New Visa Regs Beg For A Change In Payouts - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

Snake Doctor · 07-10-2003, 07:51 PM

What's funny is that most program owners have been wanting to make changes like these for a long time now.....lower prices, lower payouts, less cross sales/upsales....the problem was if they did it they'd lose their webmaster base to another program.

Now VISA just gave everyone a good reason to do it, and the changes can be made now because EVERYONE has to make them.

Strife · 07-10-2003, 07:51 PM

100...1

Shap · 07-10-2003, 07:58 PM

Let's go back in time
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...pagen umber=2
Read down where Mr Fantasyman himself said

Quote:

By Fantasyman
"Shap you have your facts confused."

When you use free trials, you do not process anything for trials other than an 'open to buy' - during the trial period surfers cancel - still no bank processing. If free trials convert at 50% the only banking done is a lot fewer transactions. This leads to lower chargebacks.

100 free trial sales

50% convert to monthly

You're dealing with only 50 sales - 1/3 that produced by paid trials.

You should really get your facts straight before you make defaming comments.

I guess my facts were right after all Ron.
Free trials are bad for this industry.
Cross sales are bad for this industry.
Pay per signup programs are bad for this industry.

Nobdoy else will say but I will. CyberErotica, ARS, CEN, Silvercash and others have been running scams and questionable business practises for the past 6 years. They've done it to keep up and keep paying the top dollar to their partners. It was a shitty business model to begin with. All marketing no substance. Not one of these companies has a site worth what they charge. That's why we are all screwed right now.

Thanks Guys

Great Job!

Snake Doctor · 07-10-2003, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap

I guess my facts were right after all Ron.
Free trials are bad for this industry.
Cross sales are bad for this industry.
Pay per signup programs are bad for this industry.

Looks like Ron still disagrees with you Shap
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...hreadid=151604

fantasyman · 07-10-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
Let's go back in time
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...pagen umber=2
Read down where Mr Fantasyman himself said

I guess my facts were right after all Ron.
Free trials are bad for this industry.
Cross sales are bad for this industry.
Pay per signup programs are bad for this industry.

Nobdoy else will say but I will. CyberErotica, ARS, CEN, Silvercash and others have been running scams and questionable business practises for the past 6 years. They've done it to keep up and keep paying the top dollar to their partners. It was a shitty business model to begin with. All marketing no substance. Not one of these companies has a site worth what they charge. That's why we are all screwed right now.

Thanks Guys Great Job!

Shap, before you open your yap with false info pleae read this post, I still say the same thing!!

susanna · 07-10-2003, 08:08 PM

Well I think some of the programs should explain why the affiliate payouts being so high was a problem for their business model. I think webmasters are starting to get the wrong idea... that the programs have to reduce the join price to keep under the cb ratio and the programs are just downloading the cut to the webmasters. Thats not the reason that affiliate payouts are changing.

Would some of the big programs that posted here please do a good job of explaining this proper (I wont put words in their mouths)

As well not one person mentioned that a paysite has the DUTY to keep members and make em happy. I firmly believe that a program with more then 25 sites cant POSSIBLY have different members areas in each. I have been in lots of the biggies and each is just a clone of the next with the same big content (the important stuff like movies is just the same plug ins in all the sites) and you cant tell me that a surfer dude that signs up for a site in the same system (well fuck the members areas are so similar across the board) that they dont get pissed off and decide to charge back?

This has happened in the for women area in one program months back... so many chargebacks that it made it impossible to pay the pay per sign up model. They got inside the members areas and all but a small area was different... obviously a surfer is goign to feel pissed off.

The entire industry (except for a few select small niche sites) is based on GET THEM IN THE DOOR and hope they stay more then one month and throw the kitchen sink at them. No pride in providing the niche they want... no pride in providing unique sites. No pride in the members areas.

Members areas have to be worth it for people to say okay I had enough but it was worth my time.

and no charge backs

I challenge the big guys who have posted here to talk about their members areas too. 100+ sites? you cant possibly have unique sites and avoid surfer dude from getting into more then one of them and being pissed.

Shap · 07-10-2003, 08:10 PM

It's funny. You don't see
Scoreland changing their payouts or tours.
Your don't see Danni Ashe worrying about anything?
How about ATK? No worries there.
Karups? No worries.
Denys? No worries.

Notice the trend? It's called Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y. Maybe you guys should look it up. Stop worrying about you damn payouts. Spend a few months beefing up your generic sites and add some quality. Treat your clients with respect. Maybe then you wouldn't be on a watch list. I'm amazed people are congratulating Marc De for making a post. HAHAHAHAH ARS Is the number 1 enemy to the industry at large. They've got ibill in a HUGE hole. They are putting epoch in that same hole, which is why they won't allow ibill clients. What is there to congratulate? You guys can stop the ass kissing now, you are kissing the wrong top dog.

I've got no beef with ARS or the others. This is just the damn truth. Anybody who doesn't believe me, read over the new Epoch restrictions. NO Free Trials, LOWER Cross Sells, and encouraging NO PPS programs. It's time people open their eyes and treat this industry like a fuckin business.

Shap · 07-10-2003, 08:15 PM

Sure Ron. Besides, I thought you didn't own CE anymore and your contract is almost up. So you've got nothing to worry about what I post. If they still have free trials come Dec 31st then i'll shut my yap. My guess is CE will put jettis out of business or stop free trials before then.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 08:16 PM

Lets not just sit around and point fingers and sponsor programs as being the evil that has caused all of this. Do you know how many chargebacks are webmaster fraud and consumer fraud?

