ASW

how is everbody doing today i hope all is well

Amputate Your Head

Congrats on your first post.

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Roald

I think you are too much talking about fb and Twitter, point is there is sooooo much to do on the Internet right now besides porn. So not only social networking.

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Shap

Wow Seriously? Here are two examples.

#1 I can name 100 pornstars I can talk to right now on Twitter. I can't even do that on Twistys. That is direct competition. Someone who loves Bree Olson may get more from interacting on Twitter than watching her on Twistys.

#2 7 years ago there wasn't as much to do online. Now there are numerous ways people spend their time online. If we are one form of online entertainment we are competing with other forms of online entertainment and with so many of them exploding and reaching new levels of traffic and adaptation that has to mean somewhere we are losing out to them.

Shap

Good post I agree with almost all of it. The one thing I disagree with is I don't feel we ever had a shake down. I think the guys who made big money early left. They didn't get shook down in most cases they hit a level of $$$ they were happy with left and moved on to bigger things. A lot of those guys were REALLY smart and it's a shame they aren't around today. The guys who came in after them have been able to survive until the last 18 months. Now the shakedown is going to start happening and happening more than ever. In a year from now I think the list of WHERE ARE THEY NOW programs/sites/webmasters will be much bigger than it is today. Probably double.

Shap

ABSOLUTELY 10000%. I agree.

BFT3K

I agree with you on the level that individual porn models have a fan base, and if they have a brain in their head, and at least SOME ambition, they can use social networks to promote their own sites, and even more lucrative these days - their own webcam-related enterprises.

It is not nearly that easy to get popular porn girls to bend over backwards to promote your site however, simply because they are one of the models. What's in it for them?

I've worked with hundreds of porn girls, as I know you have as well. No offense, but the bulk of them are NOT ambitious, and are NOT reliable AT ALL! The ones who are, are the ones who WILL promote THEMSELVES, for their own financial gain.

Still doesn't help a male owner of a site network too much, unless you are running their solo site, and/or webcam enterprise.

Shap

How do you innovate if you copied your way to success? That's kinda my point. There is x% that can't innovate because they have no clue. Then we have x% who don't innovate because they are fat (money wise) and lazy without a reason to do so. That covers almost all of us myself included.

Shap

Btw Program3 also happens to be the company that really took paysites to a whole new level many many years ago.

Roald

Check the comments here, that's him right:
http://www.lukeisback.com/?p=10196

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BFT3K

This is a brilliant site. It is to webcam sites what tubes are to porn sites.

http://www.myfreecams.com/

I have no affiliation, and the reason I am aware of it is because the URL was posted here on GFY a number of times now.

You can communicate directly with the models, and ask them to do whatever you want, in real time.

It is not FB, but I suppose it is a social network of some sort.

A genius business model, and no affiliate program at all.

Addictive, dirty, and fun.

Will likely serve as the new webcam business model for the next generation of webcam sites. Not sure how it helps me in any way, but certainly interesting on many levels.

Easy, innovative, assorted models, direct communication, live sex... brilliant!

Rico

LOL...

Tell me about it!

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Relentless

Ask yourself WHY people pay for porn even though porn is available for free.

I have actually asked 1000s of surfers that question and I know TheBestPorn asked it as well of their users. The results come back in four very simple statements, three about equally often and one that comes back more often than all of the others combined:

1) If I don't buy porn, people will stop making quality porn and Ill be stuck watching old dvd crap with nothing new to enjoy.

2) I don't feel right stealing... and pirating videos is stealing.

3) If I become a member of a good porn site they listen to my feedback and I have some say in what kind of porn gets made. I love being able to suggest a specific model or a story for them to create etc...

and #4 which gets said more than the other three replies combined....

4) I don't TRUST tube sites and torrents. I don't want to get my PC infected by a virus or have a free site abuse my credit card or get spam mail and other annoying crap from free sites so id rather just pay my 30 bucks and enjoy some quality porn without all the headaches.


