Every single time a minimum-wage law is passed, unemployment figures rise. #ows - GoFuckYourself.com

u-Bob · 10-12-2011, 03:00 AM

by Rod Rojas:

I have to say that I share most ? if not all ? the goals of the honest Left, which would be embodied in a constantly rising standard of living for the lowest economic classes. I often find myself watching Democracy Now for its antiwar, free-speech, and anti-death-penalty stances. But the big problem with the honest Left is their absolute and obstinate refusal to learn the most basic economic principles. The "Occupy Wall Street" movement is no different, and it is a real pity that all this energy and frustration can't be put to use toward achieving their goal.

Many demands are being made, but sadly, if these were ever implemented, they would make problems worse by lowering the standard of living for all ? especially for the poor! I will proceed to address some of the demands in plain English, hoping to reach out to them.

Raise the Minimum Wage to $20

If this were a solution, why not raise the legal minimum to $50 an hour, or maybe to $1,000 an hour? If this were a real solution, why not go to a poor country and legislate a minimum wage of $1,000 an hour and let the wealth flow!

Hong Kong, which enjoys one of the highest standards of living with almost no unemployment, didn't have a minimum-wage law until 2010, and it was passed because of pressure from the Communist government in Beijing. Switzerland has a very similar story of creating amazing wealth with low unemployment for its population without a minimum wage until very recently.

With the minimum wage you are creating an obstacle for hiring people if their labor doesn't produce more than the minimum wage. For example, if a teenager without experience produces only $5 an hour, the employer will not hire him at $20 per hour, because it would represent a loss of $15 per hour. The employer will instead not hire at all, hire a more experienced and productive person, or purchase a labor-saving machine.

Every single time a minimum-wage law is passed, or the minimum-wage rate is raised, unemployment figures rise, and they rise mostly among the most vulnerable in society.

Free College Education

What do you mean by "free"? Are the costs going to magically go away?

Perhaps what they mean is that they want somebody else to pay for their education. They protest against the plundering on the part of bankers, which is a correct stance, but instead of advocating for honesty across the board, they just want to plunder themselves.

Guaranteed living-wage income, regardless of employment

Everybody would like to do something fun and get paid for it, but reality is different.

If you are a poet or literature graduate and are not getting paid enough, it means that people are not interested enough in what you are doing, or that there are too many other people trying to do what you are doing. If you are not being paid enough you are not in a field that serves and meets the needs of your fellow citizens. Your low pay is a signal; pay attention to it.

Ending "free trade" and opening immigration

Do you not see the contradiction in these two demands?

If you want a high standard of living, you need free trade. Import restrictions may seem like common sense, but all they do is create economic distress. This is why economic sanctions are put in place against enemy regimes: these sanctions are meant to hurt them, not benefit them. Why would you want to impose economic sanctions upon yourselves?

Immigration is always positive because it increases the division of labor, which makes society more productive; but it doesn't work if you offer immigrants "free" services, because then people do not come with a job in mind but rather with the promise of free goodies. This type of policy always creates racial tension between the immigrants and the population at large.

Immediate across-the-board debt forgiveness for all; Outlaw all credit-reporting agencies

These two demands, if passed into law, would be rewarding debtors and punishing savers, rewarding risk takers at the expense of prudent people. Need I say more?

Of course, the corrupted system by which the banks create credit out of thin air, creating bubbles in the economy, has to end.

One trillion dollars in infrastructure spending

If this were the solution, why not do 2 trillion? Why not 100 trillion? Why don't poor countries just spend more?

Economics is pretty much like most other sciences: 2+2=4 here in North America, just as 2+2=4 in Siberia or Argentina. This means that if you compare your own household's economic workings with the national economy you can make very accurate assertions and learn many things. Keeping this in mind, when you and your family are broke, do you spend more? Does spending create more wealth for you as an individual? The answer to those questions is of course a resounding no.

Then, ask yourself this: What makes me better off? What measures bring my economic house in order? When you have the answer to those questions, not only will you ? hopefully ? understand that the government cannot possibly help; you will also know what you need to do.

$5 submissions · 10-12-2011, 03:20 AM

Minimum wage also has a racially disparate impact

k0nr4d · 10-12-2011, 03:30 AM

some very true points there.

jackblacklt · 10-12-2011, 03:51 AM

Shoot the greedy people the economy is back where it was!

