brazz

I signed up with a much talked about interracial site.

At the join page, there was a pre-checked box trying to cross sell another site; I didn´t even look at the name of the site, I just unchecked the box (yeah, being an adult webmater, I am sure I unchecked it).

Some days later, surprise: an unexpected charge from PayCom in the amount of US$39.98 (the original site I signed up with costed US$ 29.99); I didn´t get an email, no ID, no password. The CC statement says PAYCOM.net* PCI, but I have no idea which site this could be.

I contacted the original site, they directed me to PayCom.
I went to PayCom, used their form, sent a few messages explaining the situation, I never heard back from them (no wonder people get more and more suspicious about adult sites).
I will contact Visa, I will dispute that charge and any rebill (due soon, I guess).



So, if you run a site with PayCom and your billing descriptor is PAYCOM.net* PCI, you will be a few chargebacks closer to your VISA threshold.







EDITING: on a second thought: does anybody know which site bills as PayCom *PCI? I will try to contact them and see if the chargebacks are avoided.
Thanks.

MegaPussy

Brazz,

Having tested tons of our own and other sites myself with my card, I can tell you if you want to see what site it is you should be able to pull it up putting your card # and email address into the 'cancel membership' form. If you did so and there are no memberships showing there, something is definitely wrong. But usually that gives you the site name and price, as well as membership status.

- Titus

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brazz

Yes, I did so.
I went to http://www.paycom.net/support/retrieve.html , but the only active subscription that shows is for the original site.
It looks like there might be a problem with PayCom database, but that would be another reason to reply to my queries.

ZoiNk

Why not try calling them?
ZoiNk

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EscortBiz

personally I think you might of mistaked and left it checked.

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jungar

Which interracial site was it?

brazz

ZoiNk,
The international call would probably cost me more than the membership.

EscortBiz,
Adult webmasters know what that small checkbox means; I am sure I unchecked the box.


Anyway, why don´t they answer the queries? Isn´t that what the support form is for? To avoid calls, to correct honest mistakes?

I would be willing to understand any glith that happened (much more willing than the average surfer), all it would take is a message, but it seems they find it easier just wait for the chargebacks from Visa.

extreme hardcore

next time just mail the owner for a free pass

robfantasy

your mind was foggy as your pants were down and you were feverishly beating and stoking your cock, you were not focused, you were in a haze.

it slipped your mind.. you were not even thinking about that small checkbox!

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Rand

Brazz,

I personally am not buying any of your story. But out of fairness, send me your member ID / or your CC # and I'll find out what's up and post my findings on this thread.

__________________
-- Rand


Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

Rand

My email address is

[email protected]

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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

jeroman

I don't think you unchecked it.
In fact I'm sure you didn't.

scooby doo as scooby does

Yeah, I think he did, but I think he missed the second checkbox on the background layer with the size -100000000000000000 font and text 0.0000000000000001 shade lighter than the background. Always gets me.

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woodman

Opt outs are fucked anyway. The majority of surfers do not want to pay for two porn sites anyway but I am sure Rand will make the case that they do.

basschick

we have a checked box on our site, and about 1 in 3 leave it checked. i have talked to a couple members and they DID mean to leave it clicked.

maybe it was a one time glitch or an ie problem? why charge back on the webmaster who owns the site when you can call paycom and help them fix the problem? so far, their customer service has been perfect for us.

thetrog

LMAO!

woodman

Why not leave it unchecked then? Wouldn't 1/3 of the members continue to check it anyway if they wanted the second site?

The only reason not to is to catch the surfer who has a temporary loss of blood flow to the head while he is paying.

Rand

Woodman,

Regardless of my, or your, personal feelings about opt-outs or pre-checks, the truth is they are used in all kinds of marketing, in all types of markets, on and off line. The bottom line for this industry is remaining within required ratios. If you can do that, given that the new ratios leave little room for anything that might cause a chargeback, then you're doing something right.

Stats show that an overwhelming majority of surfers will un-check a pre-checked box. There are programs out there now who have pro-actively made the decision not to buy pre-checked cross-sells. Good for them. Nice to see programs serious about their future intentions.

It all boils down to ratios, and ratios are a direct reflection of all parts of the equation working the way they are supposed to. Your site needs proper disclosure regarding the terms of purchase, the transaction must be quick, easy, and efficient, and their experience with your site must be a good one. Call it back to basics.

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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

JMM

There is a big difference between a pre-checked box for email offers and an extra $50 slapped on your credit card every month.

We had some electrical and plumbing work done in our office. Two months later we start seeing $6 charges on our credit card, every week. I called the company who told me to look at my invoice and sure enough, top right hand corner, as far from the singature line as possible, there is a box you have to check to OPT OUT of their weekly maintenance program. They reversed the charges and stopped doing it after 6 phone calls. However, when we contacted the AG in California, they were VERY interested in hearing the story and obtaining all the docs.

Rand

Ummm...

Jmm, I think we are in agreement.

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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

brazz

So, do you think I am a liar who´s trying get a free ride, right?

