Paul Markham

Great post and needs repeating.

You are spot on right when you say "It's just, they can't reliably deliver sales on that traffic any more." As traffic climbed over the last 8 years there has been a clear decline in conversions. But traffic increases hid these worsening ratios and we could find excuses for it and ignored it. Now traffic is falling along with ratios it's clear we need to change.

This obviously leads to the question of why is this business still pushing the subscription model at the join prices we have today?

I saw recently a thread from an affiliate, who I doubt is a whale as these guys don't have to post on GFY to get sponsors. Asking for $65 PPS per sign up. There were sponsors dropping in telling everyone they would pay $100 on joins of the level the affiliate was boasting. When I asked them to explain how they can afford the replies stopped.

The question is still why do we hang onto a system the customer is clearly not buying in the numbers they were?

Moving to Tubes does not fix the problem. Without paysites or VOD sites we can't all open Tube sites, Tubes don't pay for traffic. And if they did not the prices paysites do.

Would we be getting more joins if we had 1,000s of sites with 500 videos on each charging $10 a month, $5 for 10 days and and $2 for 1 day (you can adjust those prices and days accordingly) and limiting BW on a daily basis, unless the customer paid for a Premium Membership. Would we sign up the same numbers or more? Would we earn more or less?

Would affiliates still send traffic?

Thanks for an excellent post.

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bbobby86

"It's just, they can't reliably deliver sales on that traffic any more." Can`t any more...

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Paul Markham

For 6 years and maybe more everyone ignored the fact that ratios were climbing. They found all the excuses they could and ignored the most obvious one that customers were turning away. But it all worked and joins increased.

Then there was an increase in affiliates, then an increase in sites and then the traffic started to go elsewhere and we saw the results. The train hit the buffers.

And since then there has been thousands of threads with countless posts, blaming Tubes, blaming the changing market, blaming the economic crisis (even though the down turn started before), blaming the rip off merchants and blaming what ever else they could think of. Except for the one glaring omission. They never said the customers simply are not willing to buy what they have been buying for years, unless we can force them to buy.

When you lose existing customers from the product, from yourself or others, you know something is very wrong. Now the problem is getting us to face up to it.

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CarlosTheGaucho

Mr Frisky I'll be in touch as soon as I'll cross out my task list for today.

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polish_aristocrat

interesting analogy

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CarlosTheGaucho

well let's call it a scam

scam was making some people money, then the new age scammers came with a solution to scam all the other scammers, so now it's more scamming than ever, and it's affecting every scammer out there

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Paul Markham

There are far more reasons.

Sites 40 scenes with one model, shot by one guy, neither of whom are exceptional.
Sites which spent more time on the tour than the members area.
Sites who thought all you had to do was drive traffic and the sheep would buy.

All had a lot to do with it.

For 8 years it's been drive traffic, drive traffic and then drive more traffic. Spend a fortune on the free stuff, give affiliates everything they ask for and the top money and it will all come good.

Who here would of joined 90% of the sites on the Net or even the sites they promoted?

We hardly ever did because we did not think they were worth it. But we expected the surfers to join. And still the problem goes on. Serious question and you know the answer.

What will get the most sign ups from affiliates today. Pay them $50 PPS or spend that money on more and better content? Yes some sites do both, few can afford to. Most we know spend more on traffic. Well the merry go round has gone full circle and the members are getting off the ride.

No matter what you do to drive more you will end up with less in todays market.

No matter how many times people post threads about changing few will.

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CarlosTheGaucho

Paul, let me add a couple comments and some moderate and healthy opposition:

Doesn't matter if the end user can't compare, does matter when he CAN compare

True, and they still convert at the same ratio as those that spend the same time with the members area, doing more harm than good

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I would love to be again in the situation when all surfers are sheep


And now it's the same - those who have traffic, even if they totally forgot what effectivity and common sense is, are kicking anyone's ass

Give me that traffic and I'll see a VERY wealthy man in the mirror

How many affiliates even care to check what clusterfuck their surfers go through by signing up and if there's not actual shit in the members area?

Expectations used to be reality in those days

Does preffering doing 50 PPS mean many affiliates are sheep as well?



Spend more on traffic?

How much time and resources do you spend in average on recruiting an affiliate who can send real traffic?

