Socialized medicine? Watch this video.

[NetHorse]

[NetHorse]

Oh and don't bother replying unless you watched the entire video.

[kane]

I watched it and while he makes some really good points it is hard to say how realistic it is. You could just as easily put together a piece of video like Michael Moore did that makes it look the the Canadian system is fast, easy to use and works flawlessly.

I know a few people that live in Canada and most of them say the same thing about it. If you have an emergency or are badly injured, it works great. If you need regular check ups and treatment any average primary care giver can provide it works great (albeit you might wait a little longer than some to get into see the doctor). If you fall in the middle where it takes time to diagnose and deal with your issue, it can be a pain in the ass.

We have many of those same problems now. Here is an example that just happened to someone I know:

A friend of mine started having some severe hip pain. After a week or so it wasn't going away and she got worried. She goes to see her doctor who says she has some problem with and will need to see a specialist. He gives her some pain meds and some pamphlets on how to stretch out early in the day to help relieve the pain. It takes 6 weeks to get into the specialist. The specialist wants an MRI done. It took another 2 weeks get that done because it had to be pre-approved by the insurance. The specialist looks at the MRI and tells my friend she will have to have surgery. But there is a catch. The insurance won't pay for surgery unless other 'less invasive' methods are tried first. So the specialist sends her somewhere else to get a cortisone injection. After the injection she has 30 days of physical therapy. This will not work. The specialist said so. The reason it won't work is that my friend's hip socket has a flat spot in it. She was born with it like that and over the years that flat spot has destroyed the cartilage on the ball of her hip. The only way to fix it is to go in and surgically repair the cartilage and use a laser to re-shape the hip socket. But insurance won't pay until they jump through these other hoops. Finally 4 1/2 months after going to see her doctor and spending a bunch of time doing stuff she didn't need to do, she gets the surgery.

We already have socialized medicine in a way. It is controlled by one body, that body just isn't the government, it is the insurance companies. If they don't think you need a treatment, you aren't going to get it unless you either sue them in order to get them to pay or pay for it yourself out of pocket.

Be it the government that controls it or insurance companies that control it, there will always be problems. Only when doctors and patients get to control the care will things work as they should and that isn't happening unless you can pay cash for your treatment.

[Paul Markham]

No system is perfect unless you're prepared to spend a small fortune on it. With people living longer and more discoveries in the medical field all the time the costs are going to climb.

But I would never want to be in a system where an insurance company decides whether I live or die. And with my recent throat cancer that would of been the case. The chemo therapy I got involved new drugs that were being tested, I had to sign a waver form, and from what I heard they were not covered for in the US. Even though they are a US drug.

[zabijaq]

damn propaganda sh!t.

People in US should sometimes takes their fat asses out of their country and visit other countries.
You're healthcare is licence to steal. Not in terms of socialized or everyone for himself. It's just heavily overpriced.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by kane

I watched it and while he makes some really good points it is hard to say how realistic it is. You could just as easily put together a piece of video like Michael Moore did that makes it look the the Canadian system is fast, easy to use and works flawlessly.

I know a few people that live in Canada and most of them say the same thing about it. If you have an emergency or are badly injured, it works great. If you need regular check ups and treatment any average primary care giver can provide it works great (albeit you might wait a little longer than some to get into see the doctor). If you fall in the middle where it takes time to diagnose and deal with your issue, it can be a pain in the ass.

We have many of those same problems now. Here is an example that just happened to someone I know:

A friend of mine started having some severe hip pain. After a week or so it wasn't going away and she got worried. She goes to see her doctor who says she has some problem with and will need to see a specialist. He gives her some pain meds and some pamphlets on how to stretch out early in the day to help relieve the pain. It takes 6 weeks to get into the specialist. The specialist wants an MRI done. It took another 2 weeks get that done because it had to be pre-approved by the insurance. The specialist looks at the MRI and tells my friend she will have to have surgery. But there is a catch. The insurance won't pay for surgery unless other 'less invasive' methods are tried first. So the specialist sends her somewhere else to get a cortisone injection. After the injection she has 30 days of physical therapy. This will not work. The specialist said so. The reason it won't work is that my friend's hip socket has a flat spot in it. She was born with it like that and over the years that flat spot has destroyed the cartilage on the ball of her hip. The only way to fix it is to go in and surgically repair the cartilage and use a laser to re-shape the hip socket. But insurance won't pay until they jump through these other hoops. Finally 4 1/2 months after going to see her doctor and spending a bunch of time doing stuff she didn't need to do, she gets the surgery.

We already have socialized medicine in a way. It is controlled by one body, that body just isn't the government, it is the insurance companies. If they don't think you need a treatment, you aren't going to get it unless you either sue them in order to get them to pay or pay for it yourself out of pocket.

