Sorry and we want to pay everyone back!!! - GoFuckYourself.com

Midwest Shane · 01-19-2012, 12:06 PM

First off I am sorry that I shut down our affiliate program! Some new business ventures well they failed and the sites were not making a lot of money so there was no money to pay anyone. I guess in the end things didn't go as planned as they sometimes do for us this was the first and it hit hard. We of course panicked and this was wrong! We are still not making a lot of money but we have decided the right thing to do is to pay everyone back. This will take some time of course so please be patient everyone will get there money. We are starting with our top affiliates and moving down the line. Freeones will be paid first as they were our top affilaite and we will move down the line from there. We will pay past owed money first and then figure out your rebills that you can't see since we shut down the program after everyone is paid. I hope some of you will decide to promote us again after you are paid but if not we do understand.

Thanks, Shane and Melissa

MelissaMidwest.com
MelTech, INC.

st0ned · 01-19-2012, 12:07 PM

Sig spot?

I was honestly shocked at the way you guys just closed up shop on us, announcing there would be no further payouts.

Will this mean that all recurring members have remained attached to the affiliate who originally sent them?

I guess it is somewhat honorable to come back and try to pay the owed funds, but one can only assume that is due to you guys having FURTHER financial issues after screwing over your affiliates.

Konda · 01-19-2012, 12:11 PM

Hmmmm ok

MaDalton · 01-19-2012, 12:11 PM

that would be a first

L-Pink · 01-19-2012, 12:16 PM

So you took affiliate money that wasn't yours and opened other businesses that failed. Next time try investing your own money instead. I hope no one gives you another chance.

st0ned · 01-19-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

So you took affiliate money that wasn't yours and opened other businesses that failed. Next time try investing your own money instead. I hope no one gives you another chance.

I sure as hell wont be sending another hit to their program.

scouser · 01-19-2012, 12:19 PM

lol fail

Spunky · 01-19-2012, 12:20 PM

That's a great gesture,most take the money and run these days

Just Alex · 01-19-2012, 12:21 PM

Are you saying Fieldhouse project never paid off?

Scott McD · 01-19-2012, 12:21 PM

96ukssob · 01-19-2012, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

So you took affiliate money that wasn't yours and opened other businesses that failed. Next time try investing your own money instead. I hope no one gives you another chance.

LMFAO! way to come out and dig yourself into a deeper hole... idiots

Any brains left in this industry?

This is why I do not trust programs and only use CCBill affiliates sites

$cout · 01-19-2012, 12:23 PM

nothing to say, just WoW

blofer80 · 01-19-2012, 12:23 PM

nice, good late then ever

Midwest Shane · 01-19-2012, 12:23 PM

We understand and you should be upset we would be the same way and like we said if you don't send another hit you will still get paid! Yes after everyone is paid the past do we will go back and pay rebills as well. Thanks

OneHungLo · 01-19-2012, 12:25 PM

This should be a good thread.

Sly · 01-19-2012, 12:25 PM

When you are using the new revenues to pay the old affiliates, what will you be paying the new affiliates with? It seems like a fair question based on your explanation of events.

Nikki_Licks · 01-19-2012, 12:25 PM

If your new venture didn't fail, would the outcome of deciding to pay your affiliates be the same as it is now. I hardly think so.

I think clearing the air with the affiliates you did not pay is a good thing, but the fact that you admitted your other venture failed and this is why you want to clear the air and pay everyone back so you can open shop once more, is almost laughable.

Spunky · 01-19-2012, 12:25 PM

A pic of your bum and all will be forgiven

CDSmith · 01-19-2012, 12:26 PM

So, you're reopening your program?

Quote:

the sites were not making a lot of money so there was no money to pay anyone.

I've never understood this. Other program owners have said it too. Fact is for every affiliate sale the site gets, a % of the proceeds belongs to the affiliate. The rest is overhead and profit. So if the site is/was seeing sales (and rebills) there should ALWAYS be money to pay affiliates. The only time there isn't money to pay affiliates is when the owner or owners decide to spend or otherwise dip into money that isn't theirs.

Bravo for deciding to do the right thing though.

Midwest Shane · 01-19-2012, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossku69

LMFAO! way to come out and dig yourself into a deeper hole... idiots

Any brains left in this industry?

This is why I do not trust programs and only use CCBill affiliates sites

No it was another adult venture that we thought would help a declining business but we were taken to the cleaners. We understand this was not your fault and we should pay. It was our mistake not yours! We are not here to make excuses we messed up and you will get paid. We are very sorry!!!

