Running and treadmills.

[WarChild]

So over the last few weeks my knees have been getting sore and I thought for sure it was from all the Jiu Jitsu. I took it easy for a week there, and it still seemed to be getting worse. Finally a couple of days ago my one knee kind of gave out supporting me and was really painful for a few minutes so I finally went and saw a Doctor.

It turns out I have an inflamed MCL in one knee and an inflamed ACL in the other. The Doctor was surprised that I'd have damaged both knees at one time like that. He asked me if I'd changed my training at all in the last little while and I mentioned the only thing I had done is changed from running on thre road, because of the snow, to running on a treadmill.

I was always under the impression that running on concrete was worse for your knees than running on a teadmill. Not so according to this Doctor. He told me that as long as you have good running shoes, they will suck up almost all of the impact from the concrete and what impact they don't suck up is atleast applied in one constant force. In order words it's always your foot going straight down in to the concrete.

The Doctor went on to say that even the very best Treadmills, and especially at gyms where they're used an awful lot, don't move perfectly underneath you. They flex and rebound up and down and/or can wobble slightly side to side. It can be so minor you don't even feel it but it forces the ligaments in the knee to constantly have to balance this motion out. Cumatively this can eventually cause the problems I am now having. I was told to walk on a teadmill but run on solid ground.

Anybody ever hear anything like this before?

[tony286]

thats interesting i always thought it was the other way around.

[fuzebox]

I used to get knee pain and shin splints from the treadmill, but I always assumed it was because I was doing 10x the mileage that I was on the sidewalk... What your doctor says does make sense though.

I stick to the elliptical these days

[Jim_Gunn]

I used to run outside on the sidewalk and also run on a treadmill in the gym a couple of years ago. After about a year both methods began bothering the underside of my knees. I never had knee problems before, so I attributed the pain I felt it to the running, either way. If I had to say, I think that the treadmills were worse for my knees with the slamming down of the lower legs onto a moving surface. Running outside if done with a perfect gait, doesn't have quite the same feel.

After I quit running, I switched up to stair climbing for cardio and I haven't looked back. Climbing stairs on a machine or a real staircase are great workouts and build up your endurance a lot. More recently, I kind of got tired of doing stair climbing and cardio in general, so I switched to a three day on, one day off, three day on weightlifting routine, so that I exercise every muscle group twice in a week rather than go M-W-F-S with cardio on Tu & Thurs which only works the muscles once per week. I have gained some size and dropped some fat and I don't miss doing cardio at all.

[GTS Mark]

;-)

[Drake]

Jim, has the pain in your knees ever returned since you switched to stair climbing? I use a treadmill and there have been occassions where one of my knees has suffered some pain. I stay off running for some time to let the knee heel 100% before working on cardio again. I thought it was just me since I stopped playing sports years ago and figured the body, including knees, just isn't what it used to be. But Warchild's doctor's explanation about treadmills being bad/worse for knees than running on concrete seems to make sense.

[Alky]

I've never been a fan of running on treadmills... lately I have been doing a lot of LISS on treadmills though with good results.

I've never heard that running on concrete was better for you... you aren't ever going to run someplace that is perfectly flat... so I'm not sure how much sense that makes... but maybe thats why he has a phd. ;)

As far as working out... there have been studies recently that show LISS is just as or almost as effective as jogging.

[Pleasurepays]

i've wondered about that in the past. most treadmills have a significant amount of bounce/flex to them. if you study human kinetics, its amazing the amount of forces your body can absorb, but its all done within the limits of very specific movements/ranges of motion etc etc etc. when you start to stray from those and start to introduce more awkward/less natural motions/movements, you can have serious problems.. for example, hurt your ankle, then you start running a little funny (even unnoticeable) ... your opposite knee starts to hurt.. then your shoulder etc. the balance of how your body deals with motion/force is very delicate. it wouldn't surprise me at all to see someone seeing issues from running on treadmills... especially those with significant amount of flex to them.. however, the odds are definitely on the treadmills side, given how many people are running on them each day without issue.

[tical]

Yeah man the impact of running will deteriorate the cartilage in your knees as well as stress/weaken the tendons around it. As you age you're also enjoying a loss of regenerative hormones like GH/IGF-1.

Use the stair climber or an elliptical.

