marketsmart

that about sums it up....

i think that scene represents what about 98% of americans think....








.

Trend

I agree but do you know why you get all of this paperwork... compliance and regulations.

Trend

See we do agree on some things!

crockett

This is where I have to tell you to go blow goats. I'm used to the typical whines, but I really do get sick of people who equate lack of wealth with "laziness". It make me think the person saying it was born with a silver spoon in their mouth with mommy and daddy paying for everything to put them where they are now. They are typically the ones that don't understand how hard it can be to pull your self up from the bottom of the food chain.

People that worked and busted their ass to be well off would never just "assume" that anyone else that can't do the same is lazy.. The reason is because they know how hard it was and how lucky they got, to get where they are.

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The Demon

HAHAHAHA as opposed to equating the rich with "greedy and corrupt"? Great going, hypocrite.

Personal responsibility makes more sense than blaming everything on socioeconomic status.

__________________
Greed is Good

goodsites

ill pay 10% more, give me the 250k year.. fuck i work harder than Will does, if he is in that bracket, this world needs some more earthquakes to straighten things out.. working by the week fucking sucks and nothing you can do about it.. but listen to these idiots and how propaganda has fucked their cheesy infested brains lol..

CosmicTang

Here's what you said: If you're saying that the idea that the rich cheat to become rich is a myth, and you said it, then you've said that the rich don't cheat.

Reasonable people call your flat denial of that a lie, or hypocrisy. Take your pick.

you said this:
If America is different because our values are so distinct and that justifies why we run our health care system in such stark contrast to the other Western industrialized nations then it follows logic that our values would also dictate a difference in who rules and how. If our Plutocracy is no different than anyone else's than neither are our values. You can't have it both ways.

More hypocrisy.


Not an emotional outburst. Just pointing out your hypocrisy and challenging you to do better.


The reason the depression happened at all was due to a lack of reasonable regulations. People were trading on margins and the banks weren't regulated to protect their deposits so that they could take enormous risks with money they didn't actually have. I'm not advocating over-regulation and wouldn't go as far as the Democrats would, but it's painfully obvious that the participants of the system such as banks and other financial entities are incapable of regulating themselves or behaving in a way that will benefit anyone but themselves. Some regulation is necessary and that regulation should be written and enforced by people NOT associated with these institutions in any way at all.


Not enough government = financial meltdown


Neither illogical nor emotional. Rational and metered response to your complete lack of shame in being able to criticize people who abuse the system at one end but can't be honest about the abusers at the other.


Not an insult, only an observation. Perhaps you should look up the difference. BTW-I didn't need to look up pejoratives. Keep the vituperative tone up though, it's nice that you can amuse yourself so cheaply.


Amazing comment coming from someone who claims to be a fan of Ron Paul and Peter Schiff. Perhaps instead of just saying you're a fan you should really dig into what they're saying instead of reading the cliffs notes. They've both pointed out the flaws in the system and how it's geared to keep the plutocracy in power...especially Ron Paul. You can also read Stiglitz and Krugman.

In all your postings and rants I see lots of opinions, anecdotes, ad hominem attacks, hypocrisy, petty name calling and an adolescent attitude which deflects any serious challenge with "that's a straw man" or "no it isn't" or "you clearly don't know much about (fill in the blank)" but I see no facts whatsoever. It's almost as if you watch or scan some sources with conservative POVs but don't actually do any research on your own.

Dropping names of politicians, economists and the Peter Schiffs of the world doesn't amount to much if you don't listen to or understand what they're saying. I don't see the ability to think critically in your posts. You're clinging to ideology without giving any room for the possibility that you or your POV could be flawed in any way.

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will76

I feel better now I went and beat up a couple crack heads and got my tax money back from them

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goodsites

Amen to you brother... And if we keep letting these capitaiist pigs continue to spew their propaganda bullshit they will win.. It's simple to all those who dont know where to stand how to see it.. .Look at who is the ones whining, the ones WITH EVERYTHING, who hardly work and got lucky.. Please point me to one person who works 60 hours a week 6 days a week forever who supports this and I will join your EXPLOITING side.

WILL NEVER HAPPEN. LITTLE WHINY RICH BITCHES who seriously are not losing anything.. Have much to gain as everyone else.. getting brain washed by the industry that just reaks in billion after billion on this gravy train system in place today.