Verbal · 01-19-2012, 12:27 PM

So what's the new venture you'll be promoting once you 'restore' your credibility?

beerptrol · 01-19-2012, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbal

So what's the new venture you'll be promoting once you 'restore' your credibility?

YesSignals

Panky · 01-19-2012, 12:30 PM

So... you used affiliate money to fund other business ventures that failed...

Then you're going to re-open the affiliate program and hope that people promote you again. If they decide not to, you'll understand?

What kind of screwed up logic is that? Even if you eventually make good on the money that is owed, that doesn't necessarily mean affiliate money isn't going to be used to pay bills or fund other projects first and the cycle repeats itself.

It's not like you are that unique and special that it's hard to find content to replace yours.

qwe · 01-19-2012, 12:33 PM

site was not making much is complete bullshit.... I send pps traffic to some company for just 1 year, after I stopped I still made 40g's next year doing nothing from recurring sales, and your site was up for how many years? not to mention your program is revshare, it's impossible to loose money

campimp · 01-19-2012, 12:33 PM

at least the money is in motion

grumpy · 01-19-2012, 12:33 PM

what a load of crap

L-Pink · 01-19-2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

When you are using the new revenues to pay the old affiliates, what will you be paying the new affiliates with? It seems like a fair question based on your explanation of events.

I smell Bernie Madoff accounting ......

.

newB · 01-19-2012, 12:34 PM

I'm sure freeones getting paid first has absolutely nothing to do with being featured on their hall of shame.

Good luck on the damage control.

Just Alex · 01-19-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotMelissa

No it was another adult venture that we thought would help a declining business but we were taken to the cleaners. We understand this was not your fault and we should pay. It was our mistake not yours! We are not here to make excuses we messed up and you will get paid. We are very sorry!!!

Why didn't you use your own money?

Far-L · 01-19-2012, 12:40 PM

If you are willing to support us in return then we will put you up in our member's area "neighbors" section and give you a shot. I was always a fan of your site and know it would do well with our members.

Hit my email or skype up if you have any questions.

mailman · 01-19-2012, 12:41 PM

WarChild · 01-19-2012, 12:44 PM

Translation: We thought we'd make enough off your rebills to keep us afloat for awhile but we were wrong. Please send us more sales we can rip you off on!

signupdamnit · 01-19-2012, 12:44 PM

You're mostly doing the right thing by paying it all back so I give you credit for that. I don't know about starting with Freeones. Sure they may have sent you the most but the little guys deserve their money just as much as Freeones. Many of them are struggling just like you. It would be more fair if you set up a payment schedule across the board like 5-10% of all back balances each month until paid off.

In my opinion you might want to set up a CCBill program if you are serious about this given what happened a few months back. Otherwise some affiliates will think twice.

PR_Glen · 01-19-2012, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossku69

This is why I do not trust programs and only use CCBill affiliates sites

i'm pretty tired of this regurgitation around here... there are plenty of programs still around that not only pay their webmasters, but have been doing so for years.

thinking small.

Midwest Shane · 01-19-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe

site was not making much is complete bullshit.... I send pps traffic to some company for just 1 year, after I stopped I still made 40g's next year doing nothing from recurring sales, and your site was up for how many years? not to mention your program is revshare, it's impossible to loose money

We made a lot of money in the early years but then traffic slowed a lot and rebills slowed even more and lastly the fraud that took place over the last couple years with stolen credit cards and bad affiliates you wouldn't even believe. We again agree this was not the GOOD affiliates fault and we should pay so we will. We understand if you never send again nor are we saying you have to. You will be paid in order no matter what you do!

Failed · 01-19-2012, 12:49 PM

Affiliates are needed after all? Who would of thought?

Tom_PM · 01-19-2012, 12:50 PM

It's hard to say you're sorry and try to make amends. I never promoted it, and not sure I would again if I had before, but I still think a little credit is due for the initial sorry.

L-Pink · 01-19-2012, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

You're mostly doing the right thing by paying it all back so

Doing the right thing is never the motivation behind people like this. Trying to salvage any assets they have remaining is their only agenda. This is just another desperation move not to be confused with "doing the right thing" ...

.

Midwest Shane · 01-19-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Doing the right thing is never the motivation behind people like this. Trying to salvage any assets they have remaining is their only agenda. This is just another desperation move not to be confused with "doing the right thing" ...

.

I have not paid my house payment in almost 4 months and am taking the money I would use for that to pay back affiliates. I am doing what's right so everyone I owe money to doesn't end up in my situation so now you know but thanks!

