Those of you who want health care for everyone, I have a question. - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

KillerK · 03-24-2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BVF

I NEVER said that YOU said that every poor person = a drug user....Where in the fuck did you get that idea from?

You really are an idiot aren't you. Read your fucking last line you posted above and you'll see

"And only a fucking moron would think that everyone who needs healthcare and can't afford it are doing drugs....That's fucking idiotic."

You win the bonehead of 2010 award.

The Demon · 03-24-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerK

You really are an idiot aren't you. Read your fucking last line you posted above and you'll see

"And only a fucking moron would think that everyone who needs healthcare and can't afford it are doing drugs....That's fucking idiotic."

You win the bonehead of 2010 award.

Owned....

Rochard · 03-24-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

Why reward people for being lazy.

Fuck you.

And your going to pay for it one way or another.

My best friend John, twenty-two years old, in perfect health, failed to wake up one morning nearly twenty years. He didn't have health insurance. He woke up four days, four operations on his brain, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt later. He has water on the brain, and since then he's had dozens of operations on his brain.

And this was just the start of his problems. He's racked up over a million dollars in medical bills, and being as he's 100% disabled he has no hope in paying any of it back. He's been through bankruptcy twice, and still has more medical bills pending. He can't get a debit card because he's so fucking broke.

By the way, thanks for taking care of his medical bills. Because he's default on millions of dollars of medical bills, our healthcare insurance went up. But wait, it gets better yet - Because the past twenty years he's been disabled. That's right - we even pay for his fucking handicap license plates.

Lazy? Is he lazy? That's fucking irrelevant. Because when he's laid up for six months unable to fucking leave his bed while the doctors debate if it's worth the risk to open up his brain again, it's completely fucking irrelevant.

Pay for it now, or pay a lot more later skippy.

The Demon · 03-24-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

Fuck you.

And your going to pay for it one way or another.

My best friend John, twenty-two years old, in perfect health, failed to wake up one morning nearly twenty years. He didn't have health insurance. He woke up four days, four operations on his brain, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt later. He has water on the brain, and since then he's had dozens of operations on his brain.

And this was just the start of his problems. He's racked up over a million dollars in medical bills, and being as he's 100% disabled he has no hope in paying any of it back. He's been through bankruptcy twice, and still has more medical bills pending. He can't get a debit card because he's so fucking broke.

By the way, thanks for taking care of his medical bills. Because he's default on millions of dollars of medical bills, our healthcare insurance went up. But wait, it gets better yet - Because the past twenty years he's been disabled. That's right - we even pay for his fucking handicap license plates.

Lazy? Is he lazy? That's fucking irrelevant. Because when he's laid up for six months unable to fucking leave his bed while the doctors debate if it's worth the risk to open up his brain again, it's completely fucking irrelevant.

Pay for it now, or pay a lot more later skippy.

Emotional argument #128294394839. Why can't these people be rational? My brother has diabetes... Do you think him or myself are going to change our beliefs just because his situation is unfortunate? Grow up.

CosmicTang · 03-24-2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

Fuck you.

And your going to pay for it one way or another.

My best friend John, twenty-two years old, in perfect health, failed to wake up one morning nearly twenty years. He didn't have health insurance. He woke up four days, four operations on his brain, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt later. He has water on the brain, and since then he's had dozens of operations on his brain.

And this was just the start of his problems. He's racked up over a million dollars in medical bills, and being as he's 100% disabled he has no hope in paying any of it back. He's been through bankruptcy twice, and still has more medical bills pending. He can't get a debit card because he's so fucking broke.

By the way, thanks for taking care of his medical bills. Because he's default on millions of dollars of medical bills, our healthcare insurance went up. But wait, it gets better yet - Because the past twenty years he's been disabled. That's right - we even pay for his fucking handicap license plates.

Lazy? Is he lazy? That's fucking irrelevant. Because when he's laid up for six months unable to fucking leave his bed while the doctors debate if it's worth the risk to open up his brain again, it's completely fucking irrelevant.

Pay for it now, or pay a lot more later skippy.

Hey Rochard,

I feel ya. It sucks for sure and I don't think your friend is lazy. Neither do some of the cretins posting in here. They're just not sharp enough to articulate their side of the debate. You can't really be angry at them for their ignorance.

What the other side is trying to say is that health care is not a right. It's not even a privilege. It's a business of goods and services to be bought and sold and no one should be getting something for free that everyone else works to pay for. You may not agree with that POV, but that's the rub. It's a philosophical difference and unless someone changes the way they think about it neither side is likely to budge.

I can see both sides of the argument and the merit in both. The only way to resolve this is a compromise of some sort.

Hell, even Richard Nixon tried to pass a law to provide health care coverage to everyone and he's hardly what you'd call a liberal.

will76 · 03-24-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochard

Fuck you.

And your going to pay for it one way or another.

My best friend John, twenty-two years old, in perfect health, failed to wake up one morning nearly twenty years. He didn't have health insurance. He woke up four days, four operations on his brain, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt later. He has water on the brain, and since then he's had dozens of operations on his brain.

And this was just the start of his problems. He's racked up over a million dollars in medical bills, and being as he's 100% disabled he has no hope in paying any of it back. He's been through bankruptcy twice, and still has more medical bills pending. He can't get a debit card because he's so fucking broke.