"Then, ask yourself this: What makes me better off? What measures bring my economic house in order? When you have the answer to those questions, not only will you ? hopefully ? understand that the government cannot possibly help; you will also know what you need to do."

That's 100% bullshit man. I'm living in a country where they have been telling us that for 20 yr. Why? Because the corruption is so fucking hight and nobody can't do anything without stepping on somebody else toes. USA corruption increased year by year. Money don't disappear overnight, just drained to a better place

People become greedier because the average american was more concerned about the American Idol winner than what's going on there.

Don't want to disappoint you but the average people can't do anything to help himself or the economy. Maybe just survive! People who brought USA to this situation are still there and they aren't going to leave anytime soon.

Fletch XXX · 10-12-2011, 04:39 AM

"Hong Kong, which enjoys one of the highest standards of living" i stopped right there from laughing tooooo hard

lol

Theo · 10-12-2011, 04:41 AM

$20/hour will create havoc in the states. Unrealistic.

kane · 10-12-2011, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u-Bob

by Rod Rojas:

I have to say that I share most ? if not all ? the goals of the honest Left, which would be embodied in a constantly rising standard of living for the lowest economic classes. I often find myself watching Democracy Now for its antiwar, free-speech, and anti-death-penalty stances. But the big problem with the honest Left is their absolute and obstinate refusal to learn the most basic economic principles. The "Occupy Wall Street" movement is no different, and it is a real pity that all this energy and frustration can't be put to use toward achieving their goal.

Many demands are being made, but sadly, if these were ever implemented, they would make problems worse by lowering the standard of living for all ? especially for the poor! I will proceed to address some of the demands in plain English, hoping to reach out to them.

Just a couple of thoughts on some of these points.

Quote:

Raise the Minimum Wage to $20

If this were a solution, why not raise the legal minimum to $50 an hour, or maybe to $1,000 an hour? If this were a real solution, why not go to a poor country and legislate a minimum wage of $1,000 an hour and let the wealth flow!

Hong Kong, which enjoys one of the highest standards of living with almost no unemployment, didn't have a minimum-wage law until 2010, and it was passed because of pressure from the Communist government in Beijing. Switzerland has a very similar story of creating amazing wealth with low unemployment for its population without a minimum wage until very recently.

With the minimum wage you are creating an obstacle for hiring people if their labor doesn't produce more than the minimum wage. For example, if a teenager without experience produces only $5 an hour, the employer will not hire him at $20 per hour, because it would represent a loss of $15 per hour. The employer will instead not hire at all, hire a more experienced and productive person, or purchase a labor-saving machine.

Every single time a minimum-wage law is passed, or the minimum-wage rate is raised, unemployment figures rise, and they rise mostly among the most vulnerable in society.

This isn't always true. There are times in our history when the minimum wage has gone up and unemployment went down like in 1990's or even in the 40's when it was started.

While it may have something to do with the overall bigger picture I think it is just a piece of the puzzle. You can look at times when the economy is doing well and minimum wage isn't even in the conversation for many people because the jobs being created are competitive wage jobs so they pay more than minimum and companies compete for those employees.

There are a lot of places like Switzerland and Hong Kong who have done well without a minimum wage. But there are a lot of third world shithole countries out there without them where people live in abject poverty. Not having a minimum wage would require A. a corporate community that was responsible and treated workers with respect and B.some kind of oversight to make sure there didn't become such a separation of wealth that most jobs became lower wage jobs and those wages were nearly impossible to live on.

It is a big issue.

Quote:

Free College Education

What do you mean by "free"? Are the costs going to magically go away?

Perhaps what they mean is that they want somebody else to pay for their education. They protest against the plundering on the part of bankers, which is a correct stance, but instead of advocating for honesty across the board, they just want to plunder themselves.

I look the model that Qatar is using. They are a rich middle eastern country that has the largest deposit of natural gas in the world. Yet their leadership knows that one day it may run out. He has taken it upon himself to stress education to the people of his country. College is free. Men and women are encouraged to go and K-12th grade is required. They have liberal laws when compared to other middle eastern countries. He realizes that an educated population is a valuable one.

We look at it differently. The leaders of this country must feel that a valuable, good worker, is someone that needs that job badly. The best way to do that is shackle them with massive debt before they even get the job.