Be it the government that controls it or insurance companies that control it, there will always be problems. Only when doctors and patients get to control the care will things work as they should and that isn't happening unless you can pay cash for your treatment.

I see what you're saying. But, I'd rather have the choice then be forced to pay outrageous taxes and have socialized medicine.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

No system is perfect unless you're prepared to spend a small fortune on it. With people living longer and more discoveries in the medical field all the time the costs are going to climb.

But I would never want to be in a system where an insurance company decides whether I live or die. And with my recent throat cancer that would of been the case. The chemo therapy I got involved new drugs that were being tested, I had to sign a waver form, and from what I heard they were not covered for in the US. Even though they are a US drug.

I don't know what you consider a "small fortune" but I pay a couple hundred a month for BCBS PPO health insurance. I can go to ANY doctor or specialist of MY CHOICE and even get 2nd or 3rd opinions. I've never been denied anything, I get the best possible care and it's prompt. I wouldn't have it any other way...

It's good to hear you were able to overcome cancer though..

Originally Posted by zabijaq

damn propaganda sh!t.

People in US should sometimes takes their fat asses out of their country and visit other countries.
You're healthcare is licence to steal. Not in terms of socialized or everyone for himself. It's just heavily overpriced.

I've been all over the globe, I have family in Canada, London and France. Have you ever been to the United States?

By the way, you are healthcare? Licence? Please speak proper English, then you will get a real response from me..

[TheDoc]

I have been into a one care centers and I had to take a ticket, I then waited for 8+ hours, to take a piss test.

I know many others that have been sent home after waiting 8 hours, to be sent home again the next day...

I have waited hours while having an asthma attack. Then got 15 mins on the machine, and was handed a $1800 bill.

I have not waited plenty... but I have always had a copay to fork up.

Then one time in Canada, I cracked my elbow... Got an xray, wrap, cold thing, my bill was $0. Then my girl had some female issues, we waited for like 2-3 hours, the bill at the end was $0.

You know... if I have to wait, I would rather the bill be $0 when I'm done.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

I see what you're saying. But, I'd rather have the choice then be forced to pay outrageous taxes and have socialized medicine.

Right now you pay a higher % in fees for insurance, plus your out of pocket costs... then pretty much anyone else in the world.

Call it a tax, a bill, a fee, whatever you like.... but tax wise for Canadians, it's cheaper than you pay now for insurance - on medical.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Right now you pay a higher % in fees for insurance, plus your out of pocket costs... then pretty much anyone else in the world.

Call it a tax, a bill, a fee, whatever you like.... but tax wise for Canadians, it's cheaper than you pay now for insurance - on medical.

I may pay more, but at least I have the freedom to choose. I also pay more for premium health care, PPO insurance is the most expensive. It covers anything from going to the chiropractor to seeing the best brain specialist in the country.

If I wanted that kind of health care in Canada I'd have to pay their outrageous taxes AND pay for services from a private clinic. No thanks.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

I may pay more, but at least I have the freedom to choose. I also pay more for premium health care, PPO insurance is the most expensive. It covers anything from going to the chiropractor to seeing the best brain specialist in the country.

If I wanted that kind of health care in Canada I'd have to pay their outrageous taxes AND pay for services from a private clinic. No thanks.

Freedom of choice, for what? Choice wise, doctor, location, services, times, it's all pretty equal right up until you get to your back pocket.

Of course we have a couple hundred million more people or so, so it's expected that we have a few things they don't... choice wise though, they just send the Canadian here or some other place in the world, and the Canadians bill is $0...

So you're okay with paying more money now, while having the same choices and options? That's crazy talk!

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

If I wanted that kind of health care in Canada I'd have to pay their outrageous taxes AND pay for services from a private clinic. No thanks.

The private care they can opt in for is dental, vision, stuff like that... and the rates are so much cheaper than what you pay extra for them on... it's so much cheaper, that you can visit Canada with no insurance, pay cash, and it's still cheaper than than it costs to get insurance for that in the states for one month.

I think you guys might want to smack yourselves back into reality here... what they have dominates what we have.

[the Shemp]

too bad they didnt interview me....
----------------------------------------
this was my experience with the canadian system...

i was diagnosed with blood cancer at 3pm on a thursday, in a small medical clinic, 60 miles from Vancouver...3 hours later i was in a private room at the Vancouver General Hospital, Leukemia center...i had a meeting with a hemotologist and an oncologist within an hour, outlining the procedures ahead...friday moring they operated on me and inserted a three tap catheter into my chest....Later that day the final results came in from my bloodwork tests and the type of my Leukemia was identified... next morning chemotherapy started...and i was in the private isolation room for 6 weeks...after that i was a day patient getting treatment daily, but able to go home each nite..

i was going to need a bone marrow transplant and fortunately for me, 7 months later a suitable bone marrow donor was found in Germany... a member of the transplant team from Vancouver flew there to get the stem cells that i would need to survive...

i was given the transplant and again i was in the bone marrow transplant unit for almost 7 weeks...of course my body tried to reject the bone marrow many times over the next two years and i was really a basket case with a ton of side effects, some of which i still have today...but with new anti rejection drugs and hands on attention from a team of dedicated professionals, i was able to keep alive...

the cost for treatment like this in Seattle is over 400K...my cost in Canada, was the parking meter and a new pair of glasses and i still have full medical insurance...they dont kick you out if you have previous medical problems...its a good system, not perfect of course, but i never had to fight with an insurance company or worry about losing my house to pay for the transplant...in fact, i didnt even have to start a begging thread on GFY ...