Cant even go to a doctor anymore, withoout seeing the fucking blood and $ in his eyes.. The fuckers can care less if they cure me, he is so worried about money and the lack of it, cuz noone goes see him anymore, that his entire plan is how he can get 5 extra office visits on me which are $125 for 2 minute visits..

He gives me 3 days of antibiotics and says come back in a week (hahah) i see him giving therapy to cured people who have insuraunce, saying... oh can you please come back one more time

The whole system is fucked, about to be repaired and these moron rich bitches who dont have a bit of common sense are helping them keep their corrupted system in tact..

Getting to the point its time to leeave this country.. there is nothing here of value any more... If health care faills.... the dream is gone.. no sense to come to america.. then watch what happens to your $250k year income.. just watch

The Demon

Read it again.
See the bolded part? I have NO idea how you got "the rich don't cheat."



More hypocrisy.[/quote]
This is blatant misdirection, as you originally initiated by discussion about plutocracies. Really good try at misdirection, you lose.

There's been no hypocrisy on my part, just poor reading comprehension and various strawmen on yours, as well as blatant misdirection.

No, the reason for the depression was monetary and fiscal mismanagement, as well as a lack of responsibility by people. The last thing Americans want is the government regulating our bank system, that would be disastrious. Once again, the only difference between private sector and public sector is that the public sector/government has a printing press. Some regulation is fine, but SOME.




Except the past 100 years disagree with your assessment.

Another strawman and continued emotional outburst. Either present a rational argument, or concede.

You're amusing me more than I could amuse myself.




So what you're saying is, you have no idea what you're talking about and now are just trying to sound intelligent? Everything I have said has been 100% in congruence with the studies of Austrian economics, as well as Schiff and Paul, while you've been advocating the opposite, especially by introducing Krugman, who is by far the dumbest economist I can think of not named Bernanke.
So basically, you have nothing legitimate to add so you make up a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit regarding my posts, and leave it at that? Hilarious.

Seeing as how you've shown no ability to argue with me on any level, I think you should just sit down.

__________________
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will76

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noe...out-our-govern


If they spent a little more time cleaning up the fraud with medicare (instead of budgeting for it) then they wouldn't have to tax us (errr the people who make over 250K) more money to pay for the people who don't have health care (and who honestly deserve help to pay for it). All of that fraud money could have gone to good use instead to thieves.

It's just easier to tax the people who make more than 250K than it is to fix the problem. There is a lot less people making over 250K than there are people making under 250K so they don't care if they piss off (abuse) a small part of the population, those loss of votes wont hurt them. As far as the democrats are concerned they know they weren't likely to get many of those votes anyway.

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The Demon

m-o-r-o-n

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Joshua G

will i think you paint too broad a brush. there are people who abuse the safety net. to state that its "most people" who are "lazy" & "do drugs" & "have kids they cant afford" is absurd, & sounds more like the emotional sentiment Demon's always bitching about from the left. Back up these sentiments with some numbers to show "most" people in the safety net are freeloaders.
Although i am generally sympathetic to the principle that the successfull should not be robbed by the tax man to subsidize freeloaders, i'm not persuaded that "most" recipients are undeserving. People work hard at self employment, but their idea doesnt make it. People work their whole adult lives at a company & are laid off. Great workers lose their jobs to a decision made on wall street to relocate a plant to china.
COBRA has alleviated the loss of health care when good people lose their jobs. But costs have exploded so high that reasonable people can't afford the prices insurance companies charge in the individual markets. & if your sick, you won't even get insurance. your just expected to shell out 10s of thousands out of pocket to stay alive. Not to mention you may pay all your insurance bills, & the insurance company will make a loophole to deny you a claim.
our darwinian capitalist system works fine when you have a job & when you are healthy. For the sick & unemployed, it is nothing but a death panel.

CosmicTang

Demon, you really don't debate, you sling insults and attacks. You don't use facts, you use opinions. You can't even acknowledge your own bullshit.

You're right, I can't argue with you on your level, I can't possibly reach that low without hurting myself.

You really should just sit down now, and then please shut up. You have nothing productive to add anywhere that I can see. You're a gadfly.