If we as a country are going to compete in the future we need to fix our educational system. Free college might not be realistic for us, but $100K for a bachelors degree can't be sustained.

Quote:

Ending "free trade" and opening immigration

Do you not see the contradiction in these two demands?

If you want a high standard of living, you need free trade. Import restrictions may seem like common sense, but all they do is create economic distress. This is why economic sanctions are put in place against enemy regimes: these sanctions are meant to hurt them, not benefit them. Why would you want to impose economic sanctions upon yourselves?

Immigration is always positive because it increases the division of labor, which makes society more productive; but it doesn't work if you offer immigrants "free" services, because then people do not come with a job in mind but rather with the promise of free goodies. This type of policy always creates racial tension between the immigrants and the population at large.

Free trade is a must, but it wouldn't kill us to be a little tougher on those we trade with or on our own companies like Apple who could bring all of their manufacturing jobs home to the US and still make a 100% profit on their items, but they choose to have them made in China for more profit.

Quote:

Immediate across-the-board debt forgiveness for all; Outlaw all credit-reporting agencies

These two demands, if passed into law, would be rewarding debtors and punishing savers, rewarding risk takers at the expense of prudent people. Need I say more?

Of course, the corrupted system by which the banks create credit out of thin air, creating bubbles in the economy, has to end.

We can't just forgive debt. I think working with home owners who are upside down on their mortgages isn't a terrible thing. Also, like you said, we need to put an end to how banks seem to make money out of thin air.

Quote:

One trillion dollars in infrastructure spending

If this were the solution, why not do 2 trillion? Why not 100 trillion? Why don't poor countries just spend more?

Economics is pretty much like most other sciences: 2+2=4 here in North America, just as 2+2=4 in Siberia or Argentina. This means that if you compare your own household's economic workings with the national economy you can make very accurate assertions and learn many things. Keeping this in mind, when you and your family are broke, do you spend more? Does spending create more wealth for you as an individual? The answer to those questions is of course a resounding no.

This could put people to work for the short term while the economy rights itself and it is something that needs to be done. My friend has a daughter in grade school. It is the same grade school he and I went to in the early 80's. Nothing has been upgraded. Hell, most of the place hasn't even been painted and the building is just falling apart. Spending an unlimited amount on these kinds of things is foolish. But putting some people to work doing jobs that need to be done is not a terrible idea.

Quote:

Then, ask yourself this: What makes me better off? What measures bring my economic house in order? When you have the answer to those questions, not only will you ? hopefully ? understand that the government cannot possibly help; you will also know what you need to do.

If we are being honest, most people do exactly what the government does. If suddenly they are taking in less money they make up the difference with credit and just hold on hoping to get a better job or a raise or whatever to help make up the slack. Only when that credit runs out and it is clear there are no other options do most people downsize and change their lives.

Theo · 10-12-2011, 04:52 AM

Good post Kane.

Theo · 10-12-2011, 04:56 AM

Govt should give motives to corporations to bring back manufacturing

MaDalton · 10-12-2011, 05:14 AM

i have no idea about whats and ifs - but what i see especially in eastern germany is the following: people get employed for very low money which is by far not enough to make a living. so they go and get financial help from the government which is paid from the taxes everyone pays. so the companies make more profit by outsourcing their labour costs to the taxpayer - which sounds absurd to me.

tony286 · 10-12-2011, 05:40 AM

What are you going to do have people working here for a dollar an hour? So we have less unemployment but people cant take care of themselves so they are employed and on welfare and on medicaid? The problem is a good part of the middle class go yeah yeah get rid of min wage,never raise it. Really don't know the history of this country,read about around JP Morgans time we are heading back that way. Its sad they vote against their own interests thinking they are part of a class that laughs at them.

tony286 · 10-12-2011, 05:41 AM

also when the bridges keep crumbling hope you arent on it bitching about government spending lol

blackmonsters · 10-12-2011, 06:11 AM

Unemployment was non-existent during slavery

</end thread>

Sly · 10-12-2011, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVN Theo

Govt should give motives to corporations to bring back manufacturing

They are trying this right now. The package will end up being a proposed tax break package for corporations along with streamlining incentives etc.. I do not see that happening. People will flip if they see corporations get "even more tax breaks."

