LCN / LiveCam Network / 2Much.net ***WARNING*** - Page 6 - GoFuckYourself.com

2MuchMark · 02-22-2011, 02:32 PM

Frottage / Steve : I already answered that question.

Now I am asking you, AGAIN :

Why did you try to steal customers from Mbase?
Why did you encourage your models like Jasmine to do the same?
Why did you allow her to piss all over herself (and drink it) on camera? (Do you want me to send you the video?)
Why did you break all of these terms of our TOS?
Why should anyone give you any credibility after all of this?

If its too hard for you to answer all of them at one shot, let's start with the first one.

I'm waiting..

XMerchant · 02-22-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

I've never made any money online, and I don't know anything. Does that make you feel better?

FYI, if you actually want to learn something it is easier to listen to the advice the people are giving you instead of wasting time trying to find example of sites they own. I own literally 1000s of sites. Good luck wasting your time and learning noting from it.

Now i need to get back to my day job.

Ah, the great Will76 finally reveals the secrets of how to run 1000's of successful adult websites, so all of us idiot noobs can learn from his great accomplishments:

http://www.gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/919450-will76-post-looking-hire.html

Banned from GFY before too, gee I wonder what for. Probably got way too successful for his own good. If you are still looking for work, Will, please let me know. I may have something for you, and I will pay you more than Mark is paying you to piss in this thread.

2MuchMark · 02-22-2011, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornsitenewbie

I may have something for you, and I will pay you more than Mark is paying you to piss in this thread.

If you want piss, ask Frottage for Jasmine's phone number. I don't piss and tell.

B.Barnato · 02-22-2011, 02:58 PM

wow this thread keep on grow

PussyMaster · 02-22-2011, 04:08 PM

2MuchMark · 02-22-2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pussymaster

lol !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2MuchMark · 02-22-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

When you change prices( per minute in Mbase) for my models, enable and disable, change my models access passwords at your sole discretion; how am I in control?

We do not touch your prices. How much you want to charge your customers to chat with your models, and how much you want to pay your models, is completely up to you. We make recommendations if you ask, but that is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

Huh? What was that Mark?You talk about "networking"and "network connection"? LAMO

It is true. With Mbase, you can see chat models provided by other sites and studios. You can select the models that you want to feature on your site, etc. If you want to you can also contact the site or studio owner directly to make your own deals, ask for promotional content, etc. This is what I mean by network connection as it pertains to mbase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

I remember this being quite different.If a model was submitted to Mbase for approval, you were the only one deciding, based on your own criteria (or "niche" if I was to quote you) if that model will be shared in Mbase (network

) or not.
Mbase should have been a BASE OF MODELS where all the other site owners should have access and the right to chose for themselves, whom to enable in their sites or not.You took that away from us by making decisions in our behalf.

I will meet you half-way here. Models that were not approved on mbase were models who either had no proof of age, or had a niche that was not available on mbase at the time. This did not mean that your models still could not chat for you on your own site. It simply meant that there was no market for them.

For example, no on on mbase had any traffic to take advantage of Shemale / Ladyboys from the Philippines. This didn't mean that you couldn't have your own shemales on your own site, it just meant that we didn't have the traffic to support them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

To me this sounds more like a game in which you make and change the rules as you please.

I'm sorry you feel that way but I assure you that it is not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

You made the mistake of confusing LCN (that you own) with Mbase that we were all sharing. When you realize that a model does not correspond to your niche or standards you are entitled to remove her from your site not from Mbase (the so called "network connection").

No, this is not true. Allow me to clarify.

Each website, including "LiveCamNetwork.com", can add or remove chat models from mbase. As "LiveCamNetwork.com" is a functioning website with actual customers and actual costs, we want to convert traffic that we advertise to get as much as possible.

If a chat model is the wrong niche, or refuses to talk to customers, or is boring, etc, she will not convert. Therefore, we remove her from "LiveCamNetwork.com".

Removing her from "LiveCamNetwork.com" does not mean that she is removed from mbase. Other websites can still use that model if they want to, and you of course can promote her if you feel that strongly about her. However, no other website in the network including "LiveCamNetwork.com", has to feature any model they do not wish to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

Based on how many years you have been in this industry and with so many webmasters purchasing your product, you could have been way above them if you were REALLY using the NETWORK.The only thing that stood between you and this network success was just your limited way of thinking.

I will give you this one. I do tend to be stubborn at times and I'm sorry if this caused any rift between us. However I will venture to say that my arguments in this reply to you are valid, so far. If you still think I am wrong in this particular post, please let me know.

Regards,

livecamd · 02-22-2011, 10:21 PM

Mark, Mark, Mark......do you "listen" to what you say ? I am not going to quote you anymore and nor going to comment about anything because I consider it is a waste of my time. YOU STARTED TO SOUND LIKE YOU ADVERTISE YOURSELF and i am not going to participate!!!!

Remember: " what goes around comes around" Mark and flash news for you, this is not BBS forum (at LCN) where you can remove threads or posts. Guess what? GFY ranks very high in any search engine.From now on, when people will look up your site this thread will come up first. Hopefully they will find out what type of business you conduct and what to expect.

There is an old saying you should consider:
" When 3 or more people are telling you that you are drunk, maybe you should think about going to bed..."

frottage · 02-22-2011, 11:06 PM

Mark,

I have demonstrated that I indeed had money in my account on payday. I have shown you the email you sent where you said the money was sent out which I never received. I have shown you where you indicated you would not charge me to reactivate your ccbill. You went back on our word and charged me $195.00. I have paid my models since they should not be affected by our problems.

Will you now honor your commitments?

Tjeezers · 02-23-2011, 01:18 AM

avoid people who CROWNED themselves to webcam King.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 01:30 AM

Frottage/Steve: I have already answered all of your questions. Like my answers or not, I answered them.

I asked you why you tried to steal customers from other sites running lcn and why you encouraged your models to help you to do it several times in this thread, and you are too afraid to answer.

'nuff said.

livecamd:
My apologies to you - I am not trying (that hard) to promote our software in this thread. I am only trying to answer your questions and to present the facts.

TeenCat · 02-23-2011, 01:34 AM

and even bigger douchebags ... fuck people living in illusions and own reality are pain in ass ...

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 03:54 AM

I told you that Mark Prince was persistent, the clown never wins the argument he just keeps going and going and going repeating and repeating, he is like a bad smell, a child that has to have the last word.

Don?t get me wrong he is a clever guy, the LCN program is put together brilliantly to milk and then discard his license holders. The control he has over supposedly individual businesses is immense, the succeed or fail factor has nothing to do with being a noob or an experienced webmaster, I don?t know who said it in this thread but yes, traffic and running a site is a learning curve, and I?m sure most people who have ever been in business of any type realize that, it does take time, unfortunately that time is just not there using Marks software.
Licenses are sold to both. If you were to ask Mark a question like ?Hey Mark tell me, how many webmasters have purchased your LCN program in lets say the last 3 years and how many are still live and being operated by the original purchaser now? You would find the number still in operation would be incredibly small.

The reason is not that noobs don?t know what they are doing, it is simply that Mark actually reaches a stage where he decides that he likes some of there models and traffic, or he gets his calculator out and realizes that other models in his system are beginning to eat away at his own LCN demo sites models income, winning over LCN customers and eating into his turnover. So he then decides its time to re-balance things in favour of himself and his girls and his demo site.

He starts messing with monies, he starts making up charges, and he starts to kick models of Mbase by saying that there is no niche meaning the models don?t meet his own 18 to 35 nerdy girl next door college girl types.

The next step is he doesn?t pay, and then contacts the rival sites models to tell them it?s not his fault they haven?t been paid and hey presto. He?s got you one step closer to being out the door.

Its all over, then it descends into arguments in his webmasters forum and the guy who worked hard trying to make it work, noob or experienced ends it because of the sheer persistence and the public ridicule, Marks claims that the webmaster did every thing wrong and he tried his best to help but you?re the idiot for not taking advice and that?s not right and you miss understood him or no that not true, you must be mistaken you bought cheap traffic, you didn?t buy enough traffic, you are using eastern European girls, the streaming was no good they wont talk to customers, just like in this thread, Mark prince and 2Much never fuck up they never make a mistake but they do put things right occasionally and claim it is a peace offering a compromise not an admittance they were wrong on any point at any time. Bet you he comes back on this and says I?m mistaken lol

I bet you Mark breaks this post into individual sections and rips me to shreds claiming ?you are mistaken Paul, you are wrong Paul.?