By the way, thanks for taking care of his medical bills. Because he's default on millions of dollars of medical bills, our healthcare insurance went up. But wait, it gets better yet - Because the past twenty years he's been disabled. That's right - we even pay for his fucking handicap license plates.

Lazy? Is he lazy? That's fucking irrelevant. Because when he's laid up for six months unable to fucking leave his bed while the doctors debate if it's worth the risk to open up his brain again, it's completely fucking irrelevant.

Pay for it now, or pay a lot more later skippy.

fuck you too.

I have no apologies for what I wrote. You emotionally replied about your friend John. Does your friend John sound lazy? I don't think so at all. Sounds like he was very unlucky, had to have brain surgery and get this, I don't mind paying for him one bit either. I am glad to pay for him. It sounds like he really needed the help.

I know I didn't do the best job of explaining what I meant by being "lazy" but I thought most people here would have understood in the context of what I was saying instead of getting all emotional. Either way, I thought I made it clear that I didn't mind my tax dollars going to people who really needed/deserved the help. That my problem was with the people who were abusing the system and were irresponsible.

How do you feel about this? Do you mind that some of the money you pay in taxes go to people who could afford health care but choose to spend their money on other things like nicer cars, or renting more expensive apartments, or they spend their money on drugs, alcohol or gambling. Or the people who are straight up defrauding the system. Or the people who purposely make irresponsible choices like having five kids when they can't afford one.

You are right I pay for it, you pay for it, we all pay for medicaid, medicare out of our paychecks. Hell I pay for it twice since I am self employed and have to "match" what they take out of the pay check I cut myself. I don't agree however, that all of the costs of this new health care bill is going to be JUST put on the backs of everyone who makes over 250K a year. I think everyone should have to pay for it equally just like everyone who collects a check pays for medicare and medicaid now. But the bottom line is, if they said "everyone" was going to pay for it instead of just the rich, then it would have never passed. No one has a problem making sure the poor have health care when they doing it with some one else's money, but if it was their money, a lot of people would have decided against it.

will76 · 03-24-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CosmicTang

Hey Rochard,

I feel ya. It sucks for sure and I don't think your friend is lazy. Neither do some of the cretins posting in here. They're just not sharp enough to articulate their side of the debate. You can't really be angry at them for their ignorance.

What the other side is trying to say is that health care is not a right. It's not even a privilege. It's a business of goods and services to be bought and sold and no one should be getting something for free that everyone else works to pay for. You may not agree with that POV, but that's the rub. It's a philosophical difference and unless someone changes the way they think about it neither side is likely to budge.

I can see both sides of the argument and the merit in both. The only way to resolve this is a compromise of some sort.

Hell, even Richard Nixon tried to pass a law to provide health care coverage to everyone and he's hardly what you'd call a liberal.

You might as well say "the demon" instead of "the other side", because I don't remember seeing one other person in this thread that fit what you were saying except for him.

TampaToker · 03-24-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

Are you willing to pay for it?

The current bill wants to tax the people who make over 250K to pay for this stuff. If you don't make over 250K, it's easy for you to say we should have this.

If the cost to do this was spread evenly to everyone who makes more than 20K a year, would you still be in favor of it?

If you say NO, well the joke is on you because you can bet that this will trickle down to the middle class.

I just can't understand the logic of penalizing people who work hard and are successful and rewarding the people who are lazy and ignorant. It makes NO sense.

Why reward people for being lazy. Why reward people who are not responsible and blow the money they make. Why reward people for not trying to further educate themselves and drop out of high school. Why reward people for having 5 kids, when they can't afford to have 1. Why reward people who break the laws of this control and come here illegal? Why reward people who receive govt money and then spend it on drugs or gambling?

Why do we take more money from the people who spend years educating themselves, who work their asses off 60-80 hours a week. Who save their money and spend responsibly, who wait till they can afford to have kids, who stay away from drugs, who build successful companies and hire people (CREATE JOBS).

Our whole society is based on giving hand outs and rewarding people for not contributing positively in our society and trying to drag down the people who are making the biggest contributions and have busted their ass with blood sweat and tears to do so.

I just doesn't make any sense. How can anyone with 2 brain cells think that this system is fair, much less in the best interest of EVERYONE. Tearing down the people who contribute so they can give free hand outs to the bottom DOES NOT help the country as a whole prosper int the right direction. People should be held accountable for their actions and if they truly need help, then they can get it. But if they are just lazy and riding the system (like most) they shouldn't be given a penny. Get up off you ass and get a job, be responsible with your money, stop doing drugs, stop having kids you can't afford. As long as they are receiving free money they will have no incentive to change... /rant

I for one don't have health care but im all for the bill. I spend around $3k a year on cigarettes. Ok so im gonna gonna have to give up smoking and pay for it with im cool with that.

But one group of people that you have not heard much about is the seniors. My wife works for a health care company. They created a special position for her 4 years ago. She contacts seniors and try's to work with the patient and doctor to switch the patient from brand name drugs to generics. Most of these seniors are on 5-10 prescriptions a month an and on social security and need them to live. Her company estimated with the work she has done with this program that seniors are now saving 135k a month on there prescriptions alone.

