DamianJ

Fiddy people thinking an IP address is a person

I'd rather have neither. Neither work. When France introduced 3 strikes, piracy increased. Citation: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/P...kes-Law-107320

I don't think it is right to have the MPAA demand your bandwidth is throttled because *they* say so.

I don't think having people that don't understand you can hack secure wifi connection in 2 hours or spoof an IP listening to appeals is good.

I think it's a huge waste of time and money and will achieve nothing.

There are no stats, I know I could hack yours in 2 hours though. So if I wanted to fuck your shit up, what's to stop me?

How about the ISPs tell the RIAA and MPAA to fuck off?

How about they realise this 'fight' against piracy has achieved the same as the war on drugs. Nothing. More drug use. More piracy.

Go after the uploaders, not the downloaders.

kane

Do we know for sure that this is in response to this law? No we don't. Piracy has increased no matter what. The MPAA and RIAA have sued thousands of people and some of those cases have made big headlines and yet piracy increases. I don't think it is out of spite, I think people just assume they won't get caught, or they don't pay attention to the news and even know that these guys are going after pirates.

Again, I don't know the logistics, but it seems fair to me that if you get multiple warnings and are still doing it, throttling your bandwidth is reasonable.

well, I personally don't have WiFi. But aside from me as you say don't know the hard and fast numbers but do you really, honestly, think there are large numbers of people out there hacking into WiFi connections so they can download a copy of Transformers 3? They could go to Starbucks or McDonalds or maybe even the library and use their WiFi to do the same thing without having to hack into it.

I feel that there are a lot of dumb people out there who might not know that downloading a movie or music is illegal, but those who are smart enough to hack into a WiFi connection know they are breaking the law. If they are going to go to that kind of trouble they are likely looking to steal my identity or access my bank accounts. They probably aren't doing it so they can download the new Britney Spears record.

I can see a situation where a guy is sitting in his house and can access a neighbor's WiFi and hacks into it (or just uses it if it is unsecured) to download, but I still think those cases are few and far between.



Maybe the MPAA played hardball. They say to Comcast: "If you don't work with us on this, we won't give you any of our services for your subscribers and they will leave your ass and flock to someone who will."

I wasn't there. I don't know what the agreement between them is, but I would assume the ISPs are getting something in return.

By default many downloaders are also uploaders. When you download via torrent you are also sharing the file you are downloading. I would guess many people leave those files open to seed when they are done as well.

You want to go after uploaders, but so far you have shot down every technique potentially used to do so. How do you propose they do this?

DamianJ

Right, so whatever is being done isn't working. So, something else needs to be done. Cool. Agreement.

Not without proof and judicial process. None of which are on the table here.

So, the Macdonalds or the library or Starbucks would get throttled. Brilliant!

Doesn't matter how many people ARE doing it. It is possible. It is, in fact, facile. With free tools online. As is spoofing and IP.

Therefore, there will *always* be reasonable doubt. And no actual proof. Always.

You only need one case for it to stand up in court though, don't you.

Read up on it before coming to an opinion. The ISPs fought tooth and nail to NOT do this.

Yes, yes technically on their shitty little upstreams. I think you knew I meant the active groups that grab the content and upload it in the first place. The initial seeders. There really aren't very many hugely active.

They use the *law* to find *proof* that someone is wholesale stealing and uploading pirated content. They get an IP address > physical address > they go there > they have a warrant and seize all computer equipment > they search the hard drives > they find *proof* a crime has happened > the perp is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

You know, like with other crimes. Research, evidence, judge jury, prosecution. That seems to work for other things...

All this is moot really anyway. If it was 6 years ago, maybe. But use of torrents for wares is so old now. The file lockers and illegal tubes are the problem. Not torrents. I bet you a gajamillion dollar pounds that if there was a magic wand and torrents vanished overnight sales of porn would not be altered one jot.

Hentaikid

Question, has anyone sued or been sued over branding stolen images? It's something that happens a lot and I would imagine it's actionable, i.e. someone takes your photo and pastes his url over it... any precedent?

gmr324

Can't argue with hard evidence. Would be interesting to see how many uploaders go to the trouble to spoof their IP. As with anything else, need to set a precedent and make an example of someone.

I heard of someone in Boston two months ago who received a letter from Comcast threatening to terminate his service. Turns out they detected an unusual amount of bandwidth usage due to his teenage son downloading tons of bootleg movies. His son only downloads and doesn't upload any.

Barry-xlovecam

Hear ye, hear ye the ISP court is now in session, Judge Former Customer Service Flunky will now hear your case ... (Do I really have to explain why this is a lame proposal?)

milo99

People have been downloading porn since the glory days. This is nothing new and it never effected the business. You actually need to be a bit of an advanced surfer to use Bit Torrent sites etc. These are the kind of people that would probably never get you a sign up anyway. When you have a newbie that has access to sites like Xham... (not even gonna put these low lifes full name here) giving away hour long movies this is your real problem. These fuckers get about 10 million hits a day now. Remember the porn business was fine before the advent of the Tube. So Chad Hurley, Steve Chen, and Jawed Karim GO FUCK YOURSELF!

kane

My point wasn't to push the blame onto them it was to simply point out that if you wanted to use someone else's WiFi for illegal downloading there are a lot easier ways to do so than to hack into someone's.

