Kellie

I didn't know this was possible till today... but it is.

We had someone chargeback up to 12 months of rebills on a membership today. I didn't even know that was possible, I thought they could only do 4 months at least.. This was a LEGITIMATE sale as well. So they basically got a years worth of content for free, and they were a member for a total of 16 months, so I'm waiting for those other 4 months to get charged back as well. I personally think this is bullshit.

I talked to CCBill and this is what they said:

"Unfortunately, we cannot stop a bank from performing the chargeback - it is ultimately up to the bank if they want to follow through with it. We show that the customer called in and claimed the charge was fraudulent. Our consumer service representative found that the name and address on file was a match and would not allow the refund. Our Consumer Support department exists to avoid chargebacks, as chargebacks affect CCBill as well. To be honest, I have never seen a chargeback performed for a years worth"

Great. When I asked if there is anything to protect us from this since it's fucked up and now affects our ratio he said:

"I understand your concern and there is nothing CCBill can do against it as well. It also affects CCBill's ratio."

I can't believe there is nothing that a merchant can do to protect themselves, this is ridiculous. Has this happened to anyone else?

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MetaMan

You are ridiculous to think it is the merchant. Grow a fucking brain. 99% of you do not have any idea how the core of this business works.

PornMD

God, how can someone claim a YEAR after the fact that a charge was fraudulent? That's basically a guy whose wife just saw the charges on the card, he gave that excuse to her, she forced him to call the bank to try and charge it back and sure enough the bank did it. Just doesn't make sense any other way.

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Kellie

LOL did you even read what I wrote? When did I ever say it was CCBill's fault?

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lagcam

She IS the merchant, CCBill is the processor, the customer is either a scumbag or an innocent party who didn't properly check his bank statement in the last year, and you Metaman are an idiot.

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SallyRand

What you said.

Just sayin'.

Sally.

MetaMan

It's called a merchant processor you stupid fuck. Which this thread is about merchant processing.

CCBILL IS A MERCHANT PROCESSOR. Which the thread is about.

Read between the lines you idiot. Ps your site is a fucking joke.
http://www.liveasiangirlcams.com/site/online.php

paymeback

Dont you log the IP address of the user? Cant you match this up somehow to prove he was using it then contacting his bank?

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mmcfadden

CCbill is the merchant... you are just under their umbrella. That is why you can have a 2% chargeback and still have an account because ccbill as a whole is viewed by visa, not the account holder.

Maybe PaulK can tell me i'm wrong

Ron Bennett

Many assume around 6 months after the date of the last transaction is safe, and for the most part it is, but, as you've found out, not always.

There is no fixed time limit to file a chargeback when fraud is alleged.

In your instance, it sounds as if the credit card issuer is treating all the rebills as part of the same transaction. Bad, but I've heard of even worse happening, as in over a year of rebills being taken back.

And on eBay there are reports of people getting hit with chargebacks for transactions for physical goods that sold over a year before.

On-line transactions are easy to dispute and many know it. Without a signed receipt and/or other documentation it's practically a slamdunk for the buyer. There are services that will help sellers fight chargebacks / recover the funds through other means, but often not a practical option for various reasons.

As to why chargebacks would occur so long after the purchase, very often is due to divorce and/or financial problems, in particular, bankruptcy ... easy way to reduce debt / get cash back, plus keep the stuff.

Ron

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Kellie

Yup, but they said they can't really do anything about it. The bank made the choice to issue it, so we get fucked no matter what basically. The guy I talked to never even saw this happen before.

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lagcam

Hey idiot, some light reading for you.....

http://businesscenter.ccbill.com/

So even the people who don't click the link can see how much of an idiot you are, I will paste it here also

Why Choose CCBill?

If you are a business owner selling over the Internet, choosing an online processor is a mission-critical decision. Since 1998, merchants around the world have trusted CCBill and have relied on our services for their E-Commerce processing needs.

OK, You are right about my site being a joke though. I laugh all the way to the bank whilst sat on my ass.

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k0nr4d

What better way then to get rid of a couple hundred dollars with a debt then a chargeback?

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MetaMan

Merchant, Merchant processor, Merchant bank,

if you have to correct me for talking about ccbill as a merchant then you obviously have too much time on your hands. By the looks of your site that can obviously be explained.

MetaMan

"A merchant is a businessman who trades in commodities that he did not produce himself, in order to earn a profit."

but nice try idiot. if you think for 2 seconds ccbill is not a form of merchant you are a dolt.

lagcam

Give it up brainiac. First you come wading into a thread you clearly know nothing about and take joy in insulting the OP who is obviously already unhappy at the loss of a year's revenue, and then when your error in terminology is pointed out to you, you let out a silly girly childish little squeal that my site is a joke.

When I then explain to you why I am right and you are wrong, and quote you from ccbill's own website (but wtf do they know eh?) you quote wikipaedia or some dictionary with the definition of a merchant and have no idea that this does nothing other than reiterate how stupid you are and keep the thred bumped for those that may have missed it.

