TheDoc

I have taken Riffle, Handgun and Shotgun before. True story.

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Phil

IF one of those kicks happen to connect you wouldn't know where you are and what your name is. I took TKD with 6th degree black belt.. ex Marine, diagnosed going blind at 25. He can’t see shit within 2 feet but I still would fuck with him. It would even have to get as far as round house. His hands and feet are fast enough to throw few punches and one crushing side kick for you to be in coma. Now, I’m not saying he would go head to head with BJJ fighter or any other MMA guy, but fuck, in a street fight with some homie douchebag ?? I’ll take my blind instructor 9 out of 10 times. Ofcourse you would know better because of some baseball player.. pffft..

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Profits of Doom

No, I know better because I took TKD and several other bullshit martial arts including Shotokan and Kenpo for years, and completely wasted my time before I started taking weekend trips to Coldwater, Michigan in the late '90's and trained with UFC Hall of Famer Dan Severn and Becky Levi, long before there was an MMA/BJJ school on every corner. Every time I would try some bullshit TKD kick in sparring Becky Levi would drop me on my fucking ass, my hip, or my tailbone with a Judo throw.

Like I said before, there are guys that are naturally gifted athletes with fast hands and feet that might be able to get away with throwing some silly TKD kicks and roundhouse punches, but if I had to choose between a 5'5", 130 pound TKD black belt, and a 6'5", 270 pound douchebag homie with no fight training, I would take the douchebag homie every time. The only thing TKD teaches the average Joe is false confidence...

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LeRoy

Nice vid man.

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Phil

why don't you try Emelyanenko Brothers.. Or why don't have Becky try them. Jesus christ, did you bother to read my post

riiaaaaaght, why not 8'5" godzilla? as if every thug on the street is 6'5" and 270 lbs.

maybe you went to crappy ass school and slept thru everything. Maybe its just you, because our guy would it even let us use fancy roundhouse kick during sparing. as matter of fact sidekick was his #1 weapon. Dude, that one side kick can crack you ribs. Don;t tell me that would make you think twice before you continue the fight. But hey, Im sure every 6'5" homie that you know is so proficient in self defense he'd have no problem dealing with skilled fighter. what ever...

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Phil

No, no.. we need a 6"5' NFL lineman fighting this kid, because its all BS.

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Stacks Banned for Life

You should just carry pistols. No one was doing martial arts in the Old West.

Snake Doctor

Asking people which martial art you should study is like asking which church you should join or which religion you should practice.

Everyone thinks theirs is the best and that everyone who disagrees with them is going to hell (or in this case, will get their ass kicked in a fight)

It really doesn't matter, unless you're planning to fight professionally.

How many fist fights have you been in during the past 5 years? How many of those (if there were any) were against people with heavy martial arts backgrounds?

Also, no matter how much you study and train or what art(s) you train in, there is always going to be someone out there who can beat your ass.

So do what's fun, what keeps you in shape, what's interesting enough to you that you stick with it. That's my

Profits of Doom

First of all, use Google and do a little reading up on Becky Levi before you go making stupid comments. I have no fucking clue what your Emelianenko comment was supposed to be about, but Fedor never wasted his time with TKD.

Second, maybe your instructor could throw a hard side kick with force, but that doesn't mean he can magically teach some skinny kid to throw the exact same side kick with equal force. TKD is, was, and always has been a bullshit martial art that gives false confidence to people. I guess you must have went to the only TKD school on the planet that didn't teach spinning back fists and crazy roundhouse kicks. Every other TKD school is populated by fat guys with black belts...

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That video was two dumb kids throwing wild flailing punches at each other, and the white kid happened to connect first. There was zero skill involved in that...

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CYF

I half realized that going in, but I still wanted to hear some opinions from people studying martial arts. I'm not looking to compete or fight professionally at all. Interesting points and good advice, thanks.

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Phil

there was ONE kid throwing punches. White kid threw one backfist. Just one. I doubt he learned that at local 7-11 while asking other kids for their lunch money.