Free porn does not kill the porn industry. Scam sites and aggressive billing does not kill the porn industry. The COMBINATION of aggressive billing by paysites and free porn being available is what is killing the industry. When a customer is just as likely to get card banged, spam emailed, virus or malware infected etc from a site he paid 30 to join as one that posts content for free... he becomes a permanent free site user instead.

Give customers a quality user experience and an ethical sales pitch without scamming them... It really is that simple.

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Due

I think the industry took a bad turn when the industry stopped evolving.

I haven't seen any fresh a cool ideas in porn for years. The adult business used to lead the way, now it copies the mainstream.

People will pay for an experience, the market of paying 39.95 / month for access to 2500 videos getting 3 updates / day is dying, that's why cross sales became so popular.

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The Porn Nerd

Interesting thread. As someone who literally - literally now - started with ZERO I am one of "those" who got into this business for that very reason: I had zero and there are very few opportunities out there to be successful starting with zero money yet limitless 'sweat equity'.

So I believe in hard work, new guys getting into the business, not having limitations, being a success when almost everyone else is hurting or leaving or predicting doom. Perhaps it's my personality, or the fact that I've been a success - MY definition of success, mind you (the only def that counts, to me) - in every single thing I've ever done, ever. Of course, the "success" of which I gloat only came after years of struggle, disappointment, failure and learning.

So I knew this wouldn't be an 'easy' gig but could, potentially, pay off big time (I want to post silly GFY threads from my hot tub, too, like Mr. Frisky did earlier today). Do I lament not getting into porn back in '01, '02, '03? You betcha - but I simply cannot get my damn time machine to work properly so fuck it. LOL

The reason I quoted Robbie here - instead of the other 1/2 dozen or so excellent points made by others - is that what he wrote is, in my opinion, a major reason I "made it" (so far): modeling. I didn't try to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. (Well okay, when I knew nada back in '07 I did, but everyone does that at first.) Six months in I knew I'd better start 'copying', as Robbie puts it, others' success, and start doing what THEY were doing. I also looked at sites that were NOT successful so I could NOT do what they were doing. LOL

But then I found what I think is CRUCIAL to anyone's success, especially these days: a twist. Something just a wee differant than all the other stuff people see when they surf porn. Maybe it's a "so crappy it stands out" tour design, or maybe a funny/sexy video where you laugh first then get turned on. Maybe it's a little pervert in a green trenchcoat someone can instantly recognize as a 'brand'. Who knows? Keep trying til something clicks.

So what I'm saying here is this: follow the leaders...up to a point. Then, when you've learned just enough to be dangerous, try throwing in a little 'twist', something unique to YOU/your sites that will make you stand out a little. It will go a long way. be your own Leader, for your own World.

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Roald

Actually Leo does have some affiliates ;)))

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dyna mo

yup. lolz, he's a good guy from what i gathered that night but he's made y'all the poster boy in his mind for what's wrong in the biz today.

Shap

Absolutely. The owner of that site is really smart. He's been successful for many years and continues to operate quietly and effectively.

dyna mo

i think what you are saying is spot-on and congrats to your success- so far.

kristin

One of the largest sites out there. That man can burn some bandwidth.

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UFGators2007

That's exactly RIGHT. FREE SHIT! The consumer and their expectations have changed.

I don't buy the rhetoric about LEADERS not having insight into what makes them successful. Beleive me, successful or not, leaders understand their strengths and weaknesses much better than the affiliate because they have the site analytics and customer data that we don't.

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Shap

I agree.

One guy I think does a good job at staying hungry and trying to evolve is Andreas from Naughty America.

BFT3K

I would add their link to my membership area in a heartbeat if I can become an affiliate.

I would add them to all of my blogs, and create new blogs for them as well.

Hit me up if you know how to become an affiliate - I would love to be onboard...

support (at) PeckerPass.com

Thanks!

Shap

A note to others. Saying or Quoting the people that say free shit or tubes really doesn't do much for your rep. You are best to just STFU and move on to the next thread.