I just noticed recently that cnn and fox have been mentioning "donut holes"

Donut holes are when Medicaid and such stop paying for prescriptions i believe its at $2830 right now not sure thu. After that the next 4k has to to come out of the patients. Hard to do when you are on a fixed income.

For the last few years over here in Tampa and Pinellas county they put grocery stores on dog food alerts. This usually start around may/june, They tell the cashiers to watch out for seniors buying large amounts of dog food. People are eating it because they spend they money on the prescriptions they need. Im a tough mental guy but just the thought of that just breaks my heart

The bill is not perfect and never will be. The left and right want to different things. Both are jockeying for position for the upcoming terms. I don't agree with some of the bill but in politics you will never get a perfect bill. You have to give up something and things added to a bill you don't want to get that vote you want. Fucked up but that's the way we roll...

The Demon · 03-24-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

You might as well say "the demon" instead of "the other side", because I don't remember seeing one other person in this thread that fit what you were saying except for him.

Ignore him, he likes to make shit up. It's too funny.

BVF · 03-24-2010, 05:14 PM

Doesn't really matter...It's passed...And the people love it.

The Demon · 03-24-2010, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bvf

doesn't really matter...it's passed...and the people love it.

d-e-l-u-s-i-o-n-a-l

Edit: Let me guess, there's a "silent majority"? HAHAHA

will76 · 03-24-2010, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TampaToker

I for one don't have health care but im all for the bill. I spend around $3k a year on cigarettes. Ok so im gonna gonna have to give up smoking and pay for it with im cool with that.

But one group of people that you have not heard much about is the seniors. My wife works for a health care company. They created a special position for her 4 years ago. She contacts seniors and try's to work with the patient and doctor to switch the patient from brand name drugs to generics. Most of these seniors are on 5-10 prescriptions a month an and on social security and need them to live. Her company estimated with the work she has done with this program that seniors are now saving 135k a month on there prescriptions alone.

I just noticed recently that cnn and fox have been mentioning "donut holes"

Donut holes are when Medicaid and such stop paying for prescriptions i believe its at $2830 right now not sure thu. After that the next 4k has to to come out of the patients. Hard to do when you are on a fixed income.

For the last few years over here in Tampa and Pinellas county they put grocery stores on dog food alerts. This usually start around may/june, They tell the cashiers to watch out for seniors buying large amounts of dog food. People are eating it because they spend they money on the prescriptions they need. Im a tough mental guy but just the thought of that just breaks my heart

The bill is not perfect and never will be. The left and right want to different things. Both are jockeying for position for the upcoming terms. I don't agree with some of the bill but in politics you will never get a perfect bill. You have to give up something and things added to a bill you don't want to get that vote you want. Fucked up but that's the way we roll...

you told me you were on your wife's group plan, so you wont have to give up the cigs ;) If you really didn't have health insurance you shouldn't have to make the govt force you to get it. If you don't have much in assets and you feel like fuck it, what do i have to lose, I wont pay for health care and take that money and blow it on a nicer apartment, or booze, or cigs ;) then why not if that is your mentality, you really don't have anything to lose. You end up in the hospital with no insurance and a 100K bill and you just dont pay. If you have no assets then what can they take from you.

BUT if you do have assets, like a house then you crazy not to have health insurance. (see my link in sig) If you try to build wealth (home, investments, anything of substantial value) then the first thing you need to do is make sure you protect those things. Its like driving 100K car with no car insurance. Would you do it? Remember, you don't need to get sick to end up in the hospital, some drunk idiot can crash into you on the highway. Also, if you have a family, (wife and kids) with no insurance, but have assets, those people are even more crazy, because their exposure is a lot higher. Lot better chance with 3,4,5 people of one of them getting sick or into an accident.

The govt will bail you out if you are irresponsible and poor, but if you are just irresponsible and you have money (assets), they wont help you until every last penny of yours is gone, then they might help you.

Health insurance is not THAT expensive, I just helped a family of 5 (3 kids under 15) get a high deductible plan for less than $350 a month. It is very expensive if you go low/no deductible, but IF you were to get hurt/ill as long as you could pay the deductible you at least can cap your medical bills at say 10K instead of it potentially being millions and bankrupting everything you worked for.

I'm familar with the donut holes, there is a gap if you spend between say $2,000 and $7,000 on prescription meds on medicare then you pay 100% but over the $7,000 or so you pay zero.

I don't know how they come up with this shit, 90% to this amount, then 0% to this amount, then 100% from that point on...

The Demon · 03-24-2010, 05:22 PM

Quote:

The govt will bail you out if you are irresponsible and poor, but if you are just irresponsible and you have money (assets), they wont help you until every last penny of yours is gone, then they might help you.

I'm familar with the donut holes, there is a gap if you spend between say $2,000 and $7,000 on prescription meds on medicare then you pay 100% but over the $7,000 or so you pay zero.

I don't know how they come up with this shit, 90% to this amount, then 0% to this amount, then 100% from that point on...

You gotta love the dumbing down of American society, and witness our downfall starting from the 70s. Now people think they are owed something and it's the government's responsibility to take care of them. Both humorous and sad.

maxjohan · 03-24-2010, 05:26 PM

I live in a welfare country and this is my message to you guys.

It sucks balls here. You can't start a business here without a lot of
heat and eyeballs staring at you. Being successful is ugly.