How much do you spend per 1000 uniques in general by paying out the commissions?

How much do you allocate for media buying? What's the ROI?

What are your fixed and variable costs?

How much do you want to invest into content and updates and how will it affect the retention and average $ per sign up?

It's all quantifiable maths and it's no brainer.

I still don't see your point - traffic is the king - innovation without monetization is like an art without an audience, as used by Scott Rabinowitz.

If it's bad that shit gets more audience than good stuff? SURE

But who's mistake is it? let's hear the answer

If you're better than others, why can't you sell, why can't you get to their place?

We're talking in general, but traffic IS the king.

And what's this? a litany?

Why should you end up with less? I know that every 1000 uniques on my sites is money in the bank.

Talking in political phraseology - ideology and awareness are extremely important.

Only the one, who's aware what's going on, is the one who will be ready to deal, when shit hits the fan.

Well ok, to be fair - needless to mention the level of retardation in the porn industry is higher than average.

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Paul Markham

Fine.

But today he can, not on your site, compare a site to 10, 100 or even 1000 others. And the ones I talk about compare badly.

True they do convert, the problem is eventually the buyer says screw this and stops coming.

True it would be nice if the HAD to sign up. Sadly those days are gone.

If they send it to sites that turn the members off buying this is very true.

Some have that traffic and can only sell dating and cam sites off it.

How many care, so long as they get their $40 to $50?

If they turn the next surfer off from buying what do you think?

Not quoting the whole thing to save space. The situation we are in today is because we spent more on traffic than we should of and less on what the members were buying. Satisfied customers do not leave as fast as ours did. Why we got it so out of balance is the next question. Who is really to blame? The customers don't care, they voted with their feet.

Traffic never was King. Because it always costs money. It's not until someone signs up that we are able to pay the bill of traffic. Less people sign up the more expensive that traffic gets. And there is the problem and question. Do we spend more still on traffic and less on content of the store, so in the long run less sign up?

Spot on and exactly my point. It ised to be send me 100, then 200 and now it's 1,000. Where does it stop?

No I', sure many are aware of the problem, the problem is convincing them what the answer is. Continuing down the same road we traveled for 8 years does not seem to be the solution.

You started a thread that was perhaps designed to get some answers. I offered some. You shot me down. Now where do we go from here?

Your site is not one I include in the above about investing money.

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Jack Sparrow

taking a shower now, but i'll be back to talk ;)

Paul Markham

To those who worry about the "Traffic Pool".

Of course the traffic pool has changed. It now contains even more sceptical people who are less willing to hand over their money than it ever did. Proof of that is in your ratios, cue for the Bros to tell us how well their site is doing LOL, and now the proof can't be covered by increases in traffic.

Today most people report less traffic and worse conversion ratios.

There is very little new traffic to be had that is buying porn.

The traffic an individual sponsor/site gets by spending more on their traffic machine is wasted money in the long term.

Because the sponsor and sites who lose the traffic will just step up their game to get the traffic back. A takes from B and C until B and C up their game to get it back.

The solution to getting more people to buy porn in todays market is not spend more money on traffic. It's spend more on the product and win back the customers.

If you think the solution is spend more on traffic then please explain what went wrong. Because we traveled that route for years and look where it got us.

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Cherry7

People will pay if they feel they get a product they cannot get anywhere else.

Look at the success of a series like "The Wire" which people were prepared to buy on DVD to see, when TV was doing a race to the bottom in quality and production values.

In porn the obsession with quantity, 100,000 videos millions pictures, ment lower and lower production values, until the product is now worthless and freely available.

Paul is right with the one model doing 40 sets.... An alternative would be to add photographic skills to the most beautiful models to make unique and original content punters cannot get anywhere else. Make one set but amazing - that takes skill.

better less but better.

These are common problems to all the creative arts, but we have it easy, because sex sells. If you a have an erotic beautiful woman in a video people will pay to see it.

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CarlosTheGaucho

Yes, the thing is that you can always monetize traffic, no matter if there will be no more porn, or even no more porn content etc. which will never happen.

Traffic is what monetizes your content, traffic is what pays for your bills, and the relation between the quality of the product / giving it the right and intense exposure is NOT one sided, so you CAN'T say one is more important than the other.