DateDoc

That does not make sense to me as you are saying the business WAS too easy to get into and it WAS easy to make money. Now that the economy has gone south these people are no longer making money and do not know what to do. This SHOULD make them look elsewhere for work which would be a POSITIVE thing for those the business as a whole.

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UFGators2007

I'm not here for a 'Rep', and I'm not selling anything. I'm here to provide a point of view, like evryone else. And Free content has indeed changed the game.That's what a discussion board is for ... so take your own advice/acronym.

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Shap

So you are here to waste time, procrastinate and come up with reasons why you aren't making more. Right?

Roald

Well at least we were mentioned again ;)

If he wants you as an affiliate he will hit you up, sorry!

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dyna mo

is this directed at me?

smutnut

I like to watch myself masturbate in the mirror and tell myself how great I am!

Shap

Nope. To the one line complainers

Shap

HOT! Film it and upload it to GayTube. We'll fuzzy out your face if you like

dyna mo

right on, i misunderstood the comment eh

Semi-Retired-Dave

You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to know that Tube Sites has in fact hurt the industry. Everyone that knows me asks me how I'm still in Business with all the Free Shit that goes around. I ask people what their favorite Porn sites are and they always give me Free Tube Domains. It's a no brainer. You can get Porn for free and you can find just about anything you want with a little bit of Surfing, and most surfers do just that.

Now, I'm not saying the business has gone away. I've been in this game since 95' I've seen it all. People still buy porn, Our AVS sites still do some decent numbers, we do credit card processing, I see what people pay for, they are definitely paying!!!

This week we are seeing the highest numbers ever for our new Cams Site that's been up and running for about a year now. That tells me something, people are still willing to whip out their credit cards. BUT!!!. It's nothing like it used to be and if anyone is telling you they are making the same amount they used to or more from back in the day, they are lying.

Keep your overhead low, stay in business and when all the Tube sites fade away, you will be at the right place at the right time.

Content theft is straight out Crime, and these tube sites killed our industry with our own content. It's ridicules.

I'm a big believer on keeping your existing members happy. Always update your content area, give them more then what they expect. Spend the same amount time and money on your existing members as you do finding new members.

Stay positive!

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smutnut

roly

exactly, and if the reason for the decline is people aren't looking at porn anymore but using social networking, why is there 5 tubes sites in the webs top 100 busiest sites.

anyone that denies the major reason for the decline in sales is the fact that no one needs to buy porn anymore because they can now get it for free is either deluded or is onvolved with tube sites in some way.

fatfoo

Having money allows more valuable options.

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Shap

I agree. Part of my original point if we had all been better businessmen we would have never let that happen. I'm just as guilty.

The Gay market is a really interesting example. The large gay studios are suing the shit out of tube sites. And they are having relatively good success at keeping their content off it. The general feeling amongst Gay Tube sites is you don't want to fuck with the Gay Studios. As a result our numbers on GayTube are SICK! As an example we put up one video of a site and got 65+ signups on the first day to that site. I believe we got 45 on the second day. And I'm not talking free signups either.

trevesty

Yes. That's what we're doing with Pornoob, or attempting to anyway. We'll see how it takes off.

BestXXXPorn

Shap,

I couldn't agree more with your posts in this thread...

I come from mainstream and when choosing a new market to go into I decided to take a serious look at the adult industry. I had always heard it was way ahead of every other industry and blah blah blah...

When I started to take a closer look I realized while the adult industry knows how to generate traffic and skim probably better than most other markets it has fallen WAY behind in terms of user experience. Virtually every pay site is nothing more than a glorified gallery based off of one of a few different frameworks. I don't know of any major players in mainstream that use a prebuilt framework...

The more I learn of the average adult site the more it becomes apparent that there are a LOT of companies lacking knowledge... For example, how many companies do A/B testing? That simple fact alone speaks LEAGUES about this industry.