It doesn?t matter what he says, every single person that reads this thread unless they are related to Mark in some way either in his employ or, will realize that this man even when he is wrong will never ever admit it and the readers will think twice about doing business with him.

Oh and he still owes me money that he will claim he doesn?t.

Livecamd, Frottage and me and probably many others can?t all be wrong can we, lol I bet he comes back saying we are. Oh well just observations and my opinion, take it or not I don?t really care.

Regardless of what he comes back with now, I shall not post again. Finally, if any of you have an argument with 2Much and Mark and you want to club together and talk to the mentioned Canadian lawyer then just drop me a line.
PS. I will be launching a live cam network tool in the next few weeks, a simple system for both noobs and experienced webmasters that has none of drawbacks and that is completely free. A system that has no conflict of interests of any kind..

XMerchant · 02-23-2011, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

Finally, if any of you have an argument with 2Much and Mark and you want to club together and talk to the mentioned Canadian lawyer then just drop me a line.

At the very least you guys should file suit to get your license fees back. False claims and advertising would be the easiest to prove in court, especially with so many people having the same experience. The fee Maurice Lasry charges is at least 1/2 or less of what the license costs (depending on the one you bought), and like I said his fee is capped to take the case to the end, no matter how long it takes. Beat Mark to the punch before he sues you himself like he sued me. There is no reason not to do it!

PussyMaster · 02-23-2011, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

PS. I will be launching a live cam network tool in the next few weeks, a simple system for both noobs and experienced webmasters that has none of drawbacks and that is completely free. A system that has no conflict of interests of any kind..

Please drop me a line when it`s finished shadyladyranch gmail dot com. I would like to take a look. Thanks

frottage · 02-23-2011, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

Frottage / Steve : I already answered that question.

Now I am asking you, AGAIN :

Why did you try to steal customers from Mbase?
Why did you encourage your models like Jasmine to do the same?
Why did you allow her to piss all over herself (and drink it) on camera? (Do you want me to send you the video?)
Why did you break all of these terms of our TOS?
Why should anyone give you any credibility after all of this?

If its too hard for you to answer all of them at one shot, let's start with the first one.

I'm waiting..

To the contrary, you have avoided answering my questions. Since you seem incapable of taking the time to read my posts thoroughly, I will paraphrase and then ask for you to comment on the referenced post which for some reason you have not done. Please consider these salient points in response to your accusations?

#1 Why did you try to steal customers from Mbase? (Why would you offer to renew my license with concessions to keep me if I were stealing your customers? I have explained ad nauseum all the issues you are concerned about regarding the marketing to social networks to generate new customers. Nobody stole your customers. The reverse is true in that you repeatedly sent emails to selected customers offering them incentives to switch or return to LCN. I will give you one example to consider- UMSC BOB.)

Why did you encourage your models like Jasmine to do the same?( This has been asked and answered many times. Read the post which I will link to.)

Why did you allow her to piss all over herself (and drink it) on camera? (Do you want me to send you the video?)(The first I heard of this was two days ago when you sent me images. This was in a private chat. If you had told me earlier ,I would have spoken to her about it. I have seen other girls give "blow jobs" in free chat, and I always alerted you when things like this happened. To be clear, this does not refer to your girls ,except for one who left several years ago)

Why did you break all of these terms of our TOS? (Why did you send me an email offering to renew my license with concessions made to me regarding your usurious costs? Do you always try to renew the license of persons with TOS violations?)

Why should anyone give you any credibiliy? ( I will let the members of this board decide who has more credibility)

Finally, I want $600.00 sent to me immediately. You lied about there being insufficient money in my account on payday to generate a check. Check your accounting system on the date in question, and you will see you are wrong. When questioned, you said I had not met the minimum required for a paycheck. I immediately sent you a termination letter, and you responded saying and I paraphrase ( if you are leaving about the wire, you made it just in time- it was just sent out.) I don't believe that more than 30 minutes took place between your emails. As of this writing , I have not received any money. The current accounting sheet shows a positive balance which you paraphrase as negative.

Finally, your email to me stated ccbill would be reactivated for free. I later found out you charged me $195.00 for what you said you would do for free

So now I asked the members of this board- who has credibility? Is it me and the legions of ripped off site owners or Mr. Prince?

Here is the link that explain everything I just paraphrased. Answer and give me my money back as well as Paul who you owe much more and Dan. You probably owe money to SCF and I assure you if necessary we will find many more who you have defaulted and owe money too.

Pay US the damn money already!!!!

Please see post #245 and answer the questions posed to you

alexxx · 02-23-2011, 09:55 AM

I will wait 'till page 9 to make a post...
nice read...

frottage · 02-23-2011, 10:15 AM

BTW, Both livecamd and Paulus have developed great sites. I would not hesitate a second to join either one

Steve

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frottage

Mark,

I have demonstrated that I indeed had money in my account on payday.

This was never in question. I already told you that Your last payout due to you was "under the wire" because the Amount in your account of the payout due to you was less than "minimum payout" which is something that YOU can adjust.

I also remind you again that Tracy took a lot of time to explain to you what pay periods are, how CCBill and other processors work, and how everyone is paid.

Your license has been suspended for MULTIPLE violations of the TOS including theft. A wire is being sent to you this week but we are holding back $250.00 for the minimum reserve. Any money left over after chargebacks will be sent to you in 6 months which I also remind you, is our policy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

Don?t get me wrong he is a clever guy, the LCN program is put together brilliantly to milk and then discard his license holders.

Paulis this is simply not true. Any business owner will tell you that the key to making money is in long-term business. It is in our best interest that you succeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

traffic and running a site is a learning curve, and I?m sure most people who have ever been in business of any type realize that, it does take time, unfortunately that time is just not there using Marks software.

The time it takes should have nothing to do with our software or anyone elses. It is how you use it. It is all about the content and all about traffic.

Paulus & Frottage: Did the two of you ever communicate with each other to place each other's models on your websites? Did either of you promote each other's models? Do you know what kind of traffic frontage sent to your models? Frottage do you know if his models engaged your customers?

The Mbase program does its job when you work together by hiring models and promoting each other's models as well as your own models and own sites. If you didn't do the work, you should not be blaming anyone but yourselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

It is simply that Mark actually reaches a stage where he decides that he likes some of there models and traffic, or he gets his calculator out and realizes that other models in his system are beginning to eat away at his own LCN demo sites models income, winning over LCN customers and eating into his turnover. So he then decides its time to re-balance things in favour of himself and his girls and his demo site.

Actually? ok! You are right. This is for the most part, true, but don't forget that each website in the network can do this. In fact, we encourage it!

Paulus, LiveCamNetwork.com spent almost $72,000 in 2010 buying chat models from other sites running our software (About $9000 was bought from you, Frottage), at an average price of $2.50 per minute (private, semi-private, voyeur).

It is in the best interest of any website to spend this kind of money on their own chat models instead. So what do we do? We train and re-train our models, and hire new ones. In my own meetings I say "girls: $6000 a month in sales is being lost to you. Work harder! Capture those sales! Blah blah blah!

Going further Paulus, we encourage this of all of our customers. This is why Frottage we tell everyone not to rely on the people who use mbase. Getting your own models, traffic and sustained sales and cash flow should be everyone's main goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

Marks claims that the webmaster did every thing wrong and he tried his best to help but you?re the idiot for not taking advice and that?s not right and you miss understood him or no that not true, you must be mistaken you bought cheap traffic, you didn?t buy enough traffic, you are using eastern European girls, the streaming was no good they wont talk to customers, just like in this thread, Mark prince and 2Much never fuck up

No Paulus you are not an idiot. You may have made some mistakes here and there but I always enjoyed working with you.

We have always had a problem with EU girls because as hot as they are, the language barrier and attitude of many EU girls resulted in low conversions. This is why we encouraged you to not rely on them to grow your business and encouraged you to hire North American girls instead (like we do). As far as traffic, we encourage everyone to use Google Analytics to get a better picture of when it comes to traffic sources, goals and conversions (like we do!).

And yes we have fucked up plenty - see earlier post. We learned how to pay attention to traffic after first fucking up. We learned how to hire good models after first fucking up. When we try to show you or any customer that a mistake is being made, it is because we probably already made that mistake in the past, and are trying to help you to avoid it. That is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

Oh and he still owes me money that he will claim he doesn?t.

I believe that you will be owed on returning holdbacks. I will ask Tracy to look into this for you.