I'd also recommend looking into Prolotherapy. It's a non invasive technique (multiple shots of a natural sugar-based solution) used to cause inflammation and damage in targeted areas.

Some doctors will say it is "controversial" because they want to sell you something else or don't believe in natural approaches like this. It is cheap (around $75 bucks for a treatment) because all it is is simple shots.

The inflammation causes a cascading effect of the bodies natural healing abilities and allows your muscles/tendons/cartilage to re-repair itself - stronger and tighter.

I've done one session on my shoulder 2 months ago and it has practically eliminated the aching I would get from resting on it or lifting. I seriously was plagued with that shit daily. I'm going to go back for 1 more just to make sure its all gone.

www.prolotherapy.org

http://www.prolotherapy.org/regenerates-cartilage.asp (specific to cartilage)

Hope that helps!

[tical]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

i've wondered about that in the past. most treadmills have a significant amount of bounce/flex to them. if you study human kinetics, its amazing the amount of forces your body can absorb, but its all done within the limits of very specific movements/ranges of motion etc etc etc. when you start to stray from those and start to introduce more awkward/less natural motions/movements, you can have serious problems.. for example, hurt your ankle, then you start running a little funny (even unnoticeable) ... your opposite knee starts to hurt.. then your shoulder etc. the balance of how your body deals with motion/force is very delicate. it wouldn't surprise me at all to see someone seeing issues from running on treadmills... especially those with significant amount of flex to them.. however, the odds are definitely on the treadmills side, given how many people are running on them each day without issue.

whatup mofo! good to see you back

[mynameisjim]

I can't ride a stationary bike for more than 5 minutes without my knees hurting yet I go mountain biking and BMX riding for hours and feel great afterwards. Go figure.

I think when you are running in real life you switch up your gate and stride, you turn, and you speed up and slow down, which is actually better for your joints. With a treadmill, you get stuck in one motion and if that is putting a strain on anything, it really manifests into something.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by tical

whatup mofo! good to see you back

Hey Hey!! i'm getting less productive now.... but its also therapeutic!

thanks. need to start turning msn on!!

[marketsmart]

first of all, human beings aren't built for running.. treadmills compound that because you arent really running, you are more or less bouncing.

i also do mma and have found that doing sprints on soft ground like grass or sand is more productive and less strenuous on the joints than jogging...

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by marketsmart

first of all, human beings aren't built for running.. treadmills compound that because you arent really running, you are more or less bouncing.

i also do mma and have found that doing sprints on soft ground like grass or sand is more productive and less strenuous on the joints than jogging...

humans are built for running.... which is why we can and do run.

i think any 4 year old that isn't retarded is capable of making that observation.

[marketsmart]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

humans are built for running.... which is why we can and do run.

i think any 4 year old that isn't retarded is capable of making that observation.

you are stupid.. go do some research on anatomy before you open your shithole flap..

running is for beings with 4 points of contact (4 legs)..

running for bi peds is a falling action and not natural..

you are so stupid you should just kill yourself..

[Jim_Gunn]

Originally Posted by marketsmart

you are stupid.. go do some research on anatomy before you open your shithole flap..

running is for beings with 4 points of contact (4 legs)..

running for bi peds is a falling action and not natural..

you are so stupid you should just kill yourself..

PleasurePays is right, humans are built for running. As a matter of fact, some scientists theorize that the development of medium and long distance running was so important to the evolution of humans that it is the main evolutionary force that caused us to shed most of our body hair. This is due to the human body needing a much more efficient method of sweating due to the expanded naked surface area which allows us to keep a cooler body temperature under sustained running. This feature allowed early humans (and more recently American Indians on the Plains) to be able to literally run down powerful animals like horses over long distances, which look at a glance like like mammalian running machines! Horses, dogs and most animals with fur tire out pretty fast and have to stop to pant to lower their body temperature after a while or risk overheating, while humans can keep going.

[Janak]

Running is very tough on your body, and you can derive all the benefits you gain from it from less damaging forms of exercise.

[Jim_Gunn]

Originally Posted by Mike33

Jim, has the pain in your knees ever returned since you switched to stair climbing? I use a treadmill and there have been occassions where one of my knees has suffered some pain. I stay off running for some time to let the knee heel 100% before working on cardio again. I thought it was just me since I stopped playing sports years ago and figured the body, including knees, just isn't what it used to be. But Warchild's doctor's explanation about treadmills being bad/worse for knees than running on concrete seems to make sense.