That being said I decided to dive into the adult market. I've been in development for over a year now and plan to launch on 10.10.10... When completed I will have put about $250k in development into this site (if I were billing). I'm fortunate enough to be a developer with a lot of experience so it's a sweat equity only investment (minus basic hosting costs, etc...) for me.

The face of the adult game is changing. The industry is "growing up" in my opinion and it's got a few more years before it settles down. I'm hoping to hit post summer slump with my launch date and ride the curve up to get things kicked off, positioning myself to be a major player within the next few years.

IMO the barrier of entry remains the same however the results from entering the market on the low end will take a massive hit. You're going to need to breach the barrier at a higher point if you want to stick around and be very profitable.

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UFGators2007

Boy, you assume a lot. I'm providing an alternate point of view (to yours) which is that the performance of some businesses is depend on consumer behavior/ expectations. Take the troubles of adult print magazine industry. They have had to adapt to consumer behavior and you can't say that these leaders don't understand what made them successful.

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will76

they can get waay more out of a social networking site then they can from a dating site, but I don't agree vs a porn site. There is no nudity on facebook, myspace. There is no nudity on those sites.

I think social networking sites have cut into dating sites, mainly because most of the adult dating sites don't even have real people on them in the first place. Sure you can hook up on social networking sites, but I don't see it as a substitute to porn.

I see you and a few other people here think social networking sites are killing porn. Your "proof" is based on the amount of time that younger people are spending on social networking sites. While it is a fact that this younger generation does spend a lot of time on these sites, it doesn't mean they gave up porn time for social networking. Perhaps they watch TV less, or play less video games. Porn is NOT entertainment IMO. It is not in the same category as watching movies, playing games, hanging out with friends etc. Porn is something you do when you get horny. You don't get less horny just because you spending a lot of time on facebook, and there is nothing to jerk off to on facebook.

What seems more plausible, there is less people buying porn now because:
1. They are maxed out on their credit cards.
2. Because they get it for free on xyz tube site.
3. Because they are too busy chatting with friends on facebook.

Shap's argument that TGP sites started tanking before tube sites came out. 1 I don't agree, but even if they did, the top 5 tube sites today get more traffic than all of the tgp sites combined got 5 years ago. If people were so busy on social networking sites and that killed porn then why is there so many porn tube sites in the top 100 sites in the world??? Tube sites are 100x more popular than tgps. What happened was tube sites drained all of the tgp sites AND a lot of the pic and video sites, and pooled all of that into a handfull of top ranked tube sites.

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will76

i didn't know it was interesting that I wasn't an ass kisser and that I speak my mind. I am 100% exactly the same way in person. If people like honestly and good feedback, then they should like me. A lot of people prefer to have some one agree with them vs disagree with them and give them another perspective or hell possibly even the correct answer. I also think it is easy to miss understand people online because of the lack of facial expressions and tone of voice.

I don't need to toot my own horn, but I am pretty knowledgeable and have done really well for myself. I only get involved in subjects that I know really well, unlike a lot of other people who like to put their 2 cents in everything.

I should be making a show before the end of the year, if so i'll take you up on that offer for a drink.

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BestXXXPorn

There's not a single user I know of that LIKES TGPs... maybe to look at a page but the endless skimming/new windows gets fucking OLD. Nobody likes that crap it's just a way to push junk traffic along and artificially bounce traffic back and forth between sites and/or traffic resellers... They're a joke, seriously... Good for pushing link juice if you know what you're doing but as far as for users... sure some of the traffic will convert but they're just feeder sites. The user experience is garbage.

TGPs started tanking because people got tired of the crap. Additional avenues to look at hot naked chicks opened up and surfers tried to avoid the TGPs. Tubes happened along just as TGPs were taking a dive and I'm sure accelerated this rate; not only is it MOVING pictures but there's also less skimming, more of staying on the same site, and a better user experience.

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Amputate Your Head

There's a heavy Bromance heating up in here too...