FROTTAGE:
I asked you why you tried to steal our customers 10 times now. Your answer was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by frottage

Why would you offer to renew my license with concessions to keep me if I were stealing your customers?

First, we did not renew your license (5 violations is enough). Second, why won't you answer the question? Actually it doesn't matter why, i really don't care. We caught you, and we have the logs and conversations between you and your model to prove it.

When I asked you why you allowed your models to piss on camera, you said

Quote:

Originally Posted by frottage

This was in a private chat. If you had told me earlier ,I would have spoken to her about it.

Frottage YOU are responsible for your models's proper conduct. YOU are responsible to read the TOS of every business you deal with. YOU are responsible to make sure YOUR models know what is legal and what is not.

frottage · 02-23-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

This was never in question. I already told you that Your last payout due to you was "under the wire" because the Amount in your account of the payout due to you was less than "minimum payout" which is something that YOU can adjust.

I also remind you again that Tracy took a lot of time to explain to you what pay periods are, how CCBill and other processors work, and how everyone is paid.

Your license has been suspended for MULTIPLE violations of the TOS including theft. A wire is being sent to you this week but we are holding back $250.00 for the minimum reserve. Any money left over after chargebacks will be sent to you in 6 months which I also remind you, is our policy. (Fine with me. Send me the money owed me, and keep the $250.00 for six months, To be clear, I have no problem with Tracy- she is a wonderful woman. Once I receive the approx $600.00 you owe me, my contributions to this thread are done)

Paulis this is simply not true. Any business owner will tell you that the key to making money is in long-term business. It is in our best interest that you succeed.

The time it takes should have nothing to do with our software or anyone elses. It is how you use it. It is all about the content and all about traffic.

Paulus & Frottage: Did the two of you ever communicate with each other to place each other's models on your websites? Did either of you promote each other's models? Do you know what kind of traffic frontage sent to your models? Frottage do you know if his models engaged your customers?

The Mbase program does its job when you work together by hiring models and promoting each other's models as well as your own models and own sites. If you didn't do the work, you should not be blaming anyone but yourselves.

Actually? ok! You are right. This is for the most part, true, but don't forget that each website in the network can do this. In fact, we encourage it!

Paulus, LiveCamNetwork.com spent almost $72,000 in 2010 buying chat models from other sites running our software (About $9000 was bought from you, Frottage), at an average price of $2.50 per minute (private, semi-private, voyeur).

It is in the best interest of any website to spend this kind of money on their own chat models instead. So what do we do? We train and re-train our models, and hire new ones. In my own meetings I say "girls: $6000 a month in sales is being lost to you. Work harder! Capture those sales! Blah blah blah!

Going further Paulus, we encourage this of all of our customers. This is why Frottage we tell everyone not to rely on the people who use mbase. Getting your own models, traffic and sustained sales and cash flow should be everyone's main goal.

No Paulus you are not an idiot. You may have made some mistakes here and there but I always enjoyed working with you.

We have always had a problem with EU girls because as hot as they are, the language barrier and attitude of many EU girls resulted in low conversions. This is why we encouraged you to not rely on them to grow your business and encouraged you to hire North American girls instead (like we do). As far as traffic, we encourage everyone to use Google Analytics to get a better picture of when it comes to traffic sources, goals and conversions (like we do!).

And yes we have fucked up plenty - see earlier post. We learned how to pay attention to traffic after first fucking up. We learned how to hire good models after first fucking up. When we try to show you or any customer that a mistake is being made, it is because we probably already made that mistake in the past, and are trying to help you to avoid it. That is all.

I believe that you will be owed on returning holdbacks. I will ask Tracy to look into this for you. (Wonderful)

FROTTAGE:
I asked you why you tried to steal our customers 10 times now. Your answer was:

First, we did not renew your license (5 violations is enough). Second, why won't you answer the question? Actually it doesn't matter why, i really don't care. We caught you, and we have the logs and conversations between you and your model to prove it.

When I asked you why you allowed your models to piss on camera, you said

Frottage YOU are responsible for your models's proper conduct. YOU are responsible to read the TOS of every business you deal with. YOU are responsible to make sure YOUR models know what is legal and what is not.

I have answered this many times. I will leave it for another site owner to defend themselves if charged with this

It is my sincere hope Mark that you consider the comments made in this thread so that it does not periodically enlarge itself overtime.

Qbert · 02-23-2011, 11:13 AM

Confucius say, "When in hole over head, quit digging."

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frottage

I have answered this many times. I will leave it for another site owner to defend themselves if charged with this

It is my sincere hope Mark that you consider the comments made in this thread so that it does not periodically enlarge itself overtime.

Stop deflecting, Frottage.

Your model tried to steal end users from other sites using mbase, and she was caught.
You facilitated the theft by funding the accounts of end users she stole, and you were caught.

Frottage, here are just a few of the things we tried to tell you that were wrong with your site, and wrong with your business in general.

Your Website, "LiveCollegeCamGirls.com", hired a 48 year old lady as a chat model. There is nothing "college girl" about a 48 year old lady. Except for 1 or 2 decent models, the rest were non-communicative and / or did a bad job converting.
Your website featured photos of hot girls who in fact did not chat for your website.
You had an extremely high bounce rate and extremely low conversion rate. Potential customers who think they found a college girl site would be disappointed, and leave.
You had traffic leaks all over the place. Potential affiliates would not sign up to a website with even a single leak, let alone many.

"Mediaguy" Greg, Kedra, Xev, Tracy and myself all tried to help you many times with all of these issues but you ignored everyone everyone's advice and insisted on doing things your own way and spent more money than you made. These are the reasons why you struggled Steve, nothing else.

Good luck to you.

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 11:27 AM

Mark Prince

Quote:

I believe that you will be owed on returning holdbacks. I will ask Tracy to look into this for you.

LOL you just cant help yourself can you, you are a liar would you like me to post the screen shot of my account with you showing on the 19th August 2010 you owed me a minimum of $588.78 as I said in a previous post its not a great deal of money but its still mine.

The notice period to cease doing business with you ended on the 20th August 2010 (would you like me to post the email from you confirming this) and since then I have not recieved a cent from you despite you claiming payment would be made and a cheque had been sent. So you owe me money. Period.

Do I believe I will see a cent of it, no, why, because you are an liar. When it comes to credability frottage / steve his head and shoulders above you.

But you will continue posting and claim I am wrong, I am mistaken need I go on, Mark you are a clown, I know it, frottage knows it, Livecamd knows it lol

Enough said. End off.

livecamd · 02-23-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

We have always had a problem with EU girls because as hot as they are, the language barrier and attitude of many EU girls resulted in low conversions. This is why we encouraged you to not rely on them to grow your business and encouraged you to hire North American girls instead (like we do).

Please ask yourself this: Why from all this huge webcam sites out there, you are the only one that has a problem with EU girls. You have been in this industry for so many years and still fail to watch closely what your competition was doing. All this huge sites( you even mention some of them) where build with EU girls online at start, and even today the majority performers are from EU. Maybe there is a language barrier, however you should stay to think for a second.....why was not a problem for other websites to grow even bigger with those EU models online.

And the answer to that is simple: look above to this thread and where I say that your vision about this is limited and YOU didn't allow yourself or others to build this network. It's never to late to change, but to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.....hm, you know the answer to this.

frottage · 02-23-2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

Stop deflecting, Frottage.

Your model tried to steal end users from other sites using mbase, and she was caught.
You facilitated the theft by funding the accounts of end users she stole, and you were caught.

Frottage, here are just a few of the things we tried to tell you that were wrong with your site, and wrong with your business in general.

Your Website, "LiveCollegeCamGirls.com", hired a 48 year old lady as a chat model. There is nothing "college girl" about a 48 year old lady. Except for 1 or 2 decent models, the rest were non-communicative and / or did a bad job converting.
Your website featured photos of hot girls who in fact did not chat for your website.
You had an extremely high bounce rate and extremely low conversion rate. Potential customers who think they found a college girl site would be disappointed, and leave.
You had traffic leaks all over the place. Potential affiliates would not sign up to a website with even a single leak, let alone many.

"Mediaguy" Greg, Kedra, Xev, Tracy and myself all tried to help you many times with all of these issues but you ignored everyone everyone's advice and insisted on doing things your own way and spent more money than you made. These are the reasons why you struggled Steve, nothing else.

Good luck to you.