12clicks · 10-12-2011, 06:40 AM

If a company spends $1000 a day for 5 employees and the government comes in and tells them to pay $250 a day instead of $200 a day, the company just lays someone off.
If you think raising the minimum wage will result in any other way, you've never run a business.

vsex · 10-12-2011, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

Unemployment was non-existent during slavery

</end thread>

96ukssob · 10-12-2011, 07:57 AM

simple. the more you have to pay a single person the less people you can hire. if minimum wage was LOWERED to $5 per hour, there would be a lot more jobs

tony286 · 10-12-2011, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVN Theo

Govt should give motives to corporations to bring back manufacturing

there are no motives to replace 30 cents an hour.

Caligari · 10-12-2011, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

They are trying this right now. The package will end up being a proposed tax break package for corporations along with streamlining incentives etc.. I do not see that happening. People will flip if they see corporations get "even more tax breaks."

far less of a problem if it means bringing back manufacturing to the U.S.
giving tax incentives to corps for making products in china is complete bullshit, and this is part of the problem. oh, and bailing their lame asses out when they fail.

Where is the OP text originally from? no link-

Fair trade, not Free trade. Free trade is now an excuse to move faster to the lowest common denominator. Screw that.

Cost of Iraq and Afgan wars since 2001- 1.2 TRILLION dollars and rising by the second.

How far would 1.2 trillion dollars go into at least partially funding college education in the U.S.?

How far would 1.2 trillion dollars go into making alot of douchebags from Halliburton, Bechtel etc stinking rich from the blood of lame ass wars?

Hey, here's billions of tax dollars being well spent-
http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/29/fbi_terror/

like the energizer bunny it just keeps going and going and going...

woj · 10-12-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i have no idea about whats and ifs - but what i see especially in eastern germany is the following: people get employed for very low money which is by far not enough to make a living. so they go and get financial help from the government which is paid from the taxes everyone pays. so the companies make more profit by outsourcing their labour costs to the taxpayer - which sounds absurd to me.

Why should it be employer's problem that the employee doesn't make enough to live on? Lets hypothetically say you hire a model for $50, is it your problem that she can't pay her rent with that? Of course not. You think the solution is that there should be minimum wage for models, lets say $200, so she can afford to pay her rent?

MaDalton · 10-12-2011, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

Why should it be employer's problem that the employee doesn't make enough to live on? Lets hypothetically say you hire a model for $50, is it your problem that she can't pay her rent with that? Of course not. You think the solution is that there should be minimum wage for models, lets say $200, so she can afford to pay her rent?

when you hire someone full time - 40 hours a week - this person should be able to make a living from it. without the tax payer having to jump in to help.

your comparison with the model is totally flawed, she's not my fulltime employee, she's hired for a temporary job for a couple of hours

TheDoc · 10-12-2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12clicks

If a company spends $1000 a day for 5 employees and the government comes in and tells them to pay $250 a day instead of $200 a day, the company just lays someone off.
If you think raising the minimum wage will result in any other way, you've never run a business.

Unless you need 5 employees to run the business.

While I'm sure some owners run a business so badly they would be forced to lay people/someone off.... most either take it out of the profits or more logically adjust costs so the consumer covers the cost, which is how most products/services are setup already.

Wage increases and/or hiring just 1 more person, both stimulate the economy by increasing the purchasing power of the people, thus allowing for demand to go up, thus more mass jobs opening up to cover the demand.

Whatever the hell it takes.. that's what needs to happen right now.

Sly · 10-12-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

when you hire someone full time - 40 hours a week - this person should be able to make a living from it. without the tax payer having to jump in to help.

your comparison with the model is totally flawed, she's not my fulltime employee, she's hired for a temporary job for a couple of hours

I disagree. Who and what defines "make a living?" There are families of five living on less than $40,000 a year. There are families of two that think living on $100,000 a year is impossible.

A job is worth X based on economics, not based on "what should or shouldn't be." If "minimum wage" requirements force the economics to not work out, the job simply won't exist.

DaddyHalbucks · 10-12-2011, 08:40 AM

OWS is based on the phony premise that Wall Street is responsible for the economic collapse. In reality, the causes were the government policies that forced banks to make unsound loans in the first place..

If you think unemployment is bad now, force employers to pay $20 per hour..

