Shotsie

If you're a libertarian than you should be aware that wasteful government spending flies in the face of everything that you stand for. Maybe you should go read Atlas Shrugged if you haven't already. That seems to be the libertarian bible. Shit, your hero Ron Paul named his son after the author who coincidentally collected social security in her old age. Hypocritical cunt that she was.

pornmasta

I'm french and in thing that in less than 10 years France will have a planified economy...

Honnestly i have no opinion, i just want to live my life (nothing more).
If i'm too poor, it is not good for me if nobody helps me, so i'm not really libertarian.
If other people decide for me how i have to live my life (religion), it is not good too...

(right now it sucks a little bit to live in france)

Dcat

I like about 90% of what Ron Paul stands for, but at least this much is true.. When Ron Paul says he'll do something, he's going to do it. At least you know where the guy stands, unlike the rest of these lying globalist funded political whores.


The establishment is running scared.

bushwacker

At the end of the day he is still a CAREER POLITICIAN.

acrylix

Great point.

Ron Paul is:

- a CAREER POLITICIAN who has never voted for a congressional pay raise.

- a CAREER POLITICIAN who does not take part in the congressional pension program.

- a CAREER POLITICIAN who as President, will take a salary of $39,336, which is approximately equal to the average income of the American worker. Unlike the $400,000 salary it is today.

Socks

Your position is that society only takes care of its people when it's forced to by its government, which I don't think is true at all. In my opinion older people are treated better by their families in poor countries, because not having a social net forces families to stay together and deal with their problems. Kids live at home longer. Parents stay married longer.

Without the government bloat, how many extra dollars would actually make it to the projects that do good? All government monies come from the people, and they've done a shit job of handling that money, in just about every country on earth, no matter what political party or type of government it is.

The only solution to that problem is to have a smaller government with less responsibilities.

The cost of government isn't just the income tax. It's the debt burden on all their purchases and programs. They have too many opportunities to put things on our tab.

Slutboat

Ron Paul is a fucking lunatic and a crackpot. To say that you agree with the sheer IDIOCRACY that is Libertarianism is to say ONLY this: You want the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer.

Seems none of you realize that the whole Libertarian phylosophy is cooked up by affluent racists so they can stop helping poor people, namely black people, and stop paying federal taxes and end public schools, and public police departments and public fire departments and social security and ALL social programs. Great! let's let the crazy Libertarian nut jobs isolate locally into their tight, white, and right little communities so the inner city ghettos fall deeper into shit holes, old people get thier electricity turned off and poor people can make some nice tent cities to live in! Good Plan!

Libertarianism is the most vile and anti American doctrine of our age and it will never gain any widspread traction outside of the fringe wacko FAR right. The only middle or lower class segments of society who would ever embrace such policies, as in the case of the backward inbred Teabagger crowd, would do so drastically against their own best interests, and would only be duped into this crap by the exploitation of their uneducated fear of government and deep rooted racism.

The various platforms it stands for and the current surge (scourge) in it's popularity due to the rise of the ultra-racist all white (nearly) Tea Party. And it certainly is no "Wave" of popularity just because some inbred Kentucky hillbilly got elected to congress. Rand Paul.. what a joke, he wants to let restaurant owners put up signs that say "No Blacks Allowed" is that the America you want to return to?

The Libertarian philosophy is the biggest pile of horseshit ever to dump its steaming right wing crap on this nation. Hey great you want individual PROPERTY RIGHTS for ultimate freedom for land owners! Too bad if you don't own property or are on public assistance. This is the same crowd that wanted total freedom for slave owners - Hey you want no government interference in your total freedoms! This is the same bullshit the south was saying about the "aggression" or the north prior to the civil war. You guys are such vile anti-American assholes - your wacko ideals would be scary if they weren't so irrelevant as to be almost meaningless.