This applies in general - most popular products are many times shit.

BUT that works in the world with control mechanisms, we're talking about scam here, scam is the problem, not that someone would need to make their sites better.

In case someone would have a shit site and the other one would have a great site and no scam would be going on - then we would me in more or less balanced business environment, and it would be only a matter of customer preferences (and again also the EXPOSURE of the good product) what does the customer choose, without getting fucked 10 times over along the way.

You can only say the balance needs to be somehow optimal for your case, your product, your budget etc.,

In general this of course doesn't work these days and many surfers are thrown at a shit product and get fucked in the ass hard - and as the result - the traffic pool has changed.

That's what's happening on a daily basis, every minute another 10 / 100 / maybe 1000 surfers get fucked, as a result, the traffic pool is changing

The situation we are in today is because idiots could have made money screwing everone around without any control mechanism, at the end they even managed to find the dumbest model of them all that brings less marketing productivity than ever with a general porn product

Customers are sheep, they will sign up for another flashy cluster fuck even if you'll try to "care" about them. Then they get fucked, then they might return, yes.

I've seen many returning to our site say after 3 months of an inactive membership, that's why I was resistant to cross sells.

Now I have there a cross sell with Guerilla, that's a 7 day free trial, so anyone who converts has 7 days to cancel the membership for free, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

And what for a logic is this? What is business?

An investment, in the ideal case with a return.

An investment, an opportunity, an experience.

So what is this for a statement?

What are you talking about?

How much does one paying member in average cost you on bandwith, do you offer him unlimited streaming of 1000 livecams every day so it costs more than the membership


I'm lost now


Do you know how much $ do I gross on 1000 uniques in average?

I used it as a UNIT, as a UNIT.

I disagree, idiocy and ignorance is the only safe bet in this industry.

Discussion is not always about agreeing with you, Paul.

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Paul Markham

And here is where we made our biggest mistake.

We have followed this route for years and look where we are today. Don't try to convince me we were doing it right for all those years.

Without content you have a blank page, even a link to another site is content. Is text content. The value of that link totally depends on the conversions at the other end of the chain.

Conversions brings money into the business that pays for the traffic. Those conversions rely on satisfied customers. Coming back to the site or coming back the Internet to BUY porn.

A site not doing this is a site fucking all of us.


Not at all. But it helps if you don't keep pushing the same broken system.

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Paul Markham

Totally agree. Then why are so many sites shootig the same content as 200 other sites have?

How many sites when commissioning a shooter are willing to pay for that extra quality. Most think quality porn is about HD and size.



Sadly not in the numbers they did, so where did we go wrong?

Maybe it was in thinking we only had to drive traffic to a site and it would monetize itself. Over and over again, no matter how little they got in return.

There are some great sites on the Adult Net. However too few when compared to the average and bad sites. And even those are feeling the pinch today. We are all judged by the buyers as a whole. Who here blames the customers for not buying from this industry as a whole?

But don't worry we can keep on the same road and it will all come good!!!!

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CarlosTheGaucho

Who is We?

Who is we? A business, a bunch of retards trying to make a buck, a mix of both?

Yes, they did it right at the start, they got rich on a get rich quick scheme, fucked everyone, and got out before the doors shut.

Cause there's no real business environment in online adult, and I'm sure those guys knew, that it's gonna only get worse and more hassle.

You can be an entrepreneur in the top class, but if you don't have the pimp hand strong, and don't smack a couple morons, who try to steal from you, you will get hurt.

And then, say it's 2009 and especially if you have:

a) capital

b) average intelligence and skils

c) you're not a pervert that would be in it for the moving part

Why would you even invest time and money into adult?

You're more likely to change the direction, and who can blame you?

That's of course true,

but in principle, hypothetically, these days - I don't have to care, because

1) no matter if I steal the content (cause it's "legal")

2) no matter if I don't have any content, and just jerk or broker the traffic somewhere else

cause TRAFFIC is all that matters

Yes, there will always be a space for sites that can build their loyal audience,

Yes this route works,

I can confirm that,

BUT you can't rely on anyone getting anything, anyone understanding anything, anyone changing their principles,

You gotta kick ass on you own!

Know your enemy!