There were companies with VERY Shady business practices but to lump every single PPS sponsor together as being scam artists is ridiculous.

The fact is this industry HAS needed this change. Lenny2 you are right. This simply helped force a model change that is very badly needed. Unfortunately this is but a minor change of the still larger change that must take place. At least it is a step in the right direction.

Competition drove this industry where it is. Webmasters wanting more and more per sign up, webmaster programs pushing and pushing and trying to do all they could to achieve profitability while paying more and more. It was a self destructive situation that will hopefully begin to repair itself.

ThePornGuy · 07-10-2003, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quiet

because cb's do not show up for months after the initial charge.

Oh, good point

Rorschach · 07-10-2003, 08:19 PM

How does this affect the BYOT style programs? One would expect that they would be a prime target for chargebacks, considering that most of the tours are pretty much 100% lies.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 08:21 PM

shap - don't talk unless you know what you are talking about. If you have no beef with me than don't post your assumptions that we put ibill in a crunch and are putting Epoch there as well.

The facts are we HELP ibill and it was their own fault they did what they did with a nameless other client. Also we don't do business with Epoch so how exactly are we doing the same to them.

Stop trying to point the finger at the big bad sponsor programs. I can appreciate you spiel on quality. There is some truth to that but there is also truth in saying some of the larger companies do have some nice members areas with LOADS of content.

This business is about pushing traffic and making money from that traffic. Its about the mouse trap - quality and quantity must ride a fine line

Last time I checked I (and many others) are in this business to make money, not to offer surfers with the greatest self gratifucating orgasm of their life. Nudity and sexual arousal is the name of the game - again I go back to my quality and quantity statement.

x3guide · 07-10-2003, 08:23 PM

Great posts shap

Seen many of the member areas of pretty much all the big sponsors sites at some point. Shaking my head at all those who run multiple "niche" sites that either contain incredibly little or fuck all that corresponds with the niche. Many of'em are being re-done right now, I take it

susanna · 07-10-2003, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc De
Competition drove this industry where it is. Webmasters wanting more and more per sign up, webmaster programs pushing and pushing and trying to do all they could to achieve profitability while paying more and more. It was a self destructive situation that will hopefully begin to repair itself.

With the trends of programs to host galleries, sites even avs sites now why do programs keep spending so much money on luring webmasters? Why the webmaster show costs? Why the board advertising? Why not hire freelancers and make all the sites you need? You control it all. Course you have no one to blame if it all goes wrong but heck atleast you control it all. No weak link as it seems to be implied here LOL

I do have affiliate programs but I am content with the select few that find me and are quality webmasters. We make a connection and we do very good business together. Its like having a commission sales person on staff vs. an affiliate program full of the newbies scammers and a few good webmasters.

BlackCrayon · 07-10-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
Instead of repeating what has already been said. I'll be quick & concise.

Ditto. It's time that payouts went down.

are quickbuck going to lower payouts as well? i assume that you will lower the price you charge surfers if thats the case?

susanna · 07-10-2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc De
This business is about pushing traffic and making money from that traffic. Its about the mouse trap - quality and quantity must ride a fine line Last time I checked I (and many others) are in this business to make money, not to offer surfers with the greatest self gratifucating orgasm of their life. Nudity and sexual arousal is the name of the game - again I go back to my quality and quantity statement.

WOW. I guess thats macdonalds motto too... explains why I dispise the food there LMAO but heck the toys are good and that gets most families in the door. Lets forget the fact that you get what you wanted ... quick food... good service. I guess paysites dont need to actually entertain?

And hold on a second here... we were talking quality paysites... offering something different... NOT RIPING A NEW FUCKING ASSHOLE to anyone who thought by the advertising on the tour that there was something pretty cool inside the sites. No one said you had to wack off the surfer yourself.

But who gives a fuck what you thought last month... visa is telling you the new reality... hold that surfer hand in your members area or all the payout changes in the world will NOT help you keep chargebacks down. I am not talking about huge ass changes... just subtle things.

I think amateur sites are about to RULE!!!!!

Shap · 07-10-2003, 08:32 PM

Hey Marc. If you aren't using Epoch. Then sorry. I went to all petite and saw epoch there. My bad.

The industry pushed everybody to build the better mouse trap. To come up with the better scam. It's just a fact. The guys who got rich and had the biggest programs had some of the biggest scams. As a result the whole industry is blackballed right now. I worked for xpics. My partner worked for IEG. We saw first hand the rotten scams going on in this industry. We both left those companies and treated our surfers and members with respect in order to build long term relationships with them. We followed the ATK/Karups/Danni business model. Treat each member like a member, not like a credit card. To each their own. The only problem is the high transaction high risk clients put us all at risk. At risk from visa and at risk of our processor going out of business.

If you aren't one of the problems, then my bad. You've got nothing to worry about. However I find it hard to believe, you can say with a straight face, that ARS' chargeback rate (at ibill) has been under 2.5% all year long.

Snake Doctor · 07-10-2003, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
It's funny. You don't see
Scoreland changing their payouts or tours.
Your don't see Danni Ashe worrying about anything?
How about ATK? No worries there.
Karups? No worries.
Denys? No worries.

Shap, I'll agree that all of the sites you just mentioned are high quality sites.