Just for closure Mark. Greg is the best thing going for LCN. Also, as I said Tracy is a wonderful woman, although I have only dealt with her on one issue. I never dealt with Xev, but I like her a lot. I have never dealt with Kedra about any of these issues. She and I have many differences, but she is a smart and fair woman. Guess that just leaves you Mark

Please, no more back and forth to me. Just send me the money which I assume should go out today since the 23rd is payday.Once I receive it, this matter is closed with me.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frottage

Just for closure Mark. Greg is the best thing going for LCN. Also, as I said Tracy is a wonderful woman, although I have only dealt with her on one issue. I never dealt with Xev, but I like her a lot. I have never dealt with Kedra about any of these issues. She and I have many differences, but she is a smart and fair woman. Guess that just leaves you Mark

Please, no more back and forth to me. Just send me the money which I assume should go out today since the 23rd is payday.Once I receive it, this matter is closed with me.

No Frottage, I am not granting you closure. I am asking you again why you thought it would be ok to let your models steal from our other customers. You started all of this so don't run away now.

And where is your memory? Tracy posted many items for you, and Kedra has advised both you and Jasmine numerous times in numerous threads in our forum.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:14 PM

What FROTTAGE and JASMINE did to us:

As many of you know, LiveCamNetwork.com is half of our business. The other half of our business is selling licenses to use our software to other websites & studios, and providing technical and business support based on our own experiences and practices.

Even though our LiveCamNetwork.com business is small, we do well because we treat all of our customers with respect, avoid any insulting sales gimmicks, let customers do what they like, and especially go out of our way to make sure everyone is happy which includes rewarding end-users with instant credits or refunds first, and then asking for details of their concerns second. There are no hoops to jump-through whenever anyone has a concern. Calling us at 1-866-892-5122 gets you connect with our support people (Greg mostly), our studio (Xev mostly), or myself.

It is this kind of closeness that allows us to, for the most part, know the rhythm, the feel, the vibe, of our site at any time. We know when things are going well.

When things are not going well, we hear about it. End users send me personal emails or even call my cellphone to tell me when something is just not right.

The following is a timeline of events which led up to the departure of Jasmine from LiveCamNetwork.com. It includes screenshots and details which may be a little surprising to some, but they are all a part of the internal workings of our software and business. I apologize in advance for breaking any fantasies anyone may have, but I feel that insight into hour our business works may hopefully, earn your continued trust.

Part 1. Misuse of our software and services

A tremendous amount of logging is built in to LiveCamNetwork software. While little personal information is collected, things such as traffic patterns, links to and away from LCN, IP addresses are all tracked. Any time any customer or chat model reports potential abuse, we have gigabytes of data we can search through to verify the claims.

The first major complaint came from Kedra in the fall of 2010. Someone was posting very negative comments about her in the http://cam.livecamnetwork.com/cgi-bi...rUsrName=Kedra ranking program we had recently developed.

Now of course we fully expected some negative ranks from various users. It is only normal that in any social group that not everyone will get along with everyone else. In the online adult world where women can be objectified and treated like garbage, we expected some nasty posts.

What we did not expect though, were really nasty posts about Kedra and others, coming from other chat girls themselves.

"Fat", "Old", "Fugly", "Whore" were just some of the words tossed around about Kedra, Cassie, Daisy, Kitty etc in the ranking program. It was quite ugly.

I of course want to maintain the integrity of the ranking program and keep all of the negative ranks as long as they were not cruel. There is a big difference between saying "I'm not into her" vs "fugly skank whore". I personally deleted the cruel comments but left the polite negative.

Anyway…

After a call from a very upset Kedra and others, I looked into it and to my surprise, I found that many of these horrible things were being said by Jasmine. Yes, Jasmine.

This came as a big surprise because we had gone out of our way to bring "traffic" (aka, end user customers) into her room, and even worse, Kedra, the nicest person in the world, went way out of her way to give her lots of support, training and hand holding.

We found that many of the negative comments being posted all came from the same IP Address. After a little digging, we found that Jasmine had created multiple accounts, and posted negative comments about many other girls in our system while simultaneous boosting herself, and asking others to vote for her, in a ridiculous attempt to increase her own popularity.

When we confronted her with this this past fall, she lied about it. At first she said it was an error until we showed her the IP addresses and logs. Then she claimed that it was her live-in boyfriend. Funny how the time stamps of each event exactly matched when she was logging in and chatting.

At this time we banned Jasmine from LiveCamNetwork and our forum. People can say whatever they want about me but when it comes to picking on the people around me, sorry, but fuck you. You're history.

A little while and a few apologies later, I let Jasmine back on to LiveCamNetwork. I accepted her "it's not me its my boyfriend" excuse, and put the problem behind me fully expecting to move on to other things.

On October 11th 2010, I started to hear complaints again from a couple of LCN girls, and reports from the incredible, wonderful LCN customers. Apparently, Jasmine was now inviting customers to abandon LiveCamNetwork and other websites running our software, in favour of the website that she worked for.

To find out if this was true, I sent an email to our software developer, David "DPT VAMPIRE" Trehern:

Quote:

Oct 11 2010
Hi David,

Chat model "Jasmine726" has been caught trashing Kedra and other models in the Ranking program using a fake name. Logged in as user "juicyjj", The messages she posted were at:

2010-11-21 03:30:45
2010-11-21 03:27:30
2010-11-09 16:00:54
2010-11-09 16:00:10
2010-11-06 02:36:16
2010-11-05 04:35:43
2010-11-05 04:34:00

She's claiming that it wasn't her at all, but that it was her boyfriend. What I'd like to know is what time she logged in at, and if it was close to the times listed above. (Was she there when he posted it for example?)

As "juicyjj" she also chatted with many girls in both free and vip chat. I doubt she said anything rotten in chat but I'd be curious to see what pops up..

Mark

On Oct 12 DPT came back to me with "The Jasmine Extracts", a collection of files and searches of all things Jasmine including other names she used which included juicyjj and jacks13 among others, and this email:

Quote:

To: Mark Prince
From: DPT
Re: Jasmine Extracts
Date: Oct 12 2010

I have attached a series of extracts in a zip file for you.

The files starting with jasmine726-2010*.log are the public chat room
logs from when jasmine726 had an open room, from 11/04-11/21.

The files starting with auth-* are the authentication logs which just
show entries/exits and important bits. There is an extract for
jasmine726-all to show everything related to her rooms, and
jasmine726-brief to just show mostly her comings and goings.

As well since she always seemed to be on the same IP address
67.184.235.22, I extracted that from the auth. That also seemed to show
that user juicyjj and user jacks13 came from that same IP address.

You can use the auth extracts to correlate when 'Jasmine' or her
boyfriend were on as either jasmine726, juicyjj or jacks13.

The files starting with private-* are extract of the private message
logs, and the file public-juicyjj.txt has everything that juicyjj said
publicly in any chat room.

To see what these logs revealed, please continue reading the next post in this thread.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:14 PM

...Continued:

What DPT came back with was more than a little surprising. Jasmine was caught trashing other models, and even worse, stealing customers. Here is an excerpt from the logs that DPT came up with :

Here is Jasmine first, lurking in various chat rooms models as Anonymous, as herself, and as JuicyJJ

Quote:

AUTH20101016125051.log:10/17/2010 20:34:49 67.184.235.22 Customer anonymous1 Logged In (to room 1 of ciarablue)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/17/2010 20:35:11 67.184.235.22 Flash Policy TCP/IP connection timed out and was disconnected
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/17/2010 20:37:53 67.184.235.22 Customer anonymous1 Went Bye (from room 1 of ciarablue)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/17/2010 20:37:55 67.184.235.22 Customer anonymous105 Logged In (to room 1 of ciarablue)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/17/2010 20:38:21 67.184.235.22 Flash Policy TCP/IP connection timed out and was disconnected
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/17/2010 20:38:40 67.184.235.22 Customer anonymous113 Logged In (to room 1 of ciarablue)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/17/2010 20:38:47 67.184.235.22 Customer anonymous114 Logged In (to room 1 of daisy_)
.
.
.
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 20:20:21 67.184.235.22 Performer Login Fail: jasmine726 had a bad password attempt (hash fail)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 20:20:40 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 authenticated and room opened
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 20:20:41 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 entered room 1 (Free)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 20:20:41 67.184.235.22 Unknown TCP/IP connection timed out and was disconnected
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 20:20:41 67.184.235.22 Flash Policy TCP/IP connection timed out and was disconnected
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 21:01:26 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 exited room 1 (Free)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 21:01:27 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 entered room 3 (VIP)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 21:21:57 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 exited room 3 (VIP)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/19/2010 21:21:57 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 entered room 1 (Free).
.
.
.
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/22/2010 19:20:06 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 authenticated and room opened
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/22/2010 19:20:07 67.184.235.22 Performer jasmine726 entered room 1 (Free)
.