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The Demon

I've destroyed every aspect of your "argument" and watched you squirm out of it by using the typical "no you're stupid". Thanks for playing, move along. I've used nothing but facts and watch you bullshit your way out when I called you out. You don't even know what policies Schiff and Paul follow while posting your nonsense. Thanks for making a fool out of yourself
https://youtube.com/user/schiffre.../1/11WlFlO_mDg
https://youtube.com/user/schiffre.../0/xxDwnRGruPs

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JaneB

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Rep...ower-Tax-Rates


President Kennedy proposed across-the-board tax rate reductions that reduced the top tax rate from more than 90 percent down to 70 percent. What happened? Tax revenues climbed from $94 billion in 1961 to $153 billion in 1968, an increase of 62 percent (33 percent after adjusting for inflation).

According to President John F. Kennedy:

Our true choice is not between tax reduction, on the one hand, and the avoidance of large Federal deficits on the other. It is increasingly clear that no matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenues to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits? In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now

will76

I agree there are people in the top that did illegal acts to get there. While I don't agree it's all of them or even a large percentage, I think anyone would be an idiot to not realize that some people did illegal acts to get where they are today. Hell our politicans, as a group, probably fit that category better than any one else.

Those people who did illegal acts should be pointed out and convicted, and hung. I have no more compasion for a person who deals drugs and collects wellfare (and soon to be free health care) than I do a corporate person who did something illegal to get wealthy.

However that may be, disportionitly taxing the hell out of the people who make the most money is not a justified punishment. For one thing if someone "stole" 10 million dollars and had to give 5 million of it up for taxes, is that really punishing them? no. They still +5 million to the good. Now what about all of the other people who actually earned their money legally? They would be the ones suffering for it.

Here is a copy of the US income tax rates for last year:



There is a lot of professionals who make more than $208K or $372K who are getting taxed to hell in the higher brackets. Not to mention business owners, small med and large who make that much or more. The majority of these people worked hard and earned the money legitimately. The rest either came into wealth from an inheritance, won it (lotto) or received it from a lawsuit. Regardless if they worked hard for it or not, they obtained the money legally. In the cases of inheritance chances are the govt took a huge chunk of it, which is another rant for another thread. The taxed money that had already paid taxes on.

If you (a family) make 250K a year, I wouldn't consider you rich, maybe upper middle class. After you pay taxes to social security, medicare, medicade, now more money to cover more people for health care, and then you pay income tax, you don't have a ton of money left over. Then factor in all other living expenses, even more if you have kids, you may live well but you are not rich. Never mind all the other taxes you get hit with:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer registration tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax


I think it is terrible that a lot of people have the mentality, well the rich make a lot of money let's let them pay for it.

Just from income tax, here is how it brakes down right now: (my math should be close)

Person making 30K a year pays: $3,600.00 average of 12% of their income goes to income tax.
Person making 250K a year pays: $60,256.00 average of 24% of their income goes to income tax.

If it was fair and everyone paid say 20% the person making 30K would pay 6K and the person making 250K would pay 50K. By nature of making more money, the person making 250K would still pay over 8x more in taxes than the person who made 30K. You think that would be enough... nope. Both people use the roads, school, police department, etc.. the same amount. One person is contributing a lot more to society. He is successful therefore he pays more, but at least it is fair because everyone is taxed equally. Why should the person who makes 250K have to give up 24% of his income to pay taxes when the person making 30K only gives up 12% of his income? And this is just for income. You throw in taxes like this new health care bill, only people making more than 250K will pay for it...

That is the problem with this country. Tax the rich, make them pay for it should be our motto. A lot of people really think it is fair to keep making the rich pay for these things instead of everyone paying for it. There is no valid justification for that. That is just a bandade to the real problems. Instead of holding people accountable and stop giving out hand outs to people who don't deserve or need it, we just robin hood them. Keep throwing money at them, instead of making them responsible and forcing them to contribute to our society instead of bringing it down. The more we tax the rich to throw money at the irresponsible poor and hand feeding them, we are just teaching entire generations of people to be unproductive. They teach their kids to be loosers, they still stay poor and ignorant and the more money taken from the people at the top, especially business owners, the less jobs they can offer and less productivity they can provide to society.

