Business Here's what the tax code would look like if Bernie Sanders got everything he wanted - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

dyna mo · 01-24-2016, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

I don't think that is the right question... I think it should be established if it's even desirable to have tax payers pay for higher ed of others in the first place... and I'm far from convinced that it actually would be a good idea...

what's so desirable about forcing one person to pay for higher education of someone else? what's wrong with paying for your own higher ed?

How do you feel about government getting involved in "venture capital" type of activities? Someone wants to start a business, should government be involved in funding companies? After all, if they succeed we will all benefit?

How is getting higher ed different from starting a business? you are proposing funding a student for many 10s of thousands of $$... would you be as open to fund anyone that wants to start a business for similar amounts?

My point is about your comment that socialism = big government. not the efficacy of any one social program.

again, America has a long and rich history of embracing social programs, they are woven into the fabric of the USA. A social program does not necessarily require huge/bloated bureaucracies to administer.

i'm not the guy championing social security here, i used it as an example of the USA embracing big social programs

i'm not the guy championing free higher ed here, i used it as en example of how a social program wouldn't neccesarily require an accompanying big bureacracy.

i'm not a socialist. I specifically cited what i like most about Bernie and that's his promise to reform campaign finance and his view of ISIS/foreign policy.

dyna mo · 01-24-2016, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

Exactly! A bachelor's degree is hardly worth the parchment its printed on. Now imagine the worth of it when they start giving them away for free. Companies these days won't even schedule an interview unless you have a Masters.

a bachelor's degree is worth more than a high school diploma.

free higher ed means free access, to achieve the diploma, the work still needs to get done above a passing grade.

they aren't giving away diplomas for free. getting in is free, getting out requires work.

woj · 01-24-2016, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna mo

My point is about your comment that socialism = big government. not the efficacy of any one social program.

again, my point is thus: America has a long and rich history of embracing social programs, they are woven into the fabric of the USA. A social program does not necessarily require huge/bloated bureaucracies to administer.

i'm not the guy championing social security here, i used it as an example of the USA embracing big social programs

i'm not the guy championing free higher ed here, i used it as en example of how a social program wouldn't neccesarily require an accompanying big bureacracy.

i'm not a socialist. I specifically cited what i like most about Bernie and that's his promise to reform campaign finance and his view of ISIS/foreign policy.

where do you think one should draw the line? 50%? 75%? or do you think there is no point where it gets excessive?

dyna mo · 01-24-2016, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

where do you think one should draw the line? 50%? 75%? or do you think there is no point where it gets excessive?

you entirely missed the point again.

you think HIllary's gonna do something about that?

you think Trump is gonna do something about that?

ted cruz?

martin omalley?

why the fuck are you asking me that? again, i'm not here defending bernie or socialism. i simply stated why i like Bernie and the fact America has gobs and gobs of social programs and has a rich history of that.

neither of which even slightly suggest i think i'm the guy to explain when US government spending as a % of GDP is excessive.

what the fuck.

Robbie · 01-24-2016, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

So I could have landed in the US before my 65th birthday and claimed a pension?

Can you explain how someone can suddenly get Social Security and Medicare without being part of the system?

Paul why do you constantly post the most goddamned STUPID shit?

I said that in the beginning...in the 1935...Social Security started. But benefits were IMMEDIATELY paid to people over 65. Obviously they had NEVER paid in to the system at that point.

So people working in 1935 were already paying for people to retire who didn't have one penny in the system

You act so fucking DUMB in these conversations.

My whole point was that Social Security started out in debt and has stayed that way ever since. It was and is a big LIE that you are paying into your own personal retirement fund.

You are so useless in these threads because you don't even understand the words I am typing.

arock10 · 01-24-2016, 10:12 AM

We should really bring back the policies of the 1800s, those were simplier times. If everyone just died at 55 we wouldn't have to worry about social security!