You are right on all of these accounts. So again, I ask, which would you rather have? Would you rather the ISP contact you and tell you they suspect that you are illegally downloading and if you are not you can contact them and hope that they can help you find out it you have been hacked etc or would you rather nobody says anything, they come into your house, seize your computers and you get to explain in court how it wasn't you and you must have been hacked?

To me it seems a little more sensible to try to deal with the problem before lawyers get involved than to just suddenly one day be accused of a crime and forced to defend yourself in court.



I'll look more into it. I assumed they didn't just go happily along with it, there must have been some serious pressure put on the.



Sure, in a perfect world these would be the people that would be best to go after. I remember a while back when the new Guns N Roses album was about to come out and it leaked online. Somehow they tracked down the guy who was the initial leak and he got in some serious trouble. The same thing happened with the Wolverine movie. It leaked online before it was in theaters. They tracked down the guy who leaked it and reamed him. Of course, that didn't stop anyone, but at least they faced consequences for their actions.



In a perfect world I would agree with you. I go back to my earlier statement above. If you are truly innocent and are a victim of hacking would you rather get a warning that you are suspected of pirating so you can contact your ISP and work with them to find out what is happening and stop it or would you rather be sitting in your living room watching TV one afternoon and have the police show up to seize your stuff and have to explain to them that it wasn't you?

Neither option is good, but to me it is the difference between being warned that you might get punched and just getting kicked in the balls for no reason.

I agree. It might dip down for a short time, but there will always be some other way and some other system. The cat is out of the bag now. To me this is why this ISP system might help to some degree. You can go after all the uploaders and seeders in the world. You can go after the torrent sites all day long, in the end if there is a demand there will be a supply, just like drugs. The drug war is a complete and utter failure. The only part of the drug war that has had any success at all is the early education programs that helps inform people and keep them from using drugs in the first place. Maybe informing people and letting them know that what they are doing is wrong and could cost them down the road will ultimately help curb the demand.

Robbie

kane you made some very good and thoughtful posts on this.
Unfortunately you are arguing with 2 guys who will justify that nobody should ever do anything to try and stop piracy. The only hope you have is to somehow "adapt" to this new "business model".

In other words get out of the porn business.
That's what they would have you believe anyway. We should all be trying to figure out how to monetize worthless freeloader traffic (that we don't have anyway because it's all at the pirate sites...oh wait, I forgot...traffic junky will SELL the traffic they draw from your own stolen content right back to you!), or try to sell dating, cams, or dildos with your content.

Just walk past the dollars and pick up pennies because 2 guys who have never done anything in our business say so.

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-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

mynameisjim

Discriminating against race, religion, country of origin, etc, is illigal in almost every state and county. That's a totally different thing.

All this requires is the ISP to change their TOS. Nobody has a legal right to be granted internet access. It's a private contract between a company and an individual.

The same way nobody has a legal right to cable television. If comcast decides they don't like you as a customer, they can tell you to fuck off for whatever reason as long as the policy is consistent among all customers. Suspected file shareres are not a protected group like race, religion, or sexual orientation.

All this legal talk is silly and pointless. Companies put all kinds of stuff in their TOS and this 100% with what is in line with what companies already do.

For those arguing against it, check your credit card contracts and pretty much any other contract you have and it will say they can deny you service for any reason they want. I already posted a pretty common example. Here is another from ATT, so they can already do it legally without changing their TOS

Notice it says they can terminate your account if they "believe" you are doing something illegal. No proof is needed.

I'm not saying it's right, but all this talk about due process and legal proceedings is silly and pointless.

It's the same way if you guys own an adult site. If you don't like a customer for whatever reason, you can cancel his membership, give back his money, and block him from ever joining again. You don't need legal proof he did anything wrong and the customer has no legal recourse as long as you credit him back his money.

CCbill blocks customers it "suspects" of fraud despite not having legal proof and there is nothing wrong with that.

Look, this stuff goes on all the time.

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gideongallery

seriously what exactly about the statement
if you respect fair use you don't ever have a problem with piracy do you not understand

you want to take down both fair use (by reclassifying legitimate fair use as not really fair) and piracy at the same time

the doc argues you should simply market to piracy sources and collect whatever crumbs can be salvaged.

neither one of is adapting to the new marketplace, that the point

to put it simply

your actions are equal to the mpaa complaining to congress that the VCR will kill the industry

the docs is the equivalent of buying ads for theatre movies on television

neither is equal to the real solution of putting your shit on the cassettes and selling it to the VCR owners.