There are thousands of products on the web that are marketable to the same audience as porn, and you can even more effectively filter out the junk traffic, and that will convert much better, even with the lower commissions.

Why would someone even die hard invest into porn anymore?

Ok, it's my turn now, in the post apocalyptic, masturbating global village, to show that there are new innovative ways, that can make money in porn for a couple years to come, but the question applies in general.

Yes, but in the environment with:

a) no control mechanisms
b) massive widespread of ignorance / dumbness and idiocy in general

Who can blame them?

This is a specific business, let's make fun out of it.

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CarlosTheGaucho

That's exactly correct

That's what's happening now with certain sponsors running those sites.

The reason is obvious

Yes - theoretically, almost everything is available for free and most of youngs are more geek than so they couldn't be able to figure out how to ask Google and push play.

Why?

the more traffic you own the more traffic you keep residual,

the more traffic you can market in diverse ways - the more traffic you upsell to your other assets, the more exit traffic you monetize, the more upsell traffic you monetize, the more viral traffic you get, the more traffic forgets to cancel, the more maniacs you get to get addicted with your product

Do you think programs like Nasty or Pussycash should just stop marketing their sites as it's "loss" in the long term?

Or do you think they should rather spend money on inventing a new age masturbation tool such as AEBN did?

Please explain.

The more traffic is in the hands of real marketers the more money EVERYONE makes, the more is the AVERAGE return per 1000 uniques for EVERYONE - hypothetically said.

And how does the customer recognize a "great product" from a "great looking product" that fucks him over? Who will tell them?

Do you want to promise them in the tour you won't fuck them?

And take the flip side of the coin - there are review sites,

And I would even dare to say the majority of review site surfers are just just trying to rape as much porn as possible for their hard drive, and I doubt you would get even a below average $ per sign up from those sites in the long term.

Ignorance on the side of surfer is a bliss, ignorance on the side of marketer is fucking everyone in the ass!

Educate surfers, you'll see less money, add idiots stealing your traffic, you'll see less money, that's where we are, and that's what could as well be the diagnose for 2009.

THAT'S the real paraphrase to your never ending content vs. traffic dispute

How about this:

a) The product (much better word than "content")

b) the traffic

c) the competition

d) the legal regulation

etc.

are ALL PARTS of the environment where you do your MARKETING, where you try to sell your stuff, where you try to make money

From the very first idea you have till the moment, when you count dollars and stats and think of ways, how to improve things and how to gain more edge..

All These things are instantly and intensely affecting YOUR returns!

Ok, Where are we now?

Let's take one after another:

The product:

Mainly shitty over saturated content / in many cases questionable billing practices etc.

(in simple words - FAIL)

The traffic

More educated traffic with less potential than ever

(in simple words - FAIL)

The competition

Many will do anything to fuck you over, and they do it, and it affects everyone's ratios

(in simple words - FAIL)

The regulation

Practically non existing legal environment, apart from a couple old school pervs getting locked down for being too perv on camera

(in simple words - FAIL)

That you'll make the a) or how you call that "content" excellent doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things!

Why?

Because you STILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH the b) c) and d)!



Any more questions?

And no more personal feelings, arguments are listed above.

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Cherry7

Because the history of porn is of semi illegality, just a bit up from drug dealer, the content has been very poor.

Like drugs 10% drug 90% baking soda.

The fact is that the internet has ended censorship for practical purposes.

But adult material is still being shot on Amateur cameras, bad or no lighting, no creativity, no originality...etc BUT at a price people pay for a months cable TV.

There is a lack of value being added to the product. Also low quality product can be found everywhere for nothing.

I am also surprised at have many ugly performers get filmed when attractive performers are available for the same price. It is the contempt a lot of sellers have for their customers.

With production moving from studio to small scale producers, skills will be the key to winning and keeping an adult audience.

This industry seems to have cutting edge skills of traffic, marketing and internet, but very conservative in culture.

As internet speed increase the demand for higher quality will increase and this is an opportunity for good quality erotic material to succeed.

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CarlosTheGaucho

Now take this from a standpoint of me, we're working with real people only, and the sex is therefore real and extremely spontaneous, so I don't necessarily fancy regular porn

That's true, I heard about a guy smuggling one beta tape with porn behind the iron curtain selling it for $ 100 in the prices before 35 years, so might be around 600 - 800 $ these days, considering inflation and the change of purchasing power.