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Snake Doctor

On another note, I think it's stupid that people point to "this fight" or "that fight" as empirical evidence that one fighting style is superior to another.

Royce Gracie was the best BJJ fighter in the world at the time of UFC 1, and he was fighting guys like the boxer who had one glove on and shit.
What UFC 1, 2, and 4 proved was that Royce was an elite fighter, not necessarily that his system was the greatest. (Because to be perfectly honest, BJJ doesn't own the armbar, or the triangle, or the rear naked choke, etc....lots of systems teach those moves, those other systems just weren't as prominent or popular)

Hell look at Kimo. Kimo almost beat Gracie (and put him out of commission that tournament), and I would argue that if Kimo had shaved his head before the fight, he would have won.
Kimo studied TKD.
So does that mean TKD is the 2nd best?

No, it means that Kimo is a big bad mother fucker and his art or style made no difference.

Speaking of early UFC, look at Tank Abbott. No style whatsoever, just a big mean fucking dude who beat the living shit out of alot of guys who had spent years in dojos and gyms.

My point is, that some people are just plain bad mother fuckers, and other people can train for years in every art there is and they'll still be pussies.

Phil

I have see those as well. I've seen kids come to our school from those because they were not learning crap but had belt test every month and had to fork out 50 bucks each time. I never said that every TKD school teaches you a bad ass mofo that can take on Becki Levi.
BTW, you don't know any fat BJJ guys?

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What fight were you watching? They were both throwing wild punches, and the white kid just happened to catch the other kid with a punch, and it wasn't a back fist...

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Phil

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Phil

Those weren’t punches. Watch any KungFu fights. That’s what they do. He threw one punch and knocked Pedro out cold. I doubt anyone fucked with whitie again.

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Anthony

Huge bullshit post.

UFC 1 - 4 proved BJJ was the Best Martial Art, bar none. You can't ask for more empirical data than that.


Because you are ignorant of the subject, I'll educate you. Sambo, Judo, Jiu Jitsu (Japanese) Brazilian/Gracie Jiu Jitsu all share the same techniques. THe difference is setup, and positional dominance. No one knew how to combat it in the early UFC's, plain and simple. Spouting off ignorance does no one any good, and CYF has proven he wants to learn the truth.

Anyways, do you talk out of your ass all the time making shit up? Royce Gracie was FAR from being the best Gracie Jiu Jitsu representative at that time. His Brother Rickson was light years ahead of him, but looked like a fighter. Royce was picked because he didn't have a chiseled body, was soft looking, and looked just like any other 170lbs guy on the street. Royce was picked because he was the weakest of all the Gracies, to prove that GRACIE JIU JITSU was the most dominant martial art at the time.



More talking shit, without any basis in fact. the UFC gave KIMO a ranking in Tae Kwon Do , in reality Kimo was just a street fighter and big. What better way to PROVE that Gracie Jiu Jitsu was effective? Here's another point of fact for you Lenny, Kimo Leopoldo is now a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt, why do you think he trained 7 plus years to get it?


Yah, and when Tank came up and fought a Brazilian by the name of Vitor Belfort, he got his ass KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT. Let's not forget when Frank Mir, a BJJ BLack Belt, tapped out Tank Abbot with a fucking toe hold/ankle lock and Omo Plata combination. Yah, good example there. Everyone talks about the plain bad ass mother fuckers, when in reality not many exist.


Grappling works, and it's not about fighting on the ground, it's about getting up and keep
your opponent on the ground. BJJ, Sambo, Judo (emphasis on Ne Waza), you can't go wrong.

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Snake Doctor

Yeah, because Belfort was a better boxer with faster hands. There wasn't a single ounce of jiu jitsu in that fight, yet you're using it as an example of how BJJ is superior to everything else.

You're hardly an honest broker on this subject.

The problem with discussions like these is that people become personally invested in these things.
A guy who spends years training in a certain discipline (no matter what that discipline is) gets offended when someone tells him that it sucks, or that there's something else better. They go to great lengths to defend their discipline, because in doing so they're trying to validate themselves and the time investment and sweat equity they've put into it.