I detest my own country more and more for everyday. I will move
to England or better yet. Florida or LA.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2e6LFoo1fTg

People voted on Obama because he was black. That's a fact.
They wanted their own black president. And now everything
is going down the tubes. Like France, Norway and my
country Sweden.

Good that i regged socialismcountry.dotcom yesterday

3600 googling/month.
Chew on it.

maxjohan · 03-24-2010, 05:30 PM

It has been in the making for too long. It's by plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxjohan

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2e6LFoo1fTg

The Demon · 03-24-2010, 05:31 PM

Man, I've talked to like 4 people today from the UK, Sweden, and Romania, and they all hate their government insurance. They also possess private insurance and they love it.

will76 · 03-24-2010, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxjohan

I live in a welfare country and this is my message to you guys.

It sucks balls here. You can't start a business here without a lot of
heat and eyeballs staring at you. Being successful is ugly.

I detest my own country more and more for everyday. I will move
to England or better yet. Florida or LA.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2e6LFoo1fTg

People voted on Obama because he was black. That's a fact.
They wanted their own black president. And now everything
is going down the tubes. Like France, Norway and my
country Sweden.

Good that i regged socialismcountry.dotcom yesterday

3600 googling/month.
Chew on it.

The more we punish successful people and reward the irresponsible people, the worst this country will be and the closer and closer we get to socialism.

I don't believe people voted for Obama bcause he was black. Well some people did, but there was more to it than that. I think Bush fucked things up so bad, that he made it almost impossible for McCain to win, and then for McCain to pick an idiot like Paulin, that was the nail in the coffin. Obama is a very eloquent speaker, he is younger, had the mantra of change. He was in the right place at the right time. If Bush wasn't an idiot, didn't go to war with Iraq and bury us in debt, the out come could have been different.

maxjohan · 03-24-2010, 05:35 PM

You are not the only one thinking that he is brilliant. Me too.
And this people:
http://www.google.se/#hl=sv&source=h...778dc0774340e0
QUOTE=BestXXXPorn;16971720]"Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom." We have heard that many times. What is also the price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections. If everything that is wrong with the world becomes a reason to turn more power over to some political savior, then freedom is going to erode away, while we are mindlessly repeating the catchwords of the hour, whether "change," "universal health care" or "social justice."

If we can be so easily stampeded by rhetoric that neither the public nor the Congress can be bothered to read, much less analyze, bills making massive changes in medical care, then do not be surprised when life and death decisions about you or your family are taken out of your hands-- and out of the hands of your doctor-- and transferred to bureaucrats in Washington.

Let's go back to square one. The universe was not made to our specifications. Nor were human beings. So there is nothing surprising in the fact that we are dissatisfied with many things at many times. The big question is whether we are prepared to follow any politician who claims to be able to "solve" our "problem."

If we are, then there will be a never ending series of "solutions," each causing new problems calling for still more "solutions." That way lies a never-ending quest, costing ever increasing amounts of the taxpayers' money and-- more important-- ever greater losses of your freedom to live your own life as you see fit, rather than as presumptuous elites dictate.

Ultimately, our choice is to give up Utopian quests or give up our freedom. This has been recognized for centuries by some, but many others have not yet faced that reality, even today. If you think government should "do something" about anything that ticks you off, or anything you want and don't have, then you have made your choice between Utopia and freedom.

Back in the 18th century, Edmund Burke said, "It is no inconsiderable part of wisdom, to know much of an evil ought to be tolerated" and "I must bear with infirmities until they fester into crimes."

But today's crusading zealots are not about to tolerate evils or infirmities. If insurance companies are not behaving the way some people think they should, then their answer is to set up a government bureaucracy to either control insurance companies or replace them.

If doctors, hospitals or pharmaceutical companies charge more than some people feel like paying, then the answer is price control. The actual track record of politicians, government bureaucracies, or price control is of no interest to those who think this way.

Politicians are already one of the main reasons why medical insurance is so expensive. Insurance is designed to cover risks but politicians are in the business of distributing largesse. Nothing is easier for politicians than to mandate things that insurance companies must cover, without the slightest regard for how such additional coverage will raise the cost of insurance.

If insurance covered only those things that most people are most concerned about-- the high cost of a major medical expense-- the price would be much lower than it is today, with politicians piling on mandate after mandate.

Since insurance covers risks, there is no reason for it to cover annual checkups, because it is known in advance that annual checkups occur once a year. Automobile insurance does not cover oil changes, much less the purchase of gasoline, since these are regular recurrences, not risks.

But politicians in the business of distributing largesse-- especially with somebody else's money-- cannot resist the temptation to pass laws adding things to insurance coverage. Many of those who are pushing for more government involvement in medical care are already talking about extending insurance coverage to "mental health"-- which is to say, giving shrinks and hypochondriacs a blank check drawn on the federal treasury.

There are still some voices of sanity today, echoing what Edmund Burke said long ago. "The study of human institutions is always a search for the most tolerable imperfections," according to Prof. Richard Epstein of the University of Chicago. If you cannot tolerate imperfections, be prepared to kiss your freedom goodbye.

-Thomas Sowell

Quoted the entire thing because he's absolutely brilliant... Read it and continue the debate![/QUOTE]

The Demon · 03-24-2010, 05:48 PM

You gotta read "Knowledge and Decisions".