The Libertarinuts want to abolish all social programs including social security, medicare, medicade, and any public assistance and health care for the poor - you want to abolish the public school system and let the "free market" determine who gets educated - are you fuckers NUTS? Yea great idea - lets let 95 percent of all the kids in the inner cities grow up illiterate! Cool! Watch the ghettos double or triple in size in the first decade, watch crime spiral out of control and the murder rate skyrocket.

The Libertaricunts want to privatize and localize all fire departments and get rid of publicly funded emergency rooms, hey great idea guys! You didn't pay your local fire safety fees? Sorry gotta let your house burn! Don't cry about it slacker!

Libertarians want to privatize and localize all police departments and let them make up their own local laws and enforce only those that they wish to - uh oh your area is too poor to afford cops? no 911 for you pal.. oh another lynching in Alabama? - the cops don't have to do shit because there is only local oversight.. great idea clowns!

So you don't like Unions - get rid of em! Who needs a middle class right? Oh and fair trade, fuck that! No dirty federal government should try to force the SACRED CORPORATION to keep it's factories in the US though any stinking tariffs right?

Abortion? Oh thats a local matter - if your local council doesn't want to allow abortion then let them force 14 year old girls to have their cherry poppin fathers baby right! Thats a local issue, no feds can interfere... it's all about FREEDOM.

Oh and bring on the Militias and we better have them well armed! In case those dirty stinking feds try to come around our FREE LANDS.. And NO government restrictions on the Holy Corporation's right to pollute the environment, of course polluting the environment is bad for business so the free market will make sure things stay clean right? Gimme a fucking break.

The nice thing about Libertarianism is that it exists only as pure fantasy, not even the mildest form of it could ever exist, in this country at least, so go ahead and shake your white fist at the clouds in anger at having to pay taxes to help your fellow poor black man get outta the hood you fucking greed mongers, the Fed aint going away anytime soon.

__________________
The Slut Boat soon will be making another run
The Slut Boat promises something for everyone

acrylix

The fact that resident rambler Slutboat doesn't like him is practically an endorsement.

bushwacker

Well that should knock the deficit down.

acrylix

Nope, but this could: http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issue...store-america/

Bill8

Slutboat you don't understand libertarian theory and policy - but thats not uncommon, almost none of the people who call themselves libertarian actually ARE libertarian, not can they describe libertaraian theory and policy.

However, some year ago a fairly famous article was written, Why Libertarians Can't Govern, which does a good job of describing why libertarianism can't work in a society like ours.

Basically, libertarianism requires a well educated population with roughly equal access to good and accurate information - and our society is the exact opposite of that, we are incredibly poorly educated, and our economy and media and social systems all depend on UN-equal access to information.

So, libertarians can't govern. We'd have to spend 50 years just to prepare our society for the simpler kinds of libertarian governance.

But, we could incorporate some libertarian principles into our current system to some benefit.

Thing is, we won't - probably ever - because doing so would take government handouts away from the military industrial complex and the prison industrial complex and other deeply corrupted anti-libertarian government/private collusions, and the corruption there goes too deep for them to allow libertarian principles to be passed into law or enforced.

But, Ron Paul is not libertarian - so that pretty much is that.

AtlantisCash

Slow down cowboy, You don't have to spit offf Your ignorance all over here, You live in a country with freest constitution all around the globe which is written/made by American founding fathers who wher kinda Libertarians of their time.

Racism? fuck that, Your blackness or whiteness can not be an excuse to act like an asshole.

if you can't be a respected person with a propper work thats Your problem, blame Yourself not Your skin colour.

i don't even live in Your country, we Turks are white too, however we don't have any blood ties wwith the so called whites in Usa, maybe i m scared gettho blacks get paid with my tax liras to? and that could be the reason i have Libertarian views?

Sorry but You sound to me an obsessive person who got problem with His skin colour and i oppologise from all the other black friends here due to i had to say this.

for the side note: i wouldn't mind if a restaurant puts a sign saying Turks can not come in, it's better than bunch of neonazis attacking me due to my ethnic identity

and fuck all the ethnic identities and races btw.

