ImLarge

fuck the mother fucking police

brassmonkey

people are going to get tired of it.

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baddog

Besides factual errors, you are making a huge assumption.

Error: It was 12 hours, not 10
Assumptions: These were the only cops in the task force.


A little reminder to those that have never watched an episode of COPS; many cops are killed or injured trying to issue a fucking speeding ticket, assuming that this suspect will not hurt them will get them killed.

Rochard

I'm amazed by this kind of stuff and how people call this a police state. Armed officers come to your door and your going to give them shit? Over something that doesn't even concern you?

Years ago at 3am the cops were pounding on my door because they had a report of a domestic dispute. They had the wrong house. Once I figured out I had four officers with shotguns outside of my house, I turned on every light I could think of and open up the door wide so they had nothing to fear. When they asked me for my ID I went and got it and left the door open wide so they could look inside.

Turns out the dispute was a few doors down.

(Ironically... My wife came down the stairs and they asked "Is there any problem here Miss?" and my wife said "I would think so".... I'm like "oh shit, here we go". Then my wife says "you just woke me up out of a dead sleep for no reason". It was good for a laugh the following morning.)

Here's the deal... You either fear the police, or you don't. I don't do drugs, don't drink, and I don't even smoke. I pay my taxes. If you fear the police, you flip them shit, they'll flip it right back at you. And this is exactly what happened here. Police wasn't there to bother her; They were looking for someone else because they had a warrant. But because dipshit here had to hide her pot stash and fears the police she gave them nothing but shit from the very first moment and it continued all the way until they left.

Sorry, when cops show up at my doorstep I don't run and get the video camera.

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dyna mo

we are on the same page here, this is where i am coming from.

baddog

Yeah, you just jump to incorrect conclusions no matter how many times or how many people point out the error of your thoughts.

Jel

this place is fucking insane...

dyna mo

i'm using generalities to illustrate my view.

fact is, how many spare cops are there for a 100 warrant roundup in a town with 5000 occupants?

how many ~7 man posses could a burrough this size drum up?

i understand cops put their lives on the line in basic confrontations, i get that. i know how to handle myself when confronted by the police to keep that part cool. she did not. i get that.

my point is escalation on a poorly thought out and executed warrant roundup should not be proper procedure. this sort of shit should have been anticipated and a proper plan pre-determined. certainly not standing around in front of her home telling her they need to talk about her grass being too tall.

that's not professional. it is understandable, simply because it's understandable a 100 warrant roundup in a town of 5000 is bound to be a clusterfuck at some point.

DWB

I also find it fascinating. It defies every basic survival instinct we have.

Humans are crazy. That's all there is to it.

dyna mo

you've been in a crazy situation right? on the street when youhad to duck for cover from a gun fight or similar?

did you find yourself frozen for a moment and having to consciously make yourself move or how did you react?

CDSmith

I won't take sides, just a few thoughts on this if I may...

1. Cops are not your friends. Whether you are the one they're coming to see or the one they are coming to help, or even if you're just a guy standing in the vicinity, you are SUSPECT. Notice I didn't say "A suspect". Meaning you are under suspicion at all times. Period. They're not there to be your friend, they're there to do a job.

2. Knowing this, that you are suspect, it would behoove you to simply cooperate with them. Don't try to double talk them, don't babble your words or waste their time or dick them around in any way, just play it straight and do what you're told.

3. If after you've fully cooperated and they're gone you feel your 'rights' have been violated or they handled the situation poorly in any way, let your lawyer do your mouthing off for you. That's their job. If you're right and the cop is wrong they'll get at the very least a black mark on their service record, and in the more egregious cases they'll get worse.


Lloyd is definitely right about one thing: Cops that don't treat every traffic stop, every door they knock on, every person they have an on-the-scene interraction with as potentially dangerous, runs the risk of getting injured or killed. I know. During my hospital working days I had several cops as patients who were injured in the line of duty. One guy was shot three times during a routine traffic stop and left for dead on the side of the highway.

As a cop you never know who or what you're dealing with until you know. You know?

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brassmonkey

im not kool with police. ive seen the other side of what they do covering up things.

they thought he was just some negro take a gander
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...nclick_check=1

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brassmonkey

noooo shiiit!

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dyna mo

cd sounds like he's been there. hmmmmm.

anyhoo, the entire thing is silly. rochard used the right word.

how big is a police force for a burrough of 5000 peeps?

