Statement from ePassporte. Please Read - Page 5 - GoFuckYourself.com

Jman · 09-09-2010, 12:59 PM

ATM I'll just put epass in the "lost" folder.

Oh well... C'est la vie

flashfire · 09-09-2010, 12:59 PM

and again no answer about the wires

CYF · 09-09-2010, 12:59 PM

What a bullshit statement.

It's time for some real fucking answers here

SallyRand · 09-09-2010, 12:59 PM

Latest Press Photos of Chris and Michael!

DEA - banned for life · 09-09-2010, 12:59 PM

Slick · 09-09-2010, 12:59 PM

I just logged into my account and I got this, kinda funny in a way.

-------------------------------------
Account Alert!
You must submit verification documents to ePassporte to continue using your account without interruption. To view the details of this request and submit the required information, please click HERE or select "Upload Documents" from the menu options listed on the left side navigation bar. In some cases, additional information regarding this request may be found in your Message Center as well.

We thank you for your assistance in this matter.
------------------------------------------------

flashfire · 09-09-2010, 01:00 PM

what are the limits for ACH withdrawls

gumdrop · 09-09-2010, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

What is a ACH and how do I do one? I am located in the US

If you current hold a US bank Account they can send the funds to it. It's like a wire basically....normally sent to your checking account no.

BTW ACH is also available to Canadian Banks as well. Google Adsense uses it to pay affiliates.

ffmihai · 09-09-2010, 01:00 PM

this situation takes too long. epassporte priority should be how to give access to the money, back to people. if you did not solve with VISA untill now and you werent given a good reason even, fuck them. just give people access to thetheir money - this should be your first thing to do, and after that make peace with visa.

Michael O · 09-09-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blofer80

Can you conirm wires are going out? Because i am talking with people and nobody got any notification about its wire going out.

EXPLAIN THIS. OR TELL US WHEN WIRES ARE REALY GOING TO BE SENT.

THANK YOU

I can confirm wires are going out.

gumdrop · 09-09-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashfire

what are the limits for ACH withdrawls

Depends on the relationship you have with your bank. In most cases there aren't any.

Argos88 · 09-09-2010, 01:01 PM

AVN said it was going to be resolved this week.

i guess they were wrong.

IllTestYourGirls · 09-09-2010, 01:02 PM

MO: I get this error when I try to withdraw to my checking account

"This feature is not available to your account or you have reached the maximum number of allowed Bank Accounts. Please contact Customer Service for more information."

Quote:

Originally Posted by JenC

ACH is your checking account. If you have funds in your wallet and not your Virtual Visa, you can withdraw them into your checking account (ACH).

TY

USA · 09-09-2010, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael O

I can confirm wires are going out.

I have money on Virtual Visa account. Send me wires and i will be happy!

Suckerpunch · 09-09-2010, 01:03 PM

Man, Chris Mallick is good. He basically turned "We're working on it" into 449 words.

I feel bad for all those who have thousands of dollars tied up in this. I have serious reservations that this will get resolved anytime soon and even if things get resolved, they'll have lost a large number of customers over this. The money I have tied up is a drop in the bucket compared to others.

Whether I get my money or not from epass, I'm done with them.

sologirlcontent · 09-09-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

I think there is money. They specifically said it's safe. The question is do they have access to it.

1. There is MONEY
2. They have access to it
3. YOU don't..and YOU won't
4. Buying time, see what assets can be kept and what must be lost
5. Chapter 13 or if it's not a US company...shut down w/ cash in hand
6. Retire on the beaches of Italy

if you believe CM has NO idea WHY..then give me your damn money too and let me blow it

IllTestYourGirls · 09-09-2010, 01:03 PM

I wish the fucking trolls would stay out of the fucking thread so those of us who are trying to get ansers dont need to scroll over their bullshit

flashfire · 09-09-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael O

I can confirm wires are going out.

Please explain why not one GFY member has gotten one...I have also emailed

2intense · 09-09-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta-tester

couple of times more!!!

no comment

JenC · 09-09-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

MO: I get this error when I try to withdraw to my checking account

"This feature is not available to your account or you have reached the maximum number of allowed Bank Accounts. Please contact Customer Service for more information."

TY

Then I suggest you do what it says and contact customer service. Michael is answering emails. He answered mine today within 1 hour.

JenC · 09-09-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashfire

Please explain why not one GFY member has gotten one...I have also emailed

Because Genius, do you think all of their cardholders post on GFY???? DUH!!!!

