AssPirate

Have you guys ever tasted grilled tofu that's been wrapped in bacon and beef fat? It is sooooooooooooo good!

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SmokeyTheBear

ok so we will compare squirrels and crows because they are found in fields and killed to grow veggies , compared to cows that are killed for my steak..

squirrels and crows are far smarter than a cow so you kill smart things to achieve a goal i kill dumber animals to achieve a goal .


i am not advocating killing our own species i am advocating kiling another so its a rather strange comparison. I will tweak it a bit as a better comparison. If a smarter life form such as aliens were growing humans for spare body parts , would it be ethical ? for them or us ? heh, i could understand it.

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[Labret]

Vegetarians make good hardcore.

bhutocracy

gfy just came out of it's coma.

Boobzooka

This argument is a bit of a strawman. While of course there will be some accidental casualties (mostly among the old or injured), generally crows or squirrels are quite capable of avoiding farm equipment with a wide safety margin. The noise alone would drive them out of harms way long before they're threatened. I've seen our cat try to catch both, through speed or stealth, but I've only seen her be successful against lesser creatures (lizards or snakes or small mice). They've evolved to be aware of their surroundings and fast enough to escape any potential danger. If not, at least that's a fair example of Darwinism. Farm animals don't get a chance to survive on their merits, so you're not even offering them the option of evolution.

It's not a strange comparison when you consider that you are distant cousins, descended from the same prehistoric beasties on the same planet, very similar genetically; so similar that we test our medicine on them first, and are now on the verge of cross-species organ transplants. The animals you eat are very nearly "human" with only relatively minor variations. They have similar emotions, because emotions are nothing more than inherited behaviors, genetic memory, acquired to advance the odds of your species survival. Your feelings are hardwired instructions triggering hormones, for utilitarian reasons only, not because you're some special creation. Some peoples egos won't allow them to acknowledge that, but much of the population felt the same way about other human races until recently. Our similarities outweigh our differences, which are mostly just in adapted form/function.

Because I wouldn't want your superior alien to harvest me, I try to follow the "do unto others" rule. I'm aware that my own continued existence isn't without cost and harm, but I'm not trying to find loopholes to justify ignoring the issue and not caring what happens to my fellow earthlings. I see the circle of life as a triage theatre; prioritize, help as many as you can, you can't save everyone.

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SmokeyTheBear

ever lived on a farm ? i have , tons of crows and squirrels and other "smart" animals are killed to grow vegetables, sorry , you can use whatever theoretical argument to make it better in your mind but the facts remains if you feed 100 people on meat and 100 on veggies MORE SMART animals are killed for the veggies.

Just so you know animals and their babies are plowed under and displaced in fields , by the THOUSANDS, and that doesnt even count the ones purposely poisoned/killed.

and p.s. if you lived on a farm you would know most animals aren't capable of outrunning farm equipment.

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SmokeyTheBear

hm sounds alot like it to me.. they aren't accidental if you know they will happen.

Thats like saying , "when i plow my car thru a crowd of old people there may be some accidental casualties as my purpose was not to kill old people"

animals are PURPOSELY killed to grow your veggies.. FACT

you are attempting to use loopholes to justify ignoring the issue, saying they are just old or weak , or if they cant go fast enough they deserve to die . excuse after excuse to explain why its ok for animals to die for your food but not ok to die for mine

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bhutocracy

It's hard to describe exactly how untrue this is. It is factually incorrect. Unconceivably wrong. The opposite of being right.
There is no possible way to believe this, I know you're trolling, but for the benefit of anyone reading. If you have ever lived on a proper farm, and I don't mean an acre or two with a couple of cows, but a proper meat production farm, you'd know that for the most part, cows pigs and chickens are fed cereal and soya. Yes there are some ranges and grass fed cows and chickens, but overall, grain fed beef, pig and chicken is how our meat is produced. Grain fed cattle grow 3 times faster than grass fed. It's simple economics. At any rate, it takes 10 kilos of feed to produce 1 kilo of beef and 5 kilos of feed to produce 1 kilo of pork. Meaning that pound for pound eating a big mac kills TEN TIMES your smart animals than a gluten/soya/etc burger. And then the actual cow as a cherry on top.
It's kind of funny how people don't understand the EROEI on meat production. It's so simple.
Stack up the 3 meals a day you've eaten your entire life in a large warehouse. At around 35 it's probably enough to feed 33,000 people one meal each.. Whereas if they ate your body which took in the energy from those 33,000 meals you'd only feed maybe 50 people.

