blackmonsters

Too funny.



PS: 50 MoFo's that need a chin kick.

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TurboAngel

That was a great fucking kick.

TheDoc

I never said fully locked choke, I only said choke hold.

Fully locked was in reference to the armbar.

And you can break fully locked rear naked choke, it's just not easy. I'm more than sure you've trained on how to do it, so I'm not sure why it's not possible for others to do it.

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blackmonsters

Seagal is trying to "lock in" all the fighters so that they have to make action
movies only with him.

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TheDoc

Damn, either one of those was a girl? That's some scary shit. Again though, I said wife, aka house wife - and did say, not girls that train, which we know can kick ass because of that training, the strength gain, and everything else associated with that training.

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Anthony

For my daughter to learn, she has to do it. Considering she has 4 years of BJJ training, why wouldn't she have my back and apply the choke?

Because you are talking like someone who's never been in a fully locked armbar or choke, really. I hear this all the time from people who have never trained, and only two have ever stepped up from the webmaster community to see for themselves. Both times, I started on the ground on my back, them standing, and both times it ended with me on their backs and them tapping to RNC.

Shootfighting as in what they called stiff albeit fake wrestling?

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Anthony

True to some extent. But all things considered, she was lighter than him, and he is a Blackbelt. Gave her some trouble too. I may have used a bad example there, as Kyra Gracie is the Granddaughter of one of the creators of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

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Anthony

Ok, semantics really. As in you don't half choke someone.

I've trained to stop the choke before it's fully locked on, but even then it's a fight. Once it's locked on, the defense is to reach up over you head to pull their hand off the back of your head. But then they just transition to the cable grip, and you've been in a blood choke about 2 or 3 seconds. I've seen it once in a professional MMA fight where they got out of a RNC.

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TheDoc

Agreed... but no mater what I still think you let her get the advantage.


Shootfighting is a cross between muay thai and submission wrestling - it's mixed arts, learn/use whatever. If you want to learn much of the same stuff BJJ teaches but keep your joints from blowing out as fast, take Shootfighting.

I've tapped on armbars, many times... and on choke holds. Again, we aren't talking about YOU putting ME in one, ie: adult males - we're talking about a house wife putting them on someone like you - and you not letting them.

I'm sorry, I don't believe you that you couldn't get out of it.

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JustDaveXxx

No disrespect to you or your wife, but she must have a lame instructor.


I sold BJJ classes for the Machados by having the wrestle girls. Had 3 female ringers that were only purple belts at the time.

Ryan Greg, who is co owner of OTM Fight gear, a current BJJ Black belt with a crap load of trophies and titles will disagree with your statements above. I personally trained him and got him started in BJJ 12 years ago, will tell you himself that i put him and all people who doubted bjj and were interested in the intro classes, to train with a girl and an 12 year old boy.


Both whooped his and all comers asses. Ryan got both arms cracked and he got choked almost unconscious. He did not want to tap out and was in serious disbeilif on what was happening to him by this girl and boy. This guy was 170lbs and a good street fighter (so he said) and wrestled in high school a bit.

The girl that whooped him good was Cathy Brothers and he will admit to it. He is not ashamed of it at all. But it was the true technicality of BJJ the whooped him, not necessarily a girl.


Lastly my close friend Glen Chang, who is a purple belt(135lbs) in BJJ gets tapped out 4 out of 5 times by his wife Jocelyn Chang who is a legit black belt in BJJ (90lbs).



And finally; I may have trained way longer than Anthony in BJJ, but even i have to admit that he knows way more than i do on what is really what when it comes to BJJ and MMA than i do.


He is the true BJJ and MMA Knowledge 3 strip Black belt.

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TheDoc

Judo can break a RNC, look toward the choke arm, step wide towards the arm directly, push your hips back, role forward, and over they go - 100% of the time. On the ground, finger slips keep your veins beating in your neck, it's really not that hard to stay awake, it's just a bitch to get out of.

Maybe you need me to train you?