USUALENT · 09-09-2010, 01:05 PM

ughhhh same shit different day

IllTestYourGirls · 09-09-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JenC

Then I suggest you do what it says and contact customer service. Michael is answering emails. He answered mine today within 1 hour.

I emailed him last week and received nothing and just sent another message to CS.

JenC · 09-09-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

I emailed him last week and received nothing and just sent another message to CS.

Then keep sending them. I mean it's your money, don't you want to take care of biz? Harp on them.

lucPL · 09-09-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta-tester

about the wires... what I was told from another ePass representative is this:

...

so its clear now - FUNDS ARE FROZEN, even wallet money are unavailable

anexsia · 09-09-2010, 01:07 PM

There's absolutely NO EXCUSE for what is happening and this so called "news" is a DISGRACE to all epassporte customers and I hope that the people that currently have funds frozen choose to never do business with epassporte again. Would you really put your hard earned money in the hands of a company that has shit like this happen and then tell you bullshit?

They basically released this message to try and buy themselves time because they're fucked and they know it so now they're trying to figure out how the hell they're going to get themselves out of this mess.

It's not going to be days until you get your money back and it probably won't even be weeks, it's most likely going to take months for the funds to be released.

MontrealPimp · 09-09-2010, 01:07 PM

blows my mind to still see so much hope in this thread still...

Yahook · 09-09-2010, 01:08 PM

I'm very upset with this statement. There is almost nothing useful there. I can only see from it that I still don't understand if there is a big chance to get money from visa virtual cards and when it's can be if it's possible.

Even if it's possible to get these money how do you plan to encache money from accounts in a future? Do you plan to add new credit cards that will take a place of old ones?

And there is a big question about wire transfers. I've heared that some people already got their wire transfers but I don't know these people personally. But many my friends ordered wire transfers and got nothing yet. And nobody knows when they will get them and if they will get them.

rhizome · 09-09-2010, 01:09 PM

Ok, I decoded the orginal message, all it took was some inter-lingual translation, English>German>French>Italian>English

Quote:

We at ePassporte as anxious as you, our value card holders, not only action we see today, we have no good basis on which it received.

Mallick was possessed by a demonic force

Quote:

First, make sure that money is completely safe and protected. I am guilty, and he will be satisfied. The funds are safe.

The devil will be pleased with his new monetary gain at our expense.

Quote:

Second, is the bank with ePassporte Saint Kitts and work as if all payments will be. The details are complex because there are ways to move, when and where they are established, we must all be careful that we are fully and properly account for these funds and their respective owners. This problem stems from our ability to process and report on the visa system and its processor.

This was just taken from the Middlemen synopsis; no one understood what was going on in that movie and it isn't going to make sense now.

Quote:

Thirdly, the most important resource has always been our ePassporte account holders. We do not want business owners affected by the treatment of any other way that the best we can.

Mallick showing some regret but nothing he can do as everything is now in the hands of the devil

Quote:

Most of us had the unfortunate experience of dealing with banks and associations, the paper simple cut-and-us "and we did not pay. These actions are limited to the purchase card (merchant account), does not issue cards , what we do. We can all do some comfort in the fact that this situation does not exist, as the acquisition of the company.

Mallick is abdicating his responsibility - the devil as spirit is immaterial; the actions of something immaterial upon the material world can not be comprehended by a corporeal being; therefore, the current crisis does not exist within the scope of our knowledge.

Quote:

We all understand that communication is essential to our cardholders. However, it does not allow us, if we are constantly updated on the basis of appeals has almost every hour. It seems that your analysis, based on agreements, we are working to the best form of communication. This is what we do. If we know something is a fact, we report on the subject, fast. Our staff is working to solve these problems and many complex details in motion and recover the money. Therefore, please do not misinterpret our silence as a "cache", "prevention" or "walk". We also have resources that are connected to the system, and the enormous cost of running without income.

Here Mallick is actually trying to do his best to open the lines of communication by refuting some of the more common allegations being thrown around. Let it be know that at this point Mallick's equivocality is not a result of a cache, prevention or walk.

Quote:

Certainly, if we know, you know, and you are all satisfied with the outcome of the rest. Again, your money is safe.

Either you know or you don't. What you don't know obviously can't harm you. Since no one knows what is going on, no one is harmed.

Quote:

For those of you in the industry for many years, I hope you remember that I have a very strong record of fighting for the rights of the Webmaster, sponsored program, billing companies, traders and industry, the commitment continues.

All in past tense, before the possession.

Quote:

We appreciate your understanding in this difficult time and for your support over the last eight years of our activity.