More stimulus? It failed before, but they still want more money from the taxpayers? Where does it end?

The present state of the economy is a result of government policies that are very similar to the latest round of demands from OWS.

OWS talks about the selfishness of Wall Street, but they need to look in the mirror.

woj · 10-12-2011, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

when you hire someone full time - 40 hours a week - this person should be able to make a living from it. without the tax payer having to jump in to help.

your comparison with the model is totally flawed, she's not my fulltime employee, she's hired for a temporary job for a couple of hours

I agree, someone working fulltime should be able to make a living... but if they are unable to, I don't see how it's employer's problem... the employer has nothing to do with employees ability to make a living... employee just sells his time for an agreed upon price...

TheDoc · 10-12-2011, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

OWS is based on the phony premise that Wall Street is responsible for the economic collapse. In reality, the causes were the government policies that forced banks to make unsound loans in the first place..

If you think unemployment is bad now, force employers to pay $20 per hour..

More stimulus? It failed before, but they still want more money from the taxpayers? Where does it end?

The present state of the economy is a result of government policies that are very similar to the latest round of demands from OWS.

OWS talks about the selfishness of Wall Street, but they need to look in the mirror.

Yeah, of course nobody on wall street / financial institutions / super corps used the money/powers they have to influence the gov to make those laws that allowed those loans to happen.

OWS simply sees the direct result of the extreme right take over of our government over the last 40-50 years, which has stolen from us, bankrupted us, frauded us, and continue to do so today...

Odd view, how is it selfish to want the money out of politics?

MaDalton · 10-12-2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

I disagree. Who and what defines "make a living?" There are families of five living on less than $40,000 a year. There are families of two that think living on $100,000 a year is impossible.

A job is worth X based on economics, not based on "what should or shouldn't be." If "minimum wage" requirements force the economics to not work out, the job simply won't exist.

it's not about what people "think" they need to live, it's about the minimum living the law says.

i can only talk about germany, but there you have a minimum total of like 900 euro. if you earn with your full time job only 750 Euro, the government pays you 150 Euro on top. and that money comes from the other tax payers. and no one has a look if the company that employs this person makes profit and if they could afford to pay him 900 Euro. and that is nuts - because it gets abused all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

I agree, someone working fulltime should be able to make a living... but if they are unable to, I don't see how it's employer's problem... the employer has nothing to do with employees ability to make a living... employee just sells his time for an agreed upon price...

see above.

Sly · 10-12-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

it's not about what people "think" they need to live, it's about the minimum living the law says.

i can only talk about germany, but there you have a minimum total of like 900 euro. if you earn with your full time job only 750 Euro, the government pays you 150 Euro on top. and that money comes from the other tax payers. and no one has a look if the company that employs this person makes profit and if they could afford to pay him 900 Euro. and that is nuts - because it gets abused all the time.

see above.

Is the 900 based on the same family structure? Single mom with two kids, family of five, single male, etc.

woj · 10-12-2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

it's not about what people "think" they need to live, it's about the minimum living the law says.

i can only talk about germany, but there you have a minimum total of like 900 euro. if you earn with your full time job only 750 Euro, the government pays you 150 Euro on top. and that money comes from the other tax payers. and no one has a look if the company that employs this person makes profit and if they could afford to pay him 900 Euro. and that is nuts - because it gets abused all the time.

"absurd" is probably not the right word, I would call it "unfortunate" that the economic conditions are what they are...

I think it would be more appropriate to use "absurd" to describe a policy that forces employers to pay 900 for a job that is worth only 750...

either way, it doesn't matter, there is probably no right answer... political discussions like these could go on for pages, people who were "left" leaning, will continue to lean left, while "right" leaning people will continue to do the same... going back to work, see you guys in the next thread

MaDalton · 10-12-2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

Is the 900 based on the same family structure? Single mom with two kids, family of five, single male, etc.

no - like i said - single. every kid gives like 150 euro extra or so and is paid independently. and if you're married with double income, of course both income are counted together.

but the principle is the same - companies are encouraged to pay little cause the government (and we, the tax payers) takes care of the rest. and thats why probably a minimum wage will come in Germany within the next 2-3 years

MaDalton · 10-12-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

"absurd" is probably not the right word, I would call it "unfortunate" that the economic conditions are what they are...