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Anthony

of course I did. We were training. Are you telling me you let your wife just choke you out of the blue?

I'm familiar with them, knew a couple of guys who did SF/Pankration. I was messing with you. Don't know anyone who does SF/Pankration anymore as they have either gone to BJJ or MMA now. [/quote]

Well, now that you quantify it that way, of course not. I'm trained, and you are. But the usual joe blow out in the street, I'm betting the house wife could.

When this is the average joe's skill level, it's not hard to fathom.

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Anthony

A standing choke hold, sure the judo move does work, it's part of the Gracie Jiu Jitsu Defense syllabus. But if I have the RNC on you, you aren't standing, and you won't be moving. In BJJ, it's Position before Submission.

On the ground, I'll put $100 bucks down that while you are trying to get your fingers in a fully locked on RNC, you won't last very long.

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TheDoc

I know you guys like to suck each others cocks in these mma threads, but my god..... I made it really clear we aren't talking about trained females.

I've said many times, anyone that trains has a serious advantage.... all around. And 90lbs to 135 isn't a weight advantage, 90lbs to a 6'6" 265lb heavy weight is though.

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TheDoc

It wont save you forever, but it only has to save you long enough to start trying to break it.

If my wife has that hold on me, I'm getting out of it - if you have it on me, it's going to be hell if not impossible for me to get out of - but I will stay awake a hell of a lot longer than 3-7 seconds. Which is what we talking about here - we aren't talking about me breaking your lock.

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Anthony

No, you made a generic statement, then later backtracked it by saying a housewife. Or it wouldn't have gone this far.

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Anthony

You really think that? I'd put my money that your wife, taught the proper technique and form, would make you tap or choke you out cold. Though, I don't know if she is willing to put you through that, as she is your wife. My 2 cents anyways.

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TheDoc

She can anytime she wants

That's the point though, you knew it was coming and did nothing to stop it... even when it was on you. So really, an 11 year old didn't get a rnc on you and choke you out, you let an 11 year old get it on you and choke you when you could have easily broken it anytime you wanted.





Isn't mma basically like shootfighting, ie: mixed arts?



B.S. aside you probably never want to put me in an RNC, I get horny as fuck when I'm choked, the harder the choke the harder I get... no b.s. either, no idea why. Even if I pass out, I wake up like a rock.

That's a great video... memories of high school come flashing back.

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Anthony

Don't believe me Doc, take it from a BJJ Blackbelt who's trained longer than you and me combined x 2. He's seen it, done it, got the shirt, and is bored with it.

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TheDoc

No, I first started talking about this related to my wife, and I also said untrained females - and said training did make a difference.. And you even replied back to me saying 'your wife' before I made the statements you quoted above. I didn't really think I needed to keep saying my wife, my wife, my wife 50 times over.

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TheDoc

I don't disagree with what he said... but what he stated isn't anything related to what we're talking about.

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Anthony

It was training, of course. That was in answer to breaking it after it's locked on. It's my, at the time 11 year old. I could pretty much do whatever I want, but it defeats the purpose of her learning it, and being able to use it. Joe Blow won't know how to defend it.


Well kinda. Bart Vale made up the name when he was being interview about his wrestling back in Japan, pre Pancrase days. He called it shoot fighting. It was open hand strikes at the time, and didn't have the subtleties and technical excellence that BJJ has with submissions and setups.

Auto erotica my friend. With this new information, we will have to go to email to cyber.

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Anthony

Ok, I see where you are coming from. But my whole thing is that it can be trained, and a smaller woman can and has choked out larger males. Why I offered to teach her.


To the point that he, like I were thinking that a trained smaller woman or male for that matter would win over a larger opponent.

Keep in mind, both of us came to this conclusion in this discussion.

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TheDoc

Hold on... if you go back and look you'll see this started with me being told a kid could put these moves on you and hold them, ie: all technique..

That's all I'm saying - I know what you did it for, that is understandable - which I did say as well.


Ah, did not know that.. but I have always thought BJJ had far better take downs.



Choking myself doesn't really do it... it has to be done by someone else.