BUT

None of them were paying $35 per trial signup either. Half of the sites you listed don't even offer trials, that makes it a totally different ballgame.

Pay per sign up attracts fraudulent webmasters and their fraudulent advertising which increases chargebacks.

Webmasters promoting partnerships have a vested interest in their surfers rebilling at the sites they join, so they tend to advertise them differently.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 08:37 PM

susanna - again, processors and sponsors alike (folks with volumes of data) will tell you that a majority of chargebacks are realated to webmaster and consumer fraud.

The biggest TRUE problem (that we can no solve) is the chargeback policy and procedures of the card associations. Unfortunately we have no control of that and can only work in our sphere of influence.

Playing the numbers game, you go with what proves to have less chargebacks. Those are, pay-for add ons (not freebies), no free trials, and a lower monthly price point.

I don't own or operate paysites, but I know that there is 24 / 7 customer service, online help desk, LOADS of content, and proper disclosure at all points for surfers experience at Global InterMedia's paysites. There isn't a whole lot more you can do than that.

Brown Bear · 07-10-2003, 08:39 PM

I agree with Shap. Have you ever been inside an ARS site? That shit isn't worth $9.99 let alone $39.99.

It's all hype and no substance.

and here is what Marc De always answers this type of claim with:

"ARS doesn't own or run any of the sites it promotes"

Thats the biggest pile 'o crap excuse I've ever heard. As if Marc doesn't have the phone number for the folks at Global Intermedia on speed dial. I'm fairly sure they might have 5 minutes to listen to the guy that brings them 50,000 members a month.

I'm not surprised that ARS will have to lower its payouts because it's chargeback ratio is too high. If I was a surfer who joined an ARS site and forgot to cancel the trial, I'd chargeback too.

I'm not saying ARS didn't have a good money making business model, but I will agree that the big programs like ARS are a contributing factor into the Visa crackdown we're seeing now.

chupacabra · 07-10-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

I think amateur sites are about to RULE!!!!!

after following this thread and the related announcements as of late, and looking back to last oct/nov during the infamous 'the sky is falling and its VISA's fault' incident, i find one thing incredibly ironic... back when everyone was freaking out about VISA's "sponsored merchant" edict, most seemed to think that it was the small paysite operations that were being unfairly targeted and squeezed so badly... now w/ this latest commandment handed down from VISA, it seems the large programs and high-volume operations are in much worse danger then the mom/pop shops ever were..

KRL · 07-10-2003, 08:41 PM

This new development will clearly benefit small and medium sized independent niche sites. Webmasters will no longer be so quick to send traffic to the major sponsors because the $35-$45 carrot is going bye bye.

Everyone should just go to rev share only now. It'd be the smartest thing to do.

This industry is very resilient and filled with incredibly creative, bright, and innovative minds and expect to see lots of newly developed sponsor work arounds and marketing gimmicks in the months ahead to compete for your more valuable than ever traffic.

eRock · 07-10-2003, 08:41 PM

So it's about time to switch all your sponsors to % instead of PPSU....

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 08:43 PM

shap - glad to feel like I'm not in your 'line of fire' so to speak

In regards to my chargeback rate with ibill - a couple of things.

1.) We don't own or operate any paysites, other companies do that and are our clients for the sale of traffic

2.) We have to work WITH them to allow them to meet any guidelines and policies they may have (in how traffic is sent, etc...)

3.) It is iBill's job to manage chargeback rates as much as it is their clients.

I know that at any point of a transaction we are involved it there is ALWAYS ethical business practice and proper disclosure. We don't do business with shady people and won't be involved in shay business practices.

Lets just agree on one thing, this industry has done this to ITSELF. Sponsors, billing companies, webmasters, and even the customers have brought us where we are. Now it takes TRUE leaders to attempt to correct our misguided direction and bring us back to where we SHOULD be

I wish for a day when there are no trials period and its all about getting surfers to PAY for what they use...

Shap · 07-10-2003, 08:45 PM

Lenny,

I agree -- however i believe danni pays $30 per signup.

The problem is Pay Per Signup programs. I'm not saying these big guys are scammers intentionally. However, their whole business model is built around screwing someone over. Whether it's webmasters, surfers, processors, someone is getting fucked but one person not getting fucked is Visa. Epoch said it best, pps business model is not one they encourage. It's simple. It attracts the wrong people to do business with you. Open up a partnership program and stand behind your product. Dump free trials, dump trials, dump cross sales. Those are the people you want to do business with. They aren't scrambling, it's business as usual for them. The only exception, if they are like us, is the damage this will do to the processors. We aren't worried about our CB level. We are worried as to whether we will watch our processor go under.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 08:45 PM

Brown Bear - you eve send traffic to a pay per sign up program ? If so add yourself to the list of contributors and don't be so quick to point your finger.

BTW - just cuz you wouldn't want to get your rocks off to a Global site doesn't mean others won't. I bet you and I don't like the same exact music, movies, or food. I appreciate your opinion but that is all it is

Also, only 50,000 members / mo ? Better rework that assumption LOL

Brown Bear · 07-10-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chupacabra
it seems the large programs and high-volume operations are in much worse danger then the mom/pop shops ever were..

I agree

KRL · 07-10-2003, 08:48 PM

Also, I'd expect to see one or more of the large sponsors go under in the months ahead. When traffic is reduced to their sites, the cb ratios are going to look incredibly high as sales plummet.