Failed · 01-19-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

You're mostly doing the right thing by paying it all back so I give you credit for that. I don't know about starting with Freeones. Sure they may have sent you the most but the little guys deserve their money just as much as Freeones. Many of them are struggling just like you. It would be more fair if you set up a payment schedule across the board like 5-10% of all back balances each month until paid off.

In my opinion you might want to set up a CCBill program if you are serious about this given what happened a few months back. Otherwise some affiliates will think twice.

Come on dude, even with CCBill, are you really going to promote them again? Especially after that sponsor scolding you gave me about VS ;)

signupdamnit · 01-19-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Glen

i'm pretty tired of this regurgitation around here... there are plenty of programs still around that not only pay their webmasters, but have been doing so for years.

thinking small.

That's true but you know this is what happens when a culture starts to emerge where it's almost considered acceptable and expected to fuck your affiliates - affiliates then start protecting themselves. If you want to stop it then the next time a program decides not to pay at least jump in and show a little support for the affiliates wanting their hard earned money. It also makes you look a little more trustworthy yourself.

I remember posting on that debacle of a thread where the non payment was first announced and I recall many people trying to brush it off as if it was perfectly acceptable and that everyone should just roll over and take it. I never lost a dime but it disgusted me to see it.

Midwest Shane · 01-19-2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotMelissa

We made a lot of money in the early years but then traffic slowed a lot and rebills slowed even more and lastly the fraud that took place over the last couple years with stolen credit cards and bad affiliates you wouldn't even believe. We again agree this was not the GOOD affiliates fault and we should pay so we will. We understand if you never send again nor are we saying you have to. You will be paid in order no matter what you do!

It's for sale if you want it, I mean if you can do so well with it please please do!

Mutt · 01-19-2012, 12:59 PM

i think it takes some balls to own up to your mistakes, especially on GFY, tho I'm sure if Melissa wasn't so cute and spunky I might not have the same attitude.

is Melissa going to shoot new content or her site will rotate what's already been shot?

Failed · 01-19-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

That's true but you know this is what happens when a culture starts to emerge where it's almost considered acceptable and expected to fuck your affiliates - affiliates then start protecting themselves. If you want to stop it then the next time a program decides not to pay at least jump in and show a little support for the affiliates wanting their hard earned money. It also makes you look a little more trustworthy yourself.

I remember posting on that debacle of a thread where the non payment was first announced and I recall many people trying to brush it off as if it was perfectly acceptable and that everyone should just roll over and take it. I never lost a dime but it disgusted me to see it.

https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1041...=Melissa+Money

96ukssob · 01-19-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR_Glen

i'm pretty tired of this regurgitation around here... there are plenty of programs still around that not only pay their webmasters, but have been doing so for years.

thinking small.

For every good one, there are 20 bad. larger programs like yourselves shouldn't be a question, but when you come across a solo girl site or program with 5 shitty sites, they are doomed not to pay sooner or later.

I will restate my comment...

Quote:

This is why I do not trust smaller programs and only use CCBill affiliates sites or huge sponsors that have been around for 5+ years

Sly · 01-19-2012, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signupdamnit

That's true but you know this is what happens when a culture starts to emerge where it's almost considered acceptable and expected to fuck your affiliates - affiliates then start protecting themselves. If you want to stop it then the next time a program decides not to pay at least jump in and show a little support for the affiliates wanting their hard earned money. It also makes you look a little more trustworthy yourself.

I remember posting on that debacle of a thread where the non payment was first announced and I recall many people trying to brush it off as if it was perfectly acceptable and that everyone should just roll over and take it. I never lost a dime but it disgusted me to see it.

Few thought it was "acceptable" but acknowledged that there was a risk. There is a risk with any decision you make in business. I've seen many CCBill programs fold. Sure, the affiliate will not lose whatever money is owed, but they still lose out on all of their time and money invested on promotions.

BIGTYMER · 01-19-2012, 01:02 PM

Classic.

L-Pink · 01-19-2012, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotMelissa

I have not paid my house payment in almost 4 months and am taking the money I would use for that to pay back affiliates. I am doing what's right so everyone I owe money to doesn't end up in my situation so now you know but thanks!

So you are asking affiliates to generate money for a company that not only ripped them off but now has to overcome large amounts of corp as well as personal debt of it's owners. You guys are a disaster waiting to happen.

Matter of time until it happens again. If I could short you guys I would

.

