chargebacks should only hit the affiliate through revshare..

andrej_NDC · 05-17-2010, 10:37 AM

Its not chargebacks, but mainly refunds! Chargebacks need way more time to happen!

Barefootsies · 05-17-2010, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Its not chargebacks, but mainly refunds! Chargebacks need way more time to happen!

A Refund is $29.95 (or whatever the monthly membership fee is)

A Charge Back is $29.95 + $25/35 bank fee. Plus it counts against their processor/mechant account's 1 or 2% charge back ratio or average.

Giving a refund is a better business decision.

kristin · 05-17-2010, 10:54 AM

This is the second or third thread I've seen about this lately and I'm surprised people are just noticing.

Many of the programs that have this feature use NATS because when setting up programs in NATS they have this available.

Many older programs with custom backends do not do this. In my opinion if Credits/CBs are taken away, that's not a true PPS program.

Many programs that I have seen do this were revshare programs that eventually went PPS.

CBs I can understand a bit more, but credits ... come on. If any program does this, I would strongly suggest looking at their signup process and their members area.

If the program you send to has a shitty members area or does anything shady, you could find yourself losing a lot of PPS money.

kristin · 05-17-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

A Refund is $29.95 (or whatever the monthly membership fee is)

A Charge Back is $29.95 + $25/35 bank fee. Plus it counts against their processor/mechant account's 1 or 2% charge back ratio or average.

Giving a refund is a better business decision.

If you have 10 credits on a deal, you can assume that five will charge back, or 50%. So in total 15 credits/cbs. It's sad that some if not all five people never tried to even get a refund.

kristin · 05-17-2010, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

the sites look good....send more sales...losing 1 sale now and then shouldnt bother anyone...i get you on the pps though

if they are converting, just have to put the head down and send more sales

Sure, they may convert but what about after that? I've been in many members areas that upsell you on anything you click. That goes beyond conversions.

DirtyDanza · 05-17-2010, 11:20 AM

wow... in my 10 years in this biz I have heard some stupid things ...

but this may top the list...

if you send me a sale that charges back I will then deduct that from your sales ...

like someone said here .... if you send me 10 sales that are fraud "which happends all the time" and all 10 charge back why should I pay you? id be better off buying traffic than affiliate at that point right?

so your surfer refunds or what not and you still want the sale? thats fucking crazy...

why not call my buddy bob to go join all my trials I I promote on pps and then tell him to charge em back a week later... so he spent 20 bucks on 4 trials to make 100 bucks 25pps...

I mean just think of it like that and it will make sense to you....

shit if thats the case ill just go join and charge back all the sites I can find that pay pps...

see what I mean...

kristin · 05-17-2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDanza

wow... in my 10 years in this biz I have heard some stupid things ...

but this may top the list...

if you send me a sale that charges back I will then deduct that from your sales ...

like someone said here .... if you send me 10 sales that are fraud "which happends all the time" and all 10 charge back why should I pay you? id be better off buying traffic than affiliate at that point right?

so your surfer refunds or what not and you still want the sale? thats fucking crazy...

why not call my buddy bob to go join all my trials I I promote on pps and then tell him to charge em back a week later... so he spent 20 bucks on 4 trials to make 100 bucks 25pps...

I mean just think of it like that and it will make sense to you....

shit if thats the case ill just go join and charge back all the sites I can find that pay pps...

see what I mean...

Fraud is different and I don't think any disputes not paying a WM who frauds a program.

We run our fraud scan every payout and of course the processor can shut down a WM. If we find that a WM is doing something against our TOS, we will not pay them. The key is Against TOS - which if a program doesn't have that they deduct for credits and cb's in their TOS, then they should pay on all sales.

TheDoc · 05-17-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

That's not how it works in the real world commissioned sales. Online should be no different.

This is a business.

PPS rules have always been, pay on all signups, even if the person refunds or charges back - excluding a fraud account, and excluding it being in the terms. It has been this way long before your program was around.

Most real world sales call it "commissions" not Pay Per Signup... commissions almost always include a salary, which includes lots of rules.

PPS means exactly what it says - paid on every signup. What happens after the signup, is not the affiliates issue.

When I see programs deduct on PPS, I see amateurs running a business structure they don't fully understand.

fris · 05-17-2010, 12:25 PM

if you are a salesman and get a comission on a 10,000$ product, and they return it, do you get to keep your comission?

Barefootsies · 05-17-2010, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Most real world sales call it "commissions" not Pay Per Signup... commissions almost always include a salary, which includes lots of rules.