Be very, very careful with your money if you're sending the bulk of your traffic to just one sponsor. I'd immediately spread your flow around to several so you're not as vulnerable to any single sponsor. The cash flow situation could get stressed for even some of the big players. Don't get left holding the bag.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 08:49 PM

KRL - I agree with you whole heartedly on innovative minds and new marketing schemes to get traffic. Don't think just because we are trying to correct a downward spiral doesn't mean we don't have some innovative stuff up our sleeves

Hell our corp name is Innovative Ideas hehe

BTW - shap the same stuff you are criticizing the same stuff we are trying to STOP!!! So, show a little faith and see the good that is being attempted here. Visa has forced our hand, but it has also opened a window of opportunity for those true market leaders to try and stop things that perhaps never should have happened. I hope you understand where I'm coming from

Brown Bear · 07-10-2003, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc De
Brown Bear - you eve send traffic to a pay per sign up program ? If so add yourself to the list of contributors and don't be so quick to point your finger.

BTW - just cuz you wouldn't want to get your rocks off to a Global site doesn't mean others won't. I bet you and I don't like the same exact music, movies, or food. I appreciate your opinion but that is all it is

Also, only 50,000 members / mo ? Better rework that assumption LOL

Yup, I have sent traffic to PPS progs in the past, but I got out of that years ago and now I run multiple paysites where the chargeback rate is under 0.60% So I guess I was guilty then, but at least I saw the error of my ways and changed.

So 50,000 members a month is way off? Care to enlighten us with some more accurate figures of how many signups a month ARS does?

Shap · 07-10-2003, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Marc De Said

BTW - shap the same stuff you are criticizing the same stuff we are trying to STOP!!! So, show a little faith and see the good that is being attempted here. Visa has forced our hand, but it has also opened a window of opportunity for those true market leaders to try and stop things that perhaps never should have happened. I hope you understand where I'm coming from

I totally agree. Over the next 6 months we will see who the good guys are. The truth is about to come out in a really big way. Not only for sponsors, but for processors as well. And to be honest that scares us more than anything. The fact that epoch has banned ibill has to have you more than a little nervous. It definitely doesn't paint a pretty picture for ibill. I've spent the last 6 months watching the processors and of the big 4 i must say CCbill seems to be the safest bet BY FAR!

Snake Doctor · 07-10-2003, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
Lenny,

I agree -- however i believe danni pays $30 per signup.

The problem is Pay Per Signup programs. I'm not saying these big guys are scammers intentionally. However, their whole business model is built around screwing someone over. Whether it's webmasters, surfers, processors, someone is getting fucked but one person not getting fucked is Visa. Epoch said it best, pps business model is not one they encourage. It's simple. It attracts the wrong people to do business with you. Open up a partnership program and stand behind your product. Dump free trials, dump trials, dump cross sales. Those are the people you want to do business with. They aren't scrambling, it's business as usual for them. The only exception, if they are like us, is the damage this will do to the processors. We aren't worried about our CB level. We are worried as to whether we will watch our processor go under.

I was actually worried about the same thing myself....my top sponsor has a 0.2% CB ratio, but that won't do me any good if the processor goes tits up and I lose my rebills.

I was told that with the new visa regs (the ones that required everyone to register their company and urls)
IPSP's processes for sponsored merchants.
VISA will tell the IPSP to stop processing for YOU if you're out of compliance, and as long as they do that they'll still be good to process for everyone else.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 08:57 PM

shap - they banned ibill for a lot of personal reasons that have sparked from business interests. I know the issues they have with ibill and frankly I have them too. They aren't banning them because of any other reason.

This isn't doom and gloom and this isn't the end of anything...

This business will go on, hopefully the next few months will show a lot of clean up and we can look back at these few days as the turning point of the things to come

Shap · 07-10-2003, 09:00 PM

I hear you Lenny. Let's hope that's the case. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Visa saw a trend for certain IPSPs having a larger percentage of clients in violation and in turn fining them. I've done research on everyone of our chargebacks for the past few months. We have found a MUCH higher level of fraud going thru ibill. I can't see Visa letting processors pad their pockets with CB fines (imposed by the processors themselves) and processing fees for scrubbing less. They'll have to make sure the IPSPs are doing whatever they can to avoid chargebacks.

Lensman · 07-10-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
Lenny,

I agree -- however i believe danni pays $30 per signup.

The problem is Pay Per Signup programs. I'm not saying these big guys are scammers intentionally. However, their whole business model is built around screwing someone over. Whether it's webmasters, surfers, processors, someone is getting fucked but one person not getting fucked is Visa. Epoch said it best, pps business model is not one they encourage. It's simple. It attracts the wrong people to do business with you. Open up a partnership program and stand behind your product. Dump free trials, dump trials, dump cross sales. Those are the people you want to do business with. They aren't scrambling, it's business as usual for them. The only exception, if they are like us, is the damage this will do to the processors. We aren't worried about our CB level. We are worried as to whether we will watch our processor go under.

Shap, you are 100% wrong.

Danni's Karups, etc. don't have a chargeback issue (maybe) because they have almost no affiliate program. Yes, they have a program, but not many webmasters use it.

The issue is the larger per-signup guys, like us, that have a competitive payout and have to have trials to convert the traffic. Then we have to maximize the revenue to keep the payouts high so webmasters will still send traffic. Those smaller guys don't do any of that.