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will76

I can tell you there was a good bit of people that I remember talking to back in 2003/04 that was telling me " damn, i should have saved some of my money while it lasted" etc. There were a lot of people who made it, blew it, and then it was gone and they were out.

I guess today's big guys, were at least smart enough to not blow it all and reinvested into their own membership sites and other revenue generating ventures that have been dropping like a rock the last couple years. There is two ways you make money in this industry and in any really: you cheat or your bust your ass. Either way you have to be good at what you do, it is just a lot easier to make a lot of money if you are a good cheater vs being a good business person.
The "cheater" bangs credit cards, and installs spyware on people's pcs to make 100's of signups. The good business man has to be better than his competition, be innovative, and has to bust his ass working hard.

The good business men, who have continued to work hard, innovative, and beat the competition are doing fine today. They may be making less than they did in the past but they are still moving right along.

The good business men, who made "ok" money in the past because they took the weekends off, didn't always have the best ideas, etc... they are hurting now and in trouble.

I think the big guys you referring to who are the people who resorted to cheating when the dumb easy money was gone. They continue to try to find the easy way to make money. For example, instead of offering a great product and developing your own traffic, they just make a couple deals and buy cross sales. If cross sales go away then they fucked until they try to find another easy way to make money. Those people will run out of luck sooner or later, if that isn't happening already. I hope the ones who are actually doing illegal shit end up in jail. I could have made 10x more money if I went the shitty route, but I rather be able to sleep at night and know my ass wont be in jail.

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The Porn Nerd

Thank you - and to your continued success!

Just looked at my stats for Feb-April (3 months).

Traffic is up 32%
Sales network-wide are remarkably stable, within 5 + or - sales weekly (odd)
Some sites UP in sales, some sites DOWN in sales
Monthly Rebills: down 22%
(Rebill pattern getting worse, too: ppl join, rebill once maybe twice instead of four or five times, cancel, rejoin, repeat; noticing more and more familiar names on the sign-ups)
3 Month Rebills (biggest discount) UP 19%

So this is good AND bad. LOL So the tide MUST turn, in either direction, relatively soon because this kind of balancing act can't last forever.

Summer's coming, 50+ new affiliates in the past month alone, so a change is a-gonna come. Wonder if it will be good or bad?

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Ravage

I'll agree with that to an extent, but you may have overlooked the impact social networking can/has done.

Think about word of mouth between friends, posting "Check this out" with links on their walls to tube sites, in private messages, IM's, etc. It has grown a very large community of savvy free porn surfers. Its taught purchasers of porn sites how to now get it for free, etc.

In addition to that, we have to constantly think about today's 'new credit' people. This years 18-year-olds, getting their first credit cards. Much more internet/computer savvy than 10-years ago. What does it take to get these 'new credit' students to plunk down their CC digits. What are they experiencing in 'Today's Web' that wasn't there 10-years ago, etc

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Robbie

Yep, porn will always be VERY popular. Social networking sites and other forms of entertainment are very popular as well. But you're right. Porn sites have more traffic than ever. Problem is...it's ALL on the tubes and torrents giving away entire members areas.

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AcidMax

Kind of a cop-out imho. Had you asked surfers what their favorite site was 5 or more years ago, it probably would have been the hun, al4a, etc. AVS sites, while not entirely free, used Free Sites and such to support them, Free is definitely nothing new, tubes are just the new version, it takes ingenuity to make it all work.

I think you are just seeing what increased bandwidth speeds and the need for instant gratification are creating. Why would you go to a porn site and look at thousands of shitty photo sets when you can get real time video chat on a cams site? I don't think tubes are necessarily the cause, but just the simple fact people have more bandwidth, why not watch a movie?

I don't think TUBE sites will ever go away, not with the popularity of YouTube etc., but you will see them fade away just as you did with AVS's, TGP's etc. The big ones stay, the small ones wither away. I definitely do not condone stealing content, I hate it with a passion, but there is a way to make money with tubes if done properly. Same thing with any other website, people just need to stop thinking like its 1999. This whole business like any other business is cyclical.

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