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Freedom of choice, for what? Choice wise, doctor, location, services, times, it's all pretty equal right up until you get to your back pocket.

You think every doctor or specialist provides the same level of service? I guess you wouldn't know because you've never had the choice..

BTW, by freedom of choice, I meant I get to choose whether I even want to pay for health care. With socialized medicine you pay ridiculous costs in taxes regardless, and it's basically only as good as a basic health insurance plan here in the states.

Of course we have a couple hundred million more people or so, so it's expected that we have a few things they don't... choice wise though, they just send the Canadian here or some other place in the world, and the Canadians bill is $0...

You keep saying the bill is $0, look at what you pay in taxes..

So you're okay with paying more money now, while having the same choices and options? That's crazy talk!

Same choices? Can you go see a dermatologist of your choice TODAY? How about a chiropractor? If you needed brain surgery can you get 5,6, 7 opinions and then choose the best brain surgeon in the country?

Originally Posted by TheDoc

The private care they can opt in for is dental, vision, stuff like that... and the rates are so much cheaper than what you pay extra for them on... it's so much cheaper, that you can visit Canada with no insurance, pay cash, and it's still cheaper than than it costs to get insurance for that in the states for one month.

I think you guys might want to smack yourselves back into reality here... what they have dominates what we have.

My insurance covers dental, (up to $2,000 a year) and vision. I don't care if your socialized crap where you may or may not die in the waiting room is cheaper; I want to pay for my OWN premium insurance to get the best possible care.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

too bad they didnt interview me....
----------------------------------------
this was my experience with the canadian system...

i was diagnosed with blood cancer at 3pm on a thursday, in a small medical clinic, 60 miles from Vancouver...3 hours later i was in a private room at the Vancouver General Hospital, Leukemia center...i had a meeting with a hemotologist and an oncologist within an hour, outlining the procedures ahead...friday moring they operated on me and inserted a three tap catheter into my chest....Later that day the final results came in from my bloodwork tests and the type of my Leukemia was identified... next morning chemotherapy started...and i was in the private isolation room for 6 weeks...after that i was a day patient getting treatment daily, but able to go home each nite..

i was going to need a bone marrow transplant and fortunately for me, 7 months later a suitable bone marrow donor was found in Germany... a member of the transplant team from Vancouver flew there to get the stem cells that i would need to survive...

i was given the transplant and again i was in the bone marrow transplant unit for almost 7 weeks...of course my body tried to reject the bone marrow many times over the next two years and i was really a basket case with a ton of side effects, some of which i still have today...but with new anti rejection drugs and hands on attention from a team of dedicated professionals, i was able to keep alive...

the cost for treatment like this in Seattle is over 400K...my cost in Canada, was the parking meter and a new pair of glasses and i still have full medical insurance...they dont kick you out if you have previous medical problems...its a good system, not perfect of course, but i never had to fight with an insurance company or worry about losing my house to pay for the transplant...in fact, i didnt even have to start a begging thread on GFY ...

That's awesome, seems you were very fortunate. I have no doubt that people have had mixed experiences just as people here in the states have.

[the Shemp]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

That's awesome, seems you were very fortunate. I have no doubt that people have had mixed experiences just as people here in the states have.

that is my real life experience with the canadian medical system, not some some edited video where every person they talk with has a negative story...you can call it fortunate... but i say thank you canada and appreciate living in a country where basic health care comes with my citizenship...

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

that is my real life experience with the canadian medical system, not some some edited video where every person they talk with has a negative story...you can call it fortunate...

I believe you, and yes obviously that video is negative towards socialized medicine; however, those are their real life experiences as well..

but i say thank you canada and appreciate living in a country where basic health care comes with my citizenship...

That's great, I'm glad the system worked for you. I too am grateful that our country doesn't operate on an overinflated government run bureaucracy. I'm also grateful that I can choose the level of health care I need without the government choosing for me and then taxing the hell out of me every year.