Mike, Marc, Roger, and the rest are doing the right thing.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 09:04 PM

shap - ibill's legacy system was a HUGE cause of problems. Have you been using their Nex Gen system at all? Much cleaner...

psyko514 · 07-10-2003, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc De
This business is about pushing traffic and making money from that traffic. Its about the mouse trap - quality and quantity must ride a fine line Last time I checked I (and many others) are in this business to make money, not to offer surfers with the greatest self gratifucating orgasm of their life. Nudity and sexual arousal is the name of the game - again I go back to my quality and quantity statement.

Wow... that's a horrible thing to say. You've basically said you're not interested in repeat customers. You want to grab the surfer, cram a few overused pics and plugins down his throat, milk him for all you can and then move onto the next person. And you wonder why you have chargebacks?

Any business is about making money. But you need customers to make money. And to make more money, you need to keep the customer happy.

You just basically admitted that you're solely interested in fucking over your customer for a few bucks.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 09:05 PM

Lens - good to see you around. So my burning question to you? What will you be lowering your payouts to? LOL j/k

Will you continue to charge $39.99 per month? Will you lower that monthly rate and in turn adjust your payout to remain profitable?

Lensman · 07-10-2003, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shap
Lenny,

I agree -- however i believe danni pays $30 per signup.

Danni doesn't do trials. Full signups convert 25 - 33% of what trials do.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 09:08 PM

psyko514 - I didn't admit that at all. First of all my customers are WEBMASTERS, not surfers. I don't own or operate paysites, those companies are my clients!

Secondly, everyone person on the face of the planet owning a business (all for profit businesses) are in business to MAKE MONEY!!! Are you telling me you really got in this business with the goal in mind of giving guys the absolute best 'whack it' material? C'mon ... You got in this business to turn a buck.

That said, I am a COMPLETE consumer advocate, and as long as you offer a product for a price they are willing to pay, you are doing a good job. If they don't want it, they won't buy it! Just be ethical in your business practices!

Lensman · 07-10-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc De
Lens - good to see you around. So my burning question to you? What will you be lowering your payouts to? LOL j/k

Will you continue to charge $39.99 per month? Will you lower that monthly rate and in turn adjust your payout to remain profitable?

Great to have Marc's insight on this. We should chat on the phone tomorrow about biz.

And yes, we will be lowering most rebills. We will also be announcing a new program and new payouts before Internext.

Shap · 07-10-2003, 09:09 PM

Lens I never said Danni had trials. I said she pays $30 per signup. Is a non trial signup no longer a signup?

The point is the PPS business model is ALL WRONG! That's it.

Brown Bear · 07-10-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

Wow... that's a horrible thing to say. You've basically said you're not interested in repeat customers. You want to grab the surfer, cram a few overused pics and plugins down his throat, milk him for all you can and then move onto the next person. And you wonder why you have chargebacks?

Any business is about making money. But you need customers to make money. And to make more money, you need to keep the customer happy.

You just basically admitted that you're solely interested in fucking over your customer for a few bucks.

I don't think Marc really wants to fuck the surfer, but the ARS/Global paysites certainly aren't worth what they're charging.

Carrie · 07-10-2003, 09:10 PM

I can't believe so many people are trembling and moaning about payouts going down.

I see these announcements and I think "You mean we're no longer going to train the surfer that he gets to see the good stuff for free? We're going to tell him that he has to pay for it?
HOT DAMN, BABY! COUNT ME IN!!"

Then again, I get excited over change - I see it as an opening of opportunities, not an ending of what was there before.

Big thumbs up to Silvercash and ARS for being the first ones to step forward and lead the industry in a positive direction.

Lensman · 07-10-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brown Bear

I don't think Marc really wants to fuck the surfer, but the ARS/Global paysites certainly aren't worth what they're charging.

Are you saying there's not enough there to whack off too? I've been to their sites, and there's a year's worth of orgasm's in there.

You can every naked pic on earth in a site, and some people will still say it's not enough.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 09:12 PM

Brown Bear - thus the price change down to $29.99

I hope for a time when we have no trials and even lower monthly fees - but at the same time we MUST be competitive.

Also realize there are OTHER methods than recurring to do this. Be on the lookout, we have something new on the horizon to battle this very issue

Lens - hit me on ICQ 46972932 We will chat

shap - we pay $50 for monthly memberships. I would offer all monthly memberships if I could remain competitive. However, the value per click in return of offering now trials would make my program obsolete!

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 09:14 PM

Carrie - you obtain a very crucial element in the key to success.

Perception is reality. If you perceive everything to be bad, it will be. If you can find the good in any situation, you can manipulate that to your advantage and gain from it. Its the difference between top shelf and the well

Brown Bear · 07-10-2003, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie
Big thumbs up to Silvercash and ARS for being the first ones to step forward and lead the industry in a positive direction.

How are they leading the industry in a positive direction? They're being FORCED to change their ways. That isn't leadership, it's called covering your ass so Visa doesn't bend them over and fuck them for good.

Marc De · 07-10-2003, 09:17 PM

Brown Bear - its industry leading because we are trying to correct some of the self imposed problems WE ALL HAVE CREATED. It takes a leader to stand up and say we are going to make changes and those changes are going cause us to lower payouts and even though that may not help our competitive standing we will do it anyways. Its for the good of us and this industry.