Robbie · 01-24-2016, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

We should really bring back the policies of the 1800s, those were simplier times. If everyone just died at 55 we wouldn't have to worry about social security!

There were no social "policies" in the 1800's. Or the 1900's up until 1935.

The govt. was never meant to be involved in those things. Our society decided to get the govt. involved as a means to better people's lives when the great depression hit.
Older people got along just fine before that. Families took care of their parents when they retired back in those times.
The great depression hit so hard that nobody could take care of themselves.

Social Security was a way to make sure that never happened again. As I said...it was sold to the people as the govt. taking YOUR money and paying it out to YOU in retirement.

And that's a lie. It's nothing more now than just another tax... and welfare for anyone over 65.

arock10 · 01-24-2016, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

There were no social "policies" in the 1800's. Or the 1900's up until 1935.

The govt. was never meant to be involved in those things. Our society decided to get the govt. involved as a means to better people's lives when the great depression hit.
Older people got along just fine before that. Families took care of their parents when they retired back in those times.
The great depression hit so hard that nobody could take care of themselves.

Social Security was a way to make sure that never happened again. As I said...it was sold to the people as the govt. taking YOUR money and paying it out to YOU in retirement.

And that's a lie. It's nothing more now than just another tax... and welfare for anyone over 65.

I agree, with all that slavery and child labor, really can't beat those times. Now if only we can get rid of these pesky vaccines and modern medicine. At the very least we can stop washing our hands

Robbie · 01-24-2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

I agree, with all that slavery and child labor, really can't beat those times. Now if only we can get rid of these pesky vaccines and modern medicine. At the very least we can stop washing our hands

Huh? Slavery was abolished in the 1860's. And were people owning slaves in New York City back in those days anyway? Nope.

I wasn't referring to slavery times. I was more referring to when the govt. stepped in during the Great Depression in the 1930's.

You seem to be more interested in attacking and less interested in discussion.

Social Security was a big turning point in our country. Paved the way for the federal govt. to grow bigger than it ever was intended to.

And it was something that arguably needed to happen....81 years ago.

You seem to be defending old ideas and solutions while at the same time attacking old ideas and solutions that don't fit your narrative.

What we need are NEW ideas and solutions. Social Security was an idea from 81 years ago that was flawed at the outset...but seemed to be the best thing to do at the time.

Where are the new ideas and solutions that will be viable for today?

arock10 · 01-24-2016, 10:52 AM

Ok so what's the plan when automation (self driving cars etc) puts a giant chunk of the work force out of work. Sorry man, government is going to have to keep stepping in and continually try to work against market forces to keep the country stable.

Personally I love the idea of free college educations. With Internet classes these absurd costs cause be slashed to pieces. A more educated workforce is good for the country, I like my customers with jobs and money so they can keep buying from me

The Porn Nerd · 01-24-2016, 11:09 AM

The debate comes down to this:

Do you want a society where everyone fends for themselves (fuck everyone else) or do you want to live in a society with a social safety net so we don't see seniors, the handicapped and the mentally ill living on the streets?

For those who advocate RICH RICH RICH and fuck everyone else take a look at history. That doesn't work. Neither does Communism (everyone owns everything/nothing). We need a BALANCE of the two extremes; a social safety net that also provides incentive to those who can get off the dole. For those who cannot work (the handicap, the elderly) tough titties. We pay for them in a civilized society. Deal with it or move to Russia. LOL

Rob · 01-24-2016, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arock10

Ok so what's the plan when automation (self driving cars etc) puts a giant chunk of the work force out of work. Sorry man, government is going to have to keep stepping in and continually try to work against market forces to keep the country stable.

And what happens when robots become self aware and launch attacks against humans? You're talking hypothetical, nothing substantial. I'm sure a bunch of workers freaked out and screamed that the sky was falling during the industrial revolution when steam power and assembly lines replaced a lot of workers. But instead, the workers adapted and a new, innovative worker was born. Then during the computer age, a lot of human jobs were replaced by computers. The same phenomenon occurred; the worker adapted, and once again, a new and more innovative worker was born. Could you imagine if any of those technological advances were held back because people were worried about workers losing their jobs? Or worse, intrusive government involvement?