[EscortBiz]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

too bad they didnt interview me....
----------------------------------------
this was my experience with the canadian system...

i was diagnosed with blood cancer at 3pm on a thursday, in a small medical clinic, 60 miles from Vancouver...3 hours later i was in a private room at the Vancouver General Hospital, Leukemia center...i had a meeting with a hemotologist and an oncologist within an hour, outlining the procedures ahead...friday moring they operated on me and inserted a three tap catheter into my chest....Later that day the final results came in from my bloodwork tests and the type of my Leukemia was identified... next morning chemotherapy started...and i was in the private isolation room for 6 weeks...after that i was a day patient getting treatment daily, but able to go home each nite..

i was going to need a bone marrow transplant and fortunately for me, 7 months later a suitable bone marrow donor was found in Germany... a member of the transplant team from Vancouver flew there to get the stem cells that i would need to survive...

i was given the transplant and again i was in the bone marrow transplant unit for almost 7 weeks...of course my body tried to reject the bone marrow many times over the next two years and i was really a basket case with a ton of side effects, some of which i still have today...but with new anti rejection drugs and hands on attention from a team of dedicated professionals, i was able to keep alive...

the cost for treatment like this in Seattle is over 400K...my cost in Canada, was the parking meter and a new pair of glasses and i still have full medical insurance...they dont kick you out if you have previous medical problems...its a good system, not perfect of course, but i never had to fight with an insurance company or worry about losing my house to pay for the transplant...in fact, i didnt even have to start a begging thread on GFY ...

amazing story, glad you where treated right in a time of need

here is what people seem to forget

if you open any business or offer any service, even if your service involves sending 100 dollar bills to random people, you will have a % of people angry at you or bitch about what you do.

Only time will tell with this health care reform, any change is dangerous and risky and against human nature.

[the Shemp]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

I believe you, and yes obviously that video is negative towards socialized medicine; however, those are their real life experiences as well..

That's great, I'm glad the system worked for you. I too am grateful that our country doesn't operate on an overinflated government run bureaucracy. I'm also grateful that I can choose the level of health care I need without the government choosing for me and then taxing the hell out of me every year.

the canadian sytem has been in place now for a generation or two...subsequent left wing, right wing, centralist and coalition governments havent changed it very much...because a large majority of canadians dont want it changed... and yes there are strains on the system and yes, we pay more for cigs and booze and gas... thats not much of a sacrifice for a national health care system...generally though, canadians look at society as a whole, while americans look at it as individuals and that is the major difference between our countries.

[roly]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

You think every doctor or specialist provides the same level of service? I guess you wouldn't know because you've never had the choice..

BTW, by freedom of choice, I meant I get to choose whether I even want to pay for health care. With socialized medicine you pay ridiculous costs in taxes regardless, and it's basically only as good as a basic health insurance plan here in the states.



You keep saying the bill is $0, look at what you pay in taxes..



Same choices? Can you go see a dermatologist of your choice TODAY? How about a chiropractor? If you needed brain surgery can you get 5,6, 7 opinions and then choose the best brain surgeon in the country?



My insurance covers dental, (up to $2,000 a year) and vision. I don't care if your socialized crap where you may or may not die in the waiting room is cheaper; I want to pay for my OWN premium insurance to get the best possible care.

i'm guessing that this premium insurance you talk of, won't be quite so cheap when you get older.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

I may pay more, but at least I have the freedom to choose. I also pay more for premium health care, PPO insurance is the most expensive. It covers anything from going to the chiropractor to seeing the best brain specialist in the country.

If I wanted that kind of health care in Canada I'd have to pay their outrageous taxes AND pay for services from a private clinic. No thanks.

You don't have the freedom to choose if you want good medical cover.You have to pay what an insurance company tells you to pay. As for what you pay in premiums it's more than I pay for the same or better cover. And the day you can't afford the premiums, your cover goes up in smoke. $2000 in dental, how much does that buy, a couple of fillings?

In the US I would of been denied medical cover because my treatment was still being tested. My Mother had to get my brother to drive to Mexico to buy the drugs she need for her diabetes. Now in the UK she's covered. My brother had to have an operation that a US hospital told him was not required. They told him chemo would cure it. They were lying to bump the bill. He flew to the UK and got the operation for free.

A system to care for you run by private companies or the Government? Neither is perfect but I trust the former far more.

I am biased because 20+ years ago my father had open heart surgery paid for by insurance. Then for a year he could not work and could not pay the premiums. The he developed a swelling of his aorta and was rushed to a local private hospital where he should of been immediately transferred by helicopter to the large major hospital in Long Beach. But the local hospital assumed he had medical cover and started carrying out tests on him. They knew what was wrong and knew they could not help him as they were not geared for it.

He died in that local private hospital 6 hours after arriving. His odds of surviving were less than 50% so my Mother could not sue them. But they sent her the bill anyway.