Shotsie · 01-19-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotMelissa

I have not paid my house payment in almost 4 months and am taking the money I would use for that to pay back affiliates. I am doing what's right so everyone I owe money to doesn't end up in my situation so now you know but thanks!

Jesus wept.

96ukssob · 01-19-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotMelissa

No it was another adult venture that we thought would help a declining business but we were taken to the cleaners. We understand this was not your fault and we should pay. It was our mistake not yours! We are not here to make excuses we messed up and you will get paid. We are very sorry!!!

What your saying doesnt make sense... If you are to pay affiliates based on revenues, you MUST have net revenue/profits, otherwise an affiliate model would never make sense. Thats like selling a prodcut for $30 where you only make $5 but offer $10 to someone to sell it... your doomed for failure.

Being adult content, you are selling virtual goods so your profits are near 75-90%. Therefore, money that was not rightfully yours in the first place was spent. You are not a bank nor the government, so what you did is called THEFT. Unless you have a lending institution, your comments above don't make sense.

Regardless of you paying out of your pocket or not making your mortgage is not our problem, its yours for shitty accounting and spending money that is not yours in the first place. Im so tired of seeing people try to justify their stupidity these days.

+1 on making an attempt to repay people back, hope that makes it easier to sleep at night but again, just another reason why this industry is turning to shit and hard to trust anyone these days

01-19-2012, 12:06 PM	#1
Midwest Shane ValMidwest rocks Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 1,202	Sorry and we want to pay everyone back!!! First off I am sorry that I shut down our affiliate program! Some new business ventures well they failed and the sites were not making a lot of money so there was no money to pay anyone. I guess in the end things didn't go as planned as they sometimes do for us this was the first and it hit hard. We of course panicked and this was wrong! We are still not making a lot of money but we have decided the right thing to do is to pay everyone back. This will take some time of course so please be patient everyone will get there money. We are starting with our top affiliates and moving down the line. Freeones will be paid first as they were our top affilaite and we will move down the line from there. We will pay past owed money first and then figure out your rebills that you can't see since we shut down the program after everyone is paid. I hope some of you will decide to promote us again after you are paid but if not we do understand. Thanks, Shane and Melissa MelissaMidwest.com MelTech, INC. __________________ ValMidWest.com MelissaMidwest.com FoxyJacky.com SweetAdri.com

01-19-2012, 12:07 PM	#2
st0ned Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 8,437	Sig spot? I was honestly shocked at the way you guys just closed up shop on us, announcing there would be no further payouts. Will this mean that all recurring members have remained attached to the affiliate who originally sent them? I guess it is somewhat honorable to come back and try to pay the owed funds, but one can only assume that is due to you guys having FURTHER financial issues after screwing over your affiliates. __________________ Conversion Sharks - 1,000+ adult dating offers, traffic management, and consistently high payouts. We will guarantee and beat your current EPC to win your dating traffic! Skype: ConversionSharks \|\| Email: info /@/ conversionsharks.com Last edited by st0ned; 01-19-2012 at 12:09 PM..

01-19-2012, 12:11 PM	#4
MaDalton I am Amazing Content! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 39,826	that would be a first __________________ AmazingContent.com - providing only the best content and service since 2003 Monetize your content on Veegaz.com - one of Germanies largest VOD sites Got German traffic? We convert it into money for you! Skype: madalton02826 - Email: oltecconsult [at] gmail [dot] com

01-19-2012, 12:20 PM	#8
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,919	That's a great gesture,most take the money and run these days __________________ *Skype : Spunky GFY*

01-19-2012, 12:21 PM	#9
Just Alex Liv Benson to You, Bitch Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Maryland and WV Posts: 6,060	Are you saying Fieldhouse project never paid off? __________________

01-19-2012, 12:11 PM	#3
Konda ... Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,280	Hmmmm ok

01-19-2012, 12:16 PM	#5
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,152	So you took affiliate money that wasn't yours and opened other businesses that failed. Next time try investing your own money instead. I hope no one gives you another chance.

01-19-2012, 12:19 PM	#7
scouser marketer. Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: bcn Posts: 2,280	lol fail

01-19-2012, 12:21 PM	#10
Scott McD Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 67,795	__________________ I Buy My High Quality Traffic Here, You Should Too!

01-19-2012, 12:23 PM	#12
$cout Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 79	nothing to say, just WoW

01-19-2012, 12:23 PM	#13
blofer80 Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 932	nice, good late then ever

01-19-2012, 12:25 PM	#15
OneHungLo So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: Your mom's front hole Posts: 40,910	This should be a good thread.