100 cops you figure?

so ~7% of the entire town's police force is working on the scene trying to arrest the wrong person for not paying property taxes.

got it.

brassmonkey

well when you said the article didnt know wtf you were talking about. the op posted a video. i messed up baddog you forgive me?

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CDSmith

As it happens I have had some experience, yes.

It's also been my experience that even when cops are wrong, they're right. In this case in allegedly going to the wrong house, even in that situation they still will play it tough and by the book and the person answering the door should know that and still fully cooperate. Wrong house or not, if you give them a problem they're most definitely going to give you one.

Am I saying the cops in some cases aren't idiots? Of course not. It simply always strikes me as odd that so many want to argue the inevitable when it's, well... inevitable. Dick around in any way while a cop is doing his job, you either play it smart or end up on a video.

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DWB

For starters, no one gives a shit here how tall your grass is, if you have a dirty yard, or if you don't pay property taxes. The police would never, ever bother anyone about such nonsense. Minor traffic offenses and tourist shake downs excluded, the police don't waste their time on petty stuff like that, and certainly would never enter your home searching for someone unless they knew 100% they were hiding in the house because a neighbor ratted them out.

However, even in third world shit holes we are sometimes more advanced than western barbarians. Every legal citizen has an ID and every foreigner who entered the country has a passport. All run through the proper database and they will have a print out of that person (ID photo and ID print out) with them along with the warrant so they can clearly see the person they are speaking to is or is not the person they are looking for. They don't make the mistakes American police make, and they are 3rd world pea brains. Thai police always know exactly who they are arresting when they go to a home with an arrest warrant.

Anyway... So they would knock on my gate, I'd mozy out there and ask them what they want, they would look at the photo, see it is not me, ask if I know him or if he was inside, I would say no, and they would say "thank you" and leave. No one would ask to come in to search my property, no one would jump the gate to make me get an ID because they already have the photo of the person they are after, and they would be nice and friendly. If I was in a really good mood I'd ask them if they wanted waters or beer, which they may or may not decline and I'd make a few new friends.

That doesn't mean the police are all good here. They are incredibly corrupt, but even the bad ones usually treat you the way they should and don't overstep their boundaries unless you're in one of the big tourist cities and you get caught up in a shake down.

It boggles my mind that in the USA in the year 2013, the greatest nation on earth can't serve a warrant and have a photograph of the person they are serving it to. Just about everyone is in the system and photographed these days for one thing or another. Yet if they came with a photo then they couldn't be assholes and bullies, shooting up the wrong house or accidentally killing the wrong person. I personally think these dicks get off on being abusive. If they can figure out how to get the right person in Thailand but they can't in the USA, that really says something.

I had to get out of the USA to get perspective on how twisted it really is. When you're in the eye of the hurricane, it all seems somewhat normal.

dyna mo

i hear ya. in watching/listening to the vid again, i didn't detect any belligerence in her voice.

going strictly by the vid, it could be assumed she was not familiar with how to conduct herself.

even so, it happens all the time, people are confronted by an officer and they do not know how to handle that. if they handle it wrong, even if due to naivete, there will be a consequence they will have to pay. more charges, resisting arrest, etc, whatever.

i don't blame those people for not handling the situation better, but i also do not blame the system for doling out a consequence to those people either.

dyna mo

lolz, if i could have just stated my view with this example!

pinkz

noh law degree needed, in my cuntry that is the way it works, no warrant no entry. you may think you live in the land of the free and home of the great but you are truly misinformed and a probable sheeple!

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baddog

I guess I was not specific enough; not everyone in the roundup was for failure to maintain their property. My question is, how would that go down in Thailand for an arrest warrant? Any arrest warrant . . . or do they not have those either?


ummm
Sounds county wide to me, how about you?

DWB

Oh yea, I've been in the middle of some nonsense.

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones that stand out to me at the moment:

- Caught in the middle of a gun fight in a small road in Bogota, Colombia. Had to hide behind a small concrete wall while bullets whizzed by. We stayed put until it was over. There was no where to go.

- Was pinned down by snipers twice during the last riots in Bangkok. Have this on video, pretty crazy. They were shooting all around from rooftops trying to hit anything that moved while the ARMY was shooting down the street at protesters. Again, no where to run to. Had to wait it out until the sun went down and creep out of it very slowly. Some people got shot.