__________________
Kız telefonları
|
Telefonda seks sohbet

AtlantisCash

Your post saved my time a lot, Thank You...

__________________
Kız telefonları
|
Telefonda seks sohbet

porno jew

while a bit bombastic, slutload is right. that is the america that would happen if libertarian principles were applied.

porno jew

and since extreme libertarianism would increase every gap - education, information access, class, etc. your theory is inherently flawed.

Shotsie

My position is that government is necessary to redress some of the inequities of the marketplace. I'm not going to advocate removing social safety nets on the off chance that people will somehow be more inclined to give to charity because we both know that that's a completely unrealistic view. I can't believe you're actually holding up third-world countries as an example of what we should aspire to be. That just further proves my point that libertarianism is a regressive form of government.


Like I said, selfishness lies at the core of the average libertarian's mindset. Some of them will try to quote some ivory tower intellectuals from the Ludwig Von Mises institute or Ayn Rand, pseudo-economists and a sociopathic author, the type of people that think every complex problem in the world can be broken down and solved in a two paragraph article. The type of people who seem to be completely disconnected from reality. All it is is a weak attempt to justify their own selfishness, IMO. Good thing it's only a fantasy that will never become a reality.


I agree that government can be trimmed down in certain areas, but here in The United States the so-called libertarian Republicans go after The Department of Education and the Enviromental Protection Agency, meanwhile you won't hear them say a word about the enormous military industrial complex. What kind of message is that to send? Basically what they're telling us is that bullets, bombs and guns are more important than children's education and the environment.

AtlantisCash

This wasn't an issue You samplified Tea partiers tı be a Libertarian and i told You they're not.

is Libertarianism a selfish philosophy? depends from which aspect You look it from, however Lots of Humans are selfish natured creatures too, since Libertarianism reflects the most natural desires of Humanity which is freedom from boath social and economic sides, it's normal to sound to be selfish.

on the other hand i have to call what You said about collectivism is a miss conception, Libertarian ideas does not oppose volantary collective fundings and actually offers it as an alternative to welfare state and that's called volantary society which You probabely know.

Yes we got better developped brain than Lizards do and thats why we need a Libertarian system to perform our own potencial.

Lastly You don't need to be a multy millionare to be a Libertarian, every one pay taxes including Middle class and people with low income, think about it, what wil happen when You get taxt around 1% to 10%,? prices will drop and wouldn't it be affecting pourchussing power in a positive way?

and also i don't think only rich need individual Liberties but all of us right?

__________________
Kız telefonları
|
Telefonda seks sohbet

AtlantisCash

[QUOTE=Shotsie;18509806]Like I said, selfishness lies at the core of the average libertarian's mindset. Some of them will try to quote some ivory tower intellectuals from the Ludwig Von Mises institute or Ayn Rand, pseudo-economists and a sociopathic author, the type of people that think every complex problem in the world can be broken down and solved in a two paragraph article. The type of people who seem to be completely disconnected from reality. All it is is a weak attempt to justify their own selfishness, IMO. Good thing it's only a fantasy that will never become a reality. /(quote)







i don't think Things could be solved with 2 paragraph articals though Libertarians mostly take the realistic events as base, See Murray Rotbard Man is not Nostradamus yet he knew the today's banking system's situation around 20 years ago, it may tell you something :w cents:

__________________
Kız telefonları
|
Telefonda seks sohbet

SwirlsGirl

you can't teach gfy'ers anything they don't aready know...they are experts at everything and masters of nothing.

AtlantisCash

You're right, but what amuzes me is none of them actually brought up something intellectual yet some claim us to be unrealistic.

i should admit thats highly ironic for me because we were calling communists to be utopic and i m not using this arguement since a long time and saw how i've done correct to not use it anymore

__________________
Kız telefonları
|
Telefonda seks sohbet

Emil

__________________
Free 🅑🅘🅣🅒🅞🅘🅝🅢 Every Hour (Yes, really. Free ₿itCoins.)
(Signup with ONLY your Email and Password. You can also refer people and get even more.)