Could you seriously not read that or would you prefer to just continue hating and blaming... ?

Brown Bear · 07-10-2003, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lensman

Are you saying there's not enough there to whack off too? I've been to their sites, and there's a year's worth of orgasm's in there.

You can every naked pic on earth in a site, and some people will still say it's not enough.

Lensman, are you saying quantity is better than quality? They might have a lot of content, but it's crappy quality and its mostly non-exclusive content.

07-10-2003, 07:51 PM	#101
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	What's funny is that most program owners have been wanting to make changes like these for a long time now.....lower prices, lower payouts, less cross sales/upsales....the problem was if they did it they'd lose their webmaster base to another program. Now VISA just gave everyone a good reason to do it, and the changes can be made now because EVERYONE has to make them. __________________ sig too big

07-10-2003, 07:51 PM	#102
Strife Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 4,534	100...1 __________________ Buy & Sell Ads on The Most Sexy Advertising Network on the Planet Last edited by Strife; 07-10-2003 at 07:55 PM..

07-10-2003, 08:10 PM	#107
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	It's funny. You don't see Scoreland changing their payouts or tours. Your don't see Danni Ashe worrying about anything? How about ATK? No worries there. Karups? No worries. Denys? No worries. Notice the trend? It's called Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y. Maybe you guys should look it up. Stop worrying about you damn payouts. Spend a few months beefing up your generic sites and add some quality. Treat your clients with respect. Maybe then you wouldn't be on a watch list. I'm amazed people are congratulating Marc De for making a post. HAHAHAHAH ARS Is the number 1 enemy to the industry at large. They've got ibill in a HUGE hole. They are putting epoch in that same hole, which is why they won't allow ibill clients. What is there to congratulate? You guys can stop the ass kissing now, you are kissing the wrong top dog. I've got no beef with ARS or the others. This is just the damn truth. Anybody who doesn't believe me, read over the new Epoch restrictions. NO Free Trials, LOWER Cross Sells, and encouraging NO PPS programs. It's time people open their eyes and treat this industry like a fuckin business. Last edited by Shap; 07-10-2003 at 08:16 PM..

07-10-2003, 08:23 PM	#113
x3guide Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: lake titicaca Posts: 735	Great posts shap Seen many of the member areas of pretty much all the big sponsors sites at some point. Shaking my head at all those who run multiple "niche" sites that either contain incredibly little or fuck all that corresponds with the niche. Many of'em are being re-done right now, I take it __________________ Shomer fuckin shabbas

07-10-2003, 08:39 PM	#120
Brown Bear Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	I agree with Shap. Have you ever been inside an ARS site? That shit isn't worth $9.99 let alone $39.99. It's all hype and no substance. and here is what Marc De always answers this type of claim with: "ARS doesn't own or run any of the sites it promotes" Thats the biggest pile 'o crap excuse I've ever heard. As if Marc doesn't have the phone number for the folks at Global Intermedia on speed dial. I'm fairly sure they might have 5 minutes to listen to the guy that brings them 50,000 members a month. I'm not surprised that ARS will have to lower its payouts because it's chargeback ratio is too high. If I was a surfer who joined an ARS site and forgot to cancel the trial, I'd chargeback too. I'm not saying ARS didn't have a good money making business model, but I will agree that the big programs like ARS are a contributing factor into the Visa crackdown we're seeing now. __________________ Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

07-10-2003, 08:08 PM	#106
susanna Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 81	Well I think some of the programs should explain why the affiliate payouts being so high was a problem for their business model. I think webmasters are starting to get the wrong idea... that the programs have to reduce the join price to keep under the cb ratio and the programs are just downloading the cut to the webmasters. Thats not the reason that affiliate payouts are changing. Would some of the big programs that posted here please do a good job of explaining this proper (I wont put words in their mouths) As well not one person mentioned that a paysite has the DUTY to keep members and make em happy. I firmly believe that a program with more then 25 sites cant POSSIBLY have different members areas in each. I have been in lots of the biggies and each is just a clone of the next with the same big content (the important stuff like movies is just the same plug ins in all the sites) and you cant tell me that a surfer dude that signs up for a site in the same system (well fuck the members areas are so similar across the board) that they dont get pissed off and decide to charge back? This has happened in the for women area in one program months back... so many chargebacks that it made it impossible to pay the pay per sign up model. They got inside the members areas and all but a small area was different... obviously a surfer is goign to feel pissed off. The entire industry (except for a few select small niche sites) is based on GET THEM IN THE DOOR and hope they stay more then one month and throw the kitchen sink at them. No pride in providing the niche they want... no pride in providing unique sites. No pride in the members areas. Members areas have to be worth it for people to say okay I had enough but it was worth my time. and no charge backs I challenge the big guys who have posted here to talk about their members areas too. 100+ sites? you cant possibly have unique sites and avoid surfer dude from getting into more then one of them and being pissed.

07-10-2003, 08:15 PM	#108
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Sure Ron. Besides, I thought you didn't own CE anymore and your contract is almost up. So you've got nothing to worry about what I post. If they still have free trials come Dec 31st then i'll shut my yap. My guess is CE will put jettis out of business or stop free trials before then.