Many of these people will live generation after generation on wellfare or in the projects. For those of your liberal heart bleeders, you are really not helping that person by throwing money at them. You would really be helping them if you made them take responsibilty for their actions, that is the only way these people will ever amount to anything. Taking money from the rich to throw at them because you feel bad is not fixing the problem. Or throwing more money at them so they can go buy more drugs, alcohol, gamble, keep having kids they can't afford, etc...

The problem isn't just with the people on the bottom that is not responsible, but with our own goverment who just prints more money to pay for everything. What kind of message does that send, you can't balance a budget are trillions in debt and you just print more money. Or the bail outs and ceo's who make millions and/or got bonuses for running corporations in the ground and costing us all lots of tax money. I don't like seeing my tax money wasted on anything.

Bottom line is if we don't hold people responsible for their actions then this country is just going to keep getting worst and worst till we become 3rd world country. People need to take personal responsibilty and how is that ever going to happen if we keep letting them off the hook. We keep rewarding them everytime they fuck up and tell them it's ok keep fucking up we can get a lot more tax money (from the rich) to help you.

(note, this is for people who abuse the system, not the people who actually try and need help. If there was less people abusing the system, there would be more money to go to the people who were trying and actually needed it.)

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Agent 488

still looking for a day job?

theking

The upper middle class/wealthy are doing better than ever tax wise and otherwise...and a few additional percentage points will not hurt them. To the best of my knowledge income tax has always been a progressive tax and I personally think that is a good thing. I have never resented paying taxes.

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will76

Noooo, but now it's only going to be coming out of the pocket of the people who make 250K a year or more. The other 99% are off the hook, the burden to pay for all the irresponsible people has been shifted to the top 1%. Problem fixed right? lol not.

In theory the whole " now people wont use the ER" sounds good but it isn't going to work that way. This will just result in more abuse and more fraud like medicade and instead of fixing the problem they will keep collecting more and more in taxes to throw at it.

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will76

I was looking for a job as a 24/7 troll, but that one was filled.

(let me know if you quit, I will apply again)

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will76

He was also the guy that said "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". If more people did for themselves and didn't milk the system, that would be less taxes all of us would pay, and a lot more money pumped into the economy making us a much stronger country. Instead we are going in the wrong direction, giving more and more and more to the people who leach off of this country and bring it all down. "free money" should never be given out, everyone should earn, one way or another EVERY penny they get in assistance, unless they are truley dissabled or already trying as hard as they can and need a hand up.

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will76

see my other posts where i clarified my use of the word lazy. I never assumed that everyone who isn't successfull = lazy. I was pretty clear who I am talking about.

FYI, i grow up for a good portion of my life poor with a single parent, I busted my ass for every penny I ever made, never cheated no one and never got any assistance. I worked myself through college. Don't be so quick to think I had a silver spoon in my mouth, quite the opposite. I know it's harder for some than others, but everyone can do it. And I've seen a lot of people that choose not too and are rewarded for just collecting checks and being irresponsible.

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will76

There are people who need and deserve help, there are people who straight up fraud the system, there are people who choose to spend their money on nicer things (or illegal things) and not spend it on health care, and then there are people are irresponsible and in poverty but keep having children. those are the facts. what are the statistics for how many are in each group? I don't think anyone knows exactly.

irresponsibility without accountably breeds unproductivity. And if you reward people on top of that, it just makes it even worse.

I've repeated my points about 10x and am done with this thread and clarified what I meant by "lazy" as well as included a lot of other types of people not just the ones who keep having kids they can't afford or do drugs... I have family that don't have a pot to piss in but they keep having kids. I don't understand the lack of responsibilty, they are broke with 1 kid so they have 3 more and end up on wellfare because they can't afford them. It happens a lot. I bet if they weren't given wellfare, wic and all the other govt aide, and instead they had to work 100 hours a week to pay for those kids they would have been more responsible. It is easy to be irresponsible when you know the govt will bail you out.

People will take the parts of my posts they want to see depending on their views and ignore everything else I said. If they think I am calling all poor people lazy drug users, if that is what you people got out of everything I had to say, then our country is more worst off than I thought.

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Boobzooka

If you mean donate it all to a charity, or individual cases, that actually just perpetuates the problem. People then think charities are there to save the unfortunate, when in reality they can only assist a fraction of the cases, and their funding is unreliable. It alleviates society's guilt undeservedly. Universal healthcare can only be organized effectively through good government.

