Slutboat

We turned the most secular country in the middle east into a theocracy.

And since when have we in the states ever been anti-dictator? We have always supported and propped up, even installed, many dictators around the world and we continue to do so.

Under Saddam:
Women and girls to school and went everywhere with their heads uncovered - now they would likely be murdered for trying a stunt like that in most parts of Iraq. Is this what we in the US consider progress?

now....there is NO GOVERNMENT, just a chaotic patchwork of various religious factions parcelling out the country. The security apparatus is a wholly separate entity from the government - and the Shi'a are in control now - for those of you that don't know, Iran happens to also have a Shi'a theocracy. So basically we took out the one force holding back Iran, Saddam Hussein, and we handed it over to the Shi'a crazys.

Iraq is now a theocrazy.

Thanks Bush you semi-retarded war criminal. Thanks for a great 8 years.


Here are some little tidbits from Wiki:
To the consternation of Islamic conservatives, Saddam's government gave women added freedoms and offered them high-level government and industry jobs. Saddam also created a Western-style legal system, making Iraq the only country in the Persian Gulf region not ruled according to traditional Islamic law (Sharia). Saddam abolished the Sharia courts, except for personal injury claims.

Within just a few years, Iraq was providing social services that were unprecedented among Middle Eastern countries. Saddam established and controlled the "National Campaign for the Eradication of Illiteracy" and the campaign for "Compulsory Free Education in Iraq," and largely under his auspices, the government established universal free schooling up to the highest education levels; hundreds of thousands learned to read in the years following the initiation of the program. The government also supported families of soldiers, granted free hospitalization to everyone, and gave subsidies to farmers. Iraq created one of the most modernized public-health systems in the Middle East, earning Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO).[27][28]
To diversify the largely oil-based Iraqi economy, Saddam implemented a national infrastructure campaign that made great progress in building roads, promoting mining, and developing other industries. The campaign revolutionized Iraq's energy industries. Electricity was brought to nearly every city in Iraq, and many outlying areas.

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Slutboat

Iraq under Saddam Hussein was very secular and, as a consequence, there was far more freedom for women and non-Muslims than in most other Arab Muslim nations. In contrast to the religiously authoritarian direction which Iraq has taken under the American occupation, though, such secularism is a difficult target for criticism for religious conservatives who otherwise treat secular governments as inspired by the Antichrist. Indeed, it's not unusual to see religious conservatives complaining about events in Iraqi politics that they might otherwise praise in American politics.

On the other hand, Saddam Hussein only turned to religion near the end of his reign when he desperately needed anything that would bolster support. Conservative critics in the West have tended to focus on this, ignoring the fact that he was only using religion for political purposes - something we see in the West as well. Lumping Saddam Hussein with other Islamist leaders and movements is also likely to be inaccurate because Hussein himself was a frequent target of Islamist criticism for being too secular and not enforcing Islamic religious laws.




http://atheism.about.com/library/glo...sseinsadam.htm

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Barefootsies

The rich got richer.

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Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

the indigo

The zombies (the people) don't care. Irak is the perfect example of invading a country by force, when it does not work by the other 'softer' ways such as economically. (Argentina, Panama, African countries, etc.)

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Slutboat

I think you are wrong about people not caring. When it comes to Iraq I think people just don't KNOW.

How many of you realize the reality of what Iraq was before, and after Saddam?

The totality of the blunder that was the bombing and occupation of Iraq has not sunken in yet in the minds of the vast majority of Americans. Fox News is reporting the Iraq war as a great success, and the real news channels haven't done a much better job of reporting the reality either.

If more people understood what a disaster it is...that we turned the ONLY secular government in the Middle East into a full blown Shi'a theocracy, and are basically now handing the whole country over to Iran, more people would be upset and holding our government accountable.

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glamourmodels

you are assuming Bush gives a shit... he doesn't-

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theking

Iraq is not under theocratic rule.

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The Demon

Shhh.. I rather enjoy Slutboat making himself look stupid by continuously calling Iraq a theocracy.

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papill0n

watch out man you got 'the demon' and 'theking' to deal with

2 serious forces in rational thinking

The Demon

A moron such as yourself wouldn't understand rational thinking if it came up to you and asked for sex.

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Rangermoore

You are just showing your stupidity... Have you been there? You have NO IDEA what you are saying...

Women do walk around with their heads uncovered today....
Girls do go to school....
No they are not killed for doing these things...
There are even prostitutes in Iraq....
Iraq is not a theocracy...