07-10-2003, 08:16 PM	#109
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	Lets not just sit around and point fingers and sponsor programs as being the evil that has caused all of this. Do you know how many chargebacks are webmaster fraud and consumer fraud? There were companies with VERY Shady business practices but to lump every single PPS sponsor together as being scam artists is ridiculous. The fact is this industry HAS needed this change. Lenny2 you are right. This simply helped force a model change that is very badly needed. Unfortunately this is but a minor change of the still larger change that must take place. At least it is a step in the right direction. Competition drove this industry where it is. Webmasters wanting more and more per sign up, webmaster programs pushing and pushing and trying to do all they could to achieve profitability while paying more and more. It was a self destructive situation that will hopefully begin to repair itself.

07-10-2003, 08:19 PM	#111
Rorschach So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 5,579	How does this affect the BYOT style programs? One would expect that they would be a prime target for chargebacks, considering that most of the tours are pretty much 100% lies.

07-10-2003, 08:21 PM	#112
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	shap - don't talk unless you know what you are talking about. If you have no beef with me than don't post your assumptions that we put ibill in a crunch and are putting Epoch there as well. The facts are we HELP ibill and it was their own fault they did what they did with a nameless other client. Also we don't do business with Epoch so how exactly are we doing the same to them. Stop trying to point the finger at the big bad sponsor programs. I can appreciate you spiel on quality. There is some truth to that but there is also truth in saying some of the larger companies do have some nice members areas with LOADS of content. This business is about pushing traffic and making money from that traffic. Its about the mouse trap - quality and quantity must ride a fine line Last time I checked I (and many others) are in this business to make money, not to offer surfers with the greatest self gratifucating orgasm of their life. Nudity and sexual arousal is the name of the game - again I go back to my quality and quantity statement.

07-10-2003, 08:32 PM	#117
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Hey Marc. If you aren't using Epoch. Then sorry. I went to all petite and saw epoch there. My bad. The industry pushed everybody to build the better mouse trap. To come up with the better scam. It's just a fact. The guys who got rich and had the biggest programs had some of the biggest scams. As a result the whole industry is blackballed right now. I worked for xpics. My partner worked for IEG. We saw first hand the rotten scams going on in this industry. We both left those companies and treated our surfers and members with respect in order to build long term relationships with them. We followed the ATK/Karups/Danni business model. Treat each member like a member, not like a credit card. To each their own. The only problem is the high transaction high risk clients put us all at risk. At risk from visa and at risk of our processor going out of business. If you aren't one of the problems, then my bad. You've got nothing to worry about. However I find it hard to believe, you can say with a straight face, that ARS' chargeback rate (at ibill) has been under 2.5% all year long.

07-10-2003, 08:37 PM	#119
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	susanna - again, processors and sponsors alike (folks with volumes of data) will tell you that a majority of chargebacks are realated to webmaster and consumer fraud. The biggest TRUE problem (that we can no solve) is the chargeback policy and procedures of the card associations. Unfortunately we have no control of that and can only work in our sphere of influence. Playing the numbers game, you go with what proves to have less chargebacks. Those are, pay-for add ons (not freebies), no free trials, and a lower monthly price point. I don't own or operate paysites, but I know that there is 24 / 7 customer service, online help desk, LOADS of content, and proper disclosure at all points for surfers experience at Global InterMedia's paysites. There isn't a whole lot more you can do than that.

07-10-2003, 08:41 PM	#122
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	This new development will clearly benefit small and medium sized independent niche sites. Webmasters will no longer be so quick to send traffic to the major sponsors because the $35-$45 carrot is going bye bye. Everyone should just go to rev share only now. It'd be the smartest thing to do. This industry is very resilient and filled with incredibly creative, bright, and innovative minds and expect to see lots of newly developed sponsor work arounds and marketing gimmicks in the months ahead to compete for your more valuable than ever traffic. __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains

07-10-2003, 08:41 PM	#123
eRock Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Chi-town Posts: 3,112	So it's about time to switch all your sponsors to % instead of PPSU.... __________________ Swiftwill Hosting

07-10-2003, 08:43 PM	#124
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	shap - glad to feel like I'm not in your 'line of fire' so to speak In regards to my chargeback rate with ibill - a couple of things. 1.) We don't own or operate any paysites, other companies do that and are our clients for the sale of traffic 2.) We have to work WITH them to allow them to meet any guidelines and policies they may have (in how traffic is sent, etc...) 3.) It is iBill's job to manage chargeback rates as much as it is their clients. I know that at any point of a transaction we are involved it there is ALWAYS ethical business practice and proper disclosure. We don't do business with shady people and won't be involved in shay business practices. Lets just agree on one thing, this industry has done this to ITSELF. Sponsors, billing companies, webmasters, and even the customers have brought us where we are. Now it takes TRUE leaders to attempt to correct our misguided direction and bring us back to where we SHOULD be I wish for a day when there are no trials period and its all about getting surfers to PAY for what they use...

07-10-2003, 08:45 PM	#125
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Lenny, I agree -- however i believe danni pays $30 per signup. The problem is Pay Per Signup programs. I'm not saying these big guys are scammers intentionally. However, their whole business model is built around screwing someone over. Whether it's webmasters, surfers, processors, someone is getting fucked but one person not getting fucked is Visa. Epoch said it best, pps business model is not one they encourage. It's simple. It attracts the wrong people to do business with you. Open up a partnership program and stand behind your product. Dump free trials, dump trials, dump cross sales. Those are the people you want to do business with. They aren't scrambling, it's business as usual for them. The only exception, if they are like us, is the damage this will do to the processors. We aren't worried about our CB level. We are worried as to whether we will watch our processor go under.

