Mutt

nice misrepresentation of the facts - it was a police dispatcher, do you know what a police dispatcher is? No you don't so here's your answer.

Dispatchers are special trained civilians with no powers of arrest.

Zimmerman wasn't ordered to do or not do anything because a police dispatcher doesn't have that power and additionally didn't order him not to - she said 'we don't need you to do that sir'

__________________

Rochard

I think Zimmerman had his firearm out shortly after he left his truck. According to Zimmerman's statement presented at the trial, Zimmerman said Martin was on top of him hitting him when Zimmerman was magically able to pull out a firearm from underneath him that was in a holster tucked in his waistband?

Let me rephrase that. Zimmerman had his firearm in a holster in his waistband under his jacket behind him, and he was able to pull his firearm out while Martin was on top of him hitting him?

You betcha.

Zimmerman already had his gun out.

Zimmerman wasn't beaten badly at all. He had a fat lip and two cuts. He never even needed to see a doctor.

Again, I believe Zimmerman was not only following him, but had his firearm out. Martin was acting in self defense.

Nope. I believe Martin would have gone to jail.

I'm not saying Martin is innocent here. But there was no reason to kill him. Zimmerman was the agrressive one, and pursued the kid for no reason, threatening him. Don't give me any shit he feared for his life. He wasn't even hurt.

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Rochard

You are correct. A police dispatcher has no authority to do jack shit. Yet clearly a 911 operator is much better trained than some neighborhood watch jack ass who had no training at all.

Pretty simple - Zimmerman failed to listen to the 911 operator, and look what happened. An innocent kid died, and Zimmerman's life is FUCKED.

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Rochard

Fuck the Pakistanis.

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TheSquealer

You're not very consistent in your position on the deaths of innocent children.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

Mutt

You totally ignored Zimmerman's version of events he gave to the cops, forget about how the altercation started, it was almost irrelevant to the case, only a looney tune thinks Zimmerman went out that night to hunt down and kill a black kid. Zimmerman said the kid saw his gun while on top of him, went for it and told him he was a dead man. Zimmerman feared for his life and shot him

There were no eyewitnesses to the shooting - if Martin had been shot and lived he would have given his side of the story and the jury would have had two versions to consider and it's still possible there'd be reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed attempted murder or manslaughter. Martin would have had to have taken the witness stand and been cross examined. If the kid didn't fuck up bad under cross examination I'm pretty sure Zimmerman would have been convicted. But as they say 'if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle'

__________________

Grapesoda

I think he's on meds and in fact most of the Obama/trayvon proponents are long term drug addicts

Grapesoda

uncle mom

Trend

See what I mean.... I don't know why you guys keep trying. He will never come around. He's faulty.

ThunderBalls

arock10

obviously gfy is racist and intolerant as fuck. nothing to do with zimmerman trial

bring back conspiracy theories and bitcoins, I preferred that much more then this

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Rochard

I'm not ignoring anything, and you need to keep in mind that Zimmerman had just shot and killed a kid - anything he says is suspect.

How could Martin have seen the gun if it was in a holster behind Zimmerman under a jacket? How could Martin have been going for the gun if he beating Zimmerman?

Do you really mean to tell me that while Martin was on top of him beating him, Zimmerman was able to wiggle out his arm, reach behind him, grab a firearm that was in a holster under his jacket, pull it out, and aim it?

Zimmerman wasn't beat at all. He was punched - once. Maybe twice.

None of this adds up.

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Fetish Gimp

And how exactly do YOU prove that? Because the prosecution, you know those guys whose job it is to prove that to a jury, couldn't. There's a reason why gut feelings and personal biases don't have a place in the judicial system you know.




And there you have it. If Martin's actions aren't excusable (and they aren't) because his life was NOT in any REAL danger, then he was COMMITTING A FELONY when he ASSAULTED Zimmerman.

Which is WHY the prosecution couldn't use the self-defence/stand your ground angle for Martin.

Because, and try to follow the logic here, you can't claim self-defence if YOU'RE COMMITTING A CRIME. It's why if a bank robber shoots a cop while robbing a bank he can't claim self-defence because the cop was shooting at him first.

See how that works?

Oh you're a delight.

You just agreed that a possible deadly attack on the part of Martin couldn't be excused, yet here you are, "assuming" that Zimmerman ran out of the car with his gun cocked, with no evidence to back this up because even YOU realize that the only way to excuse Martin's actions is to demonize Zimmerman.

Now stop and think about this for a minute. If Zimmerman had his gun out, how was Martin able to get on top of him and start beating him?