(The first entry was recorded 10/17/2010 20:34:49 eastern time)

Notice the IP addresses above are all the same.

The above log really means little because of course the girls go into each others rooms once in a while and its no big deal at all, but now hear is Jasmine logging in as one of her fake names, and going into other girls chat rooms:

Quote:

AUTH20101016125051.log:10/24/2010 21:58:24 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of michelle21)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/24/2010 21:59:23 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of ghoulface)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 20:53:56 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of charmsc2)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 20:58:52 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of alice__)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:19:03 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of shaynak112)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:19:15 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged Off (from room 1 of shaynak112)

AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:19:47 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of charmsc2)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:20:04 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged Off (from room 1 of charmsc2)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:35:31 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged Off (from room 1 of sweetlyn)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:35:42 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of charmsc2)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:48:04 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged Off (from room 1 of charmsc2)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:48:21 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of ghoulface)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:56:58 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged Off (from room 1 of tamiya)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/25/2010 22:57:07 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of tamiya)
AUTH20101016125051.log:10/26/2010 19:10:54 67.184.235.22 Customer juicyjj Logged In (to room 1 of xev_)

I show this to give everyone an example of the kinds of detailed logs that are generated by our software in addition to the usual access logs by our Apache and Redhad Linux servers. There is really nothing special in the logs above except to show the correlation between the names, times, and IP address.

Does this mean that JuicyJJ is Jasmine? No, not yet... please read on.

Detailed text chats are also logged. Before anyone becomes too alarmed, these logs are kept for up to about 7 months, and are used only for things such as fraud prevention, hacker attach prevention, personal threats against chat girls, circumvention of our software and business policies. We really don't care what kind of adult content they may contain.

Here is a sample of some of Jasmine's chats logged :

JuicyJJ admitting to Goldm that she is really Jasmine, and flirting with him while in another girls' chat room::

Quote:

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:20:35 juicyjj goldm hi baby
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:20:42 juicyjj goldm its jasmine
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:21:35 juicyjj goldm how r u?
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:22:15 goldm juicyjj just woke up babe
.
.
.
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:24:00 juicyjj goldm now drinking run
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:24:04 juicyjj goldm and horny

This is a problem for us because, to be very frank, Kedra, Cassie and the rest are online and chatting to MAKE MONEY. Any time another chat model enters a chat room they do not belong in prevents money from being earned for them. I am sure everyone here has seen what a tough job this is. Sometimes good customers just aren't in the mood and thats fine, but they also have to put up with losers who beg models for freebies and then never spend money. They do not need Jasmine making their jobs harder for them.

Continued...

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:15 PM

...continued

Note: How to read the text-chat log. The text chat log is formatted like this:

Type (Private) - Filename.log: Date Time SendFROM SendTO Text of Message.

Here is a customer, USMCBBob1, having a private conversation with Jasmine, while they are both in another girls chat room:

Quote:

Here is USMCBOB1 (our customer), talking to you:
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:39:08 usmcbob1 juicyjj LMAO JUST SAW YOU TO
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:39:30 usmcbob1 juicyjj YES YOU ARE
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:40:19 usmcbob1 juicyjj WOW
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:41:14 usmcbob1 juicyjj DID YOU GET MY IM ON YAHOO?
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:41:55 juicyjj usmcbob1 no
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/25/2010 22:42:18 usmcbob1 juicyjj YOU TEASE!!

(Apologies, Bob)

And then of course there are messages like this:

Quote:

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/27/2010 00:44:04 juicyjj goldm do not want anyone wlse to know its me

Jasmine knew that she should not enter other girls chat rooms while they are working because it makes their jobs harder to do. Instead of Jasmine respecting our rules, she created a few fake names, broke our rules again and ignored our requests anyway even after promising not to repeat this stunt.

Here is Jasmine once again, talking to a new girl Alexis in private chat. GENTLEMEN: YOU MAY WANT TO READ THIS ONE CAREFULLY:

Quote:

Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 04:55:09 juicyjj alexis had someone convert tongith
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 04:55:13 juicyjj alexis tonight
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 04:55:28 juicyjj alexis because i paid attention to him
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 04:57:22 juicyjj alexis act like they matter
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 04:59:25 juicyjj alexis lol

Could she be any more crass?

Here's a little more, this time with a hint of her general attitude about Kedra:

Quote:

Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 05:00:04 juicyjj alexis who is training u
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 05:00:18 juicyjj alexis Kedra?
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 05:01:03 juicyjj alexis really?
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 05:01:14 juicyjj alexis yikes
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 05:01:18 juicyjj alexis thats hard
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 05:01:44 juicyjj alexis here is my email
Private-20101016-132202.log:11/05/2010 05:01:55 juicyjj alexis jasminesplayhouse@----

So um? yeah..!

As if this wasn't all bad enough, Jasmine created enormous business problems for us when she was caught stealing customers on October 21, 23 and 24th:

Quote:

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/21/2010 19:11:42 jasmine726 akoshka if you join collegecamgirls.com tpnight u get 20.00 added to your account

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/21/2010 19:21:40 jasmine726 akoshka http://livecollegecamgirls.com

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 20:05:12 jasmine726 skyblue7 http://livecollegecamgirls.com

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:29 jasmine726 clare if u join college site
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:37 jasmine726 clare u get 20.00 from pinch
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:43 jasmine726 clare punch

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:29 jasmine726 clare if u join college site
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:37 jasmine726 clare u get 20.00 from pinch
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:43 jasmine726 clare punch
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:43 clare jasmine726 cool
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:51 clare jasmine726 but I have to give CC number
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:10:59 just4jas jasmine726 tonight tomarrow rest of my life
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:12:14 clare jasmine726 what's the site? collegecamgirls.com?
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:14:09 tazmainandevil jasmine726 THUD
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:14:52 just4jas jasmine726 want to be your last tonight
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:15:17 jasmine726 clare do not use same name
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:15:37 jasmine726 clare and has to be my name in pw
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/23/2010 23:40:29 jasmine726 charlie69 i loved getting to know u

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 00:30:34 jasmine726 666 which site do u want it on
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 00:30:40 666 jasmine726 ok so I'll got for more casue yougotta cum for me unless yo uhave already
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 00:30:43 jasmine726 666 i get more on college

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 21:51:54 just4jas jasmine726 HELLO
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 21:53:31 just4jas jasmine726 LMAO
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 22:16:35 jasmine726 just4jas loaded $$ in pervs college acct

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/26/2010 13:49:05 jasmine726 moore51 http://livecollegecamgirls.com
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/26/2010 14:06:15 jasmine726 goodguy http://livecollegecmgirls.com

Private-20101112-124252.log:11/21/2010 22:34:18 jasmine726 bman99 http://jasmine.livecollegecamgils.com

Private-20101112-124252.log:11/21/2010 19:45:47 jasmine726 shuggs http://jasminelivecollegecamgirls.com
Private-20101112-124252.log:11/21/2010 19:46:31 jasmine726 nosaint http://jasmine.livecollegecamgirls.com
Private-20101112-124252.log:11/21/2010 19:47:15 jasmine726 admibrah http://jasmine.livecollegecamgirls.com

Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 21:51:54 just4jas jasmine726 HELLO
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 21:53:31 just4jas jasmine726 LMAO
Private-20101016-132202.log:10/24/2010 22:16:35 jasmine726 just4jas loaded $$ in pervs college acct

By the time I saw this, I was furious.

We at LiveCamNetwork.com spend a lot of money to advertise to attract customers, and a lot of time pouring over statistics to know for sure that our website and service is as good as it can possibly be. We are, I think anyway, very good to our customers. We never, ever delay issuing a credit or refund when asked. We throw in freebies to good customers and do everything we can so that people like Jasmine have customers. For Jasmine to then steal these customers away is a serious slap in our faces.

Continued...

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:16 PM

...continued

Her stunts cost us thousands of dollars and upset some of our other website customers as well.

On November 21st I sent a notice to the website Jasmine worked for and accused her and the site owner of theft, and put them on notice that if this practice did not stop that their operating license with 2Much.net would cease.

All we want is for models to login, chat and have fun. They do not have to like each other but Jasmine did not have to resort to insulting Kedra, making our jobs harder and lying about it. What Jasmine did was attempt to fuck everyone up the ass and steal customers instead of play fair and earn her customers instead.

