CCBill Drama? - Help me to understand

[newB]

Before I attempt to escalate this up the chain of command at CCBill, I thought I would get some industry people to weigh in. Perhaps I'm just too close to it for proper perspective.

So I was checking my CCBill stats and I see I got a sale for for $99.98 on 8/1. On 8/3 the total amount was refunded, so that's a wash, no problem. But, then on 8/14 it was charged back, so I - as the referring affiliate - am now in the hole with this sponsor for $99.98. I contacted CCBill about crediting me for that chargeback and was told "Unfortunately, we are unable to reimburse you for this situation since money is already out of our hands and this is basically risk of doing business. I apologize for inconvenience caused but unfortunately we are unable to meet your request."

Shouldn't the payment processor eat that charge or is it normal business to pass that expense along to the affiliate? If I am wrong, fine, but please help me to understand.

Thanks

[rowan]

I'm having trouble understanding the chain of events? Are you back at $0 or do you owe ccbill?

- You were credited $99.98 for a sale
- You were debited $99.98 for a refund
- You were debited a further $99.98 for the chargeback?

[JFK]

Did the sponsor pay you the 99 ?

[newB]

Originally Posted by rowan

I'm having trouble understanding the chain of events? Are you back at $0 or do you owe ccbill?

- You were credited $99.98 for a sale
- You were debited $99.98 for a refund
- You were debited a further $99.98 for the chargeback?

^^^ This. I would be OK with being at $0, but I now owe CCBill $99.98

[rogueteens]

Originally Posted by rowan

I'm having trouble understanding the chain of events? Are you back at $0 or do you owe ccbill?

- You were credited $99.98 for a sale
- You were debited $99.98 for a refund
- You were debited a further $99.98 for the chargeback?

that's how I read it

[BigFurry]

Are you sure the chargeback was for the same member? If there was already a refund, a chargeback doesn't make sense imo.

In the legacy CCBILL stats, if you click on the sale/rebill/chargeback, one of the columns will have a 19 digit numerical ID.

Compare it if it's the same for all.

I have promoted countless CCBILL programs for many years, but haven't seen anything like this.

[newB]

Originally Posted by JFK

Did the sponsor pay you the 99 ?

I'm not sure I know what you're asking. I have not asked them to, as I don't believe that is their responsibility.

[newB]

Originally Posted by BigFurry

Are you sure the chargeback was for the same member? If there was already a refund, a chargeback doesn't make sense imo.

In the legacy CCBILL stats, if you click on the sale/rebill/chargeback, one of the columns will have a 19 digit numerical ID.

Compare it if it's the same for all.

I have promoted countless CCBILL programs for many years, but haven't seen anything like this.

Yes, all three transactions are for the same Subscription ID.

[Axeman]

Sounds like you need to escalate it then. There can't be a refund and a chargeback on the same charge. Somewhere the bank and ccbill lagged in communication of the refund.

[phil-flash]

This happenned to me before on a $200 lifetime signup. Here is what ccbill told me...

That is correct, this subscription 0117072101000029637 was refunded first, and then it was chargebacked.
On 2017-03-23 we received notification from the bank that this particular user has requested chargeback(fraud notification) and to prevent chargeback, our Risk Engineer refunded this transaction with "Fraud" note on it.
However from some reason bank did chargebacked 7 days later as you noticed on 2017-03-30. (Chargeback on 2017-03-30 03:29:48 AM)
The user who submitted chargeback has been blocked in our system, and wouldn't be able to make any purchases through CCBill.
Thank you.

My account rep authorized a reconcile to my account for $200... which finally made the entire thing a wash.

[newB]

Originally Posted by phil-flash

This happenned to me before on a $200 lifetime signup. Here is what ccbill told me...

That is correct, this subscription 0117072101000029637 was refunded first, and then it was chargebacked.
On 2017-03-23 we received notification from the bank that this particular user has requested chargeback(fraud notification) and to prevent chargeback, our Risk Engineer refunded this transaction with "Fraud" note on it.
However from some reason bank did chargebacked 7 days later as you noticed on 2017-03-30. (Chargeback on 2017-03-30 03:29:48 AM)
The user who submitted chargeback has been blocked in our system, and wouldn't be able to make any purchases through CCBill.
Thank you.

My account rep authorized a reconcile to my account for $200... which finally made the entire thing a wash.

Very much like my situation, except the resolution. After asking for the contact info for a superior to the person I had been talking, I got this:

"I can understand that you feel that the double return of the funds, that deducted an additional $99.98 from your account, is unfair. As you have not taken any action to warrant it except refer the customer.

There is no way in preventing a customer from demanding a chargeback from their bank and we rely on banks not to chargeback when refunds have already been issued. Unfortunately these situations sometimes occur and when they do the amounts are deducted from the accounts associated with the transaction. Affiliates partake in the returns in the same percentage as the they do in the sale. We don't have an option to credit your account for the amount that was deducted.

I have CC-ed the Merchant Support Team Lead as you requested this to be referred to a supervisor."

That was last night, and nothing since, so I guess that is their final answer on the matter. It makes me wonder, though, why they made things right for you, but not for me?

[phil-flash]

Persist... and hopefully you wii be credited. They might have to wait for a supervisor to be in house. Last night could have been after normal hours. I am sure they will respond one way or the other.