TampaToker · 03-24-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

you told me you were on your wife's group plan, so you wont have to give up the cigs ;) If you really didn't have health insurance you shouldn't have to make the govt force you to get it. If you don't have much in assets and you feel like fuck it, what do i have to lose, I wont pay for health care and take that money and blow it on a nicer apartment, or booze, or cigs ;) then why not if that is your mentality, you really don't have anything to lose. You end up in the hospital with no insurance and a 100K bill and you just dont pay. If you have no assets then what can they take from you.

BUT if you do have assets, like a house then you crazy not to have health insurance. (see my link in sig) If you try to build wealth (home, investments, anything of substantial value) then the first thing you need to do is make sure you protect those things. Its like driving 100K car with no car insurance. Would you do it? Remember, you don't need to get sick to end up in the hospital, some drunk idiot can crash into you on the highway. Also, if you have a family, (wife and kids) with no insurance, but have assets, those people are even more crazy, because their exposure is a lot higher. Lot better chance with 3,4,5 people of one of them getting sick or into an accident.

The govt will bail you out if you are irresponsible and poor, but if you are just irresponsible and you have money (assets), they wont help you until every last penny of yours is gone, then they might help you.

Health insurance is not THAT expensive, I just helped a family of 5 (3 kids under 15) get a high deductible plan for less than $350 a month. It is very expensive if you go low/no deductible, but IF you were to get hurt/ill as long as you could pay the deductible you at least can cap your medical bills at say 10K instead of it potentially being millions and bankrupting everything you worked for.

I'm familiar with the donut holes, there is a gap if you spend between say $2,000 and $7,000 on prescription meds on medicare then you pay 100% but over the $7,000 or so you pay zero.

I don't know how they come up with this shit, 90% to this amount, then 0% to this amount, then 100% from that point on...

Yeap thought i was too till after we had our many nightly discussions and went digging into things. Alot of things you got me thinking about and made some very good points.

But think about it for a sec it took our conversations about protecting my assets,family and such and this bill to make me see the light. Im really surprised you are against this. I mean i understand no one like to be forced into things i know i sure the hell don't.
But this is actually better for me and my family...

Not all people who get assistance are irresponsible. I mean don't get me wrong there are ones that abuse the system. There are ones that will abuse any system that's out there for that matter.

You say health insurance is not the expensive. Let me ask you this if you are making $15 a hour you really think you can afford to kick up $350 a month for heath insurance and provide for a family? no way whats taxes are like 20% or so. So 20% of $600 a week is $120. Then you got to take another $87.5 out to cover you health insurance. So now you have brought home $392.50 a week home and $1570 a month. Can you live of of $1570 a month? I know i sure cant my bills run $2700 a month. Buy the time you buy gas,food and rent you broke so were is the American dream? Thu good incomes for folks like you and myself its a reality cause we live it, For most folks its a dream they will be chasing for a life time. guess what my point is the system is setup for you survive and not for you to live like you want.

To actually get ahead in life you need to be in the right place at the right time, Know the right people, learn from the right people and associate with the right people and have serious luck if you wanna really get ahead. I keep my network of people i associate with
to a minimum. You are one of only 7 i believe i have met in person in the last 10 years of doing this and we became good friends. Alot of people don't and wont ever have the chances we had.

Just asked the wife here company just moved the donut hole up to $2830 then the next $4k the patient has to pay. After that they are considered catastrophic and they are covered once again.

So if i can live the American dream i have no problem paying a little more so someone out there has a better chance at life. We as Americans care more about a value on a dollar then we do human life and that's a shame

Also why is it that's its mostly folks who live in the rural area are opposed to this bill the the inner city people? But that's a conversation for another thread

will76 · 03-24-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TampaToker

Yeap thought i was too till after we had our many nightly discussions and went digging into things. Alot of things you got me thinking about and made some very good points.

But think about it for a sec it took our conversations about protecting my assets,family and such and this bill to make me see the light. Im really surprised you are against this. I mean i understand no one like to be forced into things i know i sure the hell don't.
But this is actually better for me and my family...

Actually, I don't think it is better for your family. This bill is forcing you to get health care, it's not giving it to you for free. You wont qualify for free health care. So it really doesn't do anything for you. It helps the poorer people get free health care.

I don't ever remember saying i was against this. The problem is a lot of people hear the first couple words of what I am saying and they automatically put me into a group (republican, or asshole / not compassionate) and then their thoughts are slanted and they assume as they read the rest or they don't even make it past the first couple sentences and they are ready hitting "post reply" to tell me "fuck you, let me tell you about my friend".

My big question here was, honestly how many people under 200K a year income in the US would have been in favor for this if they would have been taxed more for it. Kudos to who ever honestly says they would be fine with that. I'm guessing it wouldn't have passed if the people making 30K+ a year had to pay for this too. Even if it was just .005% of their income. People love trying to save the world on someone else's dime but not their own. Just a fact of nature I guess. (again most people not all).