Because eating plants is like eating the stacked up meals it's far more efficient. So yes, a certain amount of field mice and so on die to produce a tofu burger, but for some reason people just don't click that whatever that amount is, someone eating a beef burger kills ten times more. So it's not an argument against vegetarianism. If killing field mice is the thing you have an issue with, going vego "saves" many, many more of those animals.

Personally I don't give a shit. If I could kill the crows that wake me up every saturday morning without getting spotted by the neighbours I would. But I can't let a flasehood like that pass.

NikKay

Look into juicing. I wanted to ramp up the amount of veggies in my diet for the health benefits so I started researching. I ended up buying a juicer and a few books on the subject. Now I drink about 50 ounces of fresh fruit/vegetable juice every day and feel pretty amazing.

SmokeyTheBear

yet its still true.

for the record a 1200 acre farm, that is more than twice the size of the average american farm, and it wasnt a meat producing farm

ftr i eat grass raised cows, didnt require any animals to kill other than the cow. A cow feeds roughly 300 people. so 1 death = 300 meals. To grow/harvest an acre of vegetable you are looking at hundreds and hundreds of animals killed.

p.s. the vegetables we eat and cows eat are very different and require vastly different amounts of rodenticides to deal with them.






in theory perhaps , in reality no it doesnt. Not one animal besides the cow was killed for my burger, LOTS of animals were killed for the salad.

lets use an actual example to help put it in perspective for you and others.

Man #1 eats naturally grazing cows/chickens
Man #2 eats only veggies from supermarket
Man #3 eats meat from supermarket


The fact remains LESS animals were killed to make MY meal ( man #1 ) and i didnt have to kill any of the top 10 smartest animals on earth to do so the supermarket vegetarian had hundreds of the smartest animals on earth killed for their salad. Now if you mean picking natural vegetables then sure they do less klling , my bet is there isn't one vegetarian in this thread or on gfy that eats only "natural wild vegetables".

So the fact remains, less animals are killed for my meals than any vegetarian we have heard from so far and practically ANY vegetarian around. and i am not the side claiming to be eating vegetables to "save animals" . I eat what i eat because it tastes good , and as a side benefit i kill way less animals than your average vegetarian does to eat

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rayadp05

I think I should stop eating meat and become a vegetarian.

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undersoul

Thanks for the tip!

I want to eat healthier and I also am against the slaughterhouse practices of the mass market meat giants. anyone ever read fast food nation? great book, shitty movie lol

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rayadp05

Why are we even discussing this issue? Animals were put on the planet for humans to eat. It's always been that way.

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BradM

I don't care what anyones opinion is on the way I eat. I chose to give up red meat and pork. I feel 3x better than ever before. I ate tons of red meat daily my entire life. Then in December I just stopped. You can argue and debate all you want, I don't care.

HookUPcom

I used to follow the Dead and eat tons of LSD and other psychedelics... You can't eat meat when your high on psychedelics... You can feel the animals energy in your hand.

Things have changed and now I eat meat... And my belly is growing.

I better do something. ;)

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undersoul

now that sounds like some diet! lol

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bhutocracy

Talk about continuing to prove yourself either spectacularly ignorant or pointlessly argumentative. I won't waste as much time on this one but given you weren't on a meat producing farm (we used to own a piggery, and we currently work with an organic pig farm)- the vegetables we and animals eat aren't especially different. In the case I gave with burgers they're the same. Perhaps you're unaware of even how much cereal and soya is even in meat products. The average sausage is 30% vegetarian. People can't hack on vegetarians for only eating tofu and then say that tofu isn't soya when it suits them. 90% of what's in the vegetarian section of most supermarkets is cereal and soya.

I've already given an "out" for grass fed cows so no need to repeat my point. However you only need ONE meal to be from McDonalds out of ten to have ruined this. And although of course you're going to pretend you only eat lean steaks of pure grass fed cows and have never eaten a sausage, burger or taco you haven't made the mince from steaks yourself, and you NEVER eaten bacon, ham, pork chops.. and you only eat your own hand reared chickens you kill and you never eat chicken burgers, satay sticks or anything.. quite frankly, you're full of shit ;) You might make an effort to, but I doubt you actually achieve a pure natural/wild meat diet and that you don't eat pigs and chickens (free range just means they can go outside for a bit before coming in to eat their grain and roost). We used to kill our own raised chickens - you'd need a lot of them and it's very time intensive. But I'm in the same boat, I try to only eat wild caught fish but it's not easy either. Of course I don't have any moral objections to failing in that regard so it doesn't matter.