[BigFurry]

phil-flash is also a merchant I think - they probably don't care as much about simple affiliates

[newB]

Originally Posted by BigFurry

phil-flash is also a merchant I think - they probably don't care as much about simple affiliates

I admit, that's what I was thinking, too.

[rowan]

So if the transaction was reversed twice... who gets the money that the OP 'owes'? The customer? Their bank?

[Jane-Busty.pl]

Originally Posted by rowan

So if the transaction was reversed twice... who gets the money that the OP 'owes'? The customer? Their bank?

We had the exactly same situation for the very first time earlier this year, in May. Now I see 2 more identical cases. And what makes me think is, we are not talking about regular $20, $30 sign ups but $99 or even $200. In our case it was also an amount of $99.
Now, it looks like a system. A cheater is looking for a high value memberships, VOD credits - $99 or higher, purchase them then asks for refund then after a refund charges them back. Who gets the money? The "customer" of course. What You think?

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by Jane-Busty.pl

We had the exactly same situation for the very first time earlier this year, in May. Now I see 2 more identical cases. And what makes me think is, we are not talking about regular $20, $30 sign ups but $99 or even $200. In our case it was also an amount of $99.
Now, it looks like a system. A cheater is looking for a high value memberships, VOD credits - $99 or higher, purchase them then asks for refund then after a refund charges them back. Who gets the money? The "customer" of course. What You think?

I've had the same thing happen only a couple times in the 10 years or so I've been with CCBill.

Whether it's your own merchant account, or a third party biller, scammers can do this, but it's not as easy as you might think.

[Grisey]

supervisor {@ } ccbill dot com

Dont deal with normal support staff, if you go on live chat ask for Rita who is accounts.

Charles who is the supervisor is pretty good.

[rowan]

I'm struggling to understand how a bank could reverse a transaction twice.

[wehateporn]

Originally Posted by rowan

I'm struggling to understand how a bank could reverse a transaction twice.

I believe a refund is requested by the customer, the sponsor/CCBill do this manually, all very civilized

A bank chargeback is forced back by the bank. I don't believe the bank can know if a refund has already been processed by CCBill when they do a chargeback

[MikeAMS]

Originally Posted by newB

^^^ This. I would be OK with being at $0, but I now owe CCBill $99.98

According to VISA and MasterCard rules, a debit transaction should never be credited back to the cardholder twice. It can happen when the acquiring bank does not properly report the "refund" in the system and (for example) issues a new charge instead of an actual refund, that the debited transaction results in a chargeback after all. In our case, Verotel will never take the refund AND the chargeback from you, and obviously, this will be $0 in the end. However, we still charge the initial processing fee for the purchase.

In my opinion, this happens so rarely that perhaps there is a way to settle it! Probably good to contact them!

Good luck!

[SBJ]

yup, it happens more than you think. Had it happen to my old ccbill program a few times and got the same response as you did. It's bullshit that ccbill doesn't try harder to fight the banks but they just don't give a shit if it's not big money.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by wehateporn

I believe a refund is requested by the customer, the sponsor/CCBill do this manually, all very civilized

A bank chargeback is forced back by the bank. I don't believe the bank can know if a refund has already been processed by CCBill when they do a chargeback

You shouldn't talk about topics you know nothing about. Refunds go-to the merchant account in that days batch. I'm not telling how thieves do this scam so don't ask or try to needle more info out of me so you can do the same scam.

[newB]

They are steadfast in their claim that there is nothing they can do. Who knew they were so helpless?

It's just $100, so it's not like it's going to break me. I'm tired of arguing with them about it, so I guess they won.

[Bladewire]

Originally Posted by newB

They are steadfast in their claim that there is nothing they can do. Who knew they were so helpless?

It's just $100, so it's not like it's going to break me. I'm tired of arguing with them about it, so I guess they won.

Did you track down the IP of the scammer on your site via your server logs? Do you redirect or block certain countries, or that bad IP?

This can happen to you with your own merchant account as well and your acquiring bank won't credit you either, as a matter of fact they charge you to challenge a chargeback, $50 I think.

CCBill is your third party processor, not even your acquiring bank, so it doesn't make sense for them to do something that you're own acquiring bank wouldn't do for your own private merchant account.

[newB]

Still pisses me off. How does their decision make a lick of sense? It was THEIR DECISION to refund it before the chargeback, as well as THEIR DECISION to not contest the chargeback.

Of course, why should they? They're just going to make the referring affiliate eat it.

"Nothing we can do" my lily-white ass.

That's all.

[Barry-xlovecam]

You cannot reverse or chargeback the same transaction TWICE.

There is a serious accounting problem here if what you say is correct.
An affiliate would only be liable for his conversion commission (rev-share) the merchant for the net amount he received and the chargeback fees.

So somebody is full-of-shit here

[CaptainHowdy]

That's just messed up ...

[Konda]

This is quite common. It also happens when you run your own merchant accounts. You issue a refund, but around the same time the user also request the money back at the bank directly and you get hit with a chargeback as well. In addition as a merchant you also have to pay the chargeback fee. So if it happens with a $30 transaction you are down like $-60 (plus processing percentage and gateway fees etc.). It's just one of the risks for doing online business.
The money does not go back to the customer twice, the merchant's bank is the one making the money here.

[xXXtesy10]

Originally Posted by BigFurry

phil-flash is also a merchant I think - they probably don't care as much about simple affiliates