Surprise, surprise, none of that stopped them, and most of this all happened with limited government involvement. The adaptability and resilience of workers only creates a stronger workforce. All without government involvement or influence, actually, in spite of it.

Rob · 01-24-2016, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

The debate comes down to this:

Do you want a society where everyone fends for themselves (fuck everyone else) or do you want to live in a society with a social safety net so we don't see seniors, the handicapped and the mentally ill living on the streets?

For those who advocate RICH RICH RICH and fuck everyone else take a look at history. That doesn't work. Neither does Communism (everyone owns everything/nothing). We need a BALANCE of the two extremes; a social safety net that also provides incentive to those who can get off the dole. For those who cannot work (the handicap, the elderly) tough titties. We pay for them in a civilized society. Deal with it or move to Russia. LOL

I don't believe that's accurate at all. I have no problem helping seniors, the handicapped, the mentally ill, homeless, or children in need. I'll gladly do my part to help. And I believe this statement is exactly what's wrong with the entire political landscape. It's either you're for helping EVERYONE or you're all about FUCKING EVERYONE therefore an advocate for the rich. It's all black and white, no gray area. And that's doing nothing but polarizing the sides. Things are not absolute, and they shouldn't be defined as such.

Why can't I be for the little guy? Help seniors, single moms, and mentally ill, but be against moochers and leeches of society? If someone is able bodied but flat out refuses to work because they're lazy, why should I be responsible for them? Why should I wake up at 6am and be responsible for someone who isn't? For those who lack the ability to take care of themselves, it's our responsibility to assist them. But laziness is not a lack of ability, it's a self inflicted ailment with handouts only enabling said sickness.

I lean more right, I'm a registered Republican, but I am pro-choice. I'm pro-marijuana legalization. I'm for gay rights, and think homosexuals should be able to get married. I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination. But if I were to go into a room and state, "I'm a Republican", people would automatically assume none of this was true. That's because there is no in-between. Either you're all in, or all out...and that's not a proper way to approach the issues we currently have in this country.

The Porn Nerd · 01-24-2016, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

I don't believe that's accurate at all. I have no problem helping seniors, the handicapped, the mentally ill, homeless, or children in need. I'll gladly do my part to help. And I believe this statement is exactly what's wrong with the entire political landscape. It's either you're for helping EVERYONE or you're all about FUCKING EVERYONE therefore an advocate for the rich. It's all black and white, no gray area. And that's doing nothing but polarizing the sides. Things are not absolute, and they shouldn't be defined as such.

Why can't I be for the little guy? Help seniors, single moms, and mentally ill, but be against moochers and leeches of society? If someone is able bodied but flat out refuses to work because they're lazy, why should I be responsible for them? Why should I wake up at 6am and be responsible for someone who isn't? For those who lack the ability to take care of themselves, it's our responsibility to assist them. But laziness is not a lack of ability, it's a self inflicted ailment with handouts only enabling said sickness.

I lean more right, I'm a registered Republican, but I am pro-choice. I'm pro-marijuana legalization. I'm for gay rights, and think homosexuals should be able to get married. I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination. But if I were to go into a room and state, "I'm a Republican", people would automatically assume none of this was true. That's because there is no in-between. Either you're all in, or all out...and that's not a proper way to approach the issues we currently have in this country.

Well maybe you missed the end part where I said we need a BALANCE between the two extremes. Help the elderly, handicapped, etc (as you said) but ALSO try and give incentives for those who DO have the ability to contribute to society and work but instead prefer to be lazy and taken care of.