You are just encouraging me to go and charge back, but as someone else said (and I agree, as the editing of my first message proves), it could harm a webmaster who just doesn´t know what is happening.

I will email you the info I have, but just to recall some important points:
1) I unchecked any cross sell I saw
2) I got a message from the original site, confirming my membership, with my ID and PW; I didn´t get any mail from this second site
3) I have tried to identify the site I was charged, I went to http://www.paycom.net/support/retrieve.html , but only one active membership appears (the one I meant to pay for); your DB doesn´t tell me what I am being charged for
4) I try to contact you. I used this form http://www.paycom.net/billingsupport/inquire.html , I provided as much info as I could, I did it more than once, you didn´t reply to me
5) I come to the board, I try to find a friendly solution so as not to harm anyone needlessly, and you say "I don´t buy your story"



You don´t sound much professional to me.

Even if I left any box checked (and I repeat, I am pretty sure I didn´t), then what? You just ignore the messages from the people who made any mistake? Can´t you contact the website and see that I never logged into their members area (how could I, if I don´t have a ID/PW, if I don´t even know what site it is)? Or, as I said, it is easier just wait for the charge backs and pass them on to whomever must abide by your rules?



I am sending a mail to you right now.

Mutt

where do u figure JMM was in agreement with you?

it was pretty clear he doesn't agree with pre-checked cross-sales, and i'm sure he doesn't agree that a pre-checked cross-sale to a site with a nebulous title like 'Snoop Dogg's Doggy Style'
is smart business.

__________________

Mutt

2004 will tell the tale, just cross your fingers VISA doesn't decide to dump all those folks who have worked their asses off investing millions in their sites and have treated their customers with the same respect they would expect themselves.

__________________

Bubbczar

One thing you guys fail to realize, we are currently operating within compliance with the Visa ratios of 2.5% and will be within their ratios of 1% when the time comes to be under 1% we will answer that call as well. If you hadn't heard most of our clients are alrady under 1%. So many companies aren't around because they couldn't make these ratios and where not doing crossells or the "evil unchecked boxes". I think the fact that you make such statements without processing with us is sad,. I would guarantee that I could find a several companies using crossells that has a chargeback ratio much lower than yours. Does that mean that you are more of a crook. in your rational, I would say yes.

[email protected]

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Rand

Mutt,

Did you even read my post?

I'm personally not a fan of opt-outs either. I don't want to have to tell anyone I "don't want that" or I get it by default. That's one place where I think JMM and I agree. He also went on to explain a real-world brick-and-mortar situation where an up sell took place which is exactly what I was talking about in my post. Up-sells, cross-sells, whateveryouwanttocallthem sales happen in all types of markets and are not unique to the adult industry or even to online purchases. The reality is what it is. Re-read my previous post and I think you'll see what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to promote anything here and I don't want to explain everything in detail 'cause it's Friday and I want to go home now.

Let me say it again, whatever my opinion (or yours) is about these types of sales doesn't really matter if the program itself is able to remain within the established and ever more stringent ratios. That's the bottom line. If so, great. If not... bye bye cross sells -or- bye bye business. It's pretty simple really.

__________________
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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

JMM

The point is that this is not just about VISA/MC compliance. This is about ethics and providing the surfer with a clean, honest experience without deception.

First and formeost, your text says CLICK HERE, yet you have already clicked there for them. That, in my opinion is deceptive. A surfer, who is NOT as savvy as those that work on the computer and the internet all day, might EASILY assume that the check mark ALREADY IN THE BOX, is simply there to show them where to click. Many might think that if they don't ACTUALLY click it, it wasn't clicked.

I could go on and on, but it seems pointless. I am a FAN of cross-sells. I use them myself. However, I only use unchecked boxes that the surfer must check to actively OPT-IN. In my opinion, that is the only honest, ethical way to do it.

Rand

So.........

Brazz sent me an email and I looked into all this. I emailed my findings to him but I haven't heard back yet.

I agree that he "did indeed" un-check the cross-sells since he is not being charged for any sites that are promoted from the site he signed up for.

Brazz is being charged for something else that was signed up for a month prior to the transaction in question. They are completely unrelated (as neither of these sites cross sell to the other) and each tran used a different email address (which obviously would not be the case in a cross sell). One email addy was the same one that Brazz used to write to me. The other one had "brazz" in it, so I think it's probably safe to assume that he simply forgot that he signed up for the earlier site.

As for the customer support issue. I tested the form he used and received a reply within 10 minutes. I don't know what to say about that.

Brazz, I wasn't trying to call you a liar. I just said I didn't buy your story. Not that you were lying, you were simply mistaken. It happens.

__________________
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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

Rand

I think we agree more than we disagree JMM.

Have a good weekend.

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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

thetrog

Right on.

No offense to the Paycom people, but pre-checked cross sells have been constantly questioned on this board.

Paycom may say that it's doesn't cause problems, but aren't these the same people who are experiencing cash flow problems because of MC?

They can say MC (and now Visa) are wrong and the CB ratios are in check.

But money (or the lack thereof) talks. Bullshit walks.

thetrog

Question: I thought Epoch was cutting pre-checked cross sells from two to only one.