Semantics.

ASW · 05-17-2010, 12:32 PM

hows everybody doin today hope all is well hit me up on ICQ#628-127-038

Barefootsies · 05-17-2010, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fris

if you are a salesman and get a comission on a 10,000$ product, and they return it, do you get to keep your comission?

Nope.

Typically if they cancel/return/chargeback/fall through 30-90 days after the sale then your commission is deducted the following month. You are paid, and rewarded, for quality sales.
Not just any sale.

This is done to reinforce and promote a solid business practice. If you are doing scams, high pressure sales, or anything shady. You will get hammered on the returns, regardless of what they are. Hence, negative reinforcement on your sales practice and a built in system to reward those who do quality sales versus the scammers/card bangers/fraud/etc..

andrej_NDC · 05-17-2010, 12:35 PM

I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, don't send traffic, its not like you are forced to do so. Send to others or make or own site instead of complaining.

Tanker · 05-17-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

PPS rules have always been, pay on all signups, even if the person refunds or charges back - excluding a fraud account, and excluding it being in the terms. It has been this way long before your program was around.

Most real world sales call it "commissions" not Pay Per Signup... commissions almost always include a salary, which includes lots of rules.

PPS means exactly what it says - paid on every signup. What happens after the signup, is not the affiliates issue.

When I see programs deduct on PPS, I see amateurs running a business structure they don't fully understand.

This is how I have known PPS to exist since it started in the adult industry sounds like these guys are calling thier program PPS when it should be a Pay Per Active

BFT3K · 05-17-2010, 12:37 PM

I only offer rev-share, but if I were offering PPS and a sale was charged back, there is no doubt that the person who sent the sale to begin with, would be charged back as well.

Some people are too funny!

Barefootsies · 05-17-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, don't send traffic, its not like you are forced to do so. Send to others or make or own site instead of complaining.

BFT3K · 05-17-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fris

if you are a salesman and get a comission on a 10,000$ product, and they return it, do you get to keep your comission?

Of course not. That would be absurd!

18teens · 05-17-2010, 12:50 PM

That's happened to me a few times with other programs. I guess it's only fair.

kristin · 05-17-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, don't send traffic, its not like you are forced to do so. Send to others or make or own site instead of complaining.

The big deal is that PPS was never done this way in the past and many programs don't have it in their TOS. On top of it, the programs I know that do this you have to go several steps into stats to even see the credits/cbs.

So it's not until after you have lost money do you find out.

If a program wants to put it in their TOS, fine by me, fair game. But 99.9% don't have it in there.

05-17-2010, 04:44 AM	#1
Marcus Aurelius No Refunds Issued. Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 14,809	AMAKings, WTF? So i'm, promoting their PPS program and I get a sale deducted from me. Is this normal now that PPS sponsors char back sales on you? WTF?

05-17-2010, 05:01 AM	#2
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 55,359	if its chargeback they take the money back, not sure if thats the problem __________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

05-17-2010, 05:04 AM	#4
NetHorse Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,526	Started happening to me too....It's only fair I suppose. __________________ ┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐ ICQ # 427013273

05-17-2010, 05:12 AM	#7
BlackCrayon Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ottawa Posts: 19,631	its not fair at all. that is the whole poiint of PPS. You don't get the recurring so the sponsor get the pros and cons of it. Chargebacks should only hit the affiliate through revshare.. __________________ you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

05-17-2010, 05:58 AM	#12
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	Programs that have been around a number of years and have always played the PPS game, pay on all signups! PPS means you're paid on every sale, period! The programs in the last 5 years or so that started getting into the game, started to change the rules. They don't really understand how to make money, so they steal from affiliates. Anyone that thinks PPS shouldn't pay on cb/refunds, hasn't been doing this very long. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

05-17-2010, 05:01 AM	#3
GTS Mark Vrume Mark Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 20,912	Happened to me on another affiliate program last week as well (not ama kings though).

05-17-2010, 05:05 AM	#5
Marcus Aurelius No Refunds Issued. Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 14,809	how is this fair? this isn't RevShare

05-17-2010, 06:10 AM	#14
beta-tester Rock 'n Roll Baby! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA, temporarly Posts: 22,562	chargeback man... it happened to me with them couple of times.. nothing to stress so much about. __________________ Sig for sale. Affordable prices. Contact me and get a great deal ;) My contact: ICQ: 944-320-46 e-mail: manca {AT} HotFreeSex4All.com

05-17-2010, 06:34 AM	#17
Konda ... Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,280	They have always deducted chargebacked sales, and so do many other programs. Keep in mind that programs have to pay the bank at least a $25 fee for each chargeback, so if they would payout the $30, they would loose $55 on that sale.