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Yanks_Todd

??...The same quote has been posted here under my name and the people who have the opposite opinion as me. Just scroll bro. What she said isn't up for debate.

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bean-aid

If I understand correctly the argument is zimmerman had his gun out prior to the following, the beating, and the shooting.

I didn't follow the trial at all but was there evidence that trayvon had bruises on his fists?

If so, no way could the gun have been in the open. Having a side arm is not that hard to get to, even on your back.

Fetish Gimp

And THIS is what it boils down to.

Many in the black community and kids identify with Martin and feel the anger one feels when being followed by security at a store, and even I understand the gut feeling of wanting to beat the living fuck out of the person who is following them.

And as satisfying as that fantasy might be, guess what? It's not legal. You beat somebody, you're committing a felony. Grow the fuck up.

Exactly.

And if it's so easy to assume Zimmerman ran out of his car with his gun cocked and loaded as some have so hilariously proposed, is it that hard to assume that Martin was pissed off at Zimmerman for having followed him, went back to confront him and started to beat him up in a fit of anger?

Which is why in criminal trials there's this little thing called EVIDENCE and FACTS which weighs much more than whatever assumption and gut feelings you may wish to bring to the table.

And the facts are:
Following somebody isn't illegal. None of Zimmerman's actions that night were illegal.

Assaulting somebody is illegal. Using force in self-defence is only excusable if your life is in real danger, there are no other avenues of escape available and you're not committing a crime.

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AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

I would have no problem with Trayvon Martin going to jail for assaulting George Zimmerman, if things occurred as GZ said that they did, but there are some glaring problems with Zimmerman's self-serving description of events, and it is a moot point, since Martin was murdered and will never be able to tell his version of events.

The problem many people are concerned about is trigger happy vigilante types operating under the guise of self-defense.

What also concerns some people is that more young people will feel that they have to arm themselves to defend themselves from would-be Zimmerman's, and the vicious cycle or racism will rise to another level of violence.



ADG

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Robbie

Ok, I don't know how old your daughter is...but let's pretend she's 17.
And now you are imagining that it's your daughter coming back and jumping on a Hispanic guy who followed her and she began beating the shit out of the guy and got shot dead.

Nope, your daughter (or most rational people) wouldn't do that. Only young men full of piss and fire will do something that goddamn dumb.

But now...imagine your daughter is 10 years older than 17. She's 27/28 years old (or as you call it "30"). And SHE is on the neighborhood watch and is armed because there have been robberies in the neighborhood.

SHE gets out of her car after calling 911 to report a suspicious person on a rainy night in the neighborhood that has been getting robbed. Nobody else is walking that neighborhood but this one guy wearing a hoodie and walking up in people's yards checking out their houses.

She follows him because she doesn't want to lose sight of him. (or as you call it "stalking")

Now the guy gets pissed off at being followed, comes back and punches YOUR DAUGHTER right in the nose. She goes down. He mounts her and starts beating her (or as you call it "a fist fight").

Now Rochard...do you want YOUR daughter to lay there and let this guy beat her until he gets tired of beating her? Or do you want her to put a fucking hole in him with that gun?

What's the cop saying: "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" (because the cops would have shot Trayvon Martin dead without him ever getting close enough to punch them)

See, for all your posturing you aren't thinking about the flip side of the coin. You only see what you want to see.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Robbie

That's the problem in this country? "vigilante types operating under the guise of self-defense"???

Really? That's what is killing so many people?

Do you hear yourself? Can't you see how ridiculous that is? Google up some real numbers and tell me the percentage of "vigilante types" out killing people.

Then show the numbers of actual criminals killing people during a crime.

And then break that down to how many young blacks are being killed by other young blacks.

Look up the numbers. Hell, look up how many young white kids are being killed by young white gang members doing "drive bys". Oh, that's practically non-existant? Yep, and so is a case of a neighborhood watch guy getting beat up by a black teen and shooting him dead.
It just don't happen very often. That's the part of this that is so goddamn ridiculous.

You need to face up to facts and stop being such a pollyanna politically correct person all the time.
Young blacks are more violent than most people. They were when I was a teenager too. And they still are. Thankfully they seem to grow out of it as they get into their 20's. But they are very, very violent when they are teenagers (not everyone of course...but a LOT)

__________________
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ClaudiaMarie.Com

epitome

Inserts you're from some country, you're an idiot.

Inserts some slurs.

Inserts Obama insult.

Inserts other insults because I disagree with you.

Did I miss any?