No matter how many attempts are made to decode this, it always comes out the same. Bullshit is a universal language.

zeuse · 09-09-2010, 01:09 PM

Is the bank paying you interest on my money that you wont let me access?

IllTestYourGirls · 09-09-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anexsia

There's absolutely NO EXCUSE for what is happening and this so called "news" is a DISGRACE to all epassporte customers and I hope that the people that currently have funds frozen choose to never do business with epassporte again. Would you really put your hard earned money in the hands of a company that has shit like this happen and then tell you bullshit?

They basically released this message to try and buy themselves time because they're fucked and they know it so now they're trying to figure out how the hell they're going to get themselves out of this mess.

It's not going to be days until you get your money back and it probably won't even be weeks, it's most likely going to take months for the funds to be released.

Yeah I wont do business with them again after this. I was planning on it but not anymore.

Cradle · 09-09-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slick

I just logged into my account and I got this, kinda funny in a way.

-------------------------------------
Account Alert!
You must submit verification documents to ePassporte to continue using your account without interruption. To view the details of this request and submit the required information, please click HERE or select "Upload Documents" from the menu options listed on the left side navigation bar. In some cases, additional information regarding this request may be found in your Message Center as well.

We thank you for your assistance in this matter.
------------------------------------------------

good luck. i have that too, seems they arent going to review my documents, and when they do they'll prolly just deny one so i can wait all over again.

LeivaMedia · 09-09-2010, 01:11 PM

This is what you see when you login in Rehab Dollars

2 months later, and what happen with that money ? of who work with RD including me that money is gone.

flashfire · 09-09-2010, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JenC

Because Genius, do you think all of their cardholders post on GFY???? DUH!!!!

You cant be serious...don't you find it odd that nobody on here has gotten a wire? Obviously a large portion of their customers are GFYers considering they are making "official statements" on here.

epitome · 09-09-2010, 01:12 PM

So at this point, Kreb's has more information on the Epass situation than Epass does?

At least they were able to report a statement from Visa saying that St. Kitts requested that everything be halted due to "program deficiencies." What are those deficiencies reported to Visa? Surely Epass knows what they are if Visa does.

I was remaining optimistic about this entire situation but it has now been a week since things halted and Epass is still claiming to be in the dark.

bbm · 09-09-2010, 01:14 PM

ok michael, thanks.
and now, we wait statement. I think, statement will today?

alan-l · 09-09-2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael O

Second, ePassporte is working with the St. Kitts bank to work out how all payments will be made and when. The details are complicated, because there are funds in motion and where and when they settle requires us to all be careful that we fully and properly account for all those funds and their rightful owner. This issue stems from our processing and reporting ability through the Visa system and their processor.

As a whole, one of the most non-professional statements I've ever seen in such sensitive issues. And the bolded part is a real attention call. so Michael, please answer this question in a direct straight way: does EPass keep the mimimum reserve required by law? YES OR NO? It's a very easy to answer question. And if yes: why so much problem to give the money back to cardholders? If not: what is the legal address for Epassporte corporate office? Simple and to the point, please answer these legit and logical questions.

CYF · 09-09-2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anexsia

There's absolutely NO EXCUSE for what is happening and this so called "news" is a DISGRACE to all epassporte customers and I hope that the people that currently have funds frozen choose to never do business with epassporte again. Would you really put your hard earned money in the hands of a company that has shit like this happen and then tell you bullshit?

They basically released this message to try and buy themselves time because they're fucked and they know it so now they're trying to figure out how the hell they're going to get themselves out of this mess.

It's not going to be days until you get your money back and it probably won't even be weeks, it's most likely going to take months for the funds to be released.

agreed, what a bullshit fucking statement.

Fat Panda · 09-09-2010, 01:15 PM

Where in the world is Mallick?

Dreamteam · 09-09-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael O

Second, ePassporte is working with the St. Kitts bank to work out how all payments will be made and when.

It seems they're just looking for a good way to clean all accounts
(read: how to return all funds back to the account holders)

This is not good ... seems debit cards won't be an option anymore.

For me the money locked in my account ($6000) is not first priority.

The continuation of epassporte is more important.

..

Tempest · 09-09-2010, 01:18 PM

What I need to know is if the VV thing will be resolved very soon or if I should go ahead and do a wire transfer.

rublerum · 09-09-2010, 01:18 PM

sad, I hope Epass can consider to remotely move our vv money to wallet so we can withdraw it via wire. Or they start a new extra system work to send our money via western union (which I think its the easiest thing to do) even it cost for $50 to $200 so we can get our money back if ever there is no totally chance that the visa will work again.

thanks

MrDeiz · 09-09-2010, 01:18 PM

wow, not good news at all (((

LeivaMedia · 09-09-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAC

Where in the world is Mallick?

