Pornwolf

Honestly, if we take the whole bad example for the kids thing out of the equation I would be 100% for steroid use among pro atheletes.

I want to see linemen hit harder.

I want to see someone like Ray Lewis's head get knocked the fuck off when being tackled.

I want to see baseballs get hit out of the Yankee stadium everytime someone gets up to bat.

I want to see Marion Jones run faster than Smarty Jones.

I want to see bodybuilders come in at 5' 9" and 400 pounds with 3% bodyfat (heh heh, that would be funny).

Get the picture. I'm sure most human beings want to see the same thing. That's entertainment and that's also why they make 20 million a year.

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CET

First off, I'm "natural" too. My only supplementation is vitamins. I understand the desire to see sports on an "even playing field". However, there isn't an even playing field, that's just a utopian idea. DNA already makes it an uneven playing field, because some people are just faster and stronger then others. Steroids are going to be in sports no matter what and they're far more pervasive then anyone cares to admit. As long as there's a shit load of money and fame to be had in sports, there's going to be steroids to bring atletes to their full potential.

BTW, when you say "natural means" and "Athleticism should be about one's natural ability without any other aids," what exactly do you mean? Does creatine count? It's found in red meat. What about special shoes, or other equipment? These are both types of "aids". Where do you draw the line with "natural" and "aids"?

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tical

CET, you realize this statement is false right? I'm not trying to be a dick here, you of all people should know this.

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CET

Got a link for this article? I would love to keep it and pass it around.

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CET

Nope, I got it and nothing in it disagree with anything I've asserted. On the contrary, it contradicts your assertion that gear inherently makes people stronger and faster. Becoming strong and faster is a function of stress, rest and nutrition. Leave out any one of these things and muscle cannot grow. Saying that gear inherently makes one stronger suggests that you can leave out stressing the body and still grow muscle. The only way to do that is to develope a myostatin inhibitor, which has not been done yet, but has been in the works for the last 30 years or so.

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CET

BINGO! And that is exactly why steroids have always been around in one form or another and always will be.

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LeWeekend

Would be cool if they had a roid olympics, but it would never work since there is no country where it's 100 % legal.. and all the negative aspects like it would give bad influence to youths etc

Anyway, I belive that a very high rate of the athletes are using some kind of steroids - more then most people would think. 8 years ago, the rate was probobly much higher in some sports like 100 meters.. People keep finding new ways to pass the tests, and new kind of drugs that cannot be detected etc.

Side effects of many drugs and steroids can be heavily limited if used safe, but most people don't use them safe unfortunaly

GH is a very safe drug for instance, but most BB's use too much of it and might get ugly side effects. Anavar is also a very safe drug, and so is many kinds of testo in low dosages..

CET

First of all, I appreciate you dropping the crap. Maybe you're just used to dealing with GFY trolls and what not. I tend to get a little bit defensive too, just because I'm used to people answering with things like, "You're such a fucking moron . . . "

Back to the subject at hand, all the credible literature (I'm discounting things like propaganda pamphlets from having credibility) I have ever read has been condusive to that statement. Steroids allow one to become stronger and faster, but they themselves do not make someone stronger and faster. Case in point, I actually know of guys who have done a cycle, not gone to the gym and gotten pissed off that they didn't make any gains.

Until we discover that illusive myostatin inhibitor, you cannot become stronger and faster by doing a cycle of whatever your favorite stack is and watching TV.

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Libertine

1. If steroids were made legal and were allowed in sports, the wealthiest athletes would still be able to get the best steroids.

2. You can't compare steroids to stuff like alcohol, tobacco, etc. They're completely different things. A better comparison would be the one to medicins. Does the usage of medicins increase if they are approved by the FDA and are made easy to come by? Hell yeah.

Right now, many very effective steroids aren't being used by professional athletes because they're easy to detect. If steroids are allowed, they'll start using those.

Prohibition and testing place very severe limits on what athletes can do without risking their careers. Remove those limits, and obviously some people will go beyond them - and because of what steroids are, they'll be the ones dominating sports.

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CET

Steroids being legal would be cheaper. Right now, more expensive doesn't mean more effective, it means less easily detectable.

Steroids certainly can be compared to alcohol and tobacco. Tobacco offers no good effects, only dangerous and deadly effects. Alcohol does little more then relax an individual, and red wine on occasion might make your arteries a little cleaner. Outside of that, alcohol offers no positive effects, only dangerous and deadly ones. More alcohol or tobacco related deaths occur in one day then with steroids in a year, or even an entire decade.

I'm sure there will be a couple of nut jobs that will think "more is always better", but that's the case anyway. The only difference is the stigma we'll attach to using gear and maybe athletes can get good supervision, or even someone getting a bad reaction will be able to fearlessly get the treatment they need. How many people die from illegal drugs every year simply because their friends are too scared to take them to the emergency room?