The same thing is true of people who own a Chevy when talking to a Ford owner, a guy who went to Ohio State when talking to someone from Michigan, even people who host at Webair when someone starts a "webair sucks" thread.

No, UFC 1-4 proved that Royce Gracie was the best fighter out of all the people who entered UFC 1-4.

The conclusion you're trying to draw would be like me saying that Super Bowl 19 is empirical proof that the west coast offense is the best offense ever created, bar none.

Or that Super Bowl 20 is empirical proof that the 46 defense is the best defense ever created, bar none.

While the schemes being used are important, it was the talent and execution of the players that won those games, and players as talented as those probably could have won with the power I formation or a 3-4 defense also.

Of course I don't expect you to be reasonable about this, you have BJJ tourrette's, but everyone else reading this will get the point.

cykoe6

I am no expert in various martial arts forms but I do run a security business and have seen a lot of people get hurt in the streets....... In general real fights are won by the most aggressive and most vicious fighter....... style does not usually seem to come into play. Lots of guys who spend all day in the gym end up getting their skull caved in with a brick by someone who thinks quicker and is a lot meaner than they are.

The person who is willing to do whatever is necessary to cause maximum damage and does not hesitate wins about 99% of the time.

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LeRoy

If you need to kick ass ok BJJ it is.

For further mind and body development check out Tai Chi, Nai Gong , Chi Gong , Bagwa and Kung Fu.

There are few but true grandmasters will know the correct forms. Some like Ocean Form going 4 hours from beginning to end.

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Anthony

Sorry, I thought a guy who was a bad ass could beat a trained fighter, wasn't that what you said?

YOU FORGOT TO MENTION FRANK MIR WHO TAPPED OUT TANK IN LESS THAN A MINUTE.


TOTAL Strawman argument. You don't fight, or train for that matter. So how would you know what works? There's a reason why the three main martial arts used in MMA are Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. Because they have proven to be effective over any martial art in their ranges, Striking (Muay Thai), Clinch/Takedown (Wrestling), and Submissions (BJJ). So kindly shut the fuck up over your red herrings that have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with fighting.


A 170lbs man who beat 250 plus fighters, a Ken Shamrock who trained submissions, and was already King of Pancrase in Japan. How did he do it? Gracie Jiu Jitsu, plain and simple. Grappling beats striking in their ranges 9 times out of 10. It's been proven, go to your local BJJ gym and try it out for yourself. I took my biz partner to a BJJ class tonight courtesy of Just Dave XXX and opened his eyes to BJJ.


Your analogy is both lacking and idiotic. You are comparing a football game to combat. Which shows both your stupidity with regards to the subject, and your lacking in cohesive debating.

BJJ which was used and reigned supreme in the FIRST 4 UFC's, the early PRIDE FIGHTING CHAMPIONSHIPS, and any other fighting org in the early days of MMA. To be a complete fighter in MMA you must be learn BJJ, or Sambo, and Ne Waza heavy Judo. In fact, there are more champions in the UFC with BJJ Blackbelts than any other style. Including the rek neck fave, and yours Brock Lessnar. Why is that? Game over, you lose.

Brock Lessnar - Purple Belt BJJ

Why would Brock need BJJ? Oh yeah, he got fucking submitted by knee bar by Frank Mir, a BJJ Black Belt in their first fight. Guess he learned he needed it.

Light Heavyweight - Lyoto Machida - BJJ Blackbelt

Middleweight - Anderson Silva - BJJ Blackbelt

Welterweight - Georges St. Pierre - BJJ BLackbelt

Lightweight - BJ Penn = BJJ Blackbelt

Give it up, you lost.

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raven1083

cool guys you really into martial arts... though I'm not into it!

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trevesty

Yes. Not in an "official school", but one of my best friends was a hand-to-hand instructor at Quantico for almost a year.. he's taught me quite a bit.

I think what he taught me was slightly "modified", but still.

Snake Doctor

Anthony you're an asshole who is incapable of having a reasonable discussion, so go fuck yourself.