This has been happening to me since I was a teenager.

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TheDoc

I don't think you "showing her" is going to get her to do it... if she trains in it, dedicates a few years to it, then probably so.




Do you think a 90lb trained fighter would beat a 250lb heavy weight trained fighter? Male to male... probably not, in most cases.

90lbs to 135 isn't really a difference on trained fighters, and 170lb male to your weight, isn't that much of a difference. You might be a little stronger, but it's not over powering by that much.

Male to female though, I don't out weight my wife by that much - and I can over power her by 100's of times her own strength. She can't pick me up, I can easily pick her up and toss her...

Now maybe if she trained every day for years - I'm sure it would be a greatly different story, because I wouldn't be 100's of times stronger than her anymore.

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Anthony

She's been training BJJ since 9, already knew how to apply it. Training aka sparring with her, gives her the chance to use it in real time against a resisting opponent. I resisted, but only marginally, and let her lock it on. Like your argument the average girl can't do this, well the average guy wouldn't know how to defend it prior to be locked on, nor while they are going to sleep.

The RNC is probably the easiest submission to teach, as it's a high percentage one to use. An effective one entails knowing the little things that make it uber effective, like pushing the head forward with your back hand and placing your face on your hand to create more pressure; squeezing with your whole body like you are hugging them versus just using your arms to apply the choke.

90lbs vs 250lbs, same amount of training, no. There's an old Brazilian saying when it comes to weight classes, and training. "For every belt, add 20lbs."
Belts are: white, blue, purple, brown, black

So a purple belt would be able to handle a weight difference of white belt who's 60lbs heavier, and so on. All due to technique and training.

Without a doubt, same weight the male is stronger. That's why BJJ was created. Helio was 140lbs, and would fight 250lbs fighters, and win. It's about leverage and technique. Six months of training, and she would surprise you my friend, a year and it wouldn't even be funny the ownage she would cause. We've had this discussion before, JustDave says 2 to 3 times a week and you'll get good, i'm more of the 5 times plus a week.

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Anthony

Pretty close to the weight difference you mentioned. The difference between trained and non trained.

Royce Gracie vs Akebono


Another one

Genki Sudo vs Butterbean

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TheDoc

The showing her was in reference to my wife, but it works the same with your daughter. She had to train to do it, not really just be shown.



Interesting... never knew that.


oh I know, even once a week boxing training has a hell of a difference over nothing for several months... so doing any type of training 2-3 times a week or daily, is just going to advance the person that much faster.

I have a feeling this Helio fellow was highly trained

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TheDoc

That is some serious fat dudes... damnnnnnnn. Wouldn't that type of size be a huge disadvantage?

Fat, sweaty, blubber of a body... they would win by default with me.

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Anthony

There's some great BJJ academies I'm sure around where you live Doc!

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TheDoc

I can't take it anymore... I creak already, that's just warming up.

But I love to box, I practice 3-4 days a week for 15min to an hour or so each time.. I can do the 30/30/30 non-stop for an hour, no breaks.

They have a killer boxing club here in town, from am to pro - I just haven't had the time to check out and give it a try, but I need the sparing practice really bad. Need someone to smack me everytime I put an elbow forward.

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Relentless

This may be the only time I disagree with you on an MMA topic. Gable is definitely not the best who never fought in MMA. That would be Aleksandr Karelin, no contest.


He won gold medals at the 1988, 1992, and 1996 Olympic Games. He went undefeated in international competition spanning from 1987 to 2000. Karelin went the last six years of his unbeaten streak without giving up a single point! If MMA had a real following when he was at his peak, nobody would have beaten him for YEARS.

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Anthony

Two different styles my brother. But you are right. Karelin is the best wrestler ever.

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TheDoc

Good lord... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Karelin

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fuzebox

This thread is retarded

TheDoc, aikido is not the best way for women to defend themselves.

Anthony, TheDoc saying aikido is good self defense was not an invite for you to type 8000 words of jiu jitsu advertising.