Yes and that's "product" that will get more and more in vogue, as that content that producers take as "quality" is in many cases the same bullshit they are producing for over 10 years with the same fake models, same shooting, same fake moaning, and that's all over the place

Well, we're not talking rocket science, what can be a value added to something that's supposed to cause erection to a male and help him to get off?

Favorite model, favorite practices, favorite fetish, favorite style of shooting (pov) maybe they can use the jerk off machine from AEBN but I don't think you can get much further than that

It's all about targeting, then again there's something beyond porn - real sex, I strongly believe this will get more and more popular to watch as people can now see 1000's of scenes with same fake actors same fake sex and same fake scenario

Might be because the internet is full of those "attractive" but absolutely fake performers, so I would always rather prefer someone natural, who'll show real temperament

I would rather say targeting the audience than "skills" - we're again at the marketing, produce something, target the right audience, try to make a living

So far this industry also showed a cutting edge in dumbness, all that you mention above would have 500 pct. more potential if there was an existing "business" environment.

I mean i like Andrew Blake for example, it's nice work and beautiful women etc. I consider him to be an artist. I will be glad to review your works.

But, at the end of the day, if I need a fast jerk off (hypothetically ) then I will just want to immediately push play and see something / anything that turns me on and do it, not to think if I should play this movie or that movie, or if that one has better lightning, if it makes sense.. so I wouldn't count on quality being much of a competitive advantage to general audience.

Make it rare and you'll sell again.

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Paul Markham

In simple words why does your method fail. Or more to the point why has it failed so far. Because it has failed.

The cost of driving more traffic is so high today and the return so low the money for it has to come from somewhere else. The most likely place is from the content, quality and quantity. Plus you have to build and run your sites to the demands of those driving traffic and not the demands of customers.

Once we started down that road we were always at risk of people adapting a system that does not rely on driving thousands of people to get a few sign ups. To continue down that road without fixing what we have is not going to work. Because the money you invest in "traffic" has to profit long term.

To just keep saying "more traffic" is pointless unless you know the profit and loss on "more traffic" and that so many people ignore today.

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wheat

Man, you know what gets me? I have a site that ranks #1 on Google for "hot tits", page 1 for "hot babes", pages 2-3 for "tits" and "big tits", traffic trades set up with a number of established big tits/pornstar oriented sites, and I get less than 1 out of every 2000 people I refer to brazzersnetwork to sign up for a membership. Aint that some shit?

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Cherry7

Can I ask you a question that puzzles me. Why not set up a page all about Brazzersnetwork on your site, so that your visitors know as much as you can show them about Brazzersnetwork and of course return links to the main body of your site.

When I look at the racios and the sites that send us traffic, the ones that have the best conversions have info on our site on theirs.

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Paul Markham

Just a suggestion from an idiot so probably wrong.

Do a search on those keywords and look for sites on page 2 or 3 and beyond.
Check them out and see if they work and look good from a surfers perspective.
Also see if they are giving everything away on a Tube site.
Then check the affiliates sector.

Sign up and check again to see how much content they have. As this is an indication to the size of the sites, not 100% but good.

Then kick out Brazzers and test with the new ones.

Do not look for a "Bro" or a good deal for you. You need a site that converts and looks good from the surfers perspective. And in todays market conversions are important.

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CarlosTheGaucho

I'm lost, I don't understand these simple words

Where? what are you talking about?

Why would it be high, with an average conversion and paying 50 pct. commission I can get affiliate traffic for 4 c per 1000 uniques, which broker can offer this to me?

Which broker can offer me 1k for 4c that will convert below 1:500 ?

What are you reffering to? And what is that "somewhere else"? expand please

On a revshare? That's a bunch of non sense Paul - NONSENSE, listen to me

On a revshare I'm a PARTNER with the one that sends traffic to me, therefore two basic requirements:

a) make it convert

b) make them stay as long as possible to get as much $ in average per sign up as possible

Cause that way we BOTH will make more money

What should be wrong with that? Answer me for Christ's sake

Listen to me Paul


I tried to give you a real answer but you'll still repeating the same narrow minded statement over and over again..