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tical

Please research hormone replacement therapy (specifically TRT) in older men. It has been shown that an increase in the ease of daily activities as well as fat loss occur in testosterone deficient males on HRT. This is due to androgenic stimiulus and the bodies ability to deal with physical and psychological stress (as stated by Jenetic)

Steroids DO have a positive effect on strength because of their androgenic properties (physical and mental). Read the above once more.

Maybe you missed my other argument about EQ and Halotestin, a couple of steroids that increase the users red blood cell count, positively effecting their V02 max and aerobic capabilities?

As for your off topic remark about a couch potato building muscle. Steroids like Anavar are used to increase protein synthesis, (directly related to muscle building) in wasting patients like burn victims.... to help these patients heal faster. These patients are (effectively couch potatos) limited to lying down and watching TV.

Duh, nutrition plays a roll... that's obvious, yes steroids do play a part in protein synthesis for muscle building but they do more than just that.

Staying on topic, an ATHELETE will get strength and endurance gains while using steroids. Your "assymilation" argument states that steroids ONLY enhance nutritional intake and muscle repair is wrong.

Steroids won't grow muscle for someone that is frozen in a block of ice, no. But even a couch potatos daily activities involve the use of muscle resulting in a breakdown of those cells, in turn benefiting (not much) from the use of AAS.

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Libertine

Seriously, you can't even talk about this subject if you've never actually tried steroids. You should try a deca/test cycle, and then see what the effects on your strength and such are. I think you're underestimating the whole thing

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Libertine

Steroids being legal would mean more research into performance-enhancing steroids, and thus you'll still get a new top level of the latest and greatest steroids. Obviously, pharmaceutical concerns will ask craploads of money for their best stuff.


Steroids can NOT be compared to alcohol, tobacco, weed, coke, etc, because the goal behind using them is completely different - and because of that, the effects of prohibition are completely different.
Steroid use for professional athletes easily lends itself to a rational cost/benefit alalysis. It's a gains versus risks thing, and if risks are big (prohibition, testing, etc) less people will use them.
Substances used for pleasure, on the other hand, fall outside of simple cost/benefits analysis, because "pleasure" is too vague a concept.

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CET

This is all in relation to stress that has been put onto the body. The body will recover from stress and steroids increases recouperation abilities.

I hate arguing the couch potato argument, but there are a lot of people who believe it. The body will not heal unless it has been damaged, and it will not adapt unless it has been stressed. You have not provided an example of how someone can adapt without stress, which is what I'm arguing against when I say "steroids do not make anyone faster or stronger."

That's all steroids do. Yes, an athlete will get stronger and faster, because the athlete is putting his body under stress, where as a couch potato is not. That's why I'm arguing that the steroid cannot do that by itself. By themself all they will do is increase recouperation, and nutritional assymilation. Without stress, all the gear in the world means nothing.

Adaption comes from unusual and usually intense stimulus, which is why most athletes exercise to muscular exhaustion. The couch potato is not stressing his body, therefore adaption cannot occur and all the gear in the world isn't going to make that couch potato grow any muscle.

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CET

You're kidding, right? Then research scientists aren't allowed to talk about their field of study unless they have tried what they are studying themselves. Come on. Experience is a great teacher, but it is possible to learn a great deal through studying a subject as well. Usually studying a subject will reveal much more then experience.

I don't care to risk my freedom on gear, I don't care to spend the amount of money that one cycle will cost, and I don't care to pin myself.

If gear was legal, cheap and available in a transdermal, I would seriously consider it. Until then, no thanks.

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CET

Sure, there would be better gear, and probably safer gear too. I'm sure there will also be huge FDA warnings all over the boxes they came in, but that's how it is with all things that are potentially dangerous.

It still makes sense that usage wouldn't increase with legalization. If it did, it probably wouldn't increase much. Why would someone start using something that they know little to nothing about? I may or may not be one of those who did use (assuming a transdermal were offered, which probably would be the case), I haven't decided, nor do I expect I will for a while.

The truly ridiculous thing, is that the fed is going on this anti-prohormone rampage. They're banning at least one prohormone every session. They're talking about banning creatine, the safest supplement ever put on the market and they want to ban it. This whole cycle of misinformation and banning is simply out of hand and it's freakin ridiculous.

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Libertine

You can't talk about whether something should be allowed or not if you haven't tried it and reasonably(!) could have, no. Just like experience alone is not enough to fully understand a subject, neither is scientific study.


As for legal, cheap and transdermal, it isn't quite the same as steroids but it will have an effect:
http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=414
30 more days of legality

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Libertine

Ofcourse it makes sense that usage would increase with legalization. You just said yourself, a few posts back, "I don't care to risk my freedom on gear".

It shouldn't come as a complete shock that there are many other people who feel exactly the same way.

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CET

Sorry, I simply cannot agree with the first statement. That's like those people who argue that only combat (which I am) vets are allowed to discuss politics in war time.