- Was taken off a bus at gun point in the mountains of Venezuela by some para military group. I actually thought I was going to get killed here, but there were 15 or 20 of them with guns on us right out of the gate and there was no where to run. They lined all the men up from the bus, my brother and I were the only white guys, they went down the list checking IDs and finally let us go. But I thought for sure that was it, and there was nothing I could do. If they would have shot us, it would have been firing squad style with 15 or 20 guns already pointed at all of us.

- Arrested in Colombia by the military police. Had an early AM raid on us, thrown to the ground, machine guns in my face, boots on my chest, all that good stuff. No choice there either, they took us down within 2 seconds flat.

Those top the list I think. In all of them I really didn't have an option to do anything other than to comply with their orders or take cover. I don't freak out during stress and can handle stuff like that pretty well. I always wanted to try my hand at combat photography, that is what took me to the front line of the riots in Bangkok. I wanted to see how I would handle a real conflict and if I could function to take photos during it. I am OK during times like that, but I have two friends who literally freeze and go brain dead over lesser things, like our raid in Colombia. So I can understand some people having the deer in the headlights syndrome, my two friends do exactly that.

SuckOnThis

Where the hell does everyone get this idea that if the cops come knocking at your door you are required to cooperate and if you don't they have the authorization to just walk into your home? Asserting your constitutional rights is not probable cause for anything, nor is having the same first name of a suspect. Some of you act like she deserved this for not kissing their butts and treating them like the gods they think they are, unbelievable.

DWB

Yes, they have arrest warrants and use them often. But like I said, they come prepared with a print out from the government database of either their ID or passport. While I'm sure a mix up has happened, I've never heard of one.

The loss of face is everything here and even the police can't afford to lose face, so they must be right 100% of the time when they go to get someone. If they mess it up the first time, they won't get a 2nd chance or another warrant because everyone involved lost face due to the error. They put in the extra work to make sure they get the right person.

When they do issue them, they can arrest the person anywhere. Sometimes they catch them at the movies, sometimes at dinner, sometimes at home. First they send someone to follow them and find the best time to get them when they are the most vulnerable and have the least chance to to resist. It's pretty hard to go for a gun when you walk to the bathroom to pee while watching Iron Man in 3D.

There have been cases where the person they are after got away. Slipped through a back door, out a window, or even jumped out of the truck after they were arrested. So that happens, but they are usually quickly arrested again.

Rochard

What brute force? They knocked on the door, explained they had a warrant, then waited while she loaded on up her video camera....

This isn't "brute force". It's how an arrest warrant is executed.

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brassmonkey

small place like that they knew where this person lived

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Rochard

No, you don't get it at all.

How many times a day do police show up with a warrant and are told "He is not here" or some other excuse? If police walked away every time they were told someone with a warrant "doesn't live there" they would never find anyone to arrest.

When police have a warrant and believe the person on the warrant lives there, they are going to search the premises. They have a warrant, issued by a court, giving them permission to search.

It doesn't work any other way.

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bigluv

This thread has caused me to revise my estimate of the average GFY IQ downward.

1) It feels to me like the cops are abusing their powers a little.
I think everyone knew what was going on was this little junkie piece of shit was trying to game them to protect whatever it was that she had to protect OR if she wasn't protecting anything in that instant then she obviously has a defensive uncooperative attitude formed with the police and that tends to raise suspicions because it implies history. That much was obvious by her behaviour.

Mind you, if she didn't live in a shithole and instead lived in a million dollar nice looking house with a little land around it that looked affluent none of this would have ever happened either.

2) I don't really give a shit too much if the police abuse their powers a little with poor people and low lifes. It's not just the entry, either. Fucking with the camera isn't really defensible. On what grounds??! This woman qualifies on both counts though.

3) The problem is, that with something like policing having the discretion to bend the rules taken to its logical conclusion means eventually the wrong person has the rules bent on them and this results in bad consequences, sometimes even death for innocents. When I say innocents I mean innocents, not "innocent in that moment" I mean, not low lifes, upstanding citizens caught in the wrong place at the wrong time or whatever.

4) Since I don't want to even have a chance of being caught up in the inexorable machinery cogs of law enforcement and ground up into hamburger and I want to be able to depend on and exercise MY rights, I have to defend hers.