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“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak

gideongallery

but all i need to do to accuse you of discrimination is that i have to be a visible minority

eharmony didn't deny services to gay and lesbians because of a bias they did it purely on a financial basis. If they just used the same 29 points of compatibility that worked for straight people it would not work for a complete different demographic.

if you dumped my account for one of your "reasons" the first thing i would claim is that you did it because of my ethnicity and you were just using that reason as cover

and i would be perfectly within my right to do so

oh and BTW the UN just ruled that disconnecting a person from the internet is a violation of human rights so your argument doesn't have anywhere close to the merits you think it does.

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“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak

gideongallery

so were are completely ignoring the principle of innocent until proven guilty
what exactly about the chain of evidence that DJ presented to you do you not understand








except the real choice is between getting fucked over both ways
and the copyright holders respecting rights like presumption of innocents

having to actually make their case to get the info of the persons address BEFORE they bust down any doors

Having prove that the seizure of the equipment is justified BEFORE they seize anything

and then having to prove that their collected evidence actually proves the person is guilty BEFORE they apply penalties.

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“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak

mynameisjim

So you would lie and make up a false accusation? Isn't that what you are accusing the ISPs of doing? Two wrongs don't make a right.

As for the U.N declaring that disconnecting a person from the internet is a human rights violation, I would like to see the context in which they declared that. Second of all, the U.N. has no jurisdiction over American companies offering service to American citizens. So you have no point there.

Even if it's true, does that mean I can stop paying my ISP bill and when they disconnect service, I can claim they have violated my human rights..lol. Good luck with that.

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Robbie

gideongallery = clown

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-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

gideongallery

who said anything about lying

i only use the torrent to download tv shows i paid for

i use the technology to timeshift

if your accusing me of copyright infringement your accusations is false because fair use says none of the copyright holders exclusive rights apply to my actions.

if your misrepresenting my fair use as a false copyright infringement I want proof that "misrepresentation" isn't because of my race


i love that arguement

just because your not given it for free, your not entitled to it at all

you have a right to own property, does that mean that the government can take your property away from you just because all property is not given away for free.


already address that and a whole bunch of equally bogus arguements when i first reported it

https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1025...UN+human+right

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“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak

MrMaxwell

Are you saying that you can hack WPA in 2 hours?
What's under the hood?

mynameisjim

Gideon, I think you are losing touch with reality. You are trying to bring in all these unrelated circumstances and weave some sort of truth or precedent from it. It's like when a student doesn't know the answer to an essay question and he bluffs his way through it by making a bunch of vague references to different things which are mostly true, but the overall answer is just a rambling mess. Trust me, I use to do this all the time in school so I'm very familiar with the technique.

I applaud your effort, but this particular cloth you've woven from unrelated cases just has no place in how the real world actually works. You might be able to score some points in a debate club with these arguments, but in the real world they won't have any impact.

Unlike most people on GFY, I actually think you're probably a decent guy and your heart is the right place. But on this one you are trying to frame the issue as some sort of legal or civil rights issue, when that's just not the case.

This is a free market issue. If an ISP starts dropping subscribers and word gets out and people don't like it, then those customers will move to an ISP that doesn't do it. Or one ISP will drop out of the agreement and mop up all the angry subscribers. The free market will take care of this issue if it's truly as bad as you say it is.

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gideongallery

seriously the guy who is arguing that you can make up any excuse you want to breach the contract simply by claiming you "believe" that excuse is legitimate is claiming i am stretching the truth.

all business actions are governed by consumer protection laws.

Think about what your trying to claim, companies could promise insanely high speeds, massive bandwidth availability, and NEVER delivery any of it because they misrepresent fair use as infringment and cap every account, if you were right

Fuck all the anti fraud statutes that prevent such an action they would alll be irrelevent because they could simply argue that they "believed" it was a crime with "no proof" whatsoever.



your talking about an industry wide mandated policy, which all isp would be forced to comply with.

they were dragged kicking and screaming to comply by copyright cartel


That a monopoly control level change, which by definition eliminates the free market solution from the equation.

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“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak

Robbie

He never had touch with reality. He's not in our business. He's never been in our business. He's an armchair quarterback with a pro-stealing agenda. And a very, very bad problem with processing of abstract thought.

My take on gideongallery is that he was a "special" student in school and had a lot of trouble learning. Not saying he is stupid...just saying that something in his brain processes is short circuited and makes learning things very difficult for him.

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-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

gideongallery

right i am the idiot who recommended that manwin copy mininova's go legit plan for their tube sites and thought that was a brilliant idea that would fix the industry

oh wait that was you

seriously if ideas like that are what your "industry Experts" can come up with
you defininately need an outside voice or at least a voice that has actually experimented with the principles, and has enough of a brain to realize that if you copy the failed process of another company it going to fail again.

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“When crimes occur through the mail, you don’t shut the post office down,” Steve Wozniak