1-test is going away, but you can still get 1-AD which converts to 1-test inside the body. After that, just stack it with nandro, 4-AD (to get rid of lethargy) and a post cycle of 6-OXO (to avoid gyno).

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CET

Please tell me of one time in history when substance use increased after its prohibition was ended. I'm going on a historical prescident. Most prohibitionists use the argument you just gave, but I've never heard a prohibitionist proponent of anything every give one example of when their proposed scenario actually occured.

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Jenetic

With all due respect, a combination of knowledge and experience results in the most optimal and rational train of thought.

This particular subject of AAS causing an automatic increases in strength and performance is not something I like to comment on since it can give many people the wrong impression. However, this topic is more true than most people would like to believe and/or take the time to understand.

Many AAS users will report that certain substances such as methandrostenolone (Dianabol) cause a substantial increase in strength and endurance when taken prior to their training session. The general concensus would indicate that it's impossible. Especially, since methandrostenolone has been shown to have a week affinity for the androgen receptor (AR). These effects do in fact occur and are due to the activation of nongenomic pathways such as but are not limited to Ca++ fluxes, cAMP, mitogen activated protein kinases, protein kinase C, adenylyl cyclase, G proteins and G protein coupled receptors.

Regardless, there are no substitutes for training, nutrition and rest.

Jenetic

Libertine

Notice the (!) behind reasonably?
Risking your life in combat is not something that you could reasonably be expected to have tried. In fact, that goes for risking your life, period.

1-test is going, but so are 1-ad and 4-ad. The ban really includes just about all prohormones.

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Libertine

Sure. Red Bull. It was banned in a number of countries for a while, and not surprisingly, became more used in those countries when it was freely available.

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CET

No doubt, but a lack of personal experience does not mean someone is not qualified to speak on a subject.

The percieved increase in strength and endurance prior to training is likely psychosomatic. The days when I'm really pumped to get into the gym, I feel like I'm stronger then normal before I even get there. When I get there, I almost always have an above usual day. I don't use any gear, so it has to be something else, such as mood, hitting an optimal point of hydration and blood sugar level, or both.

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tical

Dude, I don't think you understand the concept of strength.

You also don't understand the role that androgenic hormones play in the human body in regards to strength (mental and physical).

Who do you write for?

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CET

Really? Have you got any stats to this?

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Jenetic

These effects are far from psychosomatic. This is based on the experience of my athletic training clients including myself.

For example, the comparison would be between 50 mgs Dianabol administered in a single dosage before training versus 50 mgs spread out at 10 mg intervals thoughout the day. The single dosing pattern cleary exerts an improvement in strength and endurance. However, due to the limited half life, the beneficial effects on protein synthesis and modulation of the glucocorticoid axis throughout the day are not as profound.

I understand where you are comming from, but all possible variables are taken into account with the level of athletes that I work with. In addition, you need to have a better understanding on the genomic and non genomic pathaways of androgens and the pharmacokinetics of AAS before jumping to conclusions.

Jenetic

Libertine

Yes, many. However, you can easily look them up yourself. The growth in popularity of Red Bull in countries where it was approved isn't exactly a secret.


But it isn't all that hard to figure out anyway: better distribution and availability leads to more sales. I'm not sure if you really want to deny that...?

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CET

No, you made the assertion, so you prove it. I'm not going to prove your arugment for you.

The second does not necessarily follow, because every prohibition in history was not followed by increased usage upon legalization.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-157.html

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Libertine

And I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on this looking up all the numbers again, because this is just a discussion on a message board. I've seen the numbers in the past though, showing how each time red bull got approved somewhere and was introduced into a market, it immediately sold loads and loads - for a large part because the earlier "not being legal" created a buzz.

Believe me or not, I advise you to check it out yourself, but I can't force you to accept reality.
Meanwhile, ask yourself if Red Bull would be able to have a $4BN yearly sales volume if it wasn't being sold in supermarkets, bars, etc.
Oh, and it might also be a good idea to think about drug sales on specific drugs after they get approved by the FDA

So you do not think better distribution and better availability help increase sales? How about lower prices then?

I know that if I'm not able to get something or if I'm not able to afford it, I'm not likely to buy it... but maybe that's just me.

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CET

That didn't seem to be a factor in alcohol prohibition.

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Libertine

Anyone with half a brain can make alcohol himself. However, I for one would have no idea where to start with making steroids.

You said yourself that if steroids were legal, cheap and transdermal, you might try them. So, in you, it would cause an increase in usage if they were legalized.
If I had a reliable source of steroids right now, I'd be using them again. So, in me, it would cause an increase in usage if they were legalized. Same goes for several people I know.
I also know people who, because it is illegal, think it's too dangerous to use. They'd use it if it were legal.

Now, it could be that we are the only people in the world this goes for. It's possible. Doesn't seem likely though. So, an increase in usage if it gets legalized seems extremely likely.

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