Sure, and that's something we can agree on, cause idiocy and dumbness is the main cause of the problems.

And there's no "business" and there's no "industry" and there's no "easy answer"

Once again - marketing 101:

Therefore you can't preach such bullshit that "making the content better" and "giving better customer satisfaction" will have any major effect or any effect at all while there's still b, c and d in the game.

Ok everythiing is connected with everything,

a wouldn't exist without c, b wouldn't exist without c, c wouldn't be allowed without d etc.

But please stop to preach the "great content for customers" evangelium as the magical cure to the adult industry, pussies so sharp that cocks get harder and harder and everyone starts to pay again - that won't work!

This is a systemic problem, and the solution therefore has to be systemic.

If you shoot 10 HD scenes with uberpussy and make 3 pct. more on retention doesn't mean that the oberdude from Austria running Redtube will not sign up and steal it from you and fuck up your rates to twice worse then they were.

See my point?

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CarlosTheGaucho

The million dollar question is, why are you doing it?

Surfers also know google, and they are one click away from gettin the same stuff you're pushing for free.

I would seriously reconsider the niche / sponsors you targeting.

If you want to offer something totally different yet attractive, sign up with me, SE traffic does wonders.

Real people sell, and they can fuck just as well as pornstars, it's just more fun and it's real.

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polish_aristocrat

been a good thread, but I wonder how many people are reading the whole Paul vs Carlos discussion

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CarlosTheGaucho

They should, it's the best part so far.

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james_clickmemedia

I have skimmed some of the posts in this thread and one thing that stands out to me is if you provide a high end, exclusive product then customers will buy.

I would put forward Kink.com family of sites. From what I remember they have no trials only monthly memberships however they have thousands of members and produce the best bondage material covering most of the sub-niches (although I know nothing about bondage niche this is from a casual observer).

If you have unique content and know you niche you don't really need the trials (unless there are other companies doing the same and they under cut you by offering trials). However you won't get nearly as many affiliates pushing your sites....

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CarlosTheGaucho

I agree,

That's why there will be no trials on our brand new niche sites, why would you give something really targeted away for a couple $?

If they are really into this niche, if they really want it, they should be ready to pay for it.

I can give them exclusive stuff that's updated 2 times a week plus 8 hours of live hardcore over the weekend (will be launching with two sites so that's 4 updates a week and 16 hours of live hardcore over the weekend).

No trials.

I'll keep the 7 day trial for the main all inclusive site bigsisterlive.com, because the results so far are not this bad.

The value for the member, with over 10 exclusive updates a week, prepaid live cam girls, a minimum of 32 hours of live amateur hardcore a week and over 9000 excl. scenes included in one fixed fee membership at 39.95 USD is not this bad either.

Adding leased niche feeds and leased additional live feeds next week, let's see if it's gonna boost the retention a couple pct. up.

Tube sites are updating every hour, I want to offer more, and all unique, different, real.

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Paul Markham

Very very true. But when it's two real people fucking. And they are not fat and ugly as well, either one. LOL

The problem with your post is it's unrealistic. 95% of the paysites on the Net feature models doing it for money. The trick is to make them do it looking like they're doing it for the fun. This is something I have said for years and probably said again in a post here.

So are we all to only send traffic to sites that feature 100% amateurs doing it for fun?

Like I said unrealistic post.

It does not matter who posts it, it only matters if it contributes to people understanding different perspectives.

We have had 8 years of the "gurus" telling us how it should be done and many followed. Well if they were so good why did we end up with customers walking away? And free is not the answer because they buy elsewhere.

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Paul Markham

Agree 100% and have said so consistently for years.

OK sites who do have great content, shot by great shooters who knew their niche and could direct models and on a budget that allows for great porn to be produced are still feeling the pinch. As a market we have lost most of the guys who signed up to jerk off to one scene, no matter how good it is. And until we shut down the Tubes they will stay lost.

However the problem for most sites is they were not and still are not prepared to pay what it costs to produce the level of porn Kinks, Twistys, Sapphic and more produce. Their attitude was and still is "What's your best price."

It's easy to say "provide a high end, exclusive product then customers will buy" and even though most know it, few will pay for it. You should be sitting next to me when I get asked to produce content like, for instance, Party Hardcore and the buyer falls off his chair.