[GatorB]

Don't care about that video but I will educate the idiots that think this healthcare bill is socialized medicine. it's not it uses the CURRENT insurance system. So what is the problem? NOTHING. LOWER insurance rates wow such bad thing. If you own stock in insurance companies and drug companies you will make a killing. WOW really bad. stupid republicans most of them own stock in these medical companies whose stock price will increase DRAMATICALLY because of this bill. Bunch of retards for hating money.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by the Shemp

we pay more for cigs and booze and gas... thats not much of a sacrifice for a national health care system...

You also pay considerably more in income tax than us...

generally though, canadians look at society as a whole, while americans look at it as individuals and that is the major difference between our countries.

True, and we also want less government interference and a free market with competition.

Government workers have fewer incentives to do well. They have a set hourly schedule, cost-of-living raises, and few promotion opportunities. Compare this to private sector workers who can receive large raises, earn promotions, and work overtime. Government workers have iron-clad job security; private sector workers must always worry about keeping their jobs. There isn't a lot of flexibility built in to reward the best performing workers. Doctors who attract scores of patients and do the best work are paid the same as those that perform poorly and drive patients away. When you take that away, you discourage would-be students from putting themselves through the torture of medical school and residency, which overtime equals less doctors.

Also, something to keep in mind about health care in the United States. Even if you're uninsured it doesn't mean you can't receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don't have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.

Going back to the preference of less government interference; when the government controls things, politics always seep into the decision-making. Rules are put in place as to when doctors can perform certain expensive tests or when drugs can be given. Steps are taken to keep costs under control. Any risky or healthy lifestyle will raise the dollar cost to society which is why there are 'sin' taxes on things like alcohol, high-fat food, smoking, etc. This may sound like a good thing where you are from, but here in America it just gives the government too much power to control our lives, further eroding the very definition of America.

Also, health care equipment, drugs, and services end up being rationed by the government. In other words, politics, lifestyle of patients, and philosophical differences of those in power determines who gets what. You have politicians making health care decisions instead of medical or economics professions.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Don't care about that video but I will educate the idiots that think this healthcare bill is socialized medicine. it's not it uses the CURRENT insurance system. So what is the problem? NOTHING. LOWER insurance rates wow such bad thing. If you own stock in insurance companies and drug companies you will make a killing. WOW really bad. stupid republicans most of them own stock in these medical companies whose stock price will increase DRAMATICALLY because of this bill. Bunch of retards for hating money.

I'm talking about socialized medicine in general not the current health bill that passed. No one said otherwise, so maybe you need to go back and read.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

You think every doctor or specialist provides the same level of service? I guess you wouldn't know because you've never had the choice..

BTW, by freedom of choice, I meant I get to choose whether I even want to pay for health care. With socialized medicine you pay ridiculous costs in taxes regardless, and it's basically only as good as a basic health insurance plan here in the states.

You can opt out of the Canadian healthcare system... and if you do, the costs are cheap enough that a lower wage worker can afford the medical services.

Originally Posted by NetHorse

You keep saying the bill is $0, look at what you pay in taxes..

Overall tax wise, Canadians personal tax is equal or less than an Americans tax, until the highest tax brackets and/or corporate taxes. Your insurance cost is higher than the tax rate canadians pay for insurance, by a shit load. Then when canadians are done they don't have copays, or pill copays high enough to pay for the pill cost in canada without insurance.

Overall... they bring home a higher % of money than we do on average.

Originally Posted by NetHorse

Same choices? Can you go see a dermatologist of your choice TODAY? How about a chiropractor? If you needed brain surgery can you get 5,6, 7 opinions and then choose the best brain surgeon in the country?

Why wouldn't they they be able to do that? If anything they have more choices, they can seek doctors in other countries, when you can't unless you want to pay out of pocket.

Originally Posted by NetHorse

My insurance covers dental, (up to $2,000 a year) and vision. I don't care if your socialized crap where you may or may not die in the waiting room is cheaper; I want to pay for my OWN premium insurance to get the best possible care.

You can buy premium insurance in Canada too...


It sounds more like you don't understand what socialized healthcare really is...

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

Overall tax wise, Canadians personal tax is equal or less than an Americans tax, until the highest tax brackets and/or corporate taxes.

LOL. Your sales tax is always over 12% and all the way up to 15% in other provinces. We pay WAY less OVERALL taxes than you. You guys get raped in taxes.

Why wouldn't they they be able to do that? If anything they have more choices, they can seek doctors in other countries, when you can't unless you want to pay out of pocket.

That's my whole point, if you want freedom of choice or need prompt care from a specialist you have to pay out of your pocket. On-top of paying absurd taxes for a shitty government run health care program. I pay for my own health care and I don't have to pay anything but my copay, ($25 office visits, $50 emergency care) to ANY doctor or specialist I want to see. I'd rather choose to pay it then be raped in taxes and cost of living.

You can buy premium insurance in Canada too...