You have a nice day metaman, and stick to whatever it is you do well.

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MetaMan

You bold the word merchant and you somehow explain to me how I'm wrong? the mere fact of CCbill doing other peoples transactions and taking a profit makes them a merchant themselves.

O that is right i pointed out the real definition but somehow you putting [ b ] [ /b ] tags from a ccbill page trumps a global definition.

You can call my remarks about your site childish but facts are facts. But you would rather ignore them.

That is up too you.

plsureking

damn metaman wtf is your problem? snowing in calgary already? a little early for cabin fever lol.

gfy users with no links in their sig are the real joke around here. just stupid fucks with useless opinions and no credentials.

as for Kellie - can't you hit up small claims court for that? if it goes to court u can requisition the IP history of that user for up to 5 years. if he's in your state i'd go for it. it'd be worth it just to fuck him back.

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MetaMan

O gawd another douche bag programmer who just finished his first CGI book who is going to put his 2 cents in. Where do you people crawl out from?

plsureking

and u still dont have any credentials displayed. i dont need to defend mine.

put down the bottle and go to bed dipshit.

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mikesinner

always knew this. I thought everyone did.

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livepimpin

It is a bit weird indeed to receive chargebacks after 1 year. I used to know that a chargeback can come in a maximum 9 months timeframe. The number of days varies form 45 to 180 days (normally 90 days), according to the transaction type. However in certain instances this time period can be up to 270 days (if MATCH is the Member Alert to Control High-Risk Merchant System). What personally pisses me off is that a legit customer can chargeback just because his wife cought him. Gotta hate "friendly fraud". But since there's no proof of purchase and the banks dont give a flying fuck on your IP records and such, we have to live with cb's. And the outrageous fees associated with them.

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Adraco

I don't even think it stops at one year.

Most credit card applications and terms of services that I have read, and I've read quite a few over the years for different clients, have a section about the customer's responsibilities.

One of those responsibilities are usually worded something like
Customer is responsible for charges made to the card, unless he acts in "reasonable time" to alert the company of any such charges.

Keywords here, "reasonable time", and that is really up to each bank to set a limit to what would be reasonable time. If a user has a good number of carges to his credit card, say over 50 per month, anyone who's a bit educated can make up a good excuse of how easy it is to miss a once per month small charge to your card.

If you're otherwise a good customer, paying your bill on time, circeling a good amount of money each month through your card, you will easily get either the full amount or the majority of it back. You cant pull that shit every month, but once or twice, without problem and the bank will be on your side.

The merchant has an obligation to inform oneself about matters like this. By choosing to accept credit cards, this is a risk you also choose to expose yourself to. If you didn't know, that's your own fault. I can appreciate that it feels bad and sucks when it happens, but after all it's about business. Credit cards make for an easy sale and sign up, but also comes with a risk.

If you do not like that risk, have members sign up by mailing you a check instead for each month of their membership. Let me know how that retain for you...

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sandman!

welcome to 1999 this has been happening since the begining of porn

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Sergio Payingsolutions

It's probably something you'll hardly ever see again so I wouldn't raise a big stink about it. I've never seen that happen personally, maybe once 3 rebills were refunded. One time a guy called about wanting 2 years of rebills credited, he claimed he forgot to cancel or something along those lines. I just explained to him that I've been in the same boat but unfortunately there wasn't much I could do from my end. I did credit his most recent transaction as an act of good faith though. Did you ever get a chance to talk directly to this individual? If so how did the conversation go?

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ShellyCrash

Can you fight your chargebacks with CC Bill?

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seeandsee

fucking CB and fucking letting them to CB too many months

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DWB

I've had a couple like that, where members have been around for a long time, and you can even see all their logins that they were looking at your site, then CHARGEBACK! One for every month. Pricks.

This is the part of "high risk industry" that we have to live with. If we were selling flowers this wouldn't happen.

wild johnny

I would feel totally stupid calling my CC company and telling them that I have been getting ripped off for the last year and I did not notice it till now..

(credit card company) Sir: do you look over your itemized bill each month?

(Customer) Well aaahh, What page is that on??? Laughing!!

A one year charge back is just crazy...

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gooddomains

Welcome to the year 2000, it has been that way all the time, I've seen people charging back 24 months of membership......

mn

my bank allows 14 months of chargebacks... i heard 16 and 18 was possible aswell... but the bank might take the hit themself for everything over 12 months, i dunno

gooddomains

the bank never takes the hit, it's always charged back to the mechant including a nice penalty fee

minicivan

How the fuck can you idiots not know that it is the bank that issue credit card which is responsible for initiating the customer chargeback? Has nothing to do with CCBill. They can try to fight but it basically means that the bank has to take sides with their customer in a dispute about virtual goods. That almost never happens. Only other way is to argue with the card holder and get him to call his bank and reverse it which also almost never happens.