Minte

The most relevant post in this thread...

Having been around during the 60's I remember the race problems that existed. Rioting in the cities. Not a good time. In the 70's the wounds healed. It really started to seem like race was becoming a nonissue.

Today, the racial divide in this country is worse than I can ever remember. Apparently the US was not ready for a black president.. Or at least this one.

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AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

The majority of American voters apparently WERE ready for a black President, this one (there is a vocal minority that cannot accept that):



Obama has already accomplished a significant amount despite the intransigence of the party of NO, and the even more extreme kooks that are trying to take over the GOP (tea party/liberpublicans).






ADG

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Rochard

You don't have kids, do you?

Recently here at the campground by the lake there was an attempted kidnapping of a girl about my daughter's age. We now teach our kids to be observant, and in the event someone tries to grab them we teach them to fight fight back and be loud - especially our daughters.

If my daughter was followed by a 28 year old man for twenty minutes, I would expect her to do exactly what Martin did - Flee, and then when confronted try to fight.

I would expect my daughter - or anyone else - to use common sense here, which seems to be lacking over all: You don't get out of your car to follow a potential suspect around in the dark.

And even more so after a 911 operator tells you not to.

And this is where more lies come into play. Setting aside the fact that Zimmerman had multiple chances to identify himself and didn't do so, Zimmerman got out of the car to see... A street sign? He's on the neighborhood watch in a complex that has only three streets - the same complex where he's lived for two or three years? Yeah, that makes complete sense. You would think after two or three years he would know every street and every sidewalk.

Zimmerman didn't go to look for a street sign - Zimmerman chased the kid. The kid was running, and Zimmerman went after him. Zimmerman also said - which was part of evidence at the trial - that once Zimmerman found him, Zimmerman "walked towards him". (This was an audio interview that night at the police station; The following day during the video interview he said Martin jumped out of the bushes from behind him and jumped him - yet I don't think anyone could hide behind the bushes I saw in the video.)

Here's how I think this went down... As is plain from the 911 call, Martin was fully aware of Zimmerman and had circled Zimmerman's truck. Zimmerman failed to identify himself in any way - odd, why wouldn't someone of the neighborhood watch ID himself right from the start? Martin continues on his way, talking on the phone, when he notices Zimmerman is now following him on foot. Martin runs; Zimmerman says this on the 911 tape. Zimmerman goes after him. (He wasn't looking for a street sign - He knew what street he was on and Zimmerman knew the street on the other side of the apartments.) Zimmerman got off the phone with 911, pulls out his handgun, and continues to search for the kid. He finds the kid - just yards from his destination - and confronts him. During the police interview that night Zimmerman said "I walked towards him". Martin, who has been followed for over seventeen minutes, who ran from this man, is now confronted by Zimmerman.

Martin did everything right - he fled, and then when confronted, he fought.

Martin didn't attack him from behind; Zimmerman was punched in the face. For all we know Zimmerman attacked first, but being as Martin is dead he can't tell us his side of the story. Zimmerman must have had his firearm out; He clearly didn't pull the firearm out from under him from under his jacket while Martin was on top of him beating him; That's difficult to do without someone beating on you. Martin was on top of him, but Zimmerman wasn't getting this huge beating that they tried to paint at the trial; Zimmerman got a fat lip and two small cuts on the back of his head.

I've had my daughter do more damage to me by accident.

Zimmerman had multiple run ins with the law, and was a wannabe cop - he was about to graduate with a degree in criminal justice and had applied at least once to a police force. Don't tell me he was going to be an attorney; Why would he apply to a police force if he wanted to be an attorney? Why would he be training at a martial arts gym if he didn't want to be a police officer? Someone who wants to be an attorney doesn't join the neighborhood watch, arm himself, and then chase suspects through the dark?

Zimmerman - who was going to the store that night - was armed not only with a handgun, but also two flashlights.... When he left the truck, he had a firearm, a cell phone, and two flashlights? Who the fuck carries two flashlights with them? I mean, other than a police officer.

And the gym... I watched gym owner testify - what kind of bullshit was that? Zimmerman trained for how long, but had never thrown a punch in the gym? How the fuck is that possible? They don't give you ten months of training before throwing the first punch.

I am looking at the flip side of the coin.

Let's say that everything Zimmerman has told us is true. In the end, we have a very standard, run of the mill fist fight. You can't shoot and kill someone because of a fist fight. Help was seconds away; Police were on their way and witnesses and were on the scene seconds after Zimmerman shot Martin. All he had to was hold out another five or ten seconds, and instead of being a national villain he would have been a local hero.