So now on November 30th 2010, I had my evidence and approached Jasmine again with this. Again she claimed it was someone else, until we provided her and you with the proof.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

Please ask yourself this: Why from all this huge webcam sites out there, you are the only one that has a problem with EU girls. You have been in this industry for so many years and still fail to watch closely what your competition was doing. ...
... Maybe there is a language barrier, however you should stay to think for a second.....why was not a problem for other websites to grow even bigger with those EU models online.

It's not that I personally have a problem with EU girls. The problem was with their sales on LiveCamNetwork.com where they simply did not convert. In fact, many of our end users complained about them. We were fair and gave (and continue to give) every EU girl a chance.

LiveCamNetwork.com also did not purchase traffic that was suitable for EU girls, but then again it was not our responsibility to promote your models. Our #1 responsibility is to the support of our software.

If you consider EU girls to be a niche (like "Russian Brides" for example) and you advertise properly to attract customers in that niche, then it should work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

And the answer to that is simple: look above to this thread and where I say that your vision about this is limited and YOU didn't allow yourself or others to build this network.

If this was true then sites like Daddylive and southern charms would not be still running our software. We do not care what types of chat models you have on your OWN site, but we reserve the right as we have always done to pick and choose who we want to keep on LiveCamNetwork.com. After all, we spend money to promote it. Why shouldn't we make sure we use only good converting models?

Quote:

Originally Posted by livecamd

It's never to late to change, but to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.....hm, you know the answer to this.

I am sorry you feel this way LiveCamMD but I urge you to reconsider everything I have said. If you would like to talk us voice we are more than willing to listen to your concerns.

Regards,
Mark Prince

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

Mark Prince

LOL you just cant help yourself can you, you are a liar would you like me to post the screen shot of my account with you showing on the 19th August 2010 you owed me a minimum of $588.78 as I said in a previous post its not a great deal of money but its still mine.

The notice period to cease doing business with you ended on the 20th August 2010 (would you like me to post the email from you confirming this) and since then I have not recieved a cent from you despite you claiming payment would be made and a cheque had been sent. So you owe me money. Period.

Do I believe I will see a cent of it, no, why, because you are an liar. When it comes to credability frottage / steve his head and shoulders above you.

But you will continue posting and claim I am wrong, I am mistaken need I go on, Mark you are a clown, I know it, frottage knows it, Livecamd knows it lol

Enough said. End off.

Paulus,

All that I ask is that you allow us 24 hours to recover your account details. If money is owed to you we certainly have no problem paying it. If your last day was August 20th 2010, that would mean that any "Returning Holdbacks" would have been applied to your account as of Monday Feb 20th 2011 (6 months later) which means, that this money would now appear in your account.

Please contact me at http://www.2much.net/contact.php right away because our next payout date is today.

Regards,

frottage · 02-23-2011, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

...continued

Her stunts cost us thousands of dollars and upset some of our other website customers as well.

On November 21st I sent a notice to the website Jasmine worked for and accused her and the site owner of theft, and put them on notice that if this practice did not stop that their operating license with 2Much.net would cease.

All we want is for models to login, chat and have fun. They do not have to like each other but Jasmine did not have to resort to insulting Kedra, making our jobs harder and lying about it. What Jasmine did was attempt to fuck everyone up the ass and steal customers instead of play fair and earn her customers instead.

So now on November 30th 2010, I had my evidence and approached Jasmine again with this. Again she claimed it was someone else, until we provided her and you with the proof.

Sorry Mark- this has been asked and answered too many times. All the answers you need are in my posts. This will be my last post unless of course you break your promise and do not pay.I willl check with my bank on Friday.

Good luck to you , and if Greg is following this thread know I have only the highest regards for you. Over and out,

Steve

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frottage

Sorry Mark- this has been asked and answered too many times. All the answers you need are in my posts. This will be my last post unless of course you break your promise and do not pay.I willl check with my bank on Friday.

Good luck to you , and if Greg is following this thread know I have only the highest regards for you. Over and out,

Steve

Frottage / Steve: Why did you try to steal end users from our customers using mbase?
Why did you encourage your models to help you?

Do you really blame us for suspending your license?

Come on Steve, answer.

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

Paulus,

All that I ask is that you allow us 24 hours to recover your account details. If money is owed to you we certainly have no problem paying it. If your last day was August 20th 2010, that would mean that any "Returning Holdbacks" would have been applied to your account as of Monday Feb 20th 2011 (6 months later) which means, that this money would now appear in your account.

Please contact me at ---------------2much.net/contact.php right away because our next payout date is today.

Regards,

I have just sent you an email to your support addy reading

Hi Mark,

With reference to your post on GFY stating that all monies will be paid to me.

Once you have recovered my account details you will see an outstanding balance i.e. you owe me $588.78 plus as you state any hold backs.

I expect to receive the cheque within 14 days of today because it is already 6 months late. please notify me the final amount you owe me via email.

Paul Hudson.

I do hope you are going to suprise me by paying this amount as you have failed to thus far. Please confirm your reciept of my email as the last time we communicated you said you would block my email address.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

I have just sent you an email to your support addy reading

Hi Mark,

With reference to your post on GFY stating that all monies will be paid to me.

Once you have recovered my account details you will see an outstanding balance i.e. you owe me $588.78 plus as you state any hold backs.

I expect to receive the cheque within 14 days of today because it is already 6 months late. please notify me the final amount you owe me via email.

Paul Hudson.

I do hope you are going to suprise me by paying this amount as you have failed to thus far. Please confirm your reciept of my email as the last time we communicated you said you would block my email address.

Hi Paulus,

I already replied to your email and asked you to call me. As I said in my previous post I have to allow accounting to get back to me with your account details (Actual amount owed, details of returning holdbacks, any other costs or credits, etc). It may be more or less than you are saying it is and I can't know for sure until then.

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

Hi Paulus,

I already replied to your email and asked you to call me. As I said in my previous post I have to allow accounting to get back to me with your account details (Actual amount owed, details of returning holdbacks, any other costs or credits, etc). It may be more or less than you are saying it is and I can't know for sure until then.

No I shall not be calling you. I have stated 14 days, this is more than enough time for you to send and me recieve a cheque after you ascertain the outstanding balance which cannot obviously be below the balance I have already stated for numerous reasons all of which will become apparent if you still fail to pay what you owe me.

I think i am being reasonable especialy after your own Legal counsil advised you to pay, Oh and I still have the email I was copied into between you and your lawyer.

I trust we will have no more to say regarding this matter once I am in reciept of the correct amount..

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 02:23 PM

I will get back to you.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 02:30 PM

Hello Paul,

On August 31st, you were owed $571.35, not $585.00.

In September your account was charged -$75.25 for left over hosting, mbase and other fees associated with your account. Your account was also charged for an outstanding debt due to a studio account of -$207.20.

On October 6th check # 312 of $288.90 USD was issued to you at your address: 2------, Birminghamg, West Midlands, --------. We have contacted our bank and asked them to verify if and when this check has cleared.

Moving forward, I would like to present an idea. I don't think you took much advantage of the studio account, therefore I will credit the $207.20 in charges and issue a payment for this shortly.

Is this to your satisfaction?

Regards,
Mark Prince
http://www.2Much.net

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 02:50 PM

Mark

I mailed you in August, Sept and October regarding outstanding monies to no avail, and told you no payment had been recieved, oh well!

I make that $288.90 Plus $207.20 Plus any hold back returns up to and including the 20th of this month, so that is a minimum of $495.10 + holdbacks, this amount is still short, having said that I really cant be bothereed to argue the toss anymore.

So I shall expect this payment of a minmum of $495.10 asap then our business is concluded.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

I make that $288.90 Plus $207.20 Plus any hold back returns up to and including the 20th of this month, so that is a minimum of $495.10 + holdbacks, this amount is still short, having said that I really cant be bothereed to argue the toss anymore.

So I shall expect this payment of a minmum of $495.10 asap then our business is concluded.

Paulus:

You made a mistake. The total would be $496.10, not $495.10. I also said that this does not include returning holdbacks. I said that this was your balance as of August 31st 2010.

And as I already stated, we are waiting for confirmation from our bank to see if your check has cleared or not. If it has not cleared we will place a stop payment on it and issued a new one. However before I do this I would like you to please email me your address. Your last known address according to our files is 2 / 28 xxxx .... I await your email.