SmokeyTheBear

yes they are , they are specifically grown for them to eat, remember i grew up on a farm that grew them.



in the ones i eat . zero.


to ruin what ? i am not making any claim of no animals killed for my food, my claim is less animals are killed for my food than your average vegetarian .. and you haven shown anything to prove otherwise yet.. sorry to break it to you.

p.s. theres no way i eat even 1/100 meals at mcdonalds or anywhere similar



i eat em all
i got an old lady for that
can't say i do , maybe a few over the years, not something i eat, anything chicken or seafood i eat local and fresh
cant say i have tried those before, if you have a recipe i might try it.

and i never will nor did i ever aspire or claim to

I have raised , and killed chickens&pigs since i was a tyke.
I cant remember the last time i ate fish i didnt catch myself or know the person who caught it. Not to hard for me, and i certainly dont eat "wild" food because of any moral reasons , i do it because its easy for me and its tasty. I live in an area where its easy for me to take advantage of these things.

The point i think you miss is not that meat eaters kill less animals , its that making a claim that store vegetarianism doesnt kill animals or only kills slow dumb animals is false. They kill some of the smartest animals on earth for their veggies.

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CDSmith

Tonight I had sole filets, poached and lightly spiced, with buttered spinach on a bed of rice.

It was so mindblowingly good that it just reaffirms there's no way I could cut meat completely out of my diet.

Sorry to any and all grazers out there.

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mikesouth

the biggest issue with vegtarian diets is that some people, specially children need animal protien, so do males who do hard work for a living.

The older you get the less meat you need and a vegetarian type of diet becomes more beneficial but for children and most people under 40 who have an active lifestyle it is generally NOT healthy

and a vegan diet is bad period. You really need fish in your diet at the very least ...specially fish high in omega 3 like salmon but the protein is the main thing ask any good qualified nutritionist.

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L0stMind

Most of what I've read on juicing (not 'roids) claims that the majority of the healthy stuff is leftover in the discarded waste of the juicing machines - all the fiber, majority of vitamins, etc. while the majority of the sugars and such go into your glass.

You have any links you could share on juicing? I'm quite interested...

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NikKay

Here's a quick article: http://www.living-foods.com/articles/benefits.html

"Fresh juices are a tremendous source of enzymes. In fact, the "freshness" of juice is one of their key features, because enzymes are destroyed by heat. When you eat cooked foods, whether its meal, grains, fruits, or vegetables, if the food is cooked at temperatures above 114 degrees, the enzymes have been destroyed by the heat. Since fruits and vegetables are juiced raw, the enzymes are still viable when you drink the juice."

"Plus, since juicing removes the indigestible fiber, these nutrients are available to the body in much larger quantities than if the piece of fruit or vegetable was eaten whole. For example, because many of the nutrients are trapped in the fiber, when you eat a raw carrot, you are only able to assimilate about 1% of the available beta carotene. When a carrot is juiced, removing the fiber, nearly 100% of the beta carotene can be assimilated."

http://www.doctoryourself.com/juicefast.html

This was a good starter book for me: http://www.amazon.com/Juicing-Life-G.../dp/0895295121

Some good information on pulp: http://www.juicing-for-health.com/ju...p-recipes.html

My "Starter" juicer that has worked out really well: http://www.amazon.com/Hamilton-Beach...2823823&sr=8-1

tranza

Just watch people killing poor animals and you will stop eating...

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SmokeyTheBear

stop eating altogether ? we have already established that many "poor animals" are brutally killed to grow vegetables, and to top it off they are killed/maimed in brutal ways , often left to die an agonizing slow painfull death. And these are all wild animals not grown for food.

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ilbb

I did it overnight and now I'm vegetarian for 14 years

CDSmith

Nope, that's the beauty of living in modern society... you don't have to see it happening, you simply go to your supermarket and buy the meat already butchered. But hell, even back in the 18th and 19th century and probably even earlier most populated areas had someone called a 'butcher' who handled all that killing and cutting for people.