You're so full of yourself and your own opinions that you can't see how fucking ridiculous some of the things you say are.

Welcome to my ignore list.

kthxbai

LeRoy

Oh my getting heated in here.

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habs4life

I feel like fightning now!

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Anthony

Definition = Lenny got showed up as an ignorant fuck on the subject.

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ArsewithClass

To say one art form is better than another is either incorrect or bullshit. I have studied Tang Soo Do which is a Korean martial art. Its very much like Tai Kwon do but with a different style including a little weapons training.
I have also studied Muay Thai of which I still ended up using lots of Tang Soo Do in the ring. I was raised with the Tang Soo Do, So obviously its hard to forget the style, not that I would want to.
I believe its the fighter or the person training that makes the art an art.

I do like the look of the art of Shaolin. If you have studied some form already, why not try the Shaolin. But I would suggest, in future, at least reach the beginning curve of your training, Black belt, before giving up or trying something different.

Good luck with your training & keep fit!

Profits of Doom

Holy shit, is Brock a purple belt already? I need to get back to the gym or I'm going to hold the world's record for longest time spent at blue...

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Anthony

I'm currently at 2 years, and will be probably another 2 years before purple.

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Anthony

Empirical Data. Where a skinny 170lbs Brazilian showed the world that his family fighting was the Ultimate.

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Shameless

Anthony know his shit, why you guys even disputing him? As far as whats most effective it totally depends on the person? I mean how unconventional is Machida, you never know what's coming. It's what works for you. If you want purely sport then maybe synchronizd swimming is for you, or rollerblading butif to truely be a well rounded fighter then you cant really deny anything until youve exhausted its resources. You can take a little from everything, even if its something NOT to do.

Whores!

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Adam_M

True Karate isn't about points fighting and can be great training Kyokushin, Shotokan ect would be my picks. BJJ and other ground fighting arts are a great compliment to these styles to cover some ground work skills. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Muay Thai but I know it works well (just not for me) Aikido is a great choice for weapons training.

Try out lots of different style and studios and see what fits you, everyone is different.

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fatfoo

I took Russian Martial Arts classes in Toronto. And it's called Systema Fighting.

Hey, CYF, thanks for becoming my gfy friend. I saw your friend request in my control panel and I accepted it.

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dougeetx

I used to teach Kenpo (KaJuKenFu system). It's the best for real life street fights and not that crappy flashy tae kwon do. I started with tae kwon do and quickly found out it's more flash unless it's coupled with other things.

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CYF

no problem man

Systema sounds pretty neat, just read the wiki article on it.

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Anthony

Do a search on systema and Bullshido in google. Read what you find. Not even worth it.



What a joke.

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After Shock Media

What is sort of funny is as an outside observer of this thread who did not even peak into it until it was over 3 pages long I gathered a lot of information and had it almost figured out to a T as to what would go down.

1. The OP was already dead set on the Krav Magi, even though he listed it second in his interest list. He was just fishing for and hoping to get additional reassurance that it was the correct style and that it also was cool enough to work in a real fight.

2. Already a given Anthony along with several other people on GFY know a shitload more on styles, fighting, and training than the rest of us. Yes they lean towards BJJ and for a reason. They however flat out 100% diss other styles, unless the person asking could end up in serious trouble. I personally would be all over telling someone to learn TKD - assuming you are interested in form, discipline, and general sport. Not saying it could not save your ass if you got into it with someone. Just as a pure fighting style out of the realm of sports it has lots of limitations and tradition.
Either way Anthony is a real nice dude, knows his fighting, knows the lifestyle and is far from a dick.

3. I saw a lot of my dad is better than your dad shit about to be posted and of course that also happened.

4. Knowing that the OP was already dead set on Krav Magi, I knew he would take 100% issue with how MMA or what he popped in on uses a boxing ring and how that seemed like training for competition. No real mention that it too is at full speed, well with one big glaring difference. No full body pads.
After all Krav even sounds cool on wikipedia. I am also not trying to bust your balls. Hell do whatever makes you feel good and gets you into shape. If you learn some stuff along the way even better. I would just be a tad more honest with yourself. You came into this thread and even the schools with a preset notion.