Barry-xlovecam

Robbie

LOL!

That is so stupid!

If 99 out of 100 people believe a certain thing and "call" themselves a "Libertarian"...well guess what? THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A LIBERTARIAN!

It doesn't matter what some guy wrote as a theory of what Libertarian means. What matters is what the majority of folks who identify themselves as Libertarians believe and how they live their lives.

That's one of the problems with shit. When you have people TELLING me what I am and what I'm not all according to some book or article.

NO! It doesn't work that way in real life! Only in fantasyland.

Ron Paul is mostly Libertarian in his views (and I'm talking about REAL LIFE libertarian, not something you read about). He has always ran as a Republican because unless you are a Republican or a Democrat it's almost impossible to even get on a ballot to be voted for.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

Robbie

So goddamn stupid! lol

People are all individuals. Everybody has differing views on different issues and subjects according to what it affects in their lives.

There really isn't and "average" anything in this world. Well...except perhaps the intelligence of people making proclamations about "Democrats", "Republicans", and "Libertarians" all being monolithic and not having individual wants and needs.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

ner0

Ron Paul is the only guy running that can save the Republic. I would love to hear from the trolls about which candidate they think can save the country? Obama? Clinton? LOL. Ok. We will see what happens when the economy crumbles... then all the morons will learn their lesson and know what needs to be done to fix things.

Bill8

Why would it? let's see how well you understand the theory.

Here's a place to start - what are the legitimate roles of government in classic libertarian theory?

(There are a number of different schools of libertariansm, and as I said many people who call themselves libertarian are NOT libertarian - but all the legitimate schools of libertarianism tend to agree on the legitimate roles of government model.)

Bill8

No, it's not. By definition. You are imposing an incorrect definition. Calling yourself libertarian does not make you a libertarian, the policies do.

Ron Paul is not libertarian, he's a republican, with some libertarian views in his polliices.

The libertarian views you can indentify in his poliicies most easily are - end the war on drugs, because government does not have a legitimate interest in controlling people's bodies or entertainment choices. And end the corporate wars, because government does not have a legitimate interest in wars that are not for defense.

Wars of aggression and adventure are not legitimate in libertarian policy.

However, as I said, libertarians can't govern a society like ours.

So, there is some truth to your objection, because if someone like Ron Paul, a republican with some libertarian views, both got elected, and swept the congress and replaced a majority with other republicans with some libertarian views, what we would end up with is a mustated form of republicanism, which would be essentially an oligarchy, a plutocracy even worse that what we have now.

However, it's silly to propose this, Ron Paul won't be allowed to run for president, and even if he did, congress on both sides would block him, so what we would end up with is the worst deadlock we've ever seen.

Robbie

By WHO'S definition is my point.

As I already said...if 99% of the people who state they are Libertarian believe a certain thing. And that thing goes against what some article/book says that a Libertarian SHOULD believe...then which is correct?

Well, here in the real world, that would be the living, breathing Libertarians.

And I'm not arguing that Ron Paul is a "by the definition" Libertarian.

But like ALL Libertarians (remember, they don't FOLLOW the "rules") he has many viewpoints that argue that a man should be FREE, and that the govt. doesn't have the right to control us.

I think we can agree that Ron Paul's views are more in line with what a person who thinks of himself as "Libertarian" would identify with as opposed to the other Republican candidates.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

acrylix

It does sound crazy to eliminate the Dept. of Education. I mean, Education? Cutting that sounds almost as bad as not voting to renew the "Patriot" Act. But let's think about this for a moment...

The Department of Education was not created until 1979. We put a man on the moon a decade before that, and built the world's first atomic weapons even earlier. What exactly has this department done to improve education since 1979, and why is it's existence absolutely necessary today?