And yes your a moron....

Slutboat

Have you been there in the last couple years? Are you or were you in the service as your Ranger name implies? If so then I thank you for your service to this Nation.

I myself have not been to Iraq but I have travelled to the Middle East on three occasions. I have heard first hand many things that aren't well reported or not reported at all. I keep myself very well informed on the situation by a wide variety of sources, I immerse myself in as much information as I can...you see I knew a dude killed in Iraq and ever since he died I have followed the situation very carefully. And I'm not at all happy with what I am seeing is the results of him and all the others that have given the ultimate sacrifice for our country. It's easy to call people names in a pubic forum but you failed to point out anything that actually contradicts anything I said.

I mentioned that women can get murdered for not following Sharia Law in many parts of Iraq. Although I'm sure its a little more liberal in Bagdad. Do you have any facts to dispute this claim? Only in Bagdad do women go without their heads covered and VERY few (if any). But Iraq is a large country. Have you personally seen women going around with their heads uncovered outside of Bagdad? If so then please enlighten us. Interesting that even the western female Journalists there ALWAYS have their heads covered on newscasts. This was absolutely not the case under Saddam, sorry but to me thats a HUGE step backward.

There are few schools and entire school system is in shambles, and very few girls go to school at all, and mainly only in Bagdad. This will change for the worse VERY fast now that we are pulling out. You think there will be many girls in Iraq schools in 5 years from now? I doubt it. Saddam had one of the most stable schools systems in the middle east for both boys and girls and was highly praised for it. Now its a disaster.

There has always been and always will be plenty of prostitutes in theocratic nations. I have been to a city in the Middle East where I stayed at luxury hotel that had an entire wing expressly for keeping prostitutes.

But the question is whether or not Iraq is now, a theocracy? From Wiki:

The federal government of Iraq is defined under the current Constitution as an Islamic, democratic, federal parliamentary republic

did you notice the first word - Islamic... yes you are correct that means a theocracy.

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali al-Husayni al-Sistani is the leader of Iraq, not the government. And when the people had the chance to vote, they voted by an overwhelming majority to put the current Shia controlled government in place.
Question: Do you really think that this government would do anything without the blessing of al-Sistani? I think not. So explain to me how this is not one and the same with a theocracy.


This man is the most powerful man in Iraq, there is not even a close second, does anyone to care to dispute this:



"the country's most powerful man is not even an Iraqi, but an Iranian. He came to Najaf, Shiite Islam's holiest city, more than 50 years ago as a disciple of the then Grand Ayatollah Abul Qasim al-Khoei. Until last August, Sistani never left, nor did he give up his Iranian citizenship. "




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Sistani

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By Rod Nordland and Babak Dehghanpisheh
Newsweek