What I am doing personally is transitioning my wealth and family to a more moral country. So instead of bringing wealth into the USA, I'll be draining it out. That's unfortunate, but I've seen enough. I have already moved a significant amount of money, bought property there, and now we're just waiting for an elderly pet to pass before emigrating. I'll definitely miss a lot of stuff here, but it's a conscience thing. Currently I don't feel good about where my taxes go, and where they don't go. The amount is irrelevant, but by the time you add up federal, state, self employment, etc then it might actually save me money to move to a "socialist" country.

Most capitalist countries provide universal government run healthcare, and their rich still lead very privileged lives full of all the same excesses we have here in America. Unfortunately some people never feel enough is enough. Personally, I have zero sympathy for someone more worried about whether they can afford that 3rd home or 6th car while the people who work for them go untreated. This strawman argument that somehow the rich paying a few percent higher means they'll give up their successful business and wait tables for a living instead is absurd. The gap between rich and poor isn't that small. Infact, it's so massive most Americans can't even see the other side of it. The top 1% control 42% of the wealth. Our rich can afford it, especially after we reinvest all the money we're currently wasting on our corrupt private insurance system. In practice, the difference would not impact the average millionaire lifestyle in any noticeable way. Unless they made that money by denying healthcare.

The average cost of universal healthcare in most countries is about 10% of GDP. Any civilized society can afford that, and again it's cheaper than our current system (16%). That's what Americans need to understand; they are paying more for less. And it's a fatal ripoff.

That is complete corporate apologist bullshit. The vast majority without insurance do not have it because they can not afford it, because the employer doesn't offer it, or because they have preexisting conditions. At least this weak ass reform bill is supposed to take care of the latter. And prevent them from dumping customers as soon as they get seriously sick. That's how they make so much money, by denying care to people who paid their premiums for years. This isn't just about the uninsured. The fools who thought the system worked just never had it put to the test. They didn't know about lifetime limits and all the other exclusions. And by the time you discover you're not as covered as you thought, it's too late, and noone else would cover you, and you're bankrupt or dead. And it's all legal, so you (or your grieving family) can't even successfully sue. It's a scam.

And then we have the repulsive issue of losing coverage when you lose your job, accepting shit working conditions out of fear of your family losing coverage. It's a system built for slaves.

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MaDalton

not better or worse than in most other countries around here. probably a bit worse on the country side. but if you want work you'll find something. or you start your own venture. and guess what: if you're successful you'll be as rich as anywhere else. corporate tax is 24% btw - and you can take your profit out of the company for a 15% flat tax without paying additional personal taxes.

the problem here in Czech Rep. is that 40 years of REAL socialism has corrupted a lot of people and they have a lot to catch up to.


the thing is that 99% have no clue what real socialism is - the former GDR (Eastern Germany) was a socialistic country - and surely no one wants anything like that anymore. but living in a society that takes care of the less fortunate ones (even if a few misuse the system) is something I wouldn't want to give up.

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directfiesta

About time you realize that ...

Stopped "debating-answering" the Demon for those exact same resons.
Sticking to a one-liner once in a while to show how dumb that guy is ...

__________________
I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT !

But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

BVF

This argument makes absolutely no sense....The lazy are rewarded every day RIGHT NOW!!!

I don't think it's FAIR that one can work hard to live in a neighborhood while a broke muthafucka lives next door with a government subsidized Section 8 certificate.

I don't think it's FAIR that people are struggling to pay their mortgage while an adult with a bunch of kids who failed in life gets a new house built for them free and clear by people like Habitat For Humanity....

I don't think it's FAIR that women are allowed to make baby after baby and get FREE MEDICAID for both the children AND the mother while other single working mothers who are barely making it can't get insurance.....

I don't think it's fair for a woman to have child after child and have a full refrigerator of food purchased with food stamps while other folks struggle to eat ramen.

I don't think the child support system is FAIR.....

There's a LOT of shit that I don't think is FAIR....But guess what? LIFE AIN'T FAIR!!.......And since you're so "educated" yourself, you would have learned in Economics of the "trickle down effect".....So just because some lazy fucks will benefit does not mean that hard working honest american taxpayers have to suffer because YOU don't think it's fair...