It sounds more like you don't understand what socialized healthcare really is...

Sigh..

[Paul Markham]

NetHorse, what happens when you are unable to pay or want to retire?

Do you rely on Medicare?

If you can afford the US system and don't get any problems they won't cover, it's fine so long as you pay the amounts the insurance companies demand. When you stop paying through a long illness, retirement, loss of employment or simply can't afford it. What happens then, does the insurance cover still apply because you've paid for it over the years?

Socialised medicine covers you because you've already paid for it.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

LOL. Your sales tax is always over 12% and all the way up to 15% in other provinces. We pay WAY less OVERALL taxes than you. You guys get raped in taxes.

First, I'm American... and I have worked and paid taxes in Canada.

That chart seems to be missing your insurance costs/copays being added in... After all the Canadians health care cost is in those numbers, yours should be too.

How is the average american %'s looking now?

Originally Posted by NetHorse

That's my whole point, if you want freedom of choice or need prompt care from a specialist you have to pay out of your pocket. On-top of paying absurd taxes for a shitty government run health care program. I pay for my own health care and I don't have to pay anything but my copay, ($25 office visits, $50 emergency care) to ANY doctor or specialist I want to see. I'd rather choose to pay it then be raped in taxes and cost of living.

You don't have to pay out of pocket in Canada.. they will fly you to America, and fully cover the costs.

In the reverse, if you needed to fly to India for special care, YOU, have to pay out of pocket.

Canadians don't have copays... that's the $0 cost when they leave vs. you getting a bill.

[gaffg]

quote 1:
I see what you're saying. But, I'd rather have the choice then be forced to pay outrageous taxes and have socialized medicine.

quote 2:
I may pay more, but at least I have the freedom to choose.

So are you paying more or not?
What choice would you have if you lost all your money and a job, would you still get coverage?

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

NetHorse, what happens when you are unable to pay or want to retire?

Do you rely on Medicare?

If you can afford the US system and don't get any problems they won't cover, it's fine so long as you pay the amounts the insurance companies demand. When you stop paying through a long illness, retirement, loss of employment or simply can't afford it. What happens then, does the insurance cover still apply because you've paid for it over the years?

Socialised medicine covers you because you've already paid for it.

Well, you're absolutely right Paul. I'm not saying the system is perfect, it's FAR from fair. There needs to be measures put in place to regulate insurance companies. However, I'm also not in favor of socialized medicine for the points I brought up in my above post.

(I also don't agree with the recently passed health care bill, as it's an absolute disaster and unconstitutional).

Originally Posted by TheDoc

First, I'm American... and I have worked and paid taxes in Canada.

That chart seems to be missing your insurance costs/copays being added in... After all the Canadians health care cost is in those numbers, yours should be too.

The chart I posted was in your comment to, "Canadians personal tax is equal or less than an Americans tax". Which is absolutely not true. I didn't post the chart to argue the total cost of health care in relevance to what you pay in taxes.

Like I said, we pay more in health care insurance premiums, but we get a different level of service that is offered in government run health care. We also have the freedom to choose.

You don't have to pay out of pocket in Canada.. they will fly you to America, and fully cover the costs.

What are you talking about? If you want a service done at a private clinic you will have to pay out of your pocket.

Canadians don't have copays... that's the $0 cost when they leave vs. you getting a bill.

It doesn't matter what the copay is, you're paying for the services with hefty taxes.

You can't opt of a ridiculously high sales tax. You can't opt out of ridiculously priced gasoline. You can't opt out of what you owe in income tax. That's what you pay whether you use the services or pay for your own premium health insurance.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

Well, you're absolutely right Paul. I'm not saying the system is perfect, it's FAR from fair. There needs to be measures put in place to regulate insurance companies. However, I'm also not in favor of socialized medicine for the points I brought up in my above post.

(I also don't agree with the recently passed health care bill, as it's an absolute disaster and unconstitutional).

Do you honestly see anyone regulating the insurance companies and forcing them to cover people and their families who for any reason have stopped paying? You could have an accident tomorrow, I hope not, that stopped you working, and a few months later find you're not covered and in need of a lot of medical care. You have no choice you mortgage your house.

As for the current US health bill I can't comment on. I'm debating a Socialised medicine over Capitalist medicine schemes.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Do you honestly see anyone regulating the insurance companies and forcing them to cover people and their families who for any reason have stopped paying? You could have an accident tomorrow, I hope not, that stopped you working, and a few months later find you're not covered and in need of a lot of medical care. You have no choice you mortgage your house.

Obviously you have to pay in either system, whether it's an increase in cost of living through heavy taxes or a fee for private health insurance. FYI, if you lose your job and can't pay for insurance there are govt run hospitals, and it's illegal to deny emergency medical care to anyone, (even for illegal immigrants). It's not like if you're uninsured and you get in an accident you have to fork over cash before they will treat you.