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PussyMaster

Please drop me a line when it`s finished shadyladyranch gmail dot com. I would like to take a look. Thanks

Hi PussyMaster,

Thanks for your interest, I will drop you a line the moment its finished or very close to completion.

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

Hi PussyMaster,

Thanks for your interest, I will drop you a line the moment its finished or very close to completion.

Paulus, believe it or not we can refer customers to you. As you know, our system is very expensive for newbies but if you have a low cost system or free script or whatever it is that you are working on, I have no problem referring potential customers who may be looking for "white label", free or lower-cost solutions your way. We have already reffered some people to companies such as Video Secrets, so if this helps calm the waters, I am more than happy to do so.

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

Paulus:

You made a mistake. The total would be $496.10, not $495.10. I also said that this does not include returning holdbacks. I said that this was your balance as of August 31st 2010.

And as I already stated, we are waiting for confirmation from our bank to see if your check has cleared or not. If it has not cleared we will place a stop payment on it and issued a new one. However before I do this I would like you to please email me your address. Your last known address according to our files is 2 / 28 xxxx .... I await your email.

I have just mailed you and confirmed my full postal address.

Paulus · 02-23-2011, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

Paulus, believe it or not we can refer customers to you. As you know, our system is very expensive for newbies but if you have a low cost system or free script or whatever it is that you are working on, I have no problem referring potential customers who may be looking for "white label", free or lower-cost solutions your way. We have already reffered some people to companies such as Video Secrets, so if this helps calm the waters, I am more than happy to do so.

Mark

Let us conclude this existing business before we move potentialy move forward, having said that I thank you for your interest..

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

I have just mailed you and confirmed my full postal address.

Received, and confirmation sent. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulus

Mark
Let us conclude this existing business before we move potentialy move forward, having said that I thank you for your interest..

My pleasure.

ShellyCrash · 02-23-2011, 05:02 PM

I have to be honest, after finally seeing the chat logs it really doesn't amount to much more than petty bullshit between cam girls. I think you were better off not posting them.

I can see Jasmine trying to get customers off LCN and signed up through LCCG to be a problem, but it's not as if these customers were being referred to something outside your network and it also doesn't seem to be at Frottage's benefit to have them do this since he's coming out of pocket on these sign ups which he already could be earning commission on through LCN. Am I understanding that right?

Sometimes people can be petty, employees and models alike. It sucks- no one likes it, but that looks like that's all this amounts to, mountains out of mole hills. I'm not saying that this is ideal cam girl behavior, but surely in the course of running your operations this can't be too far away from what you've dealt with in the past from other girls before. It's not like multiple girls that work through Frottage were doing this, just one girl who seems to be wrought with issues. She's not trying to make Frottage more money, she's trying to make more money for herself.

It's a bummer business between the two of you didn't work out, but Mark- his original post wasn't that negative. I don't think dropping the chat logs were necessary or had your intended effect :2cents

2MuchMark · 02-23-2011, 05:31 PM

Hi Shelly,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShellyCrash

I can see Jasmine trying to get customers off LCN and signed up through LCCG to be a problem, but it's not as if these customers were being referred to something outside your network....Am I understanding that right?

Yes for the most part you are right, but the problems that it created (and could have created) were big.

- The customers were acquired by each website via normal, "legal" promotional efforts as any other webmaster would. Had we let this go on, it would have ruined what we are trying to build.

- A couple of customers and at least one "whale", legally attracted by advertising to one of our customers websites, stopped spending money on the original site, and started spending it on LCCG instead. This resulted in losses to one website and "illegal" gains to LCCG. While it remained in our network isn't the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShellyCrash

...and it also doesn't seem to be at Frottage's benefit to have them do this since he's coming out of pocket on these sign ups which he already could be earning commission on through LCN.

That is exactly right. These customers were already spending money on his girls, via other sites.

The money flow looks like this :

Customer$ ===> Website X ===> LCCG ----> His Model.

What Frottage did was cut "website X out" so that the money flow worked like this instead:

Customer$ ====>LCCG ----> His Model.

He essentially tried to cut "affiliate" websites out of the picture, completely dismissing the value of their own traffic and the money, time and energy those site owners spent in attracting those customers in the first place.

(What is more than sad in this is that each customer he acquired cost his $20.00 each. He could have got the same results from Google Adwords and EroAdvertising for a much lower CPA, and done so without causing so many problems. )

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShellyCrash

It's not like multiple girls that work through Frottage were doing this, just one girl who seems to be wrought with issues. She's not trying to make Frottage more money, she's trying to make more money for herself.

You are correct, except that:
- She is not the only model that was caught doing this
- Steve new it was going on, because he manually added funds to each new acquisition. The basic pitch to existing customers on existing websites was "Switch to LCCG and we'll give you $20.00 free!. The models reeled them in, and he funded the accounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShellyCrash

It's a bummer business between the two of you didn't work out, but Mark- his original post wasn't that negative. I don't think dropping the chat logs were necessary or had your intended effect :2cents

I will agree with you that this is a serious bummer. While his post wasn't that negative he knew full well what he did. Frottage's post was a continuation from 2 other forums which he has already been banned from. He is trying his best to drum up some kind of support without offering full disclosure.

Thanks for your comments, Shellee.

Mark

x-rate · 02-23-2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

And as I already stated, we are waiting for confirmation from our bank to see if your check has cleared or not. If it has not cleared we will place a stop payment on it and issued a new one.

Sorry but just wondering... you dont have anybody on site doing some accounting and check your bank account? So you send checks and don't know how many of them you have in circulation?

Personnally for my business I have someone onsite checking bank account twice a week. So it's look like that if someone try to pass a fraudulent check or direct debit into your account your wouldnt know.

cams2chat · 02-23-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-rate

Sorry but just wondering... you dont have anybody on site doing some accounting and check your bank account? So you send checks and don't know how many of them you have in circulation?

Personnally for my business I have someone onsite checking bank account twice a week. So it's look like that if someone try to pass a fraudulent check or direct debit into your account your wouldnt know.

I have full time support and fraud monitoring 247 and never less than 6 people monitoring at at any time. There is so much in this thread that I just do not understand and there seems to be at least one maybe more Neros fiddling.

02-22-2011, 02:32 PM	#251
2MuchMark Videochat Solutions Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 48,537	Frottage / Steve : I already answered that question. Now I am asking you, AGAIN : Why did you try to steal customers from Mbase? Why did you encourage your models like Jasmine to do the same? Why did you allow her to piss all over herself (and drink it) on camera? (Do you want me to send you the video?) Why did you break all of these terms of our TOS? Why should anyone give you any credibility after all of this? If its too hard for you to answer all of them at one shot, let's start with the first one. I'm waiting.. __________________ VideoChat Solutions \| Custom Software \| IT Support https://www.2much.net \| https://www.lcntech.com Last edited by 2MuchMark; 02-22-2011 at 02:41 PM..

02-22-2011, 04:08 PM	#255
PussyMaster Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 256	__________________ Cheap and high quality hosting with 3 MONTHS FREE Last edited by PussyMaster; 02-22-2011 at 04:13 PM..

02-22-2011, 10:21 PM	#258
livecamd Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7	Mark, Mark, Mark......do you "listen" to what you say ? I am not going to quote you anymore and nor going to comment about anything because I consider it is a waste of my time. YOU STARTED TO SOUND LIKE YOU ADVERTISE YOURSELF and i am not going to participate!!!! Remember: " what goes around comes around" Mark and flash news for you, this is not BBS forum (at LCN) where you can remove threads or posts. Guess what? GFY ranks very high in any search engine.From now on, when people will look up your site this thread will come up first. Hopefully they will find out what type of business you conduct and what to expect. There is an old saying you should consider: " When 3 or more people are telling you that you are drunk, maybe you should think about going to bed..." Last edited by livecamd; 02-22-2011 at 10:23 PM..

02-22-2011, 11:06 PM	#259
frottage Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 68	Mark, I have demonstrated that I indeed had money in my account on payday. I have shown you the email you sent where you said the money was sent out which I never received. I have shown you where you indicated you would not charge me to reactivate your ccbill. You went back on our word and charged me $195.00. I have paid my models since they should not be affected by our problems. Will you now honor your commitments? Last edited by frottage; 02-22-2011 at 11:08 PM..

02-23-2011, 01:18 AM	#260
Tjeezers Webmaster Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: BP4L - NL/RO Posts: 16,556	avoid people who CROWNED themselves to webcam King. __________________ Enroll in the SWAG Affiliate Asian Live Cam Program and get 9 free quality linkbacks from my network! Wanna see how old school I am? Look at this! All my Cam Review Sites are here!