If you don't like how shit is taxed, take it up with the IRS, who has been backed by both Democrat and Republican presidents alike.....And only a fucking moron would think that everyone who needs healthcare and can't afford it are doing drugs....That's fucking idiotic.

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The Demon

So is thinking that everyone who can't afford health care, can't afford it because it's the fault of outside forces.

__________________
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The Demon

Once again, Directfiesta proving nobody takes him seriously on this forum and that people only respond to this simple buffoon out of sympathy.

__________________
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BVF

I said because of DOING DRUGS....Don't pick one sentence out of that whole diatribe I just wrote and then ask a totally unrelated question....

THAT'S idiotic....

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Sausage

Yeah tax the wealthy more ... that has been proven to work.

Oh wait ... no it has the opposite effect .. and while you are at it how about taxing business more too ... bound to convince more business to set up in your country.

The Demon

I think you completely missed the point. If you're going to generalize like you did in that sentence, I'm going to generalize as well.

__________________
Greed is Good

will76

+10 people who read something then twist it around to something that wasn't there.


lesson learned. if you post more than 2 sentences on GFY, people can't comprehend what you wrote. Go back and point out where I said " that everyone who needs healthcare and can't afford it are doing drugs " you might as well be arguing with the wall because the wall had a better chance of saying that then I did. But like I said previously:
obviously the "drug users" part struck a cord with you and you remembered just that part. All the other situations I mentioned where I feel people abuse the system, you just ignored that, what you got out what I said was poor = drug users lol. Never mind the fact that from the start I separated out the people who actually are poor and need help and was only talking about the ones who don't deserve the help.

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Sexretary

I am staying out of this argument but will bump it for ya.

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BVF

Wrong....I picked apart your whole argument of what you thought was FAIR by giving numerous examples of how LIFE isn't fair....I just threw in the drug users part as an added bonus....

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BVF

I didn't generalize shit if I'm quoting someone else when I'm making the point.

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The Demon

Yes, you did. Keep trying though.

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Greed is Good

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"Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom." We have heard that many times. What is also the price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections. If everything that is wrong with the world becomes a reason to turn more power over to some political savior, then freedom is going to erode away, while we are mindlessly repeating the catchwords of the hour, whether "change," "universal health care" or "social justice."

If we can be so easily stampeded by rhetoric that neither the public nor the Congress can be bothered to read, much less analyze, bills making massive changes in medical care, then do not be surprised when life and death decisions about you or your family are taken out of your hands-- and out of the hands of your doctor-- and transferred to bureaucrats in Washington.

Let's go back to square one. The universe was not made to our specifications. Nor were human beings. So there is nothing surprising in the fact that we are dissatisfied with many things at many times. The big question is whether we are prepared to follow any politician who claims to be able to "solve" our "problem."

If we are, then there will be a never ending series of "solutions," each causing new problems calling for still more "solutions." That way lies a never-ending quest, costing ever increasing amounts of the taxpayers' money and-- more important-- ever greater losses of your freedom to live your own life as you see fit, rather than as presumptuous elites dictate.

Ultimately, our choice is to give up Utopian quests or give up our freedom. This has been recognized for centuries by some, but many others have not yet faced that reality, even today. If you think government should "do something" about anything that ticks you off, or anything you want and don't have, then you have made your choice between Utopia and freedom.

Back in the 18th century, Edmund Burke said, "It is no inconsiderable part of wisdom, to know much of an evil ought to be tolerated" and "I must bear with infirmities until they fester into crimes."

But today's crusading zealots are not about to tolerate evils or infirmities. If insurance companies are not behaving the way some people think they should, then their answer is to set up a government bureaucracy to either control insurance companies or replace them.

If doctors, hospitals or pharmaceutical companies charge more than some people feel like paying, then the answer is price control. The actual track record of politicians, government bureaucracies, or price control is of no interest to those who think this way.

Politicians are already one of the main reasons why medical insurance is so expensive. Insurance is designed to cover risks but politicians are in the business of distributing largesse. Nothing is easier for politicians than to mandate things that insurance companies must cover, without the slightest regard for how such additional coverage will raise the cost of insurance.

