The reason it's better to hire a GOOD designer over a cheap one..

[LadyMischief]

I see more and more people cheaping out on design simply based on price and volume, and forgetting that any design has a PURPOSE, and that's to sell. This article should give anyone a moment to pause and think before they cheap out, then wonder why things aren't working for them. Excellent read for anyone marketing anything on the internet.

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/6...ustomers.xhtml

[designer_AFR]

your damn right but unfortunatly, you can now find quite good independants designers workin for 5$ an hour...it's amazing how customers pull down the prices to the max expecting you to do top Q designs. As a designer, i think the more money is put on the table, the better the work is. and nobody's going to tell me the opposite. We design because we love doing that stuff & we put a lot of pride in it, but we also do it for the green...

[DutchTeenCash]

Originally Posted by designer_AFR

i think the more money is put on the table the better the work is. and nobody's going to tell me the opposite.

so when we put $100 on the table and ask you to make a design its gonna be total crap cause you just want more?

wow thats a new approach

*scratching one of the list*

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by designer_AFR

your damn right but unfortunatly, you can now find quite good independants designers workin for 5$ an hour...it's amazing how customers pull down the prices to the max expecting you to do top Q designs. As a designer, i think the more money is put on the table, the better the work is. and nobody's going to tell me the opposite. We design because we love doing that stuff & we put a lot of pride in it, but we also do it for the green...

Deliver results and you'll see a constant influx of clients. If you can't, bitch all you want. The proof is in the pudding, doesn't matter how fancy your stuff looks, question is DOES IT SELL? Our stuff sells, that's why we're able to offer the guarantees that go with each design.

[DutchTeenCash]

and your sig is too big

[DutchTeenCash]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Deliver results and you'll see a constant influx of clients. If you can't, bitch all you want. The proof is in the pudding, doesn't matter how fancy your stuff looks, question is DOES IT SELL? Our stuff sells, that's why we're able to offer the guarantees that go with each design.

glad someone understands if a design is good and converting I dont mind paying $100 or a $1000, and yes we will come back, but just making a shitty design cause you want more cash that sucks SO bad lol

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by thinkx

glad someone understands if a design is good and converting I dont mind paying $100 or a $1000, and yes we will come back, but just making a shitty design cause you want more cash that sucks SO bad lol

You know where to find me next time you need a design.

[designer_AFR]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Deliver results and you'll see a constant influx of clients. If you can't, bitch all you want. The proof is in the pudding, doesn't matter how fancy your stuff looks, question is DOES IT SELL? Our stuff sells, that's why we're able to offer the guarantees that go with each design.

i'm sorry you didn't understood what i was sayin...maybe my english isn't that good, but i'm not speaking about doing some crappy stuff because the money's not here...i'm talking about the time that has to be taken to do something thats really good and converting. If i spend 3 hours on a design, the result will be less good than if i spend 8 or 10 hours on the same project. I have a buisness to run just like you and nobody's working for free. That's what i'm sayin.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by designer_AFR

i'm sorry you didn't understood what i was sayin...maybe my english isn't that good, but i'm not speaking about doing some crappy stuff because the money's not here...i'm talking about the time that has to be taken to do something thats really good and converting. If i spend 3 hours on a design, the result will be less good than if i spend 8 or 10 hours on the same project. I have a buisness to run just like you and nobody's working for free. That's what i'm sayin.

Sorry to say so, but it sounds like you still have a lot to learn... Best of luck though, hope you'll learn fast.

[eroswebmaster]

He has a point.
Someone always mentioned the guy who's taking the order and points to three signs and says pick two.
The signs read:
cheap
good
fast

You can't have all three.

[DutchTeenCash]

Originally Posted by designer_AFR

i'm sorry you didn't understood what i was sayin...

youre french, 99% here is american or speaks english and you just said that damage didnt understand you.

right.

your sig is too big got that? votre signature est plus large, le maximum cést 120x60 ou plus large pour programme qui sont sponsor

[DutchTeenCash]

Originally Posted by eroswebmaster

He has a point.
Someone always mentioned the guy who's taking the order and points to three signs and says pick two.
The signs read:
cheap
good
fast

You can't have all three.

thats very true but not what hes saying, he says if the moneys not good enough the design is gonna be crap, its the point you view this from

[DutchTeenCash]

Originally Posted by DamageX

You know where to find me next time you need a design.

you did dessie I remember that looked good. we almost picked you but there werent more alike - solo teen - sites on your portofolio.

we need FHG banners etc quite often, ill add you to the list make sure you get an order see

[eroswebmaster]

Well he still has a point.
Back when I was doing gallery orders and you came to me and wanted it cheap, you can't expect that I'm going to spend as much time tweaking it.