-
Feb. 14 issue ? It's interesting that most published accounts describe Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani as a tall, slender man, towering over his aides and visitors. Actually he's on the short side, about 5 feet 8, but the error is understandable. The housebound cleric has hardly set foot out of his tiny abode in the slums of Najaf in six years. He never gives speeches, never even presides at Friday prayers at the golden-domed Imam Ali shrine, the holiest place in Shiite Islam, only a few hundred feet from his home. But he does receive visitors, hundreds a day, normally, always seated on a thin cushion on the floor of his barrani, or receiving room, wearing a gray robe that is often threadbare, and a large black turban. He won't be photographed (the few grainy images of him were taken without official permission), and he never gives interviews. He is the very picture of an ascetic Islamic prelate, a picture that would not have looked much different if it had been painted five centuries ago. His visitors invariably leave impressed, often describing the encounter in mystic terms; small wonder they remember him as tall.
This is the image that Sistani has carefully crafted over the years, but there's another side to it. He may live humbly and poor, but he also presides over a multimillion-dollar network of charities and religious foundations from Pakistan to England. He may not get out very much, but he has a highly developed network of representatives in every Shia neighborhood in Iraq. One of his sons-in-law runs an Internet company with 66 employees in the Iranian city of Qom, and Sistani's own office is one of the best-wired in Iraq. The interim government installed a T-1 connection to the Internet, so his representatives can stay in touch by e-mail. When he has new visitors, his staff Googles them and prints out a briefing paper. When folks in Baghdad, 90 miles north, need to call his office, they dial a local number that patches through. And he may refuse to have his photo taken, but he doesn't object to his followers' plastering the few available grainy shots on campaign posters and mosques around the country.
All that makes sense. Al-Sayid Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani is now indisputably the most powerful man in Iraq. The elections he demanded, on the terms he insisted upon, were an unexpected success; the party he crafted, and then blessed, has won a landslide victory. The United Iraqi Alliance, better known as the Shia List, racked up more than 65 percent of the votes counted as of last weekend. That's at least enough to choose the leaders of the new government, and when final results come in, it may come close to the two-thirds margin necessary to dictate the terms of Iraq's new constitution. "Ayatollah Sistani is very elated," says Mowaffak al-Rubaie, a member of the United Iraqi Alliance and national-security adviser to the interim government, who spoke to him by phone as results came in last week.
But it raises the question: who is Ali Sistani, really? Is he the ayatollah with a 20-page bibliography of arcane Shia theology to his credit, whose conservative views on the role of Islam in society will reshape the new Iraq? Or a great modernizer who issued a fatwa saying women should vote even if their husbands objected? "The language that Sistani uses in Arabic is quite distinctly drawn from the Enlightenment, from Rousseau and from Jefferson: a legitimate government derives from the choice of its people," says Juan Cole of the University of Michigan, an expert on the Shia.
But the ayatollah also has insisted that Iraq's new constitution must be in line with Islamic principles, and recognize Islam as the nation's religion. Iraq's women are encouraged to vote as they want but, under Sistani's teachings, they won't be able to shake the hand of any man other than a father, brother or husband. (Sistani also forbids music for entertainment, dancing and playing chess.) "It's the Shiite equivalent of the Christian Coalition," says Cole. "The Christian Coalition doesn't want pastors to rule America, but it does want Christian ideals to govern policy."
Sistani is both a savior and a frustration to American policymakers. "Yes, he's a kingmaker. Yes, he's powerful," says one U.S. official. "But he won't meet face to face." No American official has ever been able to see Sistani, whose aides say he thinks such a meeting would justify the U.S. occupation. But while he has condemned the occupation, he has never issued a fatwa against it?something that would be certain to bring millions of Shia into the streets. The Sunni-based rebellion has been difficult enough, but hardly a mass movement, and Sistani actually helped end the brief Shia rebellion led by Moqtada al-Sadr. "It's masterful," said the U.S. official, with grudging admiration. "Frankly, I have a lot of respect for his political savvy."

Those who suspect Sistani's true intentions are quick to note that the country's most powerful man is not even an Iraqi, but an Iranian. He came to Najaf, Shiite Islam's holiest city, more than 50 years ago as a disciple of the then Grand Ayatollah Abul Qasim al-Khoei. Until last August, Sistani never left, nor did he give up his Iranian citizenship. Al-Rubaie said he offered to get him an Iraqi passport after Saddam's regime fell, but Sistani's response was characteristic: "He said, 'Dr. Rubaie, what would I do with this? I'm a man going to his grave. I haven't left Najaf for 13 years. Why do I need it?' " When he developed heart trouble last August, he went to London for treatment on his Iranian passport. Although Sistani made it a religious obligation to vote in Iraq's elections, he wasn't qualified to cast a ballot himself. His followers say he's above nationality, as the Roman Catholic pope would be. "He's the spiritual leader of all the Shia in the world," says Sheik Jalaladin al-Saghir, imam of an important mosque in Baghdad. "Iranians as much as Iraqis."

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majortom

And don't forget Depleted Uranium and the
Gulf War Syndrome: Killing Our Own
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/gulf-war-syndrome/

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Slutboat

"But the ayatollah also has insisted that Iraq's new constitution must be in line with Islamic principles, and recognize Islam as the nation's religion. Iraq's women are encouraged to vote as they want but, under Sistani's teachings, they won't be able to shake the hand of any man other than a father, brother or husband. (Sistani also forbids music for entertainment, dancing and playing chess.)"


Is this progress? Was this worth 4,418 American Deaths (and counting)...

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SallyRand

There is nothing in the deserts of Iraq or Iran worth a single American life.

Iraq should be abandoned forthwith and allowed to continue to be the primitive, stone-age culture that it is and if it gets out of control, should be dealt with in a very terminal manner.

There is NO reason for our young warriors to die in the desert that is Afghanistan.

You hoped for change and you got the SAME OLD SHIT!

BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW AND LET THE ARABS HAVE THEIR ROCKS, SAND AND DESERTS!