At some point Rochard's "it's not me, it doesn't matter, I'm obviously not police fearing they won't screw up and mistake me for someone on the other side of the fence" argument ends up in the same place I am. He just has more unfounded faith in them recognizing his upstandingness every single time, and doesn't worry about possible governmental changes down the line once rights have eroded.

This is also a slippery slope that has consequences that are wide ranging ... see sperbonzo's mention of once you have a government that has gathered all the totalitarian powers it wants, a change in government by whatever method - including one that simply gives in to the siren song of contempt and abuse of power fostered by getting away with it for so long, can have effects not imagined by those that let them get away with those erosions in the first place.

You (and I) have rights because some very smart guys tried their best to prevent the evolution of governments into tyrannies. YOUR forefathers even fought for it.

Pissing all over that in the name of .. what.. being a good citizen? expediency? is fucking stupid and tragic.

Rochard

It wasn't seven men from one department. It was six men from three different departments, plus someone from the housing department.

Is it overkill? Sure is. But... Three officers to the front door, two to the back door - in case the suspect bolts - And another officer on the side yard or in reserve. Makes perfect sense if you think about it.

What a shame our tax dollars are wasted on arrested stupid people who can't pay their fines on time.

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dyna mo

rochard.

you've heard the metaphor work smarter not harder?


the cops can use their brains or they can use brute-force.

they were under a deadline to arrest 100 people in 12 hours.

they dedicated a huge amount of their entire resources to go arrest the wrong person without so much as trying to find a picture or a basic description.

you look silly defending that.

CDSmith

It actually stems from the all-too-common 'power trip syndrome' that afflicts many cops over time. It's not so much about getting off on being abusive, although that definitely can be the case with some. It's more about feeding their ego, and that can display itself via that cliché cop attitude.

As I said, some guys on the force are good caring guys who have an eye for when someone is a potential threat and when they're just a straight-up genuine one willing to either help them do their job or stay out of their way. Sadly, those guys are rare. The power trippers are a lot more common.

Thus as I said it's always best to just stow the ego and cooperate fully. Because the cop isn't the only one in a situation that doesn't know what he's up against. You, the person being confronted by them, also don't know just what kind of cop you're dealing with. Running, resisting or getting smartassy with them are about the dumbest things one can do, yet so many choose to go that route.

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Rochard

But when they came to my house without reason... I acted with common sense. There are four police officers with shotguns at my front door at 3am. I didn't want to get shot. So I turned on all of the lights, opened the door wide, and treated them with respect.

I don't see what the police did wrong here. They knocked on the door, they said they had a search warrant, they were let in and they searched the house. This is all perfectly legal, and happens thousands of times a day. They didn't bust down the door, they didn't pull her out of the house by her hair, nothing.

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dyna mo

when the fuck did i say they should walk away rochard?

jfc.

i am saying they should learn to do their jobs properly.

this is like a deleted scene from supertroopers for crying out loud.

rochard, you might want these guys patrolling your neighborhood but i'll take cops with better preparation over just bust the fuck in mother fucker.

cop on radio: hey uh sarge, cop #6 here trying to arrest the tax prop perp, uh, well, she claims she's not her sarge.

sarge: well, did you look at the profile of the tax prop perp to compare?

cop: uh, we're in.

SuckOnThis

They did not have a search warrant, they had an arrest warrant for a different person that lived somewhere else.

dyna mo

i've tried to make note of it re: home protection. hopefully just realizing there is a massive tendency to freeze in that situation will help keep it from happening.

i do think people can and do lockstep to what they are told to do.

there was a psych. experiment mentioned elsewhere here, not sure if it's the same but there's a fantastic one where they instruct volunteers to shock the shit out of people on the other side of a wall, ne actual electrocution is done. they are told the victims deserve it and to up the voltage even though they hear peeps screaming in pain.

CDSmith

That's the thing, one doesn't have to know how to behave. The cop will tell you what they want you to do, and often they will even tell you how to do it if the situation warrants. If he says to leave a door open or keep your hands in plain view at all times, or to turn away and raise your arms so he can search you, etc, to me it doesn't take a lot of know-how to simply do what they're telling you yet so many plead the "I didn't know what I was supposed to do" card.

Pardon the pun but it's a cop-out. I actually DO blame a lot of those people for "not handling the situation better" as you said. Not all, but many. Because they are either hard of hearing or they are just plain stupid.