Doesn't mean I don't want it to sell, but there is a price point where you can't spend the time you would like on that order and make it really shine through.

As far as the point being made that if you do good work you'll have a constant influx of clients, or work from existing clients that is true to a point too.

I lost a client who was spending almost $70K with me to outsourcing. I can't compete with someone who can get the job done at 1/4 the price I was charging and still earn a living.

[eroswebmaster]

Since this week I can't edit again...LOL

My point being that customers come and go. They eventually need to change their styles to offer their affiliates some fresh stuff.

And when you have people on GFY who keep knocking the price down further and further people come to you who is only charging a living wage and they are sticker shocked.

[DutchTeenCash]

Originally Posted by eroswebmaster

Since this week I can't edit again...LOL

My point being that customers come and go. They eventually need to change their styles to offer their affiliates some fresh stuff.

And when you have people on GFY who keep knocking the price down further and further people come to you who is only charging a living wage and they are sticker shocked.

they do but the good ones stick, weve got business relations going back 15+ yrs...

did I ever ask for FHG? cant remember...

[eroswebmaster]

And as far as the LM's original post. When it comes to designing FHG's, some sponsors just want a ton to toss out there.

Either way for them it's branding. Sure they want them to sell, but they wannt them done cheap, quick and in bulk and flood the market so not only are 1,000's of eyes seeing their brand, but they are seeing it over and over again.

There's a method to the madness in bulk orders...I counseled many clients on how bulk FHG's are done.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by eroswebmaster

Well he still has a point.
Back when I was doing gallery orders and you came to me and wanted it cheap, you can't expect that I'm going to spend as much time tweaking it.

Doesn't mean I don't want it to sell, but there is a price point where you can't spend the time you would like on that order and make it really shine through.

As far as the point being made that if you do good work you'll have a constant influx of clients, or work from existing clients that is true to a point too.

I lost a client who was spending almost $70K with me to outsourcing. I can't compete with someone who can get the job done at 1/4 the price I was charging and still earn a living.

There are VERY few outsourcing companies that can provide you with workers that have enough experience and deliver enough quality, in order to motivate such a move. That being said it doesn't mean that the way he decided to go provided him with better quality, perhaps only better volume. I pretty much hate doing galleries, so I chose to charge $100 a pop for them. Low and behold, I got people lined up for them and screaming for more. Moral of the story: you won't find a lot of outsourced labor to provide the same gallery results, but then again I will not deliver the same volume they can either.

[designer_AFR]

Originally Posted by eroswebmaster

He has a point.
Someone always mentioned the guy who's taking the order and points to three signs and says pick two.
The signs read:
cheap
good
fast

You can't have all three.

well said, it's a fact. and no, once again, i've already done sone really nice designs for half the price it has cost me in working time. Already should i say too often. Than damagex, if you can provide for example a site that converts well with top end designs, it will take 8hours. how much will you charge it ? how much an hour do you pay yourself? That's the point, you can't be under a certain amount of $$. And don't be so rude with my sign as i've already seen 4 times bigger than mine....

[eroswebmaster]

they do but the good ones stick, weve got business relations going back 15+ yrs...

did I ever ask for FHG? cant remember...

No you didn't specifically...I was meaning you as in the general you.

But as far as good ones sticking, yes until someone cheaper comes along...saw it far too many times.

Paysite, TGP/MGP, FPA/HPA design clients are much different.

FHG clients, for the most part they want them cheap, quick and in large quantities. As I stated in my post above there is a method to the madness.

There is a reason someone came to me and bought 100 galleries a month or more for months on end.

That reason isn't because they wanted the galleries that got the best ctr's. They wanted the best galleries they could get for that price, in that time frame that did more than just make affiliates sales...LOL

And that's the truth.

an FHG is designed not just to make affiliates sales, that's just part of it.

[sexxxydesign.com]

mmm I'm not so sure that cheaper always means worse. If you are a good designer, your designs will be good even if you make them for free.. But again If you charge too little for your work... You?ll need to take on many customers in order to make a decent buck... There for... You will have to rush thru the designs.. And it WILL show in the finished product.. My approach is always to charge what?s fare according to the quality I deliver... And take just enough work to ensure high quality... and make enough money to feed myself.