So we are actualy in agreement here. LOL

Rob · 01-24-2016, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Well maybe you missed the end part where I said we need a BALANCE between the two extremes. Help the elderly, handicapped, etc (as you said) but ALSO try and give incentives for those who DO have the ability to contribute to society and work but instead prefer to be lazy and taken care of.

So we are actualy in agreement here. LOL

My bad, I actually did miss that part.

Robbie · 01-24-2016, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Well maybe you missed the end part where I said we need a BALANCE between the two extremes. Help the elderly, handicapped, etc (as you said) but ALSO try and give incentives for those who DO have the ability to contribute to society and work but instead prefer to be lazy and taken care of.

So we are actualy in agreement here. LOL

That's kind of what I said in an earlier post: There is a "sweet spot" between the 2 extremes. I think the govt. went too far in the wrong direction a few decades back and it's time for the pendulum to swing back somewhat.

A staggering 43% of the American workforce is unemployed.
46 million people are on foodstamps.
The national debt is heading for 20 TRILLION dollars.

The govt. is no longer just "helping" older people. It's trying to control far more than that. And the results are the same as always when the govt. gets involved too far.

xKingx · 01-24-2016, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

The debate comes down to this:

Do you want a society where everyone fends for themselves (fuck everyone else) or do you want to live in a society with a social safety net so we don't see seniors, the handicapped and the mentally ill living on the streets?

For those who advocate RICH RICH RICH and fuck everyone else take a look at history. That doesn't work. Neither does Communism (everyone owns everything/nothing). We need a BALANCE of the two extremes; a social safety net that also provides incentive to those who can get off the dole. For those who cannot work (the handicap, the elderly) tough titties. We pay for them in a civilized society. Deal with it or move to Russia. LOL

Best response in the whole thread. We need to be in the middle on this.

dyna mo · 01-24-2016, 12:48 PM

Bernie addresses the critiques of his plans this morning, a summary

Bernie Sanders brushes aside critiques of his economic policy ideas - The Washington Post

The Porn Nerd · 01-24-2016, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's kind of what I said in an earlier post: There is a "sweet spot" between the 2 extremes. I think the govt. went too far in the wrong direction a few decades back and it's time for the pendulum to swing back somewhat.

A staggering 43% of the American workforce is unemployed.
46 million people are on foodstamps.
The national debt is heading for 20 TRILLION dollars.

The govt. is no longer just "helping" older people. It's trying to control far more than that. And the results are the same as always when the govt. gets involved too far.

And I agree totally with your earlier post Robbie!

The problems with any kind of social support system are vast, especially in a nation of 300+ million people. Plus we have a history of immigration & assimilation that is also broken and feeding the problem. So any "fix" we could think of would have to incorporate ALL aspects of the broken American system. Meaning economics, racism, immigration, values, taxes, etc.

I wish someone could just flick a switch and make things all better.

tony286 · 01-24-2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's kind of what I said in an earlier post: There is a "sweet spot" between the 2 extremes. I think the govt. went too far in the wrong direction a few decades back and it's time for the pendulum to swing back somewhat.

A staggering 43% of the American workforce is unemployed.
46 million people are on foodstamps.
The national debt is heading for 20 TRILLION dollars.

The govt. is no longer just "helping" older people. It's trying to control far more than that. And the results are the same as always when the govt. gets involved too far.

Read the book rise of the robots and you will understand how you are being played. Nothing will change, less and less people are being needed. Automation is making the work force smaller and smaller. Google made 14 billion with 38,000 people , gm did that for over 800,000 people. And its going to get worse.

AmeliaG · 01-24-2016, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

Half the 18 year olds should be nowhere near a college - they enroll in programs acquiring knowledge that will only be useful shooting their mouths off on Internet forums, most don't even get an undergraduate degree, meanwhile they are now 20 and already in debt with college loans. Donald Trump promises that when he becomes President he will somehow force Apple to manufacture the iPhone and its other products in the USA - industry experts say even if Apple wanted to manufacture in the US they couldn't, a major reason why is the US doesn't have the number of skilled people qualified to do the job - our people are either overqualified/too expensive or underqualified to do the work required. Kids should be in tech/trade schools/community colleges after high school to get the skills to do those kind of jobs.