If insurance covered only those things that most people are most concerned about-- the high cost of a major medical expense-- the price would be much lower than it is today, with politicians piling on mandate after mandate.

Since insurance covers risks, there is no reason for it to cover annual checkups, because it is known in advance that annual checkups occur once a year. Automobile insurance does not cover oil changes, much less the purchase of gasoline, since these are regular recurrences, not risks.

But politicians in the business of distributing largesse-- especially with somebody else's money-- cannot resist the temptation to pass laws adding things to insurance coverage. Many of those who are pushing for more government involvement in medical care are already talking about extending insurance coverage to "mental health"-- which is to say, giving shrinks and hypochondriacs a blank check drawn on the federal treasury.

There are still some voices of sanity today, echoing what Edmund Burke said long ago. "The study of human institutions is always a search for the most tolerable imperfections," according to Prof. Richard Epstein of the University of Chicago. If you cannot tolerate imperfections, be prepared to kiss your freedom goodbye.

-Thomas Sowell

Quoted the entire thing because he's absolutely brilliant... Read it and continue the debate!

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pradaboy

It's a fine balance between socialism and capitalism...

Point is, there will always be people who are not able to take care of themselves. Even if you threw 300k at them they would not know how to survive a year. It's the result of "civilization". We keep the sick and stupid alive for as long as possible, even if that means making them suffer more and more.

This society as a whole will keep producing people who cannot sustain themself, no matter what. The question here is, do you want to take care of those people?

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The Demon

This sounds awfully like an excerpt from "Knowledge and Decisions." Very good read, complicated though.

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Greed is Good

will76

It's a loose loose argument.

I know everyone here knows eveything but I thought at least most of them could at least read what I posted instead of making up shit to try to support their arguments.

I know better than to waste my time on politics, I was just frustrated at the lack of responsibility (among other things) in this country and how the people who screw up just keep getting rewarded for doing so. And everyone in the middle would rather rape the rich to throw money at the poor, so they can feel better about themselves for "doing the right thing" but the vast majority of them wouldn't have voted for a bill like that if they realized they would be paying for it too.

I agree life isn't fair. But this isn't a "life isn't fair because I got hit by a drunk driver " fair. Or " I got cancer" fair. These are policies and laws voted by the people of this country, the things (taxes, laws) that could be changed and have changed back and forth over time.

You wrongly saying that I believe every poor person = drug users, whether an added bonus or not, is just retarded. You know I didn't say that, or meant that.

LMAO quoting, find where I said every poor person = a drug user. please quote me LOL. you make up shit then say you quoted me.

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mikeyddddd

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PornMD

The underlying cause of the medical problems in this country is people's diet/exercise. More and more people have computer jobs and sit there all day (*raises hand*) and don't make up for the difference in cal expenditure in other ways. Then they eat shit for food, get no nutrition whatsoever, blow up into a fat ass, and we wonder why we have such a rampant obesity, diabetes, heart, cancer, etc. problem today.

Health care costs so much because so many more people need it today than in the past. High demand so everyone can raise their prices and suck people dry. If the costs of health care weren't so bad, even if insurance companies made a pretty penny being the middlemen, insurance premiums wouldn't be nearly as bad and people could afford it. This will amount to fixing a gunshot wound with a band-aid, and I've already said enough about how the economy has been in a shithole and should have been his primary focus as it is.

I give props at least to Pepsi and Kraft, who both recently came out and said they're going to be reducing sodium in their products. Hopefully more follow suit and the underlying issue here can be fixed eventually.

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CosmicTang

QFT

www.foodmatters.tv

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Kevsh

The problem is that your values are whatever lobbyists tell you they are.

Daddy Big Nuts

Great post

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Elli

Someone tell this woman she's lazy and shouldn't have had kids she can't afford:



And while you're at it, tell her to shell out hundreds of dollars a month for health coverage that may well be denied at the most crucial time instead of putting that money towards feeding her family.

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The Demon

Translation: I can't think for myself so I can't come up with a valid argument so I'm going to tell him that the lobbyists dictate his values for him and that will effectively end the conversation.

Nice try Kevsh, back to the drawing board.

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Greed is Good

BVF

I NEVER said that YOU said that every poor person = a drug user....Where in the fuck did you get that idea from?

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