I think it would be more appropriate to use "absurd" to describe a policy that forces employers to pay 900 for a job that is worth only 750...

either way, it doesn't matter, there is probably no right answer... political discussions like these could go on for pages, people who were "left" leaning, will continue to lean left, while "right" leaning people will continue to do the same... going back to work, see you guys in the next thread

who says the job is "worth" only 750? You know that why? You've seen the employers numbers?

i didnt say absurd, i said abused. because that is what happens.

Robbie · 10-12-2011, 11:13 AM

I didn't bother to read the replies in this thread. I'm sure that it's a bunch of arguing that is barely connected to the original post.

The original post that ubob copied and pasted is a good one. And it cuts through the bullshit. Politicians and economists try to muddle up things to make themselves seem special and smarter than the rest of us.

That post cuts to the quick and looks ahead like a chess game. And it's 100% right.

TheDoc · 10-12-2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I didn't bother to read the replies in this thread. I'm sure that it's a bunch of arguing that is barely connected to the original post.

The original post that ubob copied and pasted is a good one. And it cuts through the bullshit. Politicians and economists try to muddle up things to make themselves seem special and smarter than the rest of us.

That post cuts to the quick and looks ahead like a chess game. And it's 100% right.

In the linked page, is the note below.

"Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands."

.... I recommend watching some youtube videos, reading the various protest sites, and keeping up with a couple of the top social networks following this, facebook, reddit, and twitter. Yeah, you're going to find morons that don't get it and have stupid messages - but the core message, the reason why, the age range, the race range... it will shine through to you that this isn't a bunch of hippies, very quickly - and what the media is spewing, will shock you once you see what's really happening.

I now know because of this event - that our media from pbs to fox, is bought and paid for, the skewing, the bullshit, the lies, the lack of coverage on extremely crazy shit going down, the skew of what did go down... I've never, ever - seen it this extreme or open before.

Grapesoda · 10-12-2011, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

Why should it be employer's problem that the employee doesn't make enough to live on? Lets hypothetically say you hire a model for $50, is it your problem that she can't pay her rent with that? Of course not. You think the solution is that there should be minimum wage for models, lets say $200, so she can afford to pay her rent?

well a model can fuck ya for another $200 AND then pay the rent... much rather you get fucked than me

Robbie · 10-12-2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

In the linked page, is the note below.

I wasn't even really concerned with the protestors. Most of them there are just doing it to get their face on television. Like every "protest" these days...take the t.v. cameras away and the protest goes away.

I was just remarking on substance of the post that ubob pasted here.
If all those things are so great (and not saying that's what the protestors want...just saying that all of those things are argued a lot politically)...then why not take them all the way to their logical conclusion as that post suggested? Answer: Because it's NOT good.

It only makes sense that when the minimum wage goes up...an employer isn't going to be able to hire as many people AND the cost of living goes up.

It's kinda like which came first...the chicken or the egg.

In my humble opinion, the U.S. has priced itself out of the labor market and if I owned a big corporation I would do what is best for ME and MY company. Which would mean building plants overseas and hiring overseas.

In my opinion it's the fault of politicians trying to get elected by making tons of populists promises to get votes. Then when they raise the minimum wage..guess what happens: The cost of living goes UP.

And yet they do it again and again and again.

I went to the store today and bought a "regular sized" snickers and a coke. It was THREE DOLLARS!!!
That was 15 cents in the 1970's. WTF?

Yeah, I'd say people NEED $1000 an hour minimum wage at this pace.