The fact is that serious budget cuts need to be made if we want to bring the U.S. economy in for an emergency landing instead of a violent crash. I think the average American is beginning to realize this.

Also, Ron Paul certainly falls into the "so-called libertarian Republicans" group which you spoke of when claiming, we "won't hear them say a word about the enormous military industrial complex." However, a simple YouTube search proves this claim to be false:

https://youtube.com/results?searc...rial+comp lex

Bill8

Libertarians actually have a fairly strict set of rules. Not following rules means you are an anarchist, not a libertarian.

Anarchism also has a lot to be said for it as political theory - but that's neither here nor there.

No, Paul says a few things that have libertarian qualities - he never says certain things that are characteristic policies of either classic libertarianism or any of it's modern variants.

Libertarians do NOT say that individuals have the right to be free, they say that government's roles should be limited in specific ways. It is up to the individuals to manage their own lives and economies within the environment of limited government roles.

There is a litmus test that can be applied to all claims of libertarian theory and policy - and I have yet to read a single person in this thread mention the legitimate role of government that colors that litmus test.

Very few people here seem to understand libertarian theory.

porno jew

governments role in libertarian theory is to enforce property rights.

i feel like i am in uni again.

Bill8

Partial, but true. And how does that happen? How does a libertarian policy government protect individual rights?

Shotsie

The majority of his policies would never stand a chance making it through Congress. His budget proposal would decimate funding for a lot of worthwhile projects. Not to mention erasing 1 trillion from the economy would shrink the economy by basically 1 trillion. There is no way the private sector would come close to filling that right away. The private sector already has trillions in cash. Even if you believe that is the appropriate size of the government in the long-run this would still be absolutely devastating in the short to medium run. That's not an emergency landing, that's a fucking kamikaze landing.

Shotsie

Let me clarify that, the average American Libertarian Party member's mindset in it's strictest sense. I'm aware that there are different types of libertarians. Shit, there's libertarian communists, but we're talking about the "keep your government hands out of my medicaid" libertarians.

acrylix

It seems we could be headed for a kamikaze landing as it is:

Reuters - "U.S. rating likely to be downgraded again" (10/23/2011)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79M2J120111023

At this point, I don't believe we have the luxury of asking whether or not something is "worthwhile." Instead, the question should be if it's absolutely necessary. His economic proposal is not as drastic as you're making it out to be. No cuts to social security or medicare, and decreasing defense only to 2006 levels. People are fed up enough that I could see something like this actually passing Congress.

Cutting the budget does not "erase" wealth from the economy. The government doesn't have any money which was not orginally taken from the economy though taxation, borrowing, or the "printing" (devaluation) of money. It doesn't create wealth, only redistributes it.

Shotsie

Radical budget cuts like that mean massive lay-offs for government workers, which means higher unemployment rates, which means less money flowing through the economy. Ron Paul would like to turn this recession into a depression based on his flawed ideaologies.


Aren't those the same credit rating agencies who gave a AAA rating to credit default swaps and CDOs? It's another lame attempt by wallstreet to bend the citizens of this country to their will and it's disgusting. Fuck those credit rating agencies.

Robbie

Dude that's my point...lol
If anybody has to struggle to "understand" any political "theory" then it's not practical.

If a million people considered themselves to all be Libertarians...and one guy (like you for instance) tells them "no, you're not following libertarian theory"...
Then WHO is right?

LOL! I'm gonna go with the 1 million practicing "Libertarians" over the one guy talking "theory" everyday of the week.

You know what I'm saying. A political philosophy is only what people make of it. And Ron Paul is as close to what myself and millions of others believe to be Libertarian as we are going to see in this political season.

To ME...a Libertarian is someone who believes in freedom from govt. interference.