[eroswebmaster]

DamageX I also noticed an increase with individual clients when I charged more as well.

But most of my business was in FHG's..so I had a lot of experience doing this with just myself and 1 employee.

Only when outsourcing really started hitting us did I partner up with a gentleman who had his own company in Angeles City in the Phillipines.

But, the FHG market could be a tough one. The competition was almost strictly about money in the last year I was doing it.

[sexxxydesign.com]

BTW that was my 600th ! post !!! YAHooooooo

[eroswebmaster]

There are many valid points here.
Just a few more variable to consider than just a blanket statement from either side.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by eroswebmaster

DamageX I also noticed an increase with individual clients when I charged more as well.

But most of my business was in FHG's..so I had a lot of experience doing this with just myself and 1 employee.

Only when outsourcing really started hitting us did I partner up with a gentleman who had his own company in Angeles City in the Phillipines.

But, the FHG market could be a tough one. The competition was almost strictly about money in the last year I was doing it.

I agree with you there. That's another reason why I never chose to focus on FHG's to begin with, because you need to churn out big volumes and the work is highly repetitive and tedious, which is something I've always hated.

Our primary focus has always been TGP/MGP designs, since that's the part of the industry I've made a living in for a long time. Only recently have we started extending the service line to paysite designs, combining usability, marketing and graphic design to achieve the best results possible. Experience, combined with a solid theoretical background, really helps do a good job. I'm sure you know all about that though.

[eroswebmaster]

LOL repetitive...damn man I was burned out, I honestly hate the word gallery at this point...LOL.

[Murderous]

Originally Posted by designer_AFR

your damn right but unfortunatly, you can now find quite good independants designers workin for 5$ an hour...it's amazing how customers pull down the prices to the max expecting you to do top Q designs. As a designer, i think the more money is put on the table, the better the work is. and nobody's going to tell me the opposite. We design because we love doing that stuff & we put a lot of pride in it, but we also do it for the green...

Exactly... I can produce a $100 design or a $600 design, depends on what your paying me... $100 or $600. I ain't no dummie.

[DutchTeenCash]

FHG are needed, thats all, when we order its the paysite, banners AND FHG, after a month or 3 a bunch of new FHG with the design, but I gotta be honest making 100 FHG sound pretty boring to me, glad Im no designer

[designer_AFR]

Originally Posted by Murderous

Exactly... I can produce a $100 design or a $600 design, depends on what your paying me... $100 or $600. I ain't no dummie.

yep just be true.

[designer_AFR]

and don't think bacause of my postcount that i'm in the adultdesign since december. Actually, already done that with my team for 5 years now...

[eroswebmaster]

Your stuff looks good man...just sit back and get involved in the community here. Respond when people ask about designers and I'm sure you'll pick up some work.
Good luck.

[Murderous]

Originally Posted by designer_AFR

and don't think bacause of my postcount that i'm in the adultdesign since december. Actually, already done that with my team for 5 years now...

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, the folks here believe you were born the day you registered at GFY.com haha.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by Murderous

Exactly... I can produce a $100 design or a $600 design, depends on what your paying me... $100 or $600. I ain't no dummie.

Thing is, the $600 design may get you repeat business. I can almost guarantee that the $100 one won't. No one wants to throw away money, on stuff that doesn't work, just because the price is low.

[Murderous]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Thing is, the $600 design may get you repeat business. I can almost guarantee that the $100 one won't. No one wants to throw away money, on stuff that doesn't work, just because the price is low.

Maybe you missed the point?

As a designer I know that many people want a $600 design and willing to pay $100. And trust me, a $600 design takes more time, thinking, and effort than what $100 is worth.

You get what you pay for.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by Murderous

Maybe you missed the point?

As a designer I know that many people want a $600 design and willing to pay $100. And trust me, a $600 design takes more time, thinking, and effort than what $100 is worth.

You get what you pay for.

Keep thinking like a designer. Gotta love the competition.

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Keep thinking like a designer. Gotta love the competition.

So you're willing to do 6 times the work he does to earnt the same amount?

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by bhutocracy

So you're willing to do 6 times the work he does to earnt the same amount?

Did you think long before asking that?

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Did you think long before asking that?

About as long as your smarmy little comments to them which are purely for marketing purposes.