But make no mistake, if the world were to have some kind of major disaster, war, total collapse of humanity etc, and I somehow managed to survive, you bet I would hunt, kill and butcher my own food. So would most people here if not all. Foraging for enough veggies and grains to sustain you would very soon become difficult with no more farmers growing it for you, harvesting it all, processing grain into pasta, cereal etc. Once all that wonderful readymade stuff in the grocery stores ran out you would be out hunting bambi in no time flat.

Of course some will try to deny that. To them I say sorry, talk to the hand. :D

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Pornopat

All that? People back then ate meat maybe once a week. Some poor people maybe even once a month.

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Pornopat

Looks like I was right stopping to take you seriously.

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CDSmith

Some maybe. Not all. I'm not talking the great depression here, I'm talking all of the last 2-300 years give or take.

When daddy bagged a deer or uncle Timmy scored a moose you better believe they ate meat more than once a month.

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SmokeyTheBear

how so ? because more animals are killed for supermarket veggies than for my steak ?

not sure what there is to argue about . Do you dispute this fact or do you have some reason why killing many of the worlds smartest animals is ok for veggies but not ok to eat a cow ?

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Pornopat

Argument that plant consumption also kills animals

Professor of animal science, Steven Davis suggest that vegetarianism and veganism wouldn't actually reduce the number of animals killed if we used more cropland for a ruminant-pasture model of livestock production. Whenever a tractor traverses a field to plow, disc, cultivate, apply fertilizer and/or pesticide, or harvest, animals are killed. Based on a study finding that wood mouse populations dropped from 25 per hectare to 5 per hectare after harvest (attributed to migration and mortality) Davis estimates that 10 animals per hectare are killed from farming every year. If all 120,000,000 acres (490,000 km2) of cropland is used for a vegetarian/vegan diet then approximately 1.2 billion animals would die each year. If half of the cropland was converted to ruminant-pasture then Davis estimates only .9 billion animals would die each year, assuming people switched from the 8 billion poultry killed each year to beef, lamb, and dairy products.[14]

Gaverick Matheny, a Ph.D. candidate in agricultural economics at the University of Maryland, counters that Davis' reasoning contains several major flaws, including narrowing the definition of "harm" to include only the killing of animals, and calculating the number of animal deaths based on land area rather than per consumer. Because an equal amount of protein can be produced from 1 hectare of cropland, 2.6 hectares of ruminant dairy, or 10 hectares of ruminant beef, less cropland would be needed for a vegetarian diet. According to Metheny's estimates, 0.3 animals would be killed per person for a vegan diet, 0.39 for a vegetarian diet, and 1.5 in the Davis model. Matheny says that "After correcting for these errors, Davis?s argument makes a strong case for, rather than against, adopting a vegetarian diet." [15]

source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat

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SmokeyTheBear

10 animals per hectare hahahahahahahahahahaha

Thats the funniest thing i have heard all day , 10 animals per hectare per year lol, add about 3 or 4 zero's to that and you might be close, or did he mean JUST wood mice hahaha

both of them must share the same fucked up brain

this about sums about the article, a completely biased answer.

How does davis case make a strong case for a vegetarian diet ? unless he were a vegetarian trying to prove to himself he was being "ethical" by killing less animals. Lets just pretend we are fucked in the head and use HIS faulty math. So by his own numbers more SMART and WILD creatures are killed for a vegetarian diet, as opposed to a select few not as smart animals for the meat eaters..

The whole "fuzzy math" starts from a guess about fucking WOOD mice and ends with " a strong case" hahaha

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mynameisjim

The whole argument that harvesting crops kills more animals than eating meat is false, has been proven so repeatedly, and was put forth as anti-vegetarian propaganda. The same way that after the banks almost bankrupted the whole planet under the watch of GW Bush, the Republicans spread the word that is was all the fault of the Community Reinvestment Act. This is an old tactic. You never need to prove anything, just add in a little doubt and you will never have to answer your critics directly. The same way the oil companies fund science to debunk global warming. They could care less either way, they just need a few studies out there to keep people DEBATING, instead of deciding and taking action.

Not to mention, produce undergoes almost no processing once it is picked until it gets to your store. If hundreds of millions of rabbit sized animals were being killed during the harvest, it would be a common occurrence to find clumps of hair, bone fragments, blood, and other remains in your produce. But you never do.