I don't believe the govt. has any rights to tell you what you can do with your own body for instance (drug use, etc.)
I don't believe the govt. has any rights to take my property or to tax me and give it to foreign countries in the form of foreign aid.
I don't believe the govt. has any rights to take my money and give it to poor people.

Those are just my thoughts. Nothing more. Arguments can be made against everything I said there. Good arguments. But bottom line is... i believe in individual FREEDOM.
And that's why I tend to think of myself as somewhat Libertarian...even if it doesn't fit a pre-conceived "theory" of Libertarianism.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

sambucas

I'm no American so I might not be eligible to comment, but maybe an outsider's comment is something that can point out some alternative thoughts. I think that you guys are focusing on small things in Ron Paul's policies. Yes, I think that abortion is a small thing, as well as marijuana legalization and other Ron Paul's points comparing to the big things such as wars that are bankrupting Americans and awful economic policy. These are the 2 main things that only Ron Paul amongst other candidates is addressing. If you can sort these two things out you can then debate wether or not to allow abortions and legalize marijuana and so on.

AtlantisCash

i have to say even some of the people who called themselfs to have Libertarian views sound kinda miss guided here.

1. as a person with Libertarian values i don't oppose world is globalizing, nations are closely started to know eachother , communication and information technologies are improving, this is not against Libertarian ideas but actually we're siding by it, because we support free trade and stuff.

2. i believe Bill8's statemen has made with good intention but his post is missing so many points.



Even though this earth had so many problems and political bullshit to overcome, we actually kinda going twoards Libertarianism and this wont be just in the hand of political parties but with technology and economy.

Some people here and commen have to learn that wellfare state has no place to live anymore, if anyone still saying otherwise and believing is misssleading Him/Herself or other people as welll, welfare state is going bye bye, people need to learn acting smarther, sorry to say this but if You have too mutch trust for government, don't cry when social state logic is completely gone or in an imurgency situation.

let me explain how we're going twoards Libertarianism and how actually we base our arguements to real events.

legitimet government: there is no legitimet government, as a humanity our needs and social evolution will clerify when the abolish state mechanism completely, but at first we have to reduce it's roll on individual's life, so firstly we should pull it the minarchy level.

how this will happen?

a. governments will have to compete due to globalism because pressed ones easyly can move somewhere else and and when governments lose well educated and rich ones, it's not good for them.

B. flexibility on economics, going twoards free market, reducing taxation,
more acception of gay and lesbian couples, a bit more flexible drug policy, privatization, alternative marriage contracts,destroying teocracies/dictatorships and and greatest invention of this age (internet),it's already happenning.

C. unlike some old fassion brains think police kinda privatized already, subdevisions/sub cities, Universities, companies have their own security staff, private security companies already handking this which You can see as biggining of a reality.

D. oil based economic and Nation states are collapsing, so this all kinda showing us that we need of a Livertarian understanding.


i also should mention that Robbie summed it up very well why we have Libertarian views on things

__________________
Kız telefonları
|
Telefonda seks sohbet

Bill8

I already said that libertarian's cant govern - in part because it's a very demanding system that requires a smart well educated populace.

But, if millions of people think they are libertarian, but they are wrong, as any quick study of libertarianism will show them, that's an indicator of how stupid we have become as a nation, not a commentary on the original libertarian ideas.

We have allowed ourselves to distort - and allow the media and media owners to distort - the meaning of words, and to use language to deceive instead of to inform.

That's why libertarians can't govern - beause people WON'T be responsible for themselves, because they won't educate themselves, and because they passively allow others to distort their language and make them dumber than they have to be.

It's a shame too because actual libertarian theory and ideas are halfway interesting.

It doesn't matter really, arguably you are right, the people who are calling plutocratic republicanism "libertarian" do control the popular mind, so what we will get is this bastardized mutation that people call 'libertarian' but which is the exact opposite of the origianl 'classic' libertarianism and it's modern variants.

Shotsie

I don't think there's enough Ron Paul threads on the front page.