So why are there two pre-checked boxes here?

Rand

TheTrog,

I don't know who you are why you feel the need to make the comments you did, but evidently you didn't read my posts either.
READ what I posted. I'm through talking about cross-sells. If you can't comprehend what you read I don't know what to tell you.

As for rules of cross-sells, there have been NO hard (across the board) rules enforced at this time and any program who needs to make immediate adjustments has been contacted by our Risk Management department. We're not going to let anyone who can't make the ratios continue to process in our system. Staying within the 1% ratio is the bottom line. If you can't work within those ratio's you will be gone. We will not risk our business, or that or our other clients, for any program that can not maintain the necessary ratios and work within the rules.

Is that clear enough for you?

__________________
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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

Rand

TheTrog,

And btw, it's quite clear that you have us confused with someone else or you don't know wtf you're talking about.

__________________
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Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

thetrog

Rand:

I read what you said:

I just don't believe that cross sells don't have anything to do with your ongoing problems with MC.

MC doesn't think you are within ratios. Afterall, isn't that why you filed suit?

Rand

No.

The lawsuit is public record. You should read it if you want to talk about it.

__________________
-- Rand


Payment Industry - Communications - Quality Assurance

andi_germany

What I am seeing here is not deception. IT IS FRAUD!!!! as simple as that.

The text says 'click here to sign up' and it does exaclty the opposite. If you click you don't sign up and if you don't you do.


If the text would say ' If the check box is marked(checked)' than I would say it would at least be legal but like it is it is simply illegal.

I wonder that noone is suing a company like that for illegal business practices.

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scooby doo as scooby does

*shrug* I thought the lawsuit was about keeping within ratio limits. MC has rules/limits that apply to every IPSP, you failed to keep within them, significantly, got fined, are now crying about those same rules that apply to everybody. Think that about sums it up.

Personally, I don't like your company, there is still too much of this 'pushing the line' bullshit going on on sites you process. This is a perfect example. Another thing you notice about that site is the complete lack of a cancel link or any cancel instructions. I hope to god there's one inside the members section. There probably is, buried deep in some small print.

And don't get me started on those 'free' AVS's you process.

Sites like this need to go. Not just because of the chargeback generation, but more because of all the customers who have been tricked, dont know how/can't chargeback/or even too lazy too, but never buy porn again online. This site sux, Epoch sux. All honest webmasters would be better without both.

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prostock

talk on that is why we made damn sure on two new sites we made we have the CANCEL LINK In big bold areas nto to hide shit , i reather them kill it then charge me back .
alot of people i feel should learn this as well and would help out alot

just my

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thetrog

Agreed.

Every time these pre-checked cross sell examples come up, Epoch says they're within ratios.

Yet, they file a lawsuit over multi-million dollar MC fines because MC says Epoch is, in fact, exceeding ratios.

Regardless of the PR spin, it's only common sense that pre-checked cross sells probably add to the CB problem.

shunga

That might be the most important point to come out of this entire thread.

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12clicks

Rand, please keep in mind that most of the people you argue with here are kids who won't agree that the sky is blue.

If you didn't allow cross sells, they would be here bitching about how you're holding them down by not allowing them to make money.

Shrug and move on. if an idiot decides not to do business with you, do you really lose anything?

__________________

thetrog

I don't think anyone is against cross sells.

The argument is about PRE-CHECKED cross sells having something to do with the ongoing card association crisis.

Maybe you've heard about the possibility that Visa/MC may cut off adult entirely?

Or, maybe not.

But hey: I'm just a "kid." NOT

Tornado

Got a point there. Although i am sure there is some explanation.

12clicks

Sorry kid but I've heard the unfounded rumor that MC/Visa may cut off adult.
Of course, knowing the facts puts me in a different position than you.

__________________

Kimmykim

If more people would spend their time deciding on their own strategy in the face of the obstacles placed in front of us, and less time yapping about what other people are doing, there would be infinitely more people making quite a bit more money.

Dravyk

But then GFY would be a ghost town.

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rooster

" and less time yapping about what other people are doing, there would be infinitely more people making quite a bit more money."


Problem is a handful of bad apples ruined it for everyone, so I think it is a concern.

thetrog

I'm in my forties. I was joking about the kid remark, but I guess you didn't clue into that.

I do hope you're right. But the daily evidence posted on this board is not pointing in a positive direction, unfortunately.

I would think that any IPSP's actions (not just Epoch's) would affect a lot of people.

It would be difficult to make a lot of money, for example, if you're IPSP is freezing payments, out of business, etc.

A lot of that is happening lately.

Kimmykim

What is so hard to understand? Visa and MC care about chargebacks, plain and simple. If they cannot be managed then you cannot process using those payment methods.

Denny Tario

Amen Sister!!!

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scooby doo as scooby does

Not brand protection like you said last time then ?

Is this where it all ties in to Epochs MC fines and why Epoch has so much trouble with this particular rule about some refunds counting as chargebacks ? I bet this site generates a ton of refunds when people realize they have been duped thus (helping) push Epoch into MC fine territory ?

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Paying webmaster since 1904