My rant was about the waste, fraud, lack of responsibility and how it sickens me that the irresponsible people in this country keep getting rewarded for bringing everyone else down with them. NOT THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY TRY, AND DESERVE HELP but you know who I am talking about. I just wish the govt would be more responsible with MY money. Before they keep taking it from me and "throwing" it at the problem, why not fix the problem. I feel like I am the only one responsible here. You have a govt that is irresponsible and just keeps printing more money (instead of fixing the problems) taking money from me to throw at people who are irresponsible who don't deserve the money and /or who blow it. I am responsible with my money and I get raped for it. Beyond me, I think it goes to the core of the stability and long term future of this country. If they continue to act irresponsible in govt and punish the responsible people to reward the portion at the bottom that is irresponsible then all they are doing is perpetuating the problem. Let that type of behavior grow and be reinforced over the years and a couple more generations we will be lucky to be a third world country.

"Assistance" of any kind should only be given out to who truly needs it and has no other options. Unless they are disabled or old, they should earn the assistance and not be handed it. Anyone who receives assistance from the govt should be drug tested, if you fail, you go to jail. If you don't want to stop using drugs then stop taking my tax dollars to buy drugs. No one makes anyone collect govt aide. Instead of being rewarded for every additional child you have, in turn you should have to work "x" amount of hours more each week to be eligible to receive the money for each additional child you have. If people are held responsible, it will force them to be more responsible because they wont like the alternative. For fuck sakes, if I have to keep saying how this for the irresponsible people abusing the system and not a poster's cousin who has a brain tumor, friend who is in a wheel chair or who ever else who really needs the help and is not abusing the system.

Why can't they fix medicare and eliminate the billions of dollars of wasted money by fraud before they decide to throw more money at it. Last I checked, you need to fix the problem, throwing more money at it wont fix anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TampaToker

Not all people who get assistance are irresponsible. I mean don't get me wrong there are ones that abuse the system. There are ones that will abuse any system that's out there for that matter.

You say health insurance is not the expensive. Let me ask you this if you are making $15 a hour you really think you can afford to kick up $350 a month for heath insurance and provide for a family? no way whats taxes are like 20% or so. So 20% of $600 a week is $120. Then you got to take another $87.5 out to cover you health insurance. So now you have brought home $392.50 a week home and $1570 a month. Can you live of of $1570 a month? I know i sure cant my bills run $2700 a month. Buy the time you buy gas,food and rent you broke so were is the American dream? Thu good incomes for folks like you and myself its a reality cause we live it, For most folks its a dream they will be chasing for a life time. guess what my point is the system is setup for you survive and not for you to live like you want.

To actually get ahead in life you need to be in the right place at the right time, Know the right people, learn from the right people and associate with the right people and have serious luck if you wanna really get ahead. I keep my network of people i associate with
to a minimum. You are one of only 7 i believe i have met in person in the last 10 years of doing this and we became good friends. Alot of people don't and wont ever have the chances we had.

Everyone wont have the american dream by nature of if everyone had it it wouldn't be a dream... if we all had the same thing none of us would be happy. However, the vast majority of people who wont have the american dream wont because of their own choices, not because health care is expensive. Is your ability to afford $350 a month in this example going to make or break your american dream, hell no? Everything else being the same, if you didn't have to come up with that extra $350 a month how is you life style? the same... Kind of getting off in another direction here but people have to take personal responsibility. Why didn't they have the american dream, well lets see... do they have an answer like "well my parents were poor, un like my friend who is rich because his parents were rich", or is more like " i knocked up my girl in high school and had two kids early, didn't go to college and got stuck with a dead end job. I am working two jobs to try to pay for the kids and can never get ahead. " People need to be honest with themselves why they are where they are and not blame "the system" or "luck". While I agree 100% that some things are much much harder for some people than others, 99% of the people out there can achieve as long as they stay away from the pitfalls that will crush your dreams, pitfalls that most of them will get their own self into. There are so many ways for people who come from low budget families to get into college for free, for them to bust their asses to learn a trade or skill, to be responsible with their money instead of blowing, etc.... another convo for another thread.

Kevsh · 03-24-2010, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon

Translation: I can't think for myself so I can't come up with a valid argument so I'm going to tell him that the lobbyists dictate his values for him and that will effectively end the conversation.

Nice try Kevsh, back to the drawing board.

Actually I was just tired and lazy. But my mistake for jumping into this debate, may as well argue gun control or religion - emotions get a little out of control. So me, out.

Eric · 03-25-2010, 01:04 AM

Will,

I think you need to do some more research. You are already paying for the people you say you do not want to pay for, the social program called "Medicaid" has been in place for a very long time and covers a very large percent of the people you are talking about.

Was the bill perfect? Far from it! There are parts of it I like and parts of it I don't.

Allowing people with pre-existing conditions to get insurance is a good thing.

Keeping insurance companies from setting lifetime limits on coverage and canceling policies of those who get sick is a good thing.

Getting people insurance who have never had it so they can go and get their regular check ups before they find out they have a major problem is a good thing. This saves money!

Putting calories next to the menu items at chain restaurants to encourage a healthy diet is a good thing.

If this means that someone who makes a million dollars a year has to pay an extra $7500 in taxes to help pay for this. So be it. I personally have zero problem paying my extra share to help out those in need and protect those individuals who are hard working Americans that the past system screwed over.

will76 · 03-25-2010, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

Will,

I think you need to do some more research. You are already paying for the people you say you do not want to pay for, the social program called "Medicaid" has been in place for a very long time and covers a very large percent of the people you are talking about.

Was the bill perfect? Far from it! There are parts of it I like and parts of it I don't.