Smokey, do you have a pet dog, have you ever owned a pet dog? Let's say I like the taste of dog so I come by your house, take your dog and bring him to slaughter house. Once there, he would watch 50 other dogs brutally slaughtered while he waited in line. Once it was his turn, he would be strung up by his hind legs upside down, his throat slit, and he would slowly die as the blood drained from his body as he moved down the assembly line. Alone, confused, and frightened, that's how your dog would die.

Would that be OK with you? Or is there a difference between your pet dog and a cow, or a pig, or a chicken?

Meat eaters can rationalize all they want, but they are removed from the slaughter and gross inhumane treatment so they pretend it isn't happening or doesn't effect them.

Can any of us live a perfect life where we don't cause harm to any other living creature? Of course not. But we can limit our negative impact. Not eating meat limits that negative impact on innocent creatures who would otherwise needlessly suffer inhumane and brutal treatment.

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Pornopat

Now stop right there and let it sink it to your head what you are saying:
You are saying 10 thousand to 100 thousand animals per hectare per year are killed for farming crops.
You are being plain silly.

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SmokeyTheBear

hogwash , anyone with a brain can figure it out with a calculator. show me where it has been disproven . I hope your stats dont count on missing wood mice for your numbers.


has anyone ever seen vegetables with bugs, can you guess how many would be on a huge field , can you guess how man bugs and rodents are killed with pesticides and rodenticides ? does any sane person think you could even compare the amount of bugs and rodents killed to cows and chickens lol

let me guess animals killed for vegetables arent really animals they are feelingless , brainless animals with no memory or ablity to feel ?



lol thus no animals are killed. I hope your not laying too much weight on that lol, i cant think of ANY vegetable that wouldnt be sized and washed and in that process animal parts are removed, but dont believe me go ask any farmer.

yes

umm lol you and what army may i ask ?
umm no..
well quite a few , frstly i suppose is that a dog is raised to be a pet , cows,pigs and chickens are raised to eat. Secondly , cows, pigs and chickens supposedly taste alot better than dog ( thats the most important part ). Would i kill wild dogs if they tasted great ? yup


kinda like vegetarians are, when animals are painfully and brutally killed for their food, unlike cows and chickens that are killed with thought given to doing it as quickly and as painless as possible.


Do you know that when crows eat certain pesticides or bugs that have they burn from the inside out slowly and painfully until they die ? do you know they spray them all over the veggies you find at the supermarket ? did you know alot of the vegetables in american supermarkets are grown in HUMAN and of course cow/chicken/pig sewage ?

yes but not eating meat doesnt limit that on its own
as i have shown and anyone can figure out no it doesnt , you just kill MORE of different creatures for your food and pretend because you dont see their big shiny eyes on peta commercials it doesnt happen.

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SmokeyTheBear

far far more much more likely its a million or more, a single tomato plant can have as many as 1000 aphids on it, they would likely be treated several times per year

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SmokeyTheBear

gophers can be as dense as 80,000 per acre ( course that was extrapolated from an 18 per square yard max density )

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CDSmith

Here's a scenario: Your plane goes down over the ocean, you end up alone on a deserted island (or maybe with the one hot supermodel that was on your flight, I don't know I'm making this up as I go)

There are animals on the island, a few boars perhaps, a wild pig or three, plenty of fish and other marine life to catch and eat. You're not sure which plants are safe and which are poisonous, and the ones you do find aren't enough to fill your belly much less sustain you for the days or possibly weeks you may have to wait (or longer) before being rescued.

Every veggie here would hunt and fish, I guarantee it. Those who deny it are just that, in denial. Or they would starve to death.

Imagine that, starving to death with food all around you. How pathetic would that be?

My point: people in general eat meat, and have done so since the dawn of humanity. Deal with it. Given the right situation most if not all would hunt to stay alive, so best get off the high horse some are on and quit with the judging and criticism.

And above all, y'all have a nice day. :D

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bhutocracy

Ok, time to put you to bed with the facts... I'll reference them this time just so you can't say "nanana got my fingers in my ears" ;)

"Around 60 percent of corn and 47 percent of soy produced in the United States is used in
domestic livestock production for feed."
http://www.agobservatory.org/library...o f%20corn%22


"Because soybean meal is the principal source of protein for the feed industry worldwide, it has become an ingredient that is strategically traded around the globe every day of the year. Feed manufacturers use soybean meal as the standard against which other protein sources are compared. Soybean meal has also become the protein source that determines the price of proteins for livestock feeding."