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candyflip

No offense, but you are Canadian. We don't care about your opinion on our politics, just like we don't give a shit about your politics.

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Rochard

Is the race issue becoming worse, or is it because you see things differently after forty years of experience?

You said in the 60's there was race riots, but yet things are worse now than they were forty or fifty years ago? If things were worse, wouldn't people be rioting more often?

It seems to me the older I get the more I see things differently.

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Robbie

Rochard I do have kids.

And your long winded answer never addressed what I said.

IF your daughter had been "Trayvon" and jumped on a guy and started swinging then yes you would be devastated that she was killed.

BUT...on the flip side, you didn't tell me: If that tall, athletic, black, and unarmed 17 year old was beating the shit out of your daughter and she was armed...would you say that she should just lie there and let him beat her as long as he wanted WITHOUT pulling her weapon and putting a hole in him?

Is that what you are saying? Because that's exactly what you suggested that Zimmerman should have done.

Is that what you would want your daughter to do?

I wouldn't. I'd have my daughter shoot him dead.

Just like George Zimmerman's family are glad he is alive and not TM.

You just don't jump on people and start swinging. There are consequences to actions.
And getting out of your car and walking down a street to keep an eye on somebody at night in a neighborhood that was being robbed over and over is exactly what the "neighborhood watch" is supposed to do.

Every neighborhood watch organization that I have ever seen were on foot walking the neighborhood. I'm guessing the only two reasons that GZ was ever in his vehicle are:
A) He's a lazy fuck
B) It was raining.

But jumping someone and beating them down? That is a crime. And if someone did it to your daughter under ANY circumstance...I would hope she is armed and shoots them.

I guess you would rather she just lie there and get beaten and be a "hero". (in an earlier post you suggested that somehow GZ would be a "hero" if he had just laid there getting beaten...didn't know the bar for "hero" was set so low these days)

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

BFT3K

Robbie

A Libertarian is not a Republican no matter how much you try to make it so.

A Libertarian believes in maximum freedom for the individual with central govt. having a minimum impact.

Republicans believe just the opposite. They want to control everything you do.

I was a Democrat because of my social liberalism. But I found that Obama is no different than Bush. Killing people worldwide, spying on us, non-transparent, etc.

There is only one party for a true liberal minded person...Libertarian.
Unlike Republicans and Democrats, I don't need the govt. to tell me how to live my life. I'm a grown man.

But you guys just keep on pretending that it's a "team sport". Rah-rah-rah!
Democrats are great and noble and just smarter than everyone else! And Republicans are all fat, greedy, stupid racists!

Yeah! That's real life!

Fucking sheep. lol

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

baddog

Says who?

Your links are not relevant and this is not YOUR country to take back

Bullshit, no matter how many times you say it, it is bullshit

Not at all, just pointing out how Obama is race baiting

Hate to break it to you, what you "think" means nothing to anyone except you. Try to stick to facts.

What kind of training does a 911 dispatcher get?

Wait, you said "So your argument in the first point is that what the dispatcher said is not what she actually meant? Ah, I see, a code. Well you got me there. I can't win that one dude. I guess my mistake is interpreting the words as per their definitions." yet in the next breath you say "What she said isn't up for debate."

Apparently it is up for debate because what you think she said is not what she said.

Cleo

That pretty much sums it up.

I'm the child of an interracial marriage. I've seen race issues from both sides.

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Vendzilla

If Zimmerman had his gun out, how was Travon able to bash Zimmerman's head on the ground?

<You can insert stupid answer here>

I think Obama has IRS problems, with the new testimony on the hill pointing to Washington giving the orders, he has NSA problems, people don't like to be spied upon, he has people pissed about drone attacks killing innocent people, The unions are now against Obamacare And Homeland security can't even secure the border. Yet he can make several comments about a 17 year old that attacked a neighborhood watch and got more than he was ready for!

So let's ask this, if someone is attacking you, your decision to protect yourself should be weighed carefully and race should be taken into account? Because those protesters sure seems to think that? Crazy world we live in.

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think about that

Sly

Just out of curiosity…

If Joe Blow is on the ground getting his ass beaten to a pulp, what is the proper course of action for Joe Blow at that point in time?

What he did up to the point of getting beaten to a pulp is irrelevant, not only in this case, but in every case. Self-defense is self-defense, not proactive ass kicking.

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TheSquealer

According to Rochard, you're supposed to just lie and wait there, get punched, get your head beat against the concrete and see if you survive and hope for no brain damage. Then just go home. Of course, if your attacker see's your pistol and goes for it... just close your eyes hope for the best.