Allowing people with pre-existing conditions to get insurance is a good thing.

Keeping insurance companies from setting lifetime limits on coverage and canceling policies of those who get sick is a good thing.

Getting people insurance who have never had it so they can go and get their regular check ups before they find out they have a major problem is a good thing. This saves money!

Putting calories next to the menu items at chain restaurants to encourage a healthy diet is a good thing.

If this means that someone who makes a million dollars a year has to pay an extra $7500 in taxes to help pay for this. So be it. I personally have zero problem paying my extra share to help out those in need and protect those individuals who are hard working Americans that the past system screwed over.

I'm very clear on how much I already pay. This rant/post was because now there is one more thing that we need to pay for. I just feel like writting a blank check some times. When will it be enough? when no one makes over 250K any more because of taxes?

And if they fixed the fraud and the money went to people who deserved it I would be fine with it.

But you can have an attitude like you have, hey just let them take more money from you. Don't hold them accountable, think that the money they are taking from you is all going to people who really need it. If they don't fix the problems they will ALWAYS need more money to throw at it and who do you think they going to keep coming back to, to get more ?

Do some research on how much money (billions) in fraud there is with medicare. Instead of cutting the waste like any responsible entity would do, they just tax people who make over 250K a year to expand Medicare. If they aren't taxing us more to pay for their failures, they are printing more money.

The Demon · 03-25-2010, 09:11 AM

For Nation-X.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...17-503544.html
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...alth_care_bill

Eric · 03-25-2010, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

I'm very clear on how much I already pay. This rant/post was because now there is one more thing that we need to pay for. I just feel like writting a blank check some times. When will it be enough? when no one makes over 250K any more because of taxes?

And if they fixed the fraud and the money went to people who deserved it I would be fine with it.

But you can have an attitude like you have, hey just let them take more money from you. Don't hold them accountable, think that the money they are taking from you is all going to people who really need it. If they don't fix the problems they will ALWAYS need more money to throw at it and who do you think they going to keep coming back to, to get more ?

Do some research on how much money (billions) in fraud there is with medicare. Instead of cutting the waste like any responsible entity would do, they just tax people who make over 250K a year to expand Medicare. If they aren't taxing us more to pay for their failures, they are printing more money.

Will I am with you, the whole system is fucked up. It has been fucked up for years. At the same time you can't tell me that you and I don't enjoy certain tax benefits and write-offs, and other things that allow us to fit into this broken system just in a different way.

I remember back in college when I was told that farmers are paid to grow crops that are then sold to the government and essentially just destroyed. So these guys can keep their farms going.

The banking industry should have been allowed to fall flat on their asses for the shit they pulled.

The list goes on and on of the fucked up shit that goes on in this country, but I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Robbie made a good point the other day. In a republican government I have to worry about them coming after my paycheck, but they don't fuck with my taxes. In a Democrat government they leave me along to do business as I please, but they tax me more. I guess I am just one of those people who would rather make more and pay a little more.

Tom_PM · 03-25-2010, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76

I'm very clear on how much I already pay. This rant/post was because now there is one more thing that we need to pay for. I just feel like writting a blank check some times. When will it be enough? when no one makes over 250K any more because of taxes?

And if they fixed the fraud and the money went to people who deserved it I would be fine with it.

But you can have an attitude like you have, hey just let them take more money from you. Don't hold them accountable, think that the money they are taking from you is all going to people who really need it. If they don't fix the problems they will ALWAYS need more money to throw at it and who do you think they going to keep coming back to, to get more ?

Do some research on how much money (billions) in fraud there is with medicare. Instead of cutting the waste like any responsible entity would do, they just tax people who make over 250K a year to expand Medicare. If they aren't taxing us more to pay for their failures, they are printing more money.

Will, dont overlook your last paragraph there. Remember, the republican leadership trying to say that this bill cuts medicare.. they actually said it STEALS money from medicare to pay for itself. Well, Obama had spoken extensively about cutting fraud waste and abuse from medicare for a solid year, and it's never gotten much attention.

Here's how it worked. You set up a storefront (dont worry, you never go there) in a stripmall. You call yourself a prosthetic limb and wheelchair store. You bill medicare hundreds of thousands of dollars. because you see, medicare pays out FIRST, and flag a new recipient. They visit the "storefront" a couple of months later, by which time you are long gone and setting up shop hundreds if miles away already. You get rich from medicare fraud, medicare never catches you. Until now. NOW that fraud and abuse is going to be stopped. NOW there will be new payout rules to prevent the blatant theft from those public coffers. BECAUSE of this bill, all that money that we gave to scammers in the past is being used to pay for medical care as intended.

And thats just one example of a proposal, some frantic spin, and what passage will really mean in real terms. In short, what you are complaining about re: medicare fraud, waste and abuse, is something that has been in the bill the entire time.

03-24-2010, 05:14 PM	#160
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	Doesn't really matter...It's passed...And the people love it. __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!!

03-24-2010, 05:26 PM	#164
maxjohan Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,219	I live in a welfare country and this is my message to you guys. It sucks balls here. You can't start a business here without a lot of heat and eyeballs staring at you. Being successful is ugly. I detest my own country more and more for everyday. I will move to England or better yet. Florida or LA. https://youtube.com/watch?v=2e6LFoo1fTg People voted on Obama because he was black. That's a fact. They wanted their own black president. And now everything is going down the tubes. Like France, Norway and my country Sweden. Good that i regged socialismcountry.dotcom yesterday 3600 googling/month. Chew on it. __________________ I went from 100 to 313,000 satoshis in 2 days! Lots of daily freerolls...