"Pigs and Poultry
Soybean meal dominates the market for protein supplements for pigs and poultry. There are a number of reasons for this, including its consistency in nutrient content, its ready availability year round, and its high content of crude protein. Because pig and poultry producers desire high-energy diets, soybean meal is of superior value because no common plant protein
feedstuff exceeds soybean meal in digestible energy content. Soybean meal also matches or exceeds all other common plant proteins in both total and digestible amino acid content."

http://www.australianoilseeds.com/__...d_Industry.pdf


However many animals the average vego kills with their diet, the average meat eater kills many times more because the animals eat the same base products.. not only that theres a FURTHER multiplication if your animals were also fed meat meal.. the animals that went into that were also fed vegetables lol.. Ok well thats pretty much the end of that.. On average I win. If you ONLY eat grass fed beef sure. but on average vego's kill less, even if you're going to talking silly shit like bugs ;) night y'all
;)

Pornopat

I would hunt and eat animals yes. If I would find nothing to eat I would probably eat the supermodel.
Conclusion : we are all canibals.

Interesting point though about the judging and the criticism. Do you feel you are attacked by vegetariens because they chose to do other things?
I am 38 and I have been a vegetarian for 18 years. I have never started a discussion about this. Yet practically every meal I have been invited to I needed to explain why I am a vegetarian.

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ShellyCrash

This is my friend Tex:



He lives with my human friend Christian. Tex is super awesome and very smart, you'd be amazed! This is the face I put on a BLT, and part o the reason why I don't eat meat.

If you're a carnivore or not, you have to appreciate that we live in a society that has engineered foods so we have the choice. It is completely possible to live a full and balanced healthy life w/o killing animals for sustenance.

I never liked the taste of red meat, so giving up beef was by far the easiest thing for me because I never really ate it in the first place. My diet is tough the last few years since developing ulcers I don't get to eat alot of raw veggies, I can't even really have salads, so I probably don't eat as healthy as I could, but I try.

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Slappin Fish

This is the issue I have with vegetarians right there.

Vegetarians always tell you how much better they feel, how much more energy they have.

Yet, EVERY single vegetarian I know has absolutely no energy and is always half sick.

SmokeyTheBear

your very first fact you got wrong, so im not holding my breath.

Did i say cows dont eat soy ? or did i say "they are specifically grown for them to eat,"

But like i said don't believe me , GO ASK A FUCKING FARMER you tards , you are arguing a futile point. Cows dont eat the same grain we do . FACT .

no they most certainly do not

do you eat cow feed ? do cows eat salads and broccoli and the thousand of other veggies you use that are sprayed with pesticides and rodenticides ?

Do they eat the same "base" products ( i.e. food ) yes, the MAJOR difference is the genetically altered food cows eat is much different than the food we eat, grown in different fields with different methods using MUCH MUCH MUCH different methods of pest control than food you find in your supermarket.
at 1000 aphids per tomato plant, you have alot of killing to give up before you can even come close to that claim.
because everyone knows bugs aren't animals lol, whatever makes you feel better about killing animals for your food, go ahead and feel it

meat eaters and vegetarians both have lots of animals killed for their food , the only difference is the vegetarians pretend it doesnt happen, and the meat eaters have common sense

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mynameisjim

Smokey, your premise is flawed so I'm not sure how much longer I can argue.

You claim that harvesting vegetables kills more animals than eating meat. But if I eat vegetables AND meat, how can that be better? Obviously if you are eating meat in addition to vegetables which kill animals, the total animals killed will be higher if you are a meat eater as opposed to just being a vegetarain.

Even if I concede that your argument is correct, I am still responsible for less animal death than you are if we follow your logic, which was my claim from the beginning.

So even though I don't agree with you, I will concede that harvesting vegetables kills as many animals as you say (even though it's not true). But I still win even accepting your argument and logic, because by not eating animals, I am responsible for less mistreated animals than a meat eater, and that was my claim all along.

You are also starting to argue the use of pesticides. That is a separate issue and I'm sure it comes as no surprise that I an unhappy with the amount of pesticides used. Personally, I only eat organic vegetables. But like I said, that's a separate issue.

You also said that animals are killed painlessly when they are slaughtered for their meat. You may want to look into that a little bit as you are TOTALLY wrong. In Europe, animals are at least gassed before they are slaughtered. No such law exists in the U.S. But it's not just the way they are killed. The cows you see when driving cross country are not the ones you eat. The ones you eat come from feed lots, feed lots you never see. The reason you don't see them is because they are shocking to see in person. Literally millions of cattle pressed shoulder to shoulder. They are given growth hormone because they never move and would never build muscle without the steroids. Not to mention, their feed is so unnatural that unless they are fed antibiotics from the time they are born, they would all die from the poor diet. I won't even get started on chicken farms.