As for the kids who really are mature enough and have the motivation to go to school and get a degree, here's a list of hundreds of damn good universities in the US with tuition fees between $5-10K a year 2015 US State Colleges and University Tuition Costs Comparison Table - what's the fucking problem with that? There is no reason in the 4 months of summer vacation a kid can't make $5,000 - if the kid wants to live on campus or his own apartment, get a part-time job or Mom and Dad can help out or get a loan. Don't be looking at strangers for handouts, try doing it yourself with some help from those who brought you into this world. If I had my way I'd sterilize everybody over 12, white black and every other color in between, until they are self supporting human beings capable of supporting a child.

Anyway there's not a chance in hell Bernie Sanders will become President of the United States but 20 years from now most of his plan will have come to pass - the US was never the capitalist utopia conservatives like to harken back to, look at the income tax rates in the 1950's - the top marginal tax rate was as high as 90%. There were a ton of loopholes but even so the top tax rate was 50-60%. The US has been on a steady path of increasing socialism since the Great Depression, like the rest of the world's democracies. Reagan and Clinton let the bankers and the very rich get richer and richer without paying their fair share but socialism continued, the national debt is testament to that. As long as the US dollar remains the world's reserve currency I say just keep borrowing and printing money - who's coming to collect on it?

The US needs a flat tax with every loophole the richest and largest corporations and individuals use to avoid paying their fair share wiped out. Trump has railed many times against corporate tax inversions, he's railed against the medical insurance companies, would be very interesting to see if he came through on promises to do something about those.

Bernie would be a complete mess because he'd deliver on the higher taxes for everybody but he'd never be able to pull off most of his plan to pay for his promises while hurting small businesses, costing more jobs, putting more people on the public dole.

Trump isn't the ogre and moron he's playing in this campaign, if he were to get into the White House, he'd reveal himself to be what he really is - a New Yorker, more liberal than conservative, he'd appease the right who got him elected by being tough on immigration, supporting the 2nd Amendment to the hilt, and just good old fashioned American patriotism/jingoism.

Most of the colleges on that list would most likely not make a graduate employable and would not nurture high performing students. In addition, the useful degrees on that list cost much more for out of state. So how is that supposed to work for people who don't live in California, Ohio, Arizona, or Pennsylvania? (I'd add Texas as a good deal with a decent education too, although it is not on the list.) Those tuition figures don't cover living expenses either.

I'm not saying the Bernie plan is the solution. Partly, his plan to just refi existing student loans but give freebies to new students seems grossly unfair. While we all benefit from an educated populace, making people pay for other people's kids for another 4 or 7 or 10 years seems unreasonable.

I am saying that we should acknowledge that the student loan system and wildly inflated tuitions are a problem. And we should get our numbers right.

Robbie · 01-24-2016, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Read the book rise of the robots and you will understand how you are being played.

Tony, I'm not sure how I personally am being "played" by anyone. I don't blindly follow either of the 2 ruling party's.

As for automation taking jobs...what do you think I've been talking about in all of those threads where people are wanting the minimum wage raised to $15 for unskilled labor?

I've warned over and over that companies will simply automate. It will be even cheaper than paying those McDonald's grunt workers $1 an hour. Much less $15 an hour.

ITraffic · 01-24-2016, 09:24 PM

lol i seriously hope you don't believe the current drive towards automation and ai is because of a min wage increase avoidance.

if you do you truly have been brainwashed buy your propaganda system there.

Why Robots Mean Interest Rates Could Go Even Lower In The Future - Bloomberg Business

but don't worry as more and more of the population is made useless and extraneous over the next decade there will be plenty of political extremism for you to get behind as well.