03-24-2010, 05:31 PM	#166
The Demon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7,336	Man, I've talked to like 4 people today from the UK, Sweden, and Romania, and they all hate their government insurance. They also possess private insurance and they love it. __________________ Greed is Good

03-24-2010, 05:35 PM	#168
maxjohan Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,219	You are not the only one thinking that he is brilliant. Me too. And this people: http://www.google.se/#hl=sv&source=h...778dc0774340e0 QUOTE=BestXXXPorn;16971720]"Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom." We have heard that many times. What is also the price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections. If everything that is wrong with the world becomes a reason to turn more power over to some political savior, then freedom is going to erode away, while we are mindlessly repeating the catchwords of the hour, whether "change," "universal health care" or "social justice." If we can be so easily stampeded by rhetoric that neither the public nor the Congress can be bothered to read, much less analyze, bills making massive changes in medical care, then do not be surprised when life and death decisions about you or your family are taken out of your hands-- and out of the hands of your doctor-- and transferred to bureaucrats in Washington. Let's go back to square one. The universe was not made to our specifications. Nor were human beings. So there is nothing surprising in the fact that we are dissatisfied with many things at many times. The big question is whether we are prepared to follow any politician who claims to be able to "solve" our "problem." If we are, then there will be a never ending series of "solutions," each causing new problems calling for still more "solutions." That way lies a never-ending quest, costing ever increasing amounts of the taxpayers' money and-- more important-- ever greater losses of your freedom to live your own life as you see fit, rather than as presumptuous elites dictate. Ultimately, our choice is to give up Utopian quests or give up our freedom. This has been recognized for centuries by some, but many others have not yet faced that reality, even today. If you think government should "do something" about anything that ticks you off, or anything you want and don't have, then you have made your choice between Utopia and freedom. Back in the 18th century, Edmund Burke said, "It is no inconsiderable part of wisdom, to know much of an evil ought to be tolerated" and "I must bear with infirmities until they fester into crimes." But today's crusading zealots are not about to tolerate evils or infirmities. If insurance companies are not behaving the way some people think they should, then their answer is to set up a government bureaucracy to either control insurance companies or replace them. If doctors, hospitals or pharmaceutical companies charge more than some people feel like paying, then the answer is price control. The actual track record of politicians, government bureaucracies, or price control is of no interest to those who think this way. Politicians are already one of the main reasons why medical insurance is so expensive. Insurance is designed to cover risks but politicians are in the business of distributing largesse. Nothing is easier for politicians than to mandate things that insurance companies must cover, without the slightest regard for how such additional coverage will raise the cost of insurance. If insurance covered only those things that most people are most concerned about-- the high cost of a major medical expense-- the price would be much lower than it is today, with politicians piling on mandate after mandate. Since insurance covers risks, there is no reason for it to cover annual checkups, because it is known in advance that annual checkups occur once a year. Automobile insurance does not cover oil changes, much less the purchase of gasoline, since these are regular recurrences, not risks. But politicians in the business of distributing largesse-- especially with somebody else's money-- cannot resist the temptation to pass laws adding things to insurance coverage. Many of those who are pushing for more government involvement in medical care are already talking about extending insurance coverage to "mental health"-- which is to say, giving shrinks and hypochondriacs a blank check drawn on the federal treasury. There are still some voices of sanity today, echoing what Edmund Burke said long ago. "The study of human institutions is always a search for the most tolerable imperfections," according to Prof. Richard Epstein of the University of Chicago. If you cannot tolerate imperfections, be prepared to kiss your freedom goodbye. -Thomas Sowell Quoted the entire thing because he's absolutely brilliant... Read it and continue the debate![/QUOTE] __________________ I went from 100 to 313,000 satoshis in 2 days! Lots of daily freerolls...

03-24-2010, 05:48 PM	#169
The Demon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7,336	You gotta read "Knowledge and Decisions". __________________ Greed is Good

03-25-2010, 01:04 AM	#173
Eric Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Helm! Posts: 8,818	Will, I think you need to do some more research. You are already paying for the people you say you do not want to pay for, the social program called "Medicaid" has been in place for a very long time and covers a very large percent of the people you are talking about. Was the bill perfect? Far from it! There are parts of it I like and parts of it I don't. Allowing people with pre-existing conditions to get insurance is a good thing. Keeping insurance companies from setting lifetime limits on coverage and canceling policies of those who get sick is a good thing. Getting people insurance who have never had it so they can go and get their regular check ups before they find out they have a major problem is a good thing. This saves money! Putting calories next to the menu items at chain restaurants to encourage a healthy diet is a good thing. If this means that someone who makes a million dollars a year has to pay an extra $7500 in taxes to help pay for this. So be it. I personally have zero problem paying my extra share to help out those in need and protect those individuals who are hard working Americans that the past system screwed over. __________________ No One

03-25-2010, 09:11 AM	#175
The Demon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7,336	For Nation-X. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...17-503544.html http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...alth_care_bill __________________ Greed is Good