Now as far as regulation, well that's already happening.. It's just unfortunate Obama and the idiot democrats feel they need to 'overhaul' the system and make it more complicated than it needs to be.

In the current bill that just passed here are few of the regulations against insurance companies.

Insurance companies are barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick.

Lifetime coverage limits eliminated.

Reinsurance program to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64.

Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels.

Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

Obviously you have to pay in either system, whether it's an increase in cost of living through heavy taxes or a fee for private health insurance. FYI, if you lose your job and can't pay for insurance there are govt run hospitals, and it's illegal to deny emergency medical care to anyone, (even for illegal immigrants). It's not like if you're uninsured and you get in an accident you have to fork over cash before they will treat you.

If you lose your job and have a house and some savings what happens?

In the current bill that just passed here are few of the regulations against insurance companies.

Insurance companies are barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick.

Lifetime coverage limits eliminated.

Reinsurance program to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64.

Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels.

Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

This list come closer but not too close to what I enjoy with Socialized Medicine. So what's the problem?

What you have to do is wait and see what these measures cost then compare the cost between Social and Capitalist systems.

[Paul Markham]

When Americans compare the cost of the Social and Capitalist systems they are not comparing like for like.

Social = Full Medical care no questions asked from cradle to grave. You name it's usually paid for or heavily discounted. This provides a better system for preventing illnesses before the occur.

Capitalist = Partial system. At it's best it's pretty impressive. I know from personal experience. At it's worse it tells you to go home and die. I also know this from family experiences.

If the Capitalist system was to provide what we with Socialised Medicine enjoy (without thinking) the cost would be crippling for most Americans.

So compare like with like when debating.

[NetHorse]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

If you lose your job and have a house and some savings what happens?

Then you're out of luck, never once did I say the system was completely fair. It's a free market, that much is obvious, no one is going to give you handouts. Just like when you lose your job you may lose your house and the ability to feed your family.

However, how fair is it that in a socialized medical system treatment is "rationed" by politicians? It's likely we have different definitions of what is fair. Is it fair that the government gets to choose what they think will raise the cost of health care and tax the hell out of you on it? Is it fair that as health care costs skyrocket everyone is forced to pay a small fortune of their income in taxes? What if in 10-15 years the government is taxing alcohol, cigarettes and unhealthy foods to a point where it's unaffordable? What if they completely ban them? Are you going to sit back and rationalize it? America is NOT a socialist country, to me that's more unfair than having to pay for my own health insurance. I enjoy my freedoms without excessive government intervention.

This list come closer but not too close to what I enjoy with Socialized Medicine. So what's the problem?

There is no problem Mark, I'm pointing out that regulations can be mandated in a free market without giving complete control to the government.

What you have to do is wait and see what these measures cost then compare the cost between Social and Capitalist systems.

There is NO doubt that a premium health insurance plan here costs more. Our doctors aren't government workers, they don't work for a fixed fee. Never said it was cheaper, however, I still wouldn't trade it for a government run health care system.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Social = Full Medical care no questions asked from cradle to grave. You name it's usually paid for or heavily discounted. This provides a better system for preventing illnesses before the occur.

Really? No questions asked? So when you're having bad headaches you can demand they give you an MRI? Or would they send you home with an aspirin until it got to the point where it was life threatening. There is no free ticket in this world, the government can't offer full health care without rationing to keep costs down. I'm glad to hear you had good experiences, as have I and my family. You might hear horror stories both ways, but that doesn't really tell the entire truth now does it?

If the Capitalist system was to provide what we with Socialised Medicine enjoy (without thinking) the cost would be crippling for most Americans.

In my opinion, it's the opposite. If the socialist system where to provide all the freedoms and perks of private premium health care your system would fail within a decade. Just because the poor, impoverished and unemployed jolt the statistics in your favor doesn't mean it's a superior system. It just means you live in a socialist country that "spreads the wealth".

[Paul Markham]

Seriously NetHorse you have no idea how the National Health scheme is run. Experience both systems and then comment.

I insisted on a cat scan when I had a persistent sore throat and I got one. Yes you can insist on a scan if you feel it's necessary.

Doctors in the EU earn a very very good wage, don't be fooled by right wing propaganda. Common sense should tell you no one goes through the years of training it takes to to become a doctor for the sale wage as a factory worker. That comment alone shows how little you understand of the real situation.

[kane]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

However, how fair is it that in a socialized medical system treatment is "rationed" by politicians? It's likely we have different definitions of what is fair. Is it fair that the government gets to choose what they think will raise the cost of health care and tax the hell out of you on it? Is it fair that as health care costs skyrocket everyone is forced to pay a small fortune of their income in taxes? What if in 10-15 years the government is taxing alcohol, cigarettes and unhealthy foods to a point where it's unaffordable? What if they completely ban them? Are you going to sit back and rationalize it? America is NOT a socialist country, to me that's more unfair than having to pay for my own health insurance. I enjoy my freedoms without excessive government intervention.