02-22-2011, 02:58 PM	#254
B.Barnato So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,618	wow this thread keep on grow

02-23-2011, 01:30 AM	#261
2MuchMark Videochat Solutions Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 48,537	Frottage/Steve: I have already answered all of your questions. Like my answers or not, I answered them. I asked you why you tried to steal customers from other sites running lcn and why you encouraged your models to help you to do it several times in this thread, and you are too afraid to answer. 'nuff said. livecamd: My apologies to you - I am not trying (that hard) to promote our software in this thread. I am only trying to answer your questions and to present the facts. __________________ VideoChat Solutions \| Custom Software \| IT Support https://www.2much.net \| https://www.lcntech.com Last edited by 2MuchMark; 02-23-2011 at 01:33 AM..

02-23-2011, 01:34 AM	#262
TeenCat Too lazy to set a koala Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CZ/EU forever! Posts: 16,139	and even bigger douchebags ... fuck people living in illusions and own reality are pain in ass ... __________________ 6bot / Coming again very soon! Svit Zlin Radio 24/7!

02-23-2011, 03:54 AM	#263
Paulus Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 10	I told you that Mark Prince was persistent, the clown never wins the argument he just keeps going and going and going repeating and repeating, he is like a bad smell, a child that has to have the last word. Don?t get me wrong he is a clever guy, the LCN program is put together brilliantly to milk and then discard his license holders. The control he has over supposedly individual businesses is immense, the succeed or fail factor has nothing to do with being a noob or an experienced webmaster, I don?t know who said it in this thread but yes, traffic and running a site is a learning curve, and I?m sure most people who have ever been in business of any type realize that, it does take time, unfortunately that time is just not there using Marks software. Licenses are sold to both. If you were to ask Mark a question like ?Hey Mark tell me, how many webmasters have purchased your LCN program in lets say the last 3 years and how many are still live and being operated by the original purchaser now? You would find the number still in operation would be incredibly small. The reason is not that noobs don?t know what they are doing, it is simply that Mark actually reaches a stage where he decides that he likes some of there models and traffic, or he gets his calculator out and realizes that other models in his system are beginning to eat away at his own LCN demo sites models income, winning over LCN customers and eating into his turnover. So he then decides its time to re-balance things in favour of himself and his girls and his demo site. He starts messing with monies, he starts making up charges, and he starts to kick models of Mbase by saying that there is no niche meaning the models don?t meet his own 18 to 35 nerdy girl next door college girl types. The next step is he doesn?t pay, and then contacts the rival sites models to tell them it?s not his fault they haven?t been paid and hey presto. He?s got you one step closer to being out the door. Its all over, then it descends into arguments in his webmasters forum and the guy who worked hard trying to make it work, noob or experienced ends it because of the sheer persistence and the public ridicule, Marks claims that the webmaster did every thing wrong and he tried his best to help but you?re the idiot for not taking advice and that?s not right and you miss understood him or no that not true, you must be mistaken you bought cheap traffic, you didn?t buy enough traffic, you are using eastern European girls, the streaming was no good they wont talk to customers, just like in this thread, Mark prince and 2Much never fuck up they never make a mistake but they do put things right occasionally and claim it is a peace offering a compromise not an admittance they were wrong on any point at any time. Bet you he comes back on this and says I?m mistaken lol I bet you Mark breaks this post into individual sections and rips me to shreds claiming ?you are mistaken Paul, you are wrong Paul.? It doesn?t matter what he says, every single person that reads this thread unless they are related to Mark in some way either in his employ or, will realize that this man even when he is wrong will never ever admit it and the readers will think twice about doing business with him. Oh and he still owes me money that he will claim he doesn?t. Livecamd, Frottage and me and probably many others can?t all be wrong can we, lol I bet he comes back saying we are. Oh well just observations and my opinion, take it or not I don?t really care. Regardless of what he comes back with now, I shall not post again. Finally, if any of you have an argument with 2Much and Mark and you want to club together and talk to the mentioned Canadian lawyer then just drop me a line. PS. I will be launching a live cam network tool in the next few weeks, a simple system for both noobs and experienced webmasters that has none of drawbacks and that is completely free. A system that has no conflict of interests of any kind..

02-23-2011, 09:55 AM	#267
alexxx Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal Posts: 393	I will wait 'till page 9 to make a post... nice read... __________________ 35zero 384 zero93

02-23-2011, 10:15 AM	#268
frottage Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 68	BTW, Both livecamd and Paulus have developed great sites. I would not hesitate a second to join either one Steve

02-23-2011, 11:13 AM	#271
Qbert Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Dark Side of the Moon Posts: 813	Confucius say, "When in hole over head, quit digging."

02-23-2011, 12:16 PM	#280
2MuchMark Videochat Solutions Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 48,537	...continued Her stunts cost us thousands of dollars and upset some of our other website customers as well. On November 21st I sent a notice to the website Jasmine worked for and accused her and the site owner of theft, and put them on notice that if this practice did not stop that their operating license with 2Much.net would cease. All we want is for models to login, chat and have fun. They do not have to like each other but Jasmine did not have to resort to insulting Kedra, making our jobs harder and lying about it. What Jasmine did was attempt to fuck everyone up the ass and steal customers instead of play fair and earn her customers instead. So now on November 30th 2010, I had my evidence and approached Jasmine again with this. Again she claimed it was someone else, until we provided her and you with the proof. __________________ VideoChat Solutions \| Custom Software \| IT Support https://www.2much.net \| https://www.lcntech.com Last edited by 2MuchMark; 02-23-2011 at 12:20 PM..

02-23-2011, 02:23 PM	#288
2MuchMark Videochat Solutions Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 48,537	I will get back to you. __________________ VideoChat Solutions \| Custom Software \| IT Support https://www.2much.net \| https://www.lcntech.com Last edited by 2MuchMark; 02-23-2011 at 02:25 PM..

02-23-2011, 02:30 PM	#289
2MuchMark Videochat Solutions Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 48,537	Hello Paul, On August 31st, you were owed $571.35, not $585.00. In September your account was charged -$75.25 for left over hosting, mbase and other fees associated with your account. Your account was also charged for an outstanding debt due to a studio account of -$207.20. On October 6th check # 312 of $288.90 USD was issued to you at your address: 2------, Birminghamg, West Midlands, --------. We have contacted our bank and asked them to verify if and when this check has cleared. Moving forward, I would like to present an idea. I don't think you took much advantage of the studio account, therefore I will credit the $207.20 in charges and issue a payment for this shortly. Is this to your satisfaction? Regards, Mark Prince http://www.2Much.net __________________ VideoChat Solutions \| Custom Software \| IT Support https://www.2much.net \| https://www.lcntech.com

02-23-2011, 02:50 PM	#290
Paulus Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 10	Mark I mailed you in August, Sept and October regarding outstanding monies to no avail, and told you no payment had been recieved, oh well! I make that $288.90 Plus $207.20 Plus any hold back returns up to and including the 20th of this month, so that is a minimum of $495.10 + holdbacks, this amount is still short, having said that I really cant be bothereed to argue the toss anymore. So I shall expect this payment of a minmum of $495.10 asap then our business is concluded.

02-23-2011, 05:02 PM	#297
ShellyCrash Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Tampa Bay, FL Posts: 6,708	I have to be honest, after finally seeing the chat logs it really doesn't amount to much more than petty bullshit between cam girls. I think you were better off not posting them. I can see Jasmine trying to get customers off LCN and signed up through LCCG to be a problem, but it's not as if these customers were being referred to something outside your network and it also doesn't seem to be at Frottage's benefit to have them do this since he's coming out of pocket on these sign ups which he already could be earning commission on through LCN. Am I understanding that right? Sometimes people can be petty, employees and models alike. It sucks- no one likes it, but that looks like that's all this amounts to, mountains out of mole hills. I'm not saying that this is ideal cam girl behavior, but surely in the course of running your operations this can't be too far away from what you've dealt with in the past from other girls before. It's not like multiple girls that work through Frottage were doing this, just one girl who seems to be wrought with issues. She's not trying to make Frottage more money, she's trying to make more money for herself. It's a bummer business between the two of you didn't work out, but Mark- his original post wasn't that negative. I don't think dropping the chat logs were necessary or had your intended effect :2cents __________________ Start making money with the hottest hookup site! up to $55 PPS or up to 75% Revshare ICQ 196766477