Personally my father was the only one seriously into martial arts. Switched from TKD to Jeet Kun Do in Oakland a few years before I was born. He stopped all forms of martial arts latter in my life after he was hit in the chest with a swinging I-Beam while welding a couple stories up. He landed mostly on his hips and lower back. Pretty much ending any serious martial arts plus my biological mother (more of the real cause of why he quit it all than the accident) wanted him to have nothing to do with it. I just know he was one of the fastest guys I ever knew (yes my dad) and chest wise as strong as fuck. I often laughed as his appearance cause he reminded me almost of a he-man doll. Had a huge barrel chest, normal head, big arms, and a tiny waist with no butt and thick legs. Well anyways he left that world behind and did the dad thing. Even turning down some movie work because at the time it was huge business and skills were in demand.

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TheDoc

I have mad respect for BJJ... But it IS NOT the end all fighting style. I don't care what these so called fighters in this forum say.

Controlled situations is not fighting... period, point, blank - it's training.

If you want to fight for sport, cool.. please do. But recognize and understand - ITS A SPORT - for a reason.

It does not mean it's the best, and being a black belt does not make you a bad ass, it does not mean BJJ is the best.. It means "ITS LIMITED" by RULES.. and based on the current rules, BJJ is the best - but still limited.

Remember that....

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Anthony

Doc, you know I have mad respect for you, we are talking self defense options here, but in reality you are a true warrior and put your life on the line on the battlefield for our country.

The rules of BJJ follow BJJ's philosophy, positional dominance. That's what makes BJJ so effective, we train the same way we fight, and compete.

To explain further, here are the points system used that illustrate why BJJ translate well from sports to self defense/fighting.

Backmount = 4 points
Mount = 4 Points
Knee on Belly = 3 Points
Side Control = 2 points
Sweeps from bottom = 2 points
Take down = 2 points
Submission = Win

An old Gracie Jiu Jitsu video of BJJ vs Hapkido shows you that positional dominance of Mount controls the fighter, and then setups up the submission. Rorion gives a great breakdown on the efficacy of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

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If you are using BJJ in competition it is limited by rules, but in a self defense situation why would a BJJ practitioner have to abide by the rules of sport fighting? They don't, and they can play just as dirty as the other guy.

When people try and make the argument that BJJ is not effective in street fighting, they also try and revert to things like eye gouging, groin shots, biting, and other "dirty" techniques. Or they make some silly assertion that there is some other devastating technique that they could use that isn't permitted in sport fighting or MMA. The truth is the one technique that is not permitted in MMA that is any kind of an equalizer is the headbutt, and a BJJ practitioner is way more likely to use that than the average guy. In the early UFC's Royce Gracie used the headbutt frequently.

As far as fighting style BJJ IS the end all, and if you know a more effective one I'd love to hear what it is. Of course the best combo of styles would be BJJ, Muay Thai, and wrestling, and if they took all the rules out of MMA and made it truly anything goes again, those three styles would still regin supreme. There is nothing else out there, with maybe an exception to judo, that can even compare.

Now if you are trying to go a step further, no style can help you against multiple attackers, and a smart person would avoid those situations at all costs, even running the hell away if that is the only option. No style is going to help you against a gun either, and the best means of self defense would still be getting a concealed carry permit and carrying a firearm. Being a BJJ blackbelt obviously won't help you against an opponent with a firearm, but BJJ also doesn't teach disarming an opponent with a gun like a lot of the bullshit martial arts out there...

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I'm embarrassed to say I am pushing 5 years with no end in sight. Where I currently live there are very few options, and the options I do have aren't very good. Right now I'm at Ohio Valley MMA, but it is far from ideal. I could go back to Next Level Fighting, which is well over an hour drive away, or I could go to a few places in Pittsburgh, which is an hour and a half away, but those are my only options. There is a good possibility I am moving out of this area next month, and if I do the place I am moving back to has several really good options, so I will get my ass back on track then...