[tenderobject]

nice read! we're affordable but we do good stuff.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by bhutocracy

About as long as your smarmy little comments to them which are purely for marketing purposes.

I see you're starting to grow a brain.

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by DamageX

I see you're starting to grow a brain.

Says the little designer working for peanuts and has to resort to trying to pull down his competition with smarmy remarks for the crime of doing a better job for more money. lol. hahahahah. thanks for the laugh *sigh*

[Murderous]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Keep thinking like a designer. Gotta love the competition.

Designing isn't my full time gig, see.

edit: with that being said, I may hire you to do some work for me some day

[Murderous]

Originally Posted by SomeSmartAss

Designing isn't my full time gig, see.

edit: with that being said, I may hire you to do some work for me some day

Oh SNAP! Did he really say that?

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by bhutocracy

Says the little designer working for peanuts and has to resort to trying to pull down his competition with smarmy remarks for the crime of doing a better job for more money. lol. hahahahah. thanks for the laugh *sigh*

Did you even read the whole thread? Did you see anywhere a post of mine where I said I was working for less money? Although I'm yet to charge as much as the more established design studios, I'm willing to go head-to-head with anyone, when it comes to results provided by our designs. Now laugh all you want, but if you want a design that sells, I'm your guy. And yes, I know my marketing damn well.

[Murderous]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Did you even read the whole thread? Did you see anywhere a post of mine where I said I was working for less money? Although I'm yet to charge as much as the more established design studios, I'm willing to go head-to-head with anyone, when it comes to results provided by our designs. Now laugh all you want, but if you want a design that sells, I'm your guy. And yes, I know my marketing damn well.

And if you had read MY reply... correctly.
You would have seen that I agree with you in the sense that a more expensive design WILL probably gain the client more business, not the designer.

And you will see that I am stating simply that many clients try to jew you down to a smaller price and even after the job is finished try to tell you that you told them an even SMALLER price.

I always ask for 50% down payment for this reason.

That was the point I was TRYING to make even if YOU missed it.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by Murderous

And if you had read MY reply... correctly.
You would have seen that I agree with you in the sense that a more expensive design WILL probably gain the client more business, not the designer.

And you will see that I am stating simply that many clients try to jew you down to a smaller price and even after the job is finished try to tell you that you told them an even SMALLER price.

I always ask for 50% down payment for this reason.

That was the point I was TRYING to make even if YOU missed it.

I'm well aware of the problem you mentioned and that wasn't even what I was talking about. Due to abovementioned issue I always charge up-front. If they're not happy, not a problem, I'll be happy to refund them. But I will not be put in the position of hunting down people for money I worked for.

[Sausage]

In my experience 80+% of designers have no clue about sales.

I have had upwards of 30 designs done from around 12-14 different designers and in all cases except for 2 the paid for designs have done worse than the inhouse tours done by our Non-designer.

In fact some have converted so badly that we even removed them as second or third tour options! The designs themselves looked fantastic .. really nice and flashy, but the simple thing is flashy doesn't always sell.

[Murderous]

Originally Posted by Sausage

In my experience 80+% of designers have no clue about sales.

I have had upwards of 30 designs done from around 12-14 different designers and in all cases except for 2 the paid for designs have done worse than the inhouse tours done by our Non-designer.

In fact some have converted so badly that we even removed them as second or third tour options! The designs themselves looked fantastic .. really nice and flashy, but the simple thing is flashy doesn't always sell.

wo0t!

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by Sausage

In my experience 80+% of designers have no clue about sales.

I have had upwards of 30 designs done from around 12-14 different designers and in all cases except for 2 the paid for designs have done worse than the inhouse tours done by our Non-designer.

In fact some have converted so badly that we even removed them as second or third tour options! The designs themselves looked fantastic .. really nice and flashy, but the simple thing is flashy doesn't always sell.

I'd go as far as 95%.

[bhutocracy]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Did you even read the whole thread? Did you see anywhere a post of mine where I said I was working for less money? Although I'm yet to charge as much as the more established design studios, I'm willing to go head-to-head with anyone, when it comes to results provided by our designs. Now laugh all you want, but if you want a design that sells, I'm your guy. And yes, I know my marketing damn well.

Any designer (that doesn't have his own outsourced labor) working in the current adult market is working for peanuts. Anyhow back to point, if you read the reply properly you'll comprehend I didn't say they did a better job then you for more money than you, but their crime was doing better jobs for more money than they would for less.