No pain in my knees anymore. Sometime my hips feel a twinge while climbing stairs though. Guess it depends on the motion of the machines. I think it is good to switch things up so you don't wear out any part of your body.

[Pleasurepays]

Originally Posted by marketsmart

you are stupid.. go do some research on anatomy before you open your shithole flap..

running is for beings with 4 points of contact (4 legs)..

running for bi peds is a falling action and not natural..

you are so stupid you should just kill yourself..

not really sure what scientific method led you to the conclusion that running "is for beings with 4 points of contact" and "running for bi-peds is not "natural"

kind funny that walking is presumably "natural" for bipeds

walking fast would also be "natural"

breaking into a jog would be "natural"

yet... jogging a bit faster so that both feet are off the ground briefly is "not natural"

so... was it your in depth knowledge of anthropology that led you to this breakthrough?

are you insane?

Jon Clark? is that you?

[Spunky]

People may scoff,but In use the Tony Little Gazelle.not so hard on the feet and limbs and gives you a good work out

[starpimps]

my knees are pretty bad..cant run on concrete or a treadmill
the elliptical is all i have

[Deej]

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

not really sure what scientific method led you to the conclusion that running "is for beings with 4 points of contact" and "running for bi-peds is not "natural"

kind funny that walking is presumably "natural" for bipeds

walking fast would also be "natural"

breaking into a jog would be "natural"

yet... jogging a bit faster so that both feet are off the ground briefly is "not natural"

so... was it your in depth knowledge of anthropology that led you to this breakthrough?

are you insane?

Jon Clark? is that you?

Thems fightin words!

[Mr Pheer]

Elliptical machines rock.

I have a titanium plate and 6 screws in my left knee from a drunk driver hitting me. Was in a wheelchair for a while and then on crutches for MONTHS then could walk, but had to use a cane. I was never supposed to get beyond that.

I ordered an elliptical machine and used it. Was the only thing I could do that didnt put me in unbearable pain. After a few weeks I could walk without the cane, and after about a year I didnt even limp anymore. Now I can run and do everything I could before, but I still use the elliptical because its no shock to my joints at all.

My othopedic surgeon was amazed, he said this would be a disabling injury for me. But of course he takes all the credit for my full recovery. I told him the best way to see me do something successfully, is to tell me I cant fucking do it.

Get an elliptical machine, you wont be sorry.

[DarkJedi]

treadmills are worthless because you don't use as many leg muscles on them. they move for you, so all you have to do is just keep lifting your feet up and down, while during real running you have to push yourself against the road to move forward. more muscle work.

[buzzy]

Play football.

[rigrunner]

It could be the way you're running on the treadmill...If it's going too slow so you're running oddly in an unnatural way it can put more pressure on your joints etc...

Maybe up the speed a little? Try doing HIT cardio, sprints for a couple of mins down to slow jogs letting you catch your breath back, then ramped up to sprinting again. Can get a lot more work on the heart and legs with that than running steadily for an hour or so...

Could be a change of shoes needed too, got to have supporting shoes whether on concrete or a treadmill. Can really make a difference.

[james_clickmemedia]

yep, I try to avoid running on treadmills for any distance over 3 miles, firstly because its so fucking boring but mainly because they mess up your knees. Running outdoors is better on the body and mind.

[the Shemp]

i power walk from the couch to the fridge
and then back again...

[HorseShit]

treadmills are no good

[Raf1]

I don't like treadmills myself. It's pretty boring for me and I prefer going outside for a run whenever I can. When I'm at the gym I usually only us the bikes for a warmup

[BVF]

Originally Posted by Davey Jones

treadmills are worthless because you don't use as many leg muscles on them. they move for you, so all you have to do is just keep lifting your feet up and down, while during real running you have to push yourself against the road to move forward. more muscle work.

But you're a puny little ladyboy with no muscles....How would you know?

[BVF]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

i power walk from the couch to the fridge
and then back again...

Keep doing that at your age and your pallbearers will be powerwalking your casket to the cemetary.

[Itchy]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

i power walk from the couch to the fridge
and then back again...

Your not the only one

[Kard63]

I've heard this, but unless I get a pool inside my house I will not be giving up the treadmill.