In his house watching the Middle Men

lucPL · 09-09-2010, 01:21 PM

damn i wont sleep today after post about ibill and rehabdollars. same shit in statement, propably same shitty ending...

nnweb · 09-09-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAC

Where in the world is Mallick?

flying around on his jet w/hookers.

epitome · 09-09-2010, 01:22 PM

Mallick should be making customers whole again, no matter the amount, and then work on righting his ship. If he's so confident that things will be fine he needs to put his money where his mouth is, reach into his personal bank account that he's padded over the years with all of the various charges Epass has for services and make people whole.

If he doesn't have enough to pay everybody back then he should reconsider when deciding to finance an entire movie in the future and/or pay back a % to each customer that he can afford whether it be 10% or 50%.

The cash that he threw into Middle Men should would be handy right now. At this point I am just hoping that he didn't treat Epass like a bank and take a loan from his own company to finance something else.

The "deficiencies" Visa mentioned in a statement is what worried me. Was it a cash deficiency or an operations/security/whatever deficiency? The fact that Epass isn't mentioning it is what worries me.

nico-t · 09-09-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Yeah I wont do business with them again after this. I was planning on it but not anymore.

same here. Fuck them.

sexologist · 09-09-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukke

I am optimist.

me 2, cause there is no other thing that I can do... just wait and be optimistic,

Michael O · 09-09-2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

I emailed him last week and received nothing and just sent another message to CS.

Please email me again [email protected] and if I do not answer within 24 hours something is wrong. I answer all emails within 24 hours but I may miss one or not get it for some reason, if you get an auto response when you email me then I have received it and will respond within 24 hours.

09-09-2010, 12:59 PM	#201
Jman Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Canuckstikan Posts: 22,662	ATM I'll just put epass in the "lost" folder. Oh well... C'est la vie __________________ Wowify AI API Porn.AI Affiliates Porn AI email: [email protected] Teams: jean.francois.laverdiere TG: @jman1216

09-09-2010, 12:59 PM	#203
CYF Coupon Guru Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 10,973	What a bullshit statement. It's time for some real fucking answers here __________________ Webmaster Coupons Coupons and discounts for hosting, domains, SSL Certs, and more! AmeriNOC Coupons \| Certified Hosting Coupons \| Hosting Coupons \| Domain Name Coupons

09-09-2010, 01:00 PM	#209
ffmihai keep walking... Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 7,177	this situation takes too long. epassporte priority should be how to give access to the money, back to people. if you did not solve with VISA untill now and you werent given a good reason even, fuck them. just give people access to thetheir money - this should be your first thing to do, and after that make peace with visa. __________________

09-09-2010, 01:03 PM	#217
IllTestYourGirls Ah My Balls Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Under the gold leaf ICQ 388-454-421 Posts: 14,311	I wish the fucking trolls would stay out of the fucking thread so those of us who are trying to get ansers dont need to scroll over their bullshit __________________

09-09-2010, 01:05 PM	#222
USUALENT Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ATLANTA HOES Posts: 1,888	ughhhh same shit different day __________________ 2 links on 300 sites for $150 Cheap Discounted Domains icq me for cheap perm link 468553619 black amateur videos

09-09-2010, 12:59 PM	#202
flashfire ICQ 1 6 7 8 5 3 4 9 2 Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 13,098	and again no answer about the wires

09-09-2010, 12:59 PM	#204
SallyRand So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: In A Galaxie Far, Far Away! Posts: 3,487	Latest Press Photos of Chris and Michael!

09-09-2010, 12:59 PM	#205
DEA - banned for life V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: InYour Head Posts: 7,886

09-09-2010, 12:59 PM	#206
Slick Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Houghton, MI Posts: 7,338	I just logged into my account and I got this, kinda funny in a way. ------------------------------------- Account Alert! You must submit verification documents to ePassporte to continue using your account without interruption. To view the details of this request and submit the required information, please click HERE or select "Upload Documents" from the menu options listed on the left side navigation bar. In some cases, additional information regarding this request may be found in your Message Center as well. We thank you for your assistance in this matter. ------------------------------------------------

09-09-2010, 01:00 PM	#207
flashfire ICQ 1 6 7 8 5 3 4 9 2 Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 13,098	what are the limits for ACH withdrawls

09-09-2010, 01:01 PM	#212
Argos88 So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,732	AVN said it was going to be resolved this week. i guess they were wrong.