DirtyDanza

I dunno dood... I trained with many gracie's and I like to think I have great back skills...

ive never not gotten a choke once I get someones back for say the last year...

even with 16's on


The proper name is Mata Leon which translates to Lion Kill they don't call it that cause it's an easy choke to get out of....

im fairly certian that if I was to take your back you can do all the judo and slamming you want to and ill still get ya to sleep.. it's just nature of the beast.... there is no way you can slam me when im on your back that's going to really hurt me or get me to release my "seatbelt" (other jits guys know the seatbelt) and once you reach up to start fighting my hands well thast why I got my seatbelt on you... no matter which hand you go to im choking you with other hand....

and btw the smaller a person is the easier they lock chokes in on your properly.... small wrist = good chokes as robert drysdale ... he has really shitty jits but he has very small wrists and lands chokes all day long motherfucker can land flying armbars all day long buy lost worlds to a fucking lapel choke... white belt 101 shit.....

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TheDoc

If you quoted me, you wouldn't have misquoted me.. I hate being misquoted, it pisses me off, but I'll give you some slack.

I said "I recommend all women take it, it's a great self defense style that requires very little power to move a person"

I never said it was the best... I think teaching a women to use a gun is much better self defense, if I had to take my guess, that's probably the best.

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TheDoc

As a trained fighter going against another fighter, put in that position, they probably couldn't get out of it - but again, that's not what we're talking about.

The topic twisted when I said my wife can't hold me in a chock hold or arm bar, and all of you went nuts.. and you said "once in the position a kid should be able to hold it no matter how strong the attacker is" - which is bullshit when my two boys can't move me if I don't want them to, let alone hold me, same goes for my wife.

Clearly, my wife and kids aren't trained... so trying to compare trained fighters, that we already know the out come of, is very pointless.

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DirtyDanza

gimmie 5 min with your kids and wife... they will have it locked in.... ill be happy to show them.. then ill show you the defense to it.....

then we end up at square 1 again...

hahaha


semper fi

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Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life

Isn't Aikido basically a fat load of shit as far as martial arts are concerned? Something like trying to kick someone's ass with Tai Chi? As far as I understood Aikido basically amounted to a performance art on par with ballet...

Anthony

We had fun with this thread tonight at dinner. Poor Billy Blanks read this thread and asked if what Doc said was viable once the RNC was locked in. Just Dave put him through the ringer. Now he knows.

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chaze

Pepper spray can do some serious damage, I got nailed with it from my sister once and I was in agony then I thought I was going to be blind.

Every girl should have this in her purse.

sternyduke

100% steven segal can't beat EVERYONE on this board, not just 99.9999999% no mater how old and fat he may be.

TheDoc

I explained how to break a standing RNC. You confirmed that is what is taught. What's the issue?

It's not like breaking a RNC from a trained person is ever going to be easy, for sure when a blackbelt life long trained fighter gets it on you... come on.

I didn't explain the ground one, just no reason to sit and explain every situation that could come about and again, if a life long trained blackbelt gets on you - it's going to be damn near impossible to get off.

I hope Billy is okay...

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BAKO

I'll choke you by blowing my kush smoke on your face

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TheDoc

Bong Hit Fights!

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HD Content

I am willing to put 100k against anyone of you guys against Seagal.

Even the great modest JustDave, who is great humble guy.
Notice how he did not go against Seagal, as a real true trained fighter knows Seagal will break any of you in about two seconds if you even try to approach him in any aggressive manner.

Again, I will bet 100k against any of you against Seagal. Who wants to bet?

I know Seagal will snap any of you in the first two seconds. I have been around the man. I am ready to bet

TheDoc

I'll get in the ring with anyone for a $100k - just have him name the place and I'll show up. Let me know and I'll shoot you over my wire details.

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beerptrol

after eading this thread I feel like I'm now a master at RNC.
so the next time my GF nags me POW RNC her ass to sleep. just call me Billy Bad Ass

Relentless

I'll get in the ring with him for $99,900 if you want to save some cash.

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