10-12-2011, 03:00 AM	#1
u-Bob there's no $$$ in porn Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: icq: 195./568.-230 (btw: not getting offline msgs) Posts: 33,063	Every single time a minimum-wage law is passed, unemployment figures rise. #ows by Rod Rojas: I have to say that I share most ? if not all ? the goals of the honest Left, which would be embodied in a constantly rising standard of living for the lowest economic classes. I often find myself watching Democracy Now for its antiwar, free-speech, and anti-death-penalty stances. But the big problem with the honest Left is their absolute and obstinate refusal to learn the most basic economic principles. The "Occupy Wall Street" movement is no different, and it is a real pity that all this energy and frustration can't be put to use toward achieving their goal. Many demands are being made, but sadly, if these were ever implemented, they would make problems worse by lowering the standard of living for all ? especially for the poor! I will proceed to address some of the demands in plain English, hoping to reach out to them. Raise the Minimum Wage to $20 If this were a solution, why not raise the legal minimum to $50 an hour, or maybe to $1,000 an hour? If this were a real solution, why not go to a poor country and legislate a minimum wage of $1,000 an hour and let the wealth flow! Hong Kong, which enjoys one of the highest standards of living with almost no unemployment, didn't have a minimum-wage law until 2010, and it was passed because of pressure from the Communist government in Beijing. Switzerland has a very similar story of creating amazing wealth with low unemployment for its population without a minimum wage until very recently. With the minimum wage you are creating an obstacle for hiring people if their labor doesn't produce more than the minimum wage. For example, if a teenager without experience produces only $5 an hour, the employer will not hire him at $20 per hour, because it would represent a loss of $15 per hour. The employer will instead not hire at all, hire a more experienced and productive person, or purchase a labor-saving machine. Every single time a minimum-wage law is passed, or the minimum-wage rate is raised, unemployment figures rise, and they rise mostly among the most vulnerable in society. Free College Education What do you mean by "free"? Are the costs going to magically go away? Perhaps what they mean is that they want somebody else to pay for their education. They protest against the plundering on the part of bankers, which is a correct stance, but instead of advocating for honesty across the board, they just want to plunder themselves. Guaranteed living-wage income, regardless of employment Everybody would like to do something fun and get paid for it, but reality is different. If you are a poet or literature graduate and are not getting paid enough, it means that people are not interested enough in what you are doing, or that there are too many other people trying to do what you are doing. If you are not being paid enough you are not in a field that serves and meets the needs of your fellow citizens. Your low pay is a signal; pay attention to it. Ending "free trade" and opening immigration Do you not see the contradiction in these two demands? If you want a high standard of living, you need free trade. Import restrictions may seem like common sense, but all they do is create economic distress. This is why economic sanctions are put in place against enemy regimes: these sanctions are meant to hurt them, not benefit them. Why would you want to impose economic sanctions upon yourselves? Immigration is always positive because it increases the division of labor, which makes society more productive; but it doesn't work if you offer immigrants "free" services, because then people do not come with a job in mind but rather with the promise of free goodies. This type of policy always creates racial tension between the immigrants and the population at large. Immediate across-the-board debt forgiveness for all; Outlaw all credit-reporting agencies These two demands, if passed into law, would be rewarding debtors and punishing savers, rewarding risk takers at the expense of prudent people. Need I say more? Of course, the corrupted system by which the banks create credit out of thin air, creating bubbles in the economy, has to end. One trillion dollars in infrastructure spending If this were the solution, why not do 2 trillion? Why not 100 trillion? Why don't poor countries just spend more? Economics is pretty much like most other sciences: 2+2=4 here in North America, just as 2+2=4 in Siberia or Argentina. This means that if you compare your own household's economic workings with the national economy you can make very accurate assertions and learn many things. Keeping this in mind, when you and your family are broke, do you spend more? Does spending create more wealth for you as an individual? The answer to those questions is of course a resounding no. Then, ask yourself this: What makes me better off? What measures bring my economic house in order? When you have the answer to those questions, not only will you ? hopefully ? understand that the government cannot possibly help; you will also know what you need to do.

10-12-2011, 03:20 AM	#2
$5 submissions I help you SUCCEED Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Pearl of the Orient Seas Posts: 32,195	Minimum wage also has a racially disparate impact __________________ Need a NON-ADULT income stream? We build your YOUTUBE CHANNEL for only $20 per video! For Hire: $3/hour or $400 per month Marketing Specialist Virtual Assistants

10-12-2011, 03:30 AM	#3
k0nr4d Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 9,228	some very true points there. __________________ Mechanical Bunny Media Mechbunny Tube Script \| Mechbunny Webcam Aggregator Script \| Custom Web Development