They will self-destruct anyway and others will be there to pck up the pieces.

If they fuck with the reat of the CIVILIZED World, take them out, forthwith and that can be done from a distance which will minimize casualties on the side of CIVILIZATION!

Sally.*

*Oops!

Gotta go see my spnosor, r.e.: my addiction to political threads.

Except that this may be a "survival" thread.

I dunno.

Sally.

Slutboat

Well said Sally.

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SallyRand

Thank you!

Sally.

Slutboat

"Basra's murderous militias tell Christian women to cover up or face death"


Ali Hamdani in Basra and James Hider in Baghdad

On her first day at Basra University this year a man came up to Zeena, a 21-year-old Christian woman, and three other Christian girls and ordered them to cover their heads with a hijab, or Islamic headscarf.
?We didn't listen to him, and thought he might just be some extremist student representing only himself,? she said. The next day Zeena and two of her friends returned to class with uncovered heads.
This time a man in the black clothes of the Shia militia stopped them at the entrance and took them aside. ?He said, 'We asked you yesterday to wear a hijab, so why are you and your friends not covering your hair?'. He was talking very aggressively and I was scared,? Zeena recalled.
The girls explained that they were Christians and that their faith did not call for headscarves. ?He said: 'Outside this university you are Christian and can do what you want; inside you are not. Next time I want to see you wearing a hijab or I swear to God the three of you will be killed immediately',? Zeena recalled. Terrified, the girls ran home. They now wear the headscarf all the time.


In the past five months more than 40 women have been murdered and their bodies dumped in the street by militiamen, according to the Basra police chief. Major-General Abdul-Jalil Khalaf said that some of them had been killed alone, others gunned down with their children. One unveiled mother was murdered together with her children aged 6 and 11.
The British Army will formally hand Basra over to Iraqi control in less than two weeks, claiming that it had done all it could to stabilise the southern port city during four years in charge. Yet as a tentative stability returns to Baghdad, where even alcohol shops are starting to reopen, Britain appears to be leaving Basra ever more firmly in the hands of lawless gangs and strict morality police.
Messages are scrawled in graffiti warning women not to venture out without observing Islamic dress codes. ?Whoever disobeys will be punished. God is our witness that we have conveyed this message,? says one scrawled in red paint on a wall. A huge advert for mobile phones, featuring a mother and child, has been defaced to blot out the uncovered woman's head with the slogan ?No, no, to unveiled women? sprayed below.
At the university, Sunni students complain of being harassed by Shia militias. Ahmed, a 19-year-old Sunni freshman, was told that he had to grow a beard but keep his hair short to adhere to Islamic norms. He said that boys and girls who try to sit next to each other will be told to stay apart and given a lecture on Islamic virtue.
Self-appointed morality police, similar to the Bassiji who haunt students across the border in Iran, also grab people's mobile phones and scroll through them looking for ?immoral? video clips, music or pictures, Ahmed said.
Another student, Ali Yusuf, said that militiamen halted a freshers' week party for new students, turning off the music system and ripping down the decorations. One armed thug picked up the DJ's microphone and started praising Hojatoleslam Moqtada al-Sadr, the fanatical cleric who leads al-Mahdi Army, the most powerful Shia militia, before reading out a list of rules.
Despite Basra's increasing similarity to the repressive Iranian theocracy, which many believe has exerted it influence over the city, Britain says that its work here is done, and plans to reduce troop levels to only 2,500. Critics say that will barely allow the Army to protect its own base at Basra airport.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3018766.ece

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Freedom lost
After the invasion of Iraq, the US government claimed that women there had 'new rights and new hopes'. In fact their lives have become immeasurably worse, with rapes, burnings and murders now a daily occurrence. By Mark Lattimer