He doesn't believe anything he's saying. He started out with a very visceral, highly emotional reaction (most likely because he has kids this age) and went with that feeling to determine "Martin is innocent no matter what and Zimmerman is a murderer no matter what"... everything said after the fact is just silliness because he's painted himself into a corner based on feelings, not facts.

Even better... he then is forced into disagreeing, not only with the evidence that was heard, but with the Court, a jury of 5 moms who heard all the evidence, the detectives, the police chief, the FBI, the state prosecutors office and every witness that testified. Kind of a hard spot to argue out of with facts and reason, when there are none. You have no choice but to start inventing them.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

TheSquealer

Everyone has to ignore this obvious fact that all the other weak arguments and opinions disguised as fact, from a legal standpoint have nothing to do with the exact moment the gun came out and the trigger was pulled. All that matters is what constituted a reasonable fear of grave bodily harm or death in Zimmermans eyes. Attempting to argue that everything else matters is necessary since there really is no other argument that doesn't prove Zimmerman did not act in self defense at the EXACT moment he pulled his gun out and used it.

All the other details are just the desperate arguments of someone who has no real legal argument when it comes to who's at fault in the situation. I can't imagine there has been a murder trial in my life where the so many were watching in awe and so many journalists and legal specialists were stunned at the lack of evidence and the poor prosecution of the case.

__________________
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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

Robbie

Rochard said that if you are getting your ass beat...just lie there and let the person beat you until their arms get tired.
And then you are magically a "hero".

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Sly

Well, he was a Marine and has had extensive training. Probably sound advice.

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Robbie

I think ADG and BFTK need to post some more pics of the President looking like a God and juxtapose that with pictures of greedy fat white racist people.

That sure isn't elitist of them now is it?

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

TheSquealer

Marines are well known for laying down and playing dead. It's what they train for. Thats why they always survive bear attacks also.

__________________
.
Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

Dvae

That must be what they taught him in the Marines.

__________________
.
.

Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

Robbie

That's good to know.

I had always thought the Marines were about bravery, honor, and discipline. But Rochard is saying that they are trained to lie down and get beaten and become "heroes"???

Strange world isn't it?

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Sly

I'm giddy with excitement, I can't wait for them to call you a Republican again.

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TheSquealer

I'm headed to the hood right now in neon dolphin shorts and a mesh, half shirt. Just gonna walk into the liquor store, lay there and within a few minutes, i'll become a hero.

__________________
.
Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

anexsia

The trial had nothing to do with "Stand Your Ground" laws, it was a self defense trial.

Dvae

Before Obama was president there were people who said if we would elect a Black president we would no longer have race issues or at the very least would improve. Not only did that not make things better Obama has made things much worse and deliberately so.

When the POTUS says things like "if I had a son he would look like Trayvon" or "that could have been me 35 yrs ago".

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.
.

Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

Rochard

He most likely didn't. Zimmerman had two very small cuts on his head. Clearly his head wasn't wasn't bashed into the pavement at all.

If his head was bashed into the pavement, wouldn't he had been rushed to the hospital for an MRI or a cat scan?

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Rochard

I didn't say that all. I said Zimmerman had other options. His best bet would have been to try to fight Martin off while help arrived. Instead using restraint, he used deadly force when deadly force was clearly not called for.

If he had tried to fight Martin off without shooting him, he might have been a hero instead of having one teenager dead and Zimmerman's life destroyed. Then again, maybe if Martin lived he would have told a completely different story.

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Dvae

I guess a broken nose qualifies as a small cut?

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.
.

Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

Robbie

You're having trouble with the truth brother.

And you still have NOT answered my question:
If your daughter was being hit by a young man for ANY reason and was on the ground with her on top of him:

Would you want her to shoot the guy? Or just lie there like you said Zimmerman should have done and be a "hero"?

What's your answer?

I know what mine would be: I would want my daughter to shoot him.
And if Zimmerman had been a woman...TM wouldn't be talked about in the media as a "child" for goddamn sure.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

EonBlue

If the white side of Obama had a son maybe he would have looked like this kid:

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top...tt-not-guilty/

Funny how this kid was killed under very similar circumstances to Trayvon but for some reason his death has not elicited the same national coverage and outrage and was obviously not worthy of special Presidential attention. I guess a white boy being killed by a black man doesn't fit the race-baiter's narrative.

Obama's next press conference should include this line: "if I had a city it would look like Detroit."

Trend