09-09-2010, 01:03 PM	#215
Suckerpunch Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,156	Man, Chris Mallick is good. He basically turned "We're working on it" into 449 words. I feel bad for all those who have thousands of dollars tied up in this. I have serious reservations that this will get resolved anytime soon and even if things get resolved, they'll have lost a large number of customers over this. The money I have tied up is a drop in the bucket compared to others. Whether I get my money or not from epass, I'm done with them.

09-09-2010, 01:07 PM	#226
anexsia Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 5,735	There's absolutely NO EXCUSE for what is happening and this so called "news" is a DISGRACE to all epassporte customers and I hope that the people that currently have funds frozen choose to never do business with epassporte again. Would you really put your hard earned money in the hands of a company that has shit like this happen and then tell you bullshit? They basically released this message to try and buy themselves time because they're fucked and they know it so now they're trying to figure out how the hell they're going to get themselves out of this mess. It's not going to be days until you get your money back and it probably won't even be weeks, it's most likely going to take months for the funds to be released.

09-09-2010, 01:07 PM	#227
MontrealPimp Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 937	blows my mind to still see so much hope in this thread still...

09-09-2010, 01:08 PM	#228
Yahook Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Global traveler Posts: 840	I'm very upset with this statement. There is almost nothing useful there. I can only see from it that I still don't understand if there is a big chance to get money from visa virtual cards and when it's can be if it's possible. Even if it's possible to get these money how do you plan to encache money from accounts in a future? Do you plan to add new credit cards that will take a place of old ones? And there is a big question about wire transfers. I've heared that some people already got their wire transfers but I don't know these people personally. But many my friends ordered wire transfers and got nothing yet. And nobody knows when they will get them and if they will get them.

09-09-2010, 01:09 PM	#230
zeuse Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: + ENGLAND Posts: 499	Is the bank paying you interest on my money that you wont let me access?

09-09-2010, 01:11 PM	#233
LeivaMedia Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 338	This is what you see when you login in Rehab Dollars 2 months later, and what happen with that money ? of who work with RD including me that money is gone. __________________ Leiva Media Contact ICQ: 366515936 Click to view Email: [email protected]

09-09-2010, 01:12 PM	#235
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,158	So at this point, Kreb's has more information on the Epass situation than Epass does? At least they were able to report a statement from Visa saying that St. Kitts requested that everything be halted due to "program deficiencies." What are those deficiencies reported to Visa? Surely Epass knows what they are if Visa does. I was remaining optimistic about this entire situation but it has now been a week since things halted and Epass is still claiming to be in the dark.

09-09-2010, 01:14 PM	#236
bbm So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 3,710	ok michael, thanks. and now, we wait statement. I think, statement will today?

09-09-2010, 01:15 PM	#239
Fat Panda Porn is Dead. Move along. Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 13,295	Where in the world is Mallick?

09-09-2010, 01:18 PM	#241
Tempest Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Location: West Coast, Canada. Posts: 10,217	What I need to know is if the VV thing will be resolved very soon or if I should go ahead and do a wire transfer.

09-09-2010, 01:18 PM	#242
rublerum Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 27	sad, I hope Epass can consider to remotely move our vv money to wallet so we can withdraw it via wire. Or they start a new extra system work to send our money via western union (which I think its the easiest thing to do) even it cost for $50 to $200 so we can get our money back if ever there is no totally chance that the visa will work again. thanks Last edited by rublerum; 09-09-2010 at 01:21 PM..

09-09-2010, 01:18 PM	#243
MrDeiz SignBucksDaily.com Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 9,802	wow, not good news at all ((( __________________ Make money with WEBC$MS The only way to still make money in adult

09-09-2010, 01:21 PM	#245
lucPL Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: EUCCP Posts: 305	damn i wont sleep today after post about ibill and rehabdollars. same shit in statement, propably same shitty ending...

09-09-2010, 01:22 PM	#247
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,158	Mallick should be making customers whole again, no matter the amount, and then work on righting his ship. If he's so confident that things will be fine he needs to put his money where his mouth is, reach into his personal bank account that he's padded over the years with all of the various charges Epass has for services and make people whole. If he doesn't have enough to pay everybody back then he should reconsider when deciding to finance an entire movie in the future and/or pay back a % to each customer that he can afford whether it be 10% or 50%. The cash that he threw into Middle Men should would be handy right now. At this point I am just hoping that he didn't treat Epass like a bank and take a loan from his own company to finance something else. The "deficiencies" Visa mentioned in a statement is what worried me. Was it a cash deficiency or an operations/security/whatever deficiency? The fact that Epass isn't mentioning it is what worries me.