They lie in the Sulaimaniyah hospital morgue in Iraqi Kurdistan, set out on white-tiled slabs. A few have been shot or strangled, some beaten to death, but most have been burned. One girl, a lock of hair falling across her half-closed eyes, could almost be on the point of falling asleep. Burns have stretched the skin on another young woman's face into a fixed look of surprise.
These women are not casualties of battle. In fact, the cause of death is generally recorded as "accidental", although their bodies often lie unclaimed by their families.
"It is getting worse, especially the burnings," says Khanim Rahim Latif, the manager of Asuda, an Iraqi organisation based in Kurdistan that works to combat violence against women. "Just here in Sulaimaniyah, there were 400 cases of the burning of women last year." Lack of electricity means that every house has a plentiful supply of oil, and she accepts that some cases may be accidents. But the nature and scale of the injuries suggest that most were deliberate, she says, handing me the morgue photographs of one young woman after another. Many of the bodies bear the unmistakable signs of having been subjected to intense heat.
"In many cases the woman is accused of adultery, or of a relationship before she is married, or the marriage is not sanctioned by the family," Khanim says. Her husband, brother or another relative will kill her to restore their "honour". "If he is poor the man might be arrested; if he is important, he won't be. And in most cases, it is hidden. The body might be dumped miles away and when it is found the family says, 'We don't have a daughter.'" In other cases, disputes over such murders are resolved between families or tribes by the payment of a forfeit, or the gift of another woman. "The authorities say such agreements are necessary for social stability, to prevent revenge killings," says Khanim.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/13/gender.iraq

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DaddyHalbucks

If the US blocked 'Islam' and theocratic leaders --you'd be bitching that we destroyed their culture.

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SallyRand

Aw, fuck'em; if they want to be primitive, stone-age people, let them! WE have problems enough at home.

Americans should not die in any effort to bring primitives into the Twenty First Century.

They will do so on their own of they will collapse all on their own.

The Warmonger in the White House should bring our valiant warriors home or be deposed!

Sally.

Slutboat

No my man I would never bitch about destroying a culture that routinely mutilates the female genitalia. I like pussy.

The US had no choice to "Block" the current theocratic gov. in Iraq... Sistani is THE SOLE reason we are able to pull out our combat forces. He is far more responsible for the current relative peace than the so called "Surge"

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Slutboat

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I was simply posting some facts to back up my statements in the original post as I was called a Moron for doing so.... Notice the crickets now?

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Rangermoore

Yes I was in the service, 1st Ranger Bn, 3rd Ranger Bn, JSOC, just to name a few units.

The last time I was in iraq was 2004, 2005, & 2006. I was in a mostly rural area south of Baghdad, The Sunni triangle, triangle of death, I traveled to baghdad good a bit to go to the embassy . Iskandariyah was the closest city to us. The women all went around with nothing on their heads. Some choose to wear the traditional head coverings but most did not. The girls were all in school if their parents would allow. But they had a choice.

Yes sistani is a very powerful man in iraq but Muqtada al-Sadr I would say was more powerful in some parts of iraq. I had al-Sadr cornered in Najaf in my scope and could have allowed him to meet his god, but the word from higher was not to harm him... I had to question myself as to if I was going to obey that command or just play the "your breaking up" game. In the end I backed out. I feel that was a BIG mistake.. I should have put the bullet in his head.

I do agree with you on this point, I do feel that life in iraq and the area was better under saddam. I do not agree with killing other heads of state by outside folks. That is something to be left to the people of that country.

SallyRand

Yeppers, got that and you are far from a moron and fuck those you say that to you!

Thank you for your kind post and your belief in this once Geat Nation!

Sally.

howardzinn

OP is partially right. Saddam was installed by the CIA then for whatever reason (invasion of Kuwait) they decided they didn't want to be friends anymore.

The entire messed situation in the middle east and 911 is the result of blowback from funding these crazy islamist fuckers in the 80s. The US should never have funded and trained Bin Laden, they shouldn't have overthrown the Shah of Iran, they shouldn't have installed Saddam. US foreign policy is to blame for most of this stuff. The shit that went down during the cold war is to blame for a lot of that middle east meddling. Something right wingers have a hard time understanding, they just prefer to think these extremists 'hate the US way of life', that's only a part of it.

The worst part of the whole clusterfuck is how easily the lies about weapons of mass destruction fell from our politicians mouths. Also the billions of dollars privately held companies made from the war is disturbing, Eisenhower warned us all those years ago about the military industrial complex and privatization/corporatism of war, but we didn't listen...

Slutboat

Ranger this country owes you a debt of gratitude and once again I thank you for your service.

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Rangermoore

Thank you.. But no thanks needed.. It was an Honor.. I owe this country a debt of gratitude for just simply being born an American...

cykoe6

Why does Slutboat feel the need to constantly keep us informed of the latest left wing talking points. I am sure if people cared there are plenty of places to find out the latest company line...... like at HuffPo for example.

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SomeCreep

Nigga, please. No one is going to read all that shit.

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