Remember a while back, some guy posted a video on Youtube where he whipped a cat against the wall? It was posted here on GFY and pretty much a witch hunt started across the internet, people bought domains, they found out his name, they contacted the police and he was arrested within 24 hours. People right here on GFY talked about how they would love to kick that guys ass. That was ONE FUCKING cat that got mistreated and people freaked out. Yet millions and millions of animals are being mistreated as you read this and all those same people pretend it's not happening. They are rationalizing. They love animals as much as I do, but they pretend that eating meat is alright and in step with their own values when it is clearly not upon close inspection of their behavior.

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ShellyCrash

The ulcers have nothing to do with my diet though, it's because I have migraines and have had to take medications for years that have really taken a tear at the lining of my stomach. I've had them since I was a kid, when I was eating meat.

The docs have said they would prefer it if I ate meat, but it's not a necessity for me. I'm not mal nourished, if anything I am the opposite ;) My hair doesn't fall out, I don't look like Zelda from Pet Sematary or anything ;)

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CDSmith

Ever been a meateater and been on a date with a vegetarian?

"Are you really going to eat that?"
"Don't you know you're contributing to killing of poor animals?"
[looks at your steak as you cut a piece] "That's disgusting"
"Blah blah blah me, blah blah blah my way, blah blah BLAH"

Please, don't talk to me about being judged and criticized.


Thank you for admitting you would indeed choose to hunt, and survive.

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sweetredhead

Been a vegan for 2 years now. I love it, find it very simple and i'm healthier than ever and feel great!!!

I don't hassle meat eaters either, it's my choice and fully respect meat eaters as that is their choice. Life is too short to hassle someone who likes to eat a steak.

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undersoul

agreed. time for me to give it a shot. after this weekend bbq of course. lol

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bhutocracy

Ok let me add yet another nail into the coffin of your argument. In my very first post I said it was nonsense to compare a life in a binary way, equating a mosquito to a dolphin, they are obviously of a different level of consciousness , self awareness etc. Which removes pretty much your entire argument right there. But if you're going to be stupid enough to argue about aphids I'll accept your binary life argument and crush you with that as well. Yes yes vego's kill lots of aphids, as I've already proven half the soya etc grown goes to animal feed and because it takes ten kilos of soy to produce a kilo of meat the average meat eater kills ten times more aphids (for arguments sake, I mean whatever insects eat soy) As I've already shown but magically soy, corn, wheat grown for cows is different to soy etc grown for humans.. by the very act of growing it for animals so standing aside that total nonsensical objection.. Caring for all living things.. every spark of life is equal in your argument right? That's the flimsy rickety little bridge of an argument you're using?

Right?

Here comes the smackdown.

You are a horrible mass murderer with your grass fed beef eating.. EVERY SINGLE COW HAS 1000 TRILLION BACTERIA IN IT'S GUT that you are killing when you kill the cow..

End of argument. I win on the commonsense side, and I win on your ridiculous what about the poor aphids and bacteria. QED. ;) Anyways that was fun, but now I've lots of work to do killer ;)

shermo

I have been meat free for over a year and a half. I however have not cut out fish, which I generally eat in sushi form. The lack of cooking is known to cut down a bit on carcinogens if that is what worries some people.

Part of the Vegetarian diet and key to being healthy is to eat RIGHT. Your diet must be high in fiber, contain plenty of colored foods, saturated fats and preservatives should be consumed sparingly and you must make sure that you are getting the other nutrients that your body needs. This can be through supplements, etc.

The way I got off of meat was cold turkey. I did however decide to eat fish once or twice a week, which helps me not crave meat. Within 6 months along with normal exercise, I went from 200 lbs to 155. The majority of the weight that was lost, was fat.

Recently I have started intrducing weigh protein to my diet after workouts, and I am adding muscle at a rate of about 2 lbs a week, which is feeling good. Of course I also eat the occasional junk food. Once a week is what experts suggest, as if you avoid it at all costs, you will eventually break down, binge and you'll lose the benefits you've worked so hard to gain.

I hope this helps someone...if not, oh well