10-12-2011, 03:51 AM	#4
jackblacklt Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: on Internet Posts: 84	Shoot the greedy people the economy is back where it was! "Then, ask yourself this: What makes me better off? What measures bring my economic house in order? When you have the answer to those questions, not only will you ? hopefully ? understand that the government cannot possibly help; you will also know what you need to do." That's 100% bullshit man. I'm living in a country where they have been telling us that for 20 yr. Why? Because the corruption is so fucking hight and nobody can't do anything without stepping on somebody else toes. USA corruption increased year by year. Money don't disappear overnight, just drained to a better place People become greedier because the average american was more concerned about the American Idol winner than what's going on there. Don't want to disappoint you but the average people can't do anything to help himself or the economy. Maybe just survive! People who brought USA to this situation are still there and they aren't going to leave anytime soon. __________________ Celebrities Leaked Sex Tapes \| Amateurs Leaked Sex Tape \| Camwhoring Self Pics \| Homemade Girlfriend \| Sex Caught on Tape \| Teenage SelfPics

10-12-2011, 04:39 AM	#5
Fletch XXX GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: that 504 Posts: 60,840	"Hong Kong, which enjoys one of the highest standards of living" i stopped right there from laughing tooooo hard lol __________________ Want an Android App for your tube, membership, or free site? Need banners or promo material? Hit us up (ICQ Fletch: 148841377) or email me fletchxxx at gmail.com - recent work - About me

10-12-2011, 04:41 AM	#6
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,524	$20/hour will create havoc in the states. Unrealistic.

10-12-2011, 04:52 AM	#8
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,524	Good post Kane.

10-12-2011, 04:56 AM	#9
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,524	Govt should give motives to corporations to bring back manufacturing

10-12-2011, 05:14 AM	#10
MaDalton I am Amazing Content! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 39,825	i have no idea about whats and ifs - but what i see especially in eastern germany is the following: people get employed for very low money which is by far not enough to make a living. so they go and get financial help from the government which is paid from the taxes everyone pays. so the companies make more profit by outsourcing their labour costs to the taxpayer - which sounds absurd to me. __________________ AmazingContent.com - providing only the best content and service since 2003 Monetize your content on Veegaz.com - one of Germanies largest VOD sites Got German traffic? We convert it into money for you! Skype: madalton02826 - Email: oltecconsult [at] gmail [dot] com

10-12-2011, 05:40 AM	#11
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	What are you going to do have people working here for a dollar an hour? So we have less unemployment but people cant take care of themselves so they are employed and on welfare and on medicaid? The problem is a good part of the middle class go yeah yeah get rid of min wage,never raise it. Really don't know the history of this country,read about around JP Morgans time we are heading back that way. Its sad they vote against their own interests thinking they are part of a class that laughs at them. Last edited by tony286; 10-12-2011 at 05:42 AM..

10-12-2011, 05:41 AM	#12
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	also when the bridges keep crumbling hope you arent on it bitching about government spending lol

10-12-2011, 06:11 AM	#13
blackmonsters Making PHP work Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: 🌎🌅🌈🌇 Posts: 20,227	Unemployment was non-existent during slavery </end thread> __________________ Make Money with Porn

10-12-2011, 06:40 AM	#15
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,780	If a company spends $1000 a day for 5 employees and the government comes in and tells them to pay $250 a day instead of $200 a day, the company just lays someone off. If you think raising the minimum wage will result in any other way, you've never run a business. __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

10-12-2011, 07:57 AM	#17
96ukssob So Fucking Banananananas Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: If I was in your ass you'd know it Posts: 12,991	simple. the more you have to pay a single person the less people you can hire. if minimum wage was LOWERED to $5 per hour, there would be a lot more jobs __________________ Email: Clicky on Me

10-12-2011, 08:40 AM	#24
DaddyHalbucks A freakin' legend! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada USA Posts: 18,975	OWS is based on the phony premise that Wall Street is responsible for the economic collapse. In reality, the causes were the government policies that forced banks to make unsound loans in the first place.. If you think unemployment is bad now, force employers to pay $20 per hour.. More stimulus? It failed before, but they still want more money from the taxpayers? Where does it end? The present state of the economy is a result of government policies that are very similar to the latest round of demands from OWS. OWS talks about the selfishness of Wall Street, but they need to look in the mirror. __________________ Boner Money

10-12-2011, 11:13 AM	#32
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,958	I didn't bother to read the replies in this thread. I'm sure that it's a bunch of arguing that is barely connected to the original post. The original post that ubob copied and pasted is a good one. And it cuts through the bullshit. Politicians and economists try to muddle up things to make themselves seem special and smarter than the rest of us. That post cuts to the quick and looks ahead like a chess game. And it's 100% right. __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com