Making a cop tell you twice is common, yes, but pushing one's luck. Making him tell you three or more times is just asking for trouble. And a lot of people out there seem to fail miserably to realise is that not complying with an officer's instructions is a form of resistance. Meaning one doesn't have to be physically resisting their grasp while they're trying to cuff you, it can be as passive as you simply not getting on your knees when the tell you to or refusing to put your hands on the wheel or the wall or whatever.

Is what they do in so many cases such as this right? No. Absolutely not. Is it likely to change? I seriously doubt it. It would be great if they could all be good cops. There'd be far less vids on youtube for one thing.

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Jel

That's what I linked to on page 2

dyna mo

i've had my share of confrontations with police. in various states of mind. i can assure you there are times when the cops told me what to do and i did not comprehended properly. guess what, i ended up in jail for the night.

placing blame doesn't help. as i said consequences are given via the sytem regardless.

DWB

I saw that. If they could see the person they were shocking they would not hurt them so bad, but if they could not see them, they would give them life threatening voltage.

dyna mo

i'd dig up the youtube on that but i find it hard to watch anymore.

there was another one done at stanford around that same time. they split the volunteers into 2 groups- jailers and prisoners. it did not take long for the experiment to get completely out of hand with the jailers taking advantage of the prisoners.

Rochard

They had a warrant. With an arrest warrant in hand they can search any location they believe the suspect to be. In this case the house was owned by the suspect, and the suspect was receiving mail at the house - police had reason to believe the suspect lived at the house.

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Rochard

But they didn't do anything wrong. They knocked on the door, told her they had a warrant, and got nothing but shit from her.

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dyna mo

i've never disagreed with that. i'll agree with you right now- they did nothing wrong.

and they got nothing but shit from her.

but again, if i was sarge of this posse, i'd have a sitdown with them to go over some other equally good ways of handling that situation other than escalation.

what is wrong is the lack of protocol here and just resorting to busting in in order to meet a quota.

Rochard

And this explains your position here in this thread - You've had issues with the police before.

You mentioned you were in "various states of mind" which indicates drinking at the least and drugged up at the worst. If you are so are fucked up you "cannot comprehend properly" then chances you acting like a dick, refused direct orders, and in return the police handled you.

And now until you grow up you will fear the police and not trust them.

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dyna mo

jesus christ rochard.

dyna mo

this place cracks me up. a porners board with prudes that think somehow spinning around my comments like that makes their argument better.

you and richard. y'all have fun. i wouldn't change 1 thing i've done in my life.

bigluv

FYI I treat police much the same as you do.

You are using "arrest warrant" and "search warrant" interchangeably and I don't believe that's correct.

If I go along with "they had to enter to ensure their safety" (on a cut grass charge, but given she's a lowlife and the neighbourhood is lowlifeville), they still shouldn't have the right to search , which you can see that they obviously did so (to some degree).

Also, if they were so concerned with their safety that they had to enter, then why did they allow her to go from the window to the door. How was it more unsafe the second time around going from the door back inside and to the door? The answer is it wasn't. They were tired of her bullshit and threw their weight around a little, but didn't want to break down the door to begin with because they knew they didn't have a good argument and then they might actually face consequences.

It's not clear cut, but I don't expect cops to enter or search my house without rock solid reasons. Being a dick isn't a good reason. The reason it isn't a good reason is that "being a dick" can end up being a political tool, and it is also subject to much interpretation that does not lend itself to the rule of law.

The real problem is that most people don't a) care if lowlives get their rights trampled on and b) figure it's justified for being a dick because being a dick probably goes along with being a lowlife.

But the whole concept of not maintaining rights for everyone is already a casualty when we start to debate the finer points, and that means that everyone's rights are compromised not just whoever we decide doesn't deserve them.

baddog

I take it you read something that you have failed to show any of us in this thread.

dyna mo

if they were so concerned with their own safety they would have grabbed some extra-large fatass bulletproof vests prior to going in.

instead, they all belly'ed up just fine. they weren't concerned with that.

dyna mo

i haven't failed anything. you corrected yourself and said the operation was for 12 hours.

if it's a 12 hour operation to arrest 100 people in 12 hours, then the operation has an end time/deadline.

why else would it be a 12 hour operation? instead, devote a large part of the police force to this full-time. makes sense.