Do you think content providers are responsible for the low prices of content or the people who buy it?

polish_aristocrat did that make a point?

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Barefootsies

In all fairness, if traffic were the king. You would not have all these programs in the shitter. They have traffic, can buy more traffic, work their BRO connections and deals, and their stuff is not selling.

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Paul Markham

True, traffic costs money UNTIL it converts. The rate it converts at, is controlled by the content on the tour, the retention is controlled by the content inside the site.

The money your content makes contols how much you can spend on traffic.

Unless you have some multi millionaire backers.

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Cherry7

I have a problem in these discussions because the words I use just seem to mean other things to other people.

So I feel I have to take another tack to explain. Do you understand modern abstract painting? Do you understand modern classical music? No. Not many people do. They just don't get it.

That is how I feel about porn. It has a following of users who have learnt to wank to increasingly wierd portrayals of some things related to sex.

I remember being shown an award winning piece of porn with four guy jerking off with a big tited porn star in the middle. And I looked at this like I would an obscure abstract work of art. It was as exciting as cold porridge on a rainy day.

I would say that there is a massive audience who desire erotic material but find porn a turn off.

Porn photography is at the level of Police photography, or X ray photography. "High quality" means the guy put a light on. "HiDef" means lower quality than DVD. Teen means under 30 etc...


The porn sex act itself is not erotic if it is 1)she blows him 2) He fucks her for 20 minutes in boring mech fashion with the regulation 3 positions 3) humilate girl with spunk in face.

Why would this be a turn on for 90% of the people? And the people who do like it 1) don't have CC cards and have it for free on the tubes.

The internet is turning quickly into a delivery system for High quality video..... If we move from quantity to quality ....There is a future

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Elli

Excellent post...

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CarlosTheGaucho

I see numbers that tell me that this stuff sells, and that most likely way more than the oversaturated bullshit that most are trying to push, I also know no one will be able to duplicate the model I'm pushing anytime soon

a) it costs money

b) they think the same way as you

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CarlosTheGaucho

Well, I doubt the scumbags with biggest balls don't make money

They exactly use the environment where a,b,c,d is fucked, as it is in adult online

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CarlosTheGaucho

Paul, who's making more money in this fucked up environment, who's making more money in online adult, Brazzers or you?

Answer me.

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CarlosTheGaucho

That's what I would say too, I guess this definitely has future, not everyone wants to see retarded stunt cock battling a girl with too much illusions and too much make up on

That's 99 pct. of porn

That's exactly why I do what I do, it's real and totally different, and it sells

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Barefootsies

Oh, I am not saying an 'All" or 'Nothing'.

What I am saying is that, a lot of crying on panels, the industry boards and trade mags about some of the BRO companies losing 40-75% of their sales in the past two years.

The BRO companies have traffic. They can BUY more traffic on mass. Yet still crying on sales being down even though they are trying everything in the arsenal of traffic generation.

So if traffic can't save them, then traffic is not king.

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CarlosTheGaucho

Yet those are exactly the ones who're pushing the general product for years and who are DIRECTLY competing with those, who are running, not financing the tubes and other scum, that's their competition.

So they see less return then they were used to.

But again, it's those who stole that traffic from them, who are fucking everyone,

not saying that these guys are making great marginal returns, maybe they don't do that much, but they are the ones that hold the traffic, they cause the most damage to everyone - the one that holds the traffic rules.

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Barefootsies

I agree they tend to do the most damage to the 'industry' BROS.

Let me clarify my point...

The 'industry' is not ONLY the BROS, programs, and people represented on this board.

There are thousands, tens or even hundreds of thousands, of mom and pop and small studios and web sites I have never heard of, and that probably have never made a single post on this, or any, industry forum.

Look at clips4sale alone. A vast majority of those studio owners do not post here. A lot of those people you will never recognize. I know when I was putting together my FOOT FETISH and TICKLING search engine there were hundreds I had never heard of, but they were nice sized sites.

Putting the point on the pencil.... While the shows, forums, panels, trade mags talk about 'the industry being down', the truth of the matter is, the big dollar BROS are down. A lot of us, especially niche and fetish providers, are still doing the same or better business. Not all, but a lot I have talked to.