PornMD

These days, it seems people will trample their own dignity for even a little bit of money. Dude would have to basically act like a retard in that entire conversation with his CC company/bank. If I were them, I'd have said:

"Oh hey sir - while we have you on the phone, your account's closed. Poof! Get an account somewhere else, idiot. Oh wait, you won't be able to because your credit will be FUCKED. Also, we have these things called bl...er, happy lists...where if you make it to the happy list, all my buddies at the other companies will be like 'wow, that guy is so happy, he must not need another account with a company like us!' So yea, should have thought about that before ya called us, huh? Have fun curled up in a ball crying."

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Alprazolam

happens all the time. welcome to merchant accounts.
people join all the time. use the site for 6 months.
site has the records to prove the bandwidth usage. proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is legit.
bank fucks the merchant. happens all the time. they know people do this. we have been told many times.
the bank knows that consumers do this. they even have a name for it. "friendly fraud" is what they call it.
bank will always take the side of the customer.
always. when dealing with porn.
never won a dispute. ever.

CIVMatt

Same thread about every year or so... yep they can and yep they will. Hire a chargeback company to go after them

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Alprazolam

how can they do anything?

if the customer says they haven't purchased and it's not in person with a card present, there isn't shit you can do. NOTHING.

doesnt matter if you have their IP. they didn't do it, and the bank won't side with you.

sorry.

amateurbfs

That is nuts, I have actually bought a member to LTC sites, took the cross sale and rebilled a couple times. Quality spankin' materials in there, plus I like to waste my time imagining what Karla Spice's butt hole looks like. Hell I even made a blog for Latinas so I could spend more time looking at Pacino's content, and I have only worked with gay since I started online 5 years ago, lol. LatinTeenCash ftw.

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ottopottomouse

After I started reading the first post I checked the date as I was sure i'd already read it.

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Kellie

Well that is one good thing I have heard in this thread so far :D

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bolsex

I read in another adult forum that someone got +2 years of chargebacks on a revshare customer!

Hentaikid

It can happen. You can try and dispute it but usually people don't bother.

greg80

Fuck, that's just scary. And fucks up your CB ratio big time, that's scary even more. What's the accepted cb ratio? 1%? 2%?

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AaronM

Strange to see this considering that Federal Law regulates the banking industry and unlike some people have claimed, they do have limitations for this sort of thing.

Here are the facts:

In 1978 the U.S. Congress passed the Electronic Funds Transfer Act which ties in nicely to the Truth in Lending Act and is known in the banking industry as "Regulation Z." Although these laws were passed to protect consumer rights, they also contribute to defining the rights of merchants by limiting the time a customer has to file a chargeback.

This regulation puts a 60 day limit on claims from the date the statement is issued. The card issuing bank then has 45 days to resolve the matter.

Under Electronic Funds Transfer we see the mention of "payment cards" which then links to this page defining payment cards as:

# 1 Types

* 1.1 Credit card
* 1.2 Debit card
* 1.3 Charge card
* 1.4 Stored-value card
* 1.5 Fleet card
* 1.6 Other

So basically, Reg Z also assists in protecting merchants against any chargebacks that are attempted after the 60 day post statement limitations are spent. If a bank has pushed chargebacks beyond this then they are not following Federal Law.

I'd consider taking both the customer and the bank to court.

TurboAngel

That's fucking crazy.

famous

yes you can do a year or so. I did it myself. Got poped by reservations rewards awhile back. Wife bought proflowers then theirs that "click here for discont" shit. She does not know better so she clicks it. It then took the CC info from proflowers and signed her up for something. They billed me for almost a year before i finally asked my wife wtf she was subscribed too. She didnt know. My fault shoudl not have assumed she did. But needless to say called citibank and 5 minutes later I was done. They wiped off 12 months worth and said it was a "common chargeback". (was 14.99 a month)

And I nor my wife has EVER EVER EVER used proflowers again. Humm why is the adlut sales so fucked too...xsales anyone lol. Its a bad feeling to get duped.

AaronM

Your fault yet you charged back anyway. Typical friendly fraud.

mrsmut

Europe's new regulations for payment methods (credit cards, direct debits and others) say a chargeback can be done up to 56 weeks after the charge was done in some cases, this may be one of those cases.

famous

yep. She never put in her CC info. Was taken from one site to another just like a xsale. Well it was a xsale. Thats why no one buys porn. Same shit. they buy one time and get billed 200 bucks for a memebership they thought was 25 bucks. My point was we did it all to ourselves. Shady billing thats why the CC companies will let you charge back just about any service on the internet. And you are miss quoting and highlighting. Its not MY FAULT for the xsale. It was MY FAULT for wating so long to ask my wife about it. If they would not have done the shady xsale we would not have been in the situation to start with.

AaronM

As a person with a banking background who has listened to these excuses WAY too many times, I still file this under personal responsibility.

Your wife is responsible because she did not pay attention to what she was doing. If you are the person who handles the finances and bills then you are responsible for not stopping the charges sooner.