So in this non-socialist country did you receive a free high school education? Do you drive on the roads? If you need help do you pick up the phone and dial 911? Do you worry daily about invasion from other countries? These are all things that most people could not afford on their own, but we all benefit from. Here is another little nugget. The top 25% of wage earners in this country pay 90% of the taxes. That means the rich pay for most of these programs. The rich paid for your eduction (and that of your kids if you have them and they go to public school). The rich pay for your roads, the police, fire and ambulance that serve you in times of need and the military that keeps you safe. Not to mention many other thing that I'm sure most of us don't even realize. That sounds kind of umm. . . err. . . socialist to me.

I'm not defending the current health care bill. I think it is flawed and will eventually get very bloated, corrupt and expensive, but this country is far from non-socialist and we do plenty of spreading the wealth.

Really? No questions asked? So when you're having bad headaches you can demand they give you an MRI? Or would they send you home with an aspirin until it got to the point where it was life threatening. There is no free ticket in this world, the government can't offer full health care without rationing to keep costs down. I'm glad to hear you had good experiences, as have I and my family. You might hear horror stories both ways, but that doesn't really tell the entire truth now does it?

Walk into your regular family doctor with a headache and demand an MRI. First, the doctor will probably try to tell you that you don't need one unless you are showing signs of something very bad. If you insist enough the doctor may relent. Now try talking your insurance company into paying for it. They will tell you to pack sand. They will want to see blood work and other typical treatments that would rule out most everything else before they plunk down the money for an MRI.

Health care in the US is already rationed and controlled by insurance companies. I know several people who live in Canada and when I hear them talk about the system up there it really doesn't sound much different than what we have here. They wait for stuff, so do we. Sometimes the service sucks, same here. Sometimes it works perfectly. Same here.

I happen to feel we are screwed no matter what. We can either do nothing and watch the cost of health care continue to go up and watch it slowly bankrupt the middle class in this country or we can try to reform it. With reform comes expense. There are millions of people without health insurance in this country and if they get treatment someone ends up paying for it. So we can either pay to give them insurance, pay for their treatment after they have gotten it, or we can force ER's and urgent care centers to turn them away. I'm not so sure I would feel very good about myself if I drove by a hospital and saw people dying in the parking lot because they had no money or insurance.


The only true way to fix it is to tear the entire system down and start from scratch and that won't be happening any time soon.

[Nysus]

Re: Closed clinic

People in Canada generally know to look up open hours of the walk-in clinics that exist.


Re: Him going to hospital and taking a ticket.

The girl at the front desk first asked if it was urgent. The reason people have to have long waits sometimes is well, if you're not currently dying, or someone else has more of a likelihood of dying, then well, they're going to get the attention of nurses and doctors first - so suck it up / be patient. And if that person dying was you, you'd be bumped ahead of the line.

Matt

[tranza]

20 min? no patience..

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by NetHorse

The chart I posted was in your comment to, "Canadians personal tax is equal or less than an Americans tax". Which is absolutely not true. I didn't post the chart to argue the total cost of health care in relevance to what you pay in taxes.

The federal tax rates for Canadians vs. Americans, up to the highest tax brackets is damn near equal...at some levels, it's less... (up to this year) and I did say they do pay higher overall with gas, etc tax added in - however they get yearly rebates that you don't get.

Thing is... to make this really "equal" you need to add in American medical costs. After all, ours is a tax as well... it's just on a different set of books.


Fact is... you pay more and you don't like it.

Originally Posted by NetHorse

Like I said, we pay more in health care insurance premiums, but we get a different level of service that is offered in government run health care. We also have the freedom to choose.

You have the same level of service... you have the same choices, if not more in Canada. You're delusional if you think you have 'better' services than they do.

Originally Posted by NetHorse

What are you talking about? If you want a service done at a private clinic you will have to pay out of your pocket.

Like YOU, you pay EXTRA for services to allow you to go to any doctor you want, etc... just like Canadians can pay more. You don't have anything 'extra or special' that they don't.

Originally Posted by NetHorse

It doesn't matter what the copay is, you're paying for the services with hefty taxes.

And you pay an extremely higher yearly fee for insurance and you pay a copay that pays for the entire pills on the spot and you pay for it insurance... great way to spend money!

Originally Posted by NetHorse

You can't opt of a ridiculously high sales tax. You can't opt out of ridiculously priced gasoline. You can't opt out of what you owe in income tax. That's what you pay whether you use the services or pay for your own premium health insurance.

Other than you can leave Canada, and not pay taxes anymore, make millions bring it back, and pay no taxes.

You can't do any of that in America, they take either way... that's your big choices working for you!