So 'the industry' is only represented on this, and other boards, by the participants. Not on the people actually in this industry as a whole. Many are not hurting. Nor is the traffic of the BRO networks king of their sales.

That said, if you are more accurately talking about BRO programs, how they market their BRO content on their BRO traffic networks, then yes. I agree with you. They are basically cannibalizing themselves.

Not all of us use BRO traffic sources or content. Not all of us suffer at the hands of BRO.

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Paul Markham

Great post.

The problem is not enough people understand the product they're selling. They think of it as stacking shelves. If you put up enough sites and send enough traffic they will buy. Some still think the key is sending traffic, but ignore the cost/profit ratio of that traffic. Or see it and don't have an answer. Some will buy once maybe twice and a few will buy over and over again. But the problem today is not enough buy enough to make the returns good.

Some think you can make better porn using a HD camera, you can't. You just make it clearer. Some think you can fool a teen niche buyer think a 30 year old is a teen, you can't but you can make some affiliates think it. Like they think HD is better. And there is your problem, not enough of the sellers understand the product.

Watching the sex act, is only erotic if you fantasize you're in there. Lots of porn produced today does not have this fantasy. It's purely to be watched, not involving the viewer. Another girl on another sofa doing the same thing she does in 5 or 50 other scenes. Porn for sale needs to go further than that.

And if it doesn't it's no different from 500 over scenes on bluetube ot tube6.

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CarlosTheGaucho

I totally agree, the one that shouts the most is not the one that has the most.

It would actually extremely interest me how much traffic, partially, is flowing through the say top 10 programs out of the total pie.

Then I would be also extremely interested how much traffic is flowing say through top 5 sponsors in every niche, and what's the average earnings per 1000 uniques in these niches for them.

Cause I know, I'm not hurting at all! And I know, I'll be able to grow the business for at least say 3 more years! I'm this optimistic.

Then I would be also extremely interested, how much traffic out of the total porn traffic (traffic that visits 18+ rated porn sites) is regularly visiting tube sites and how much traffic out of this is still visiting the affiliate promos - aka free sites as we used to know it.

But these things are already quantification - not something many would be familiar with and many would use, otherwise we would hardly ever end up in such unproductive shitter as now.

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bmchunu

It's pure and simple .. the main stream porn industry needs to re-invent itself just like years ago when bangbus and backroom facials etc. burst on to the scene and were big hits something new is required. As stated lots of time on this thread, a better quality product is required. Watch 5 minutes of any of the reality porn clips and you get bored. The script is poor, the acting shocking and it just doesn't grab the surfer!

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Paul Markham

When you see existing customers walking away from your shop you have to stop and think why. Then you have to talk to your customers, you have to find what they want, not ask affiliates what they want to send you traffic.

Reality porn sells like ice in the desert. The problem is 90% of the producers don't have a clue what's real. A girl faking it is not real, a girl doing what 1,000 other girls do on 1,000 other sites is not real either.

The problem is Tube sites are a better option than many paysites and until we turn that around we will have to wait for Governments to step in and make them illegal.

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CarlosTheGaucho

How about this,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Sister_(brothel)

The article is old as hell, I'll have to update it.

maybe it will mean something to you, maybe not.

http://www.bigsisterlive.com/free/vi..._bigsister.wmv

Tell me, if you get the concept from the trailer, that's important.

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Paul Markham

Compre the investment put in by the people behind Big Sister, money, time and technology. They have something truly unique and I'm sure with the right traffic converts.

Then look at all the trolls sending their traffic to sites that have nothing different, nothing unique and no real investment. That pay out 65% or $35 PPS or more.

Until this industry realises it's the good unique content that keeps people buying the Tubes will keep getting their customers.

I'm sure some send traffic to Big Sister, but how many?

And how many think of keeping the customers are getting and how many think of what they can get for themselves?

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CarlosTheGaucho

Thanks for the props,

Well I plan a major marketing action around May, once I have all the new promos online. Let's see the outcome, I'll also talk to all those with traffic I know after all these years, they were actually vital with their feedback to a couple adjustments, that will be done yet.

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CarlosTheGaucho

Anyone who responds apart from Paul Markham wins a free sex in our club.

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