01-19-2012, 12:25 PM	#16
Sly Let's do some business! Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 31,289	When you are using the new revenues to pay the old affiliates, what will you be paying the new affiliates with? It seems like a fair question based on your explanation of events. __________________ Vacares - Web Hosting, Domains, O365, Security & More - Paxum and BTC Accepted Wanted: CCBill pay sites for sale

01-19-2012, 12:25 PM	#17
Nikki_Licks Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Behind The Lens Posts: 6,323	If your new venture didn't fail, would the outcome of deciding to pay your affiliates be the same as it is now. I hardly think so. I think clearing the air with the affiliates you did not pay is a good thing, but the fact that you admitted your other venture failed and this is why you want to clear the air and pay everyone back so you can open shop once more, is almost laughable. __________________ Amateur Content ICQ: 292 356 077

01-19-2012, 12:27 PM	#21
Verbal Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,420	So what's the new venture you'll be promoting once you 'restore' your credibility?

01-19-2012, 12:30 PM	#23
Panky Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 269	So... you used affiliate money to fund other business ventures that failed... Then you're going to re-open the affiliate program and hope that people promote you again. If they decide not to, you'll understand? What kind of screwed up logic is that? Even if you eventually make good on the money that is owed, that doesn't necessarily mean affiliate money isn't going to be used to pay bills or fund other projects first and the cycle repeats itself. It's not like you are that unique and special that it's hard to find content to replace yours.

01-19-2012, 12:33 PM	#24
qwe Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,109	site was not making much is complete bullshit.... I send pps traffic to some company for just 1 year, after I stopped I still made 40g's next year doing nothing from recurring sales, and your site was up for how many years? not to mention your program is revshare, it's impossible to loose money

01-19-2012, 12:33 PM	#25
campimp Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Gamehendge Posts: 1,336	at least the money is in motion

01-19-2012, 12:33 PM	#26
grumpy Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 9,870	what a load of crap __________________ Don't let greediness blur your vision \| You gotta let some shit slide icq - 441-456-888

01-19-2012, 12:34 PM	#28
newB Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere between reality and total ape-shit bonkers. Posts: 2,870	I'm sure freeones getting paid first has absolutely nothing to do with being featured on their hall of shame. Good luck on the damage control. __________________ The best Adult Affiliate Programs reviewed and indexed by niche and feature. Easily find the sponsors that suit your needs.

01-19-2012, 12:40 PM	#30
Far-L Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,075	Homegrown and Melissa Midwest If you are willing to support us in return then we will put you up in our member's area "neighbors" section and give you a shot. I was always a fan of your site and know it would do well with our members. Hit my email or skype up if you have any questions. __________________ HomegrownCash.com, the affiliate program of Homegrown Video - The Largest Collection of Amateur XXX - Est. 1982. Contact - Email: farrell AT homegrownvideo D com Skype: hgfarl Newsweek Magazine - "Homegrown Video, the longest running series in the history of porn."

01-19-2012, 12:41 PM	#31
mailman Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 6,311

01-19-2012, 12:44 PM	#32
WarChild Let slip the dogs of war. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bermuda Posts: 17,263	Translation: We thought we'd make enough off your rebills to keep us afloat for awhile but we were wrong. Please send us more sales we can rip you off on! __________________ .

01-19-2012, 12:44 PM	#33
signupdamnit Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,697	You're mostly doing the right thing by paying it all back so I give you credit for that. I don't know about starting with Freeones. Sure they may have sent you the most but the little guys deserve their money just as much as Freeones. Many of them are struggling just like you. It would be more fair if you set up a payment schedule across the board like 5-10% of all back balances each month until paid off. In my opinion you might want to set up a CCBill program if you are serious about this given what happened a few months back. Otherwise some affiliates will think twice.

01-19-2012, 12:49 PM	#36
Failed Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,301	Affiliates are needed after all? Who would of thought?

01-19-2012, 12:50 PM	#37
Tom_PM Porn Meister Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16,443	It's hard to say you're sorry and try to make amends. I never promoted it, and not sure I would again if I had before, but I still think a little credit is due for the initial sorry. __________________ 43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.

01-19-2012, 12:59 PM	#43
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	i think it takes some balls to own up to your mistakes, especially on GFY, tho I'm sure if Melissa wasn't so cute and spunky I might not have the same attitude. is Melissa going to shoot new content or her site will rotate what's already been shot? __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

01-19-2012, 01:02 PM	#47
BIGTYMER Junior Achiever Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walled Garden Posts: 17,066	Classic.