05-17-2010, 06:40 AM	#19
nolongerexists Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,096	you in biz since 2003? wtf? __________________ work smart not hard ;)

05-17-2010, 06:42 AM	#20
TeenCat Too lazy to set a koala Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CZ/EU forever! Posts: 16,139	times are changing ... i remember when on gfy was contests for cars, iphones, ipods, thousands of dollars ... all of that is now only thing of the past ... and i also remember when pps was without chargebacks ... __________________ 6bot / Coming again very soon! Svit Zlin Radio 24/7!

05-17-2010, 07:01 AM	#24
LoveSandra So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Just Blow Me Posts: 10,551	bump 4 ama

05-17-2010, 07:06 AM	#25
signupdamnit Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,697	I would consider it fair to take back for refunds or double charges if it's within something like three days and it is disclosed in their terms. But a chargeback deduction say a month later after the surfer joined would not be something I would like seeing from a PPS sponsor. I appreciate the fraud issue, but I think there are other ways to handle this.

05-17-2010, 07:19 AM	#26
JA$ON Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: I'm from Downtown....Im from Mitch & Murry Posts: 1,329	used to be that only the HIGH pps payout companies did it ($50+) the $30-35 payouts used to just absorb them into the cost, f0r the most part anyway. Oh well

05-17-2010, 07:44 AM	#29
Phoenix BACON BACON BACON Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poems everybody, the laddie fancies himself a poet Posts: 35,457	the sites look good....send more sales...losing 1 sale now and then shouldnt bother anyone...i get you on the pps though if they are converting, just have to put the head down and send more sales __________________ Skype Phoenixskype1 Telegram PhoenixBrad https://quantads.io

05-17-2010, 10:37 AM	#32
andrej_NDC Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 7,760	Its not chargebacks, but mainly refunds! Chargebacks need way more time to happen!

05-17-2010, 10:54 AM	#34
kristin GOO! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Back Home : ) Posts: 9,768	This is the second or third thread I've seen about this lately and I'm surprised people are just noticing. Many of the programs that have this feature use NATS because when setting up programs in NATS they have this available. Many older programs with custom backends do not do this. In my opinion if Credits/CBs are taken away, that's not a true PPS program. Many programs that I have seen do this were revshare programs that eventually went PPS. CBs I can understand a bit more, but credits ... come on. If any program does this, I would strongly suggest looking at their signup process and their members area. If the program you send to has a shitty members area or does anything shady, you could find yourself losing a lot of PPS money. __________________ Vacares rules. "Usually only fat guys have the kind of knowledge and ability that Kristin has."

05-17-2010, 11:20 AM	#37
DirtyDanza Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: BP4L.... Las Vegas, Posts: 8,369	wow... in my 10 years in this biz I have heard some stupid things ... but this may top the list... if you send me a sale that charges back I will then deduct that from your sales ... like someone said here .... if you send me 10 sales that are fraud "which happends all the time" and all 10 charge back why should I pay you? id be better off buying traffic than affiliate at that point right? so your surfer refunds or what not and you still want the sale? thats fucking crazy... why not call my buddy bob to go join all my trials I I promote on pps and then tell him to charge em back a week later... so he spent 20 bucks on 4 trials to make 100 bucks 25pps... I mean just think of it like that and it will make sense to you.... shit if thats the case ill just go join and charge back all the sites I can find that pay pps... see what I mean... __________________ AVN Nominated Camming Couple

05-17-2010, 12:25 PM	#40
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 55,359	if you are a salesman and get a comission on a 10,000$ product, and they return it, do you get to keep your comission? __________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

05-17-2010, 12:32 PM	#42
ASW Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 259	hows everybody doin today hope all is well hit me up on ICQ#628-127-038

05-17-2010, 12:35 PM	#44
andrej_NDC Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 7,760	I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't like it, don't send traffic, its not like you are forced to do so. Send to others or make or own site instead of complaining.

05-17-2010, 12:37 PM	#46
BFT3K Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Narnia Posts: 10,764	I only offer rev-share, but if I were offering PPS and a sale was charged back, there is no doubt that the person who sent the sale to begin with, would be charged back as well. Some people are too funny!

05-17-2010, 12:50 PM	#49
18teens Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,605	That's happened to me a few times with other programs. I guess it's only fair.