Robbie · 01-24-2016, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITraffic

lol i seriously hope you don't believe the current drive towards automation and ai is because of a min wage increase avoidance.

if you do you truly have been brainwashed buy your propaganda system there.

Why Robots Mean Interest Rates Could Go Even Lower In The Future - Bloomberg Business

but don't worry as more and more of the population is made useless and extraneous over the next decade there will be plenty of political extremism for you to get behind as well.

Why would you even say I "believe" that?
Did you not read what I just wrote?

I think it's pretty clear that fast food restaurants COULD have automated a long time ago.
But I guarantee you they WILL automate if they are forced to pay unskilled labor $15 an hour.

I'm not "brainwashed" by anything or anyone. I'm telling you what I would do with my own business.
You would do the same exact thing. So take your snarky comments about being brainwashed and rethink what you say to me.

The Porn Nerd · 01-24-2016, 09:59 PM

I have to checkout and bag my own groceries now. What's the difference if I walk up to a McDonalds counter and push a few icons on a tablet screen? One cheeseburger, one milk shake, etc. Then it comes out at the end of the counter POOF. Like Star Trek's food replicater.

I am seriously shocked we do not have that yet with Burger King et al.

01-24-2016, 10:12 AM	#156
arock10 Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,218	We should really bring back the policies of the 1800s, those were simplier times. If everyone just died at 55 we wouldn't have to worry about social security! __________________ Sup

01-24-2016, 10:52 AM	#160
arock10 Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,218	Ok so what's the plan when automation (self driving cars etc) puts a giant chunk of the work force out of work. Sorry man, government is going to have to keep stepping in and continually try to work against market forces to keep the country stable. Personally I love the idea of free college educations. With Internet classes these absurd costs cause be slashed to pieces. A more educated workforce is good for the country, I like my customers with jobs and money so they can keep buying from me __________________ Sup

01-24-2016, 11:09 AM	#161
The Porn Nerd Living The Dream Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Inside a Monitor Posts: 19,496	The debate comes down to this: Do you want a society where everyone fends for themselves (fuck everyone else) or do you want to live in a society with a social safety net so we don't see seniors, the handicapped and the mentally ill living on the streets? For those who advocate RICH RICH RICH and fuck everyone else take a look at history. That doesn't work. Neither does Communism (everyone owns everything/nothing). We need a BALANCE of the two extremes; a social safety net that also provides incentive to those who can get off the dole. For those who cannot work (the handicap, the elderly) tough titties. We pay for them in a civilized society. Deal with it or move to Russia. LOL __________________ My Affiliate Programs: Porn Nerd Cash \| Porn Showcase \| Aggressive Gold Over 90 paysites to promote! Skype: peabodymedia

01-24-2016, 09:59 PM	#175
The Porn Nerd Living The Dream Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Inside a Monitor Posts: 19,496	I have to checkout and bag my own groceries now. What's the difference if I walk up to a McDonalds counter and push a few icons on a tablet screen? One cheeseburger, one milk shake, etc. Then it comes out at the end of the counter POOF. Like Star Trek's food replicater. I am seriously shocked we do not have that yet with Burger King et al. __________________ My Affiliate Programs: Porn Nerd Cash \| Porn Showcase \| Aggressive Gold Over 90 paysites to promote! Skype: peabodymedia

01-24-2016, 12:48 PM	#168
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 63,905	Bernie addresses the critiques of his plans this morning, a summary Bernie Sanders brushes aside critiques of his economic policy ideas - The Washington Post

01-24-2016, 09:24 PM	#173
ITraffic Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,726	lol i seriously hope you don't believe the current drive towards automation and ai is because of a min wage increase avoidance. if you do you truly have been brainwashed buy your propaganda system there. Why Robots Mean Interest Rates Could Go Even Lower In The Future - Bloomberg Business but don't worry as more and more of the population is made useless and extraneous over the next decade there will be plenty of political extremism for you to get behind as well.