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CYF

Yup, I did some basic research and found two styles that I was interested in. Came here for opinions and suggestions from people that might have taken them, or could suggest another style. I was actually more set on kenpo, though.

Anthony and I kind of butted heads here in the thread on the first page. I didn't understand what he was trying to say about the BJJ guys being in better shape than the kenpo guys, and when it was said a different way, I understand now. I have respect for Anthony and his martial arts knowledge.

This is GFY, of course that would happen And btw, my ninja kitten can beat up your ninja kitten

I was actually more set on kenpo when I first posted the thread. People posted their opinions, and even the guys that took kenpo said to take something else. I checked out a school and didn't really like what I saw there.

The krav maga class didn't use full body pads, they used hand pads. Hit the hand pads bare handed, just like striking a punching bag. Same thing I saw the muay thai people doing. There's even some grappling involved in krav maga, but like I posted earlier, I'll be taking everyone's suggestion and also doing BJJ after a while..

The muay thai and krav maga that I checked out both look pretty effective, and I liked both places. I liked krav maga a little better though. Krav maga was also closer to me, it fit my schedule better, and it was cheaper for lessons.

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Doctor Dre

That is a stupid comment...

First : Royce wasn't the best of the gracies. He was chosen for many reasons, including his marketability. He was fighting agaisn't heavyweight olympic wrestlers for christ sake, he wasn't a better fighter then they were... he was more technical from his back.

Second : The gracie BJJ aera lasted for quite some time. At the time it WAS the best system at the because people wouldn't know how to defend it.

Put a BJJ blue belt agaisn't a TKD black belt, the blue belt wins 90 % of the time. Joe Rogan himself, who is a TKD black belt, said himself that TKD was almost totally useless in a fight agaisn't a skilled MMA fighter.

If you are street fighting, you take way less chances of getting it if you're a wrestler/bjj guy.

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TheDoc

I don't question how bad ass BJJ is... don't get me wrong. Even though we both know it isn't very nice on your body.

I saw a guy drunk guy get mounted by a Marine once (MP), the drunk guy kept yelling get off, you could see he didn't like being pinned.

The next thing I knew, the guy on the ground had moved the guy forward just enough to get his teeth on the inside of his legs. He let go only after someone cracked on the head with an asp.

Before that, the Marine pounded his head trying to get him to release, the guy reached in his pocket during his pounding, pulled out a 3 inch pocket knife and stabbed the marine 3 times in the back.

That's when he got asp fucked.

When the control switch pops.... you have no idea wtf will go down, you haven't ever trained for it. Black belt, newbie, holding a gun.. .it makes no difference.

That's why it's so deadly.

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Anthony

I agree Doc, the only difference I would put in is that in a self defense situation, unless we cannot get the other guy on the bottom, we fight on our back. Once we get top position, we rain down bombs, we dont' hold a person down. If that isn't what's needed, we get up and run. Holding someone down isn't what BJJ is about.

Nobody can beat a gun, and for all the knife training I've done, I know I can't beat someone with a knife intent on stabbing you.

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TheDoc

This truly was all in like... the guy came at him, buddy took him down. Nothing that aggressive, just on the ground ready to cuff. He turned to his side, get off me, get off me.. not even fully, the Marine slid forward, truly like an inch.. the guy turned his head just a small bit.

And it happened.. the guy latched on, got nailed a few times, turned over and the knife happened. That wasn't even noticed until afterward.

And this was bad ass fast.... I was prob 15 foot way when he hit the ground, I was 14 foot way when the screams started to happen.


I saw a guy get his nose bit off, another got a bottle broken over his face, our instructor got laid out and damn near boot fucked because he wouldn't back off someone that couldn't take it anymore.

I fear the switch in people.

To me it looks like that Fedor fellow is waiting for the switch to snap.

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CYF

I had my first krav maga lesson today. Shit kind of kicked my ass Class was harder and more of a workout than TKD ever was for me. I think it'll be a good fit for me.

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Barefootsies

A lot of kung foo mastas

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