07-10-2003, 08:45 PM	#126
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	Brown Bear - you eve send traffic to a pay per sign up program ? If so add yourself to the list of contributors and don't be so quick to point your finger. BTW - just cuz you wouldn't want to get your rocks off to a Global site doesn't mean others won't. I bet you and I don't like the same exact music, movies, or food. I appreciate your opinion but that is all it is Also, only 50,000 members / mo ? Better rework that assumption LOL

07-10-2003, 08:48 PM	#128
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	Also, I'd expect to see one or more of the large sponsors go under in the months ahead. When traffic is reduced to their sites, the cb ratios are going to look incredibly high as sales plummet. Be very, very careful with your money if you're sending the bulk of your traffic to just one sponsor. I'd immediately spread your flow around to several so you're not as vulnerable to any single sponsor. The cash flow situation could get stressed for even some of the big players. Don't get left holding the bag. __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains

07-10-2003, 08:49 PM	#129
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	KRL - I agree with you whole heartedly on innovative minds and new marketing schemes to get traffic. Don't think just because we are trying to correct a downward spiral doesn't mean we don't have some innovative stuff up our sleeves Hell our corp name is Innovative Ideas hehe BTW - shap the same stuff you are criticizing the same stuff we are trying to STOP!!! So, show a little faith and see the good that is being attempted here. Visa has forced our hand, but it has also opened a window of opportunity for those true market leaders to try and stop things that perhaps never should have happened. I hope you understand where I'm coming from

07-10-2003, 08:57 PM	#133
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	shap - they banned ibill for a lot of personal reasons that have sparked from business interests. I know the issues they have with ibill and frankly I have them too. They aren't banning them because of any other reason. This isn't doom and gloom and this isn't the end of anything... This business will go on, hopefully the next few months will show a lot of clean up and we can look back at these few days as the turning point of the things to come

07-10-2003, 09:00 PM	#134
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	I hear you Lenny. Let's hope that's the case. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Visa saw a trend for certain IPSPs having a larger percentage of clients in violation and in turn fining them. I've done research on everyone of our chargebacks for the past few months. We have found a MUCH higher level of fraud going thru ibill. I can't see Visa letting processors pad their pockets with CB fines (imposed by the processors themselves) and processing fees for scrubbing less. They'll have to make sure the IPSPs are doing whatever they can to avoid chargebacks.

07-10-2003, 09:04 PM	#136
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	shap - ibill's legacy system was a HUGE cause of problems. Have you been using their Nex Gen system at all? Much cleaner...

07-10-2003, 09:05 PM	#138
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	Lens - good to see you around. So my burning question to you? What will you be lowering your payouts to? LOL j/k Will you continue to charge $39.99 per month? Will you lower that monthly rate and in turn adjust your payout to remain profitable?

07-10-2003, 09:08 PM	#140
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	psyko514 - I didn't admit that at all. First of all my customers are WEBMASTERS, not surfers. I don't own or operate paysites, those companies are my clients! Secondly, everyone person on the face of the planet owning a business (all for profit businesses) are in business to MAKE MONEY!!! Are you telling me you really got in this business with the goal in mind of giving guys the absolute best 'whack it' material? C'mon ... You got in this business to turn a buck. That said, I am a COMPLETE consumer advocate, and as long as you offer a product for a price they are willing to pay, you are doing a good job. If they don't want it, they won't buy it! Just be ethical in your business practices!

07-10-2003, 09:09 PM	#142
Shap Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 8,313	Lens I never said Danni had trials. I said she pays $30 per signup. Is a non trial signup no longer a signup? The point is the PPS business model is ALL WRONG! That's it.

07-10-2003, 09:10 PM	#144
Carrie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Virgin - nee Posts: 3,162	I can't believe so many people are trembling and moaning about payouts going down. I see these announcements and I think "You mean we're no longer going to train the surfer that he gets to see the good stuff for free? We're going to tell him that he has to pay for it? HOT DAMN, BABY! COUNT ME IN!!" Then again, I get excited over change - I see it as an opening of opportunities, not an ending of what was there before. Big thumbs up to Silvercash and ARS for being the first ones to step forward and lead the industry in a positive direction.

07-10-2003, 09:12 PM	#146
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	Brown Bear - thus the price change down to $29.99 I hope for a time when we have no trials and even lower monthly fees - but at the same time we MUST be competitive. Also realize there are OTHER methods than recurring to do this. Be on the lookout, we have something new on the horizon to battle this very issue Lens - hit me on ICQ 46972932 We will chat shap - we pay $50 for monthly memberships. I would offer all monthly memberships if I could remain competitive. However, the value per click in return of offering now trials would make my program obsolete!

07-10-2003, 09:14 PM	#147
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	Carrie - you obtain a very crucial element in the key to success. Perception is reality. If you perceive everything to be bad, it will be. If you can find the good in any situation, you can manipulate that to your advantage and gain from it. Its the difference between top shelf and the well

07-10-2003, 09:17 PM	#149
Marc De Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 632	Brown Bear - its industry leading because we are trying to correct some of the self imposed problems WE ALL HAVE CREATED. It takes a leader to stand up and say we are going to make changes and those changes are going cause us to lower payouts and even though that may not help our competitive standing we will do it anyways. Its for the good of us and this industry. Could you